England XV for first South Africa test

After watching the premiership final and the England game against the Barbarians, I feel if these players are fit then this must be the starting XV we should pick against South Africa for the first test...

15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tuilagi
12. B.Barritt
11. J.Joseph
10. O.Farrell
09. D.Care
08. B.Morgan
07. C.Robshaw (c)
06. T.Johnson
05. G.Parling
04. M.Botha
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. J.Marler

16. A.Corbisiero
17. J.Gray
18. T.Palmer
19. C.Fearns
20. B.Youngs
21. T.Flood
22. M.Brown

In the front row Marler must be included, he has been in imperious form for Quins this season and would form a very efficient combination with Hartley and Cole. I'd have Corbisiero and Gray on the bench, who have both impressed this season.

At lock, Parling deserves to keep his place, whilst I would expect Botha to carry on in the enforcer role. The bench is a more difficult decision, I'd have Palmer to cover for the first test for his experience, however if Launchberry impresses for the midweek side, I would expect to see him come in to contention for a bench spot for the second test.

I haven't included Haskell in the back row, because I heard he is not in contention to feature in the first test. Previously, I would have selected Fearns to start at 6, however Johnson seriously impressed me today and I feel he deserves a chance at test level and to wave the flag for Exeter. Robshaw has impressed both domestically and internationally, whilst I hope Morgan is fit for the first test as he had a fine six nations.

At half back, Farrell who struggled at 12 today looked much more composed when he moved back to fly half and is the current incumbent. If Flood is announced fit, I would like to see him eased in from the bench and pushing for a starting spot for the second test. Care outplayed Youngs yesterday and on form deserves to start the first test, with Youngs shifting to the bench. No place for Lee Dickson or Charlie Hodgson who weren't great today.

In the centres, I'd move Barritt back to his more comfortable position of 12 and bring Tuilagi straight back into the side at 13.

In the back three, Foden and Ashton are certainties, however the left wing spot is very much open for contention. Joseph, Wade, Strettle and Monye all have a chance of winning the spot. I was very impressed with Joseph when he came on today and feel he did enough to warrant a place in the test team with his elusive running and solid defence, Wade was impressive in patches but may be a little too raw just yet. Brown is unlucky not to start, but would remain a bench option.

Thoughts?

Fine apart from the typo at 10. Flood with one leg has more talent than Farrell.

Totally agree Barnie....Farrel showed today he is MILES behind Flood...even just basics liike 2 on ones...he was attrocious at.

10 Flood
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi (with JJ getting game time)

That's pretty much your 6 Nations team except for Croft isn't it?

biltongbek wrote:That's pretty much your 6 Nations team except for Croft isn't it?

Pretty much, the additions are Joe Marler, Tom Johnson and Jon Joseph.

Joseph looks quite elusive, I didn't watch the whole barbarian match as I fell asleep before the match started, of thing is certain though, England will meet a Springbok team that has a lot more intensity and physicality

I also saw the Barbarian Scrum have a few very powerful ones.

If Flood is fit, then he would have to start infront Farrel.

Brown to start at full back. Foden on the bench. Tualaghi did not look all that good yesterday maybe Flood, Barret, Joseph, Tualaghi on the bench.

I'd much rather Flood than Farrell starting at 10. He is far more attacking and gets the back line moving far better than Farrell.

majesticimperialman wrote:If Flood is fit, then he would have to start infront Farrel.

Brown to start at full back. Foden on the bench. Tualaghi did not look all that good yesterday maybe Flood, Barret, Joseph, Tualaghi on the bench.

I agree, I would really like to see what Flood, Barritt and Joseph can do in attack, and they're pretty good in defence too.

I reckon this is the team Heyneke Meyer will put out.

Beast Mtiwarira
Bismarck du Plessis
Jannie du Plessis
Flip v d Merwe
Andries Bekker
Marcell Coetzee
Willem Alberts
Pierre Spies

Fourie du Preez
Morne Steyn
Bryan Habana
Jean de Villiers
Juan de Jongh
Jp Pietersen
Patrick Lambie

Bench

Coenie Oosthuizen
Chilliboy Ralapelle ( should really be Adriaan Strauss)
Eben Etzebeth
Juandre Kruger
Francois Hougaard
Lwasi Mvovo
Go Aplon

I'd like to see something like this for the first test for England:

1.Corbisiero
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha
5.Parling
6.Robshaw
7.Fearns
8.Morgan

9.Care
10.Flood
11.Joseph
12.Barritt
13.Tuilagi (maybe Joseph with Wade or Strettle at 11)
14.Ashton
15.Brown

I see Racing lost which would mean Fran's Steyn will be available

Biltong, I'm guessing you would rather Frans Steyn than Jean De Villiers at 12?

Yes Zander, de Villiers at 13 for experience in defensive organisation and leadership.

Fran's Steyn was electric in the world cup at 12

I remember when the Boks playes Australia in the quater final at the World Cup. Whenever Steyn had the ball, he always seemed to break the Australian defensive line. He would be a real weapon that South Africa could use against the English.

Zander you thinking of our pool games, he injured his shoulder in our last pool game vs Samoa.

If we had him instead of JdV in that qf we would have been the victors, I said when he was injured we won't win the QF.

Oh, my mistake. It was still a very closely fought QF though.

I really hope Farrell does not start against the Boks, the boy offers NOTHING in attack. He never fixes his man prefering to shift the ball rather than pass.

We will not beat the game at their game, if fit Flood has to start, he is on a different planet to Farrell.

That looks a very conservative 'boks side Biltong. As an England fan I'd be pleased to see some of those guys picked. I assume that's what you expect Mayer to do, rather than a side you'd pick yourself?

As for England, I have to agree with most of what r4e said in the OP.

Loosehead could go either way but neither choice would weaken the side, I'll be happy with whoever starts and the other guy on the bench. Corbs can cover TH so not having a specialist on the bench wouldn't matter too much. Cole has the fitness to play a full 80 anyway so barring injury it wouldn't be a problem. Hartley and Cole are undoubted starters.

Second row is a big weakness this tour with Lawes, Attwood and Garvey not travelling. I'd agree with Parling for lineout ability. Botha looked better today but I don't think he has the game to stand out at international level, far too clumsy and not strong enough to be the enforcer. As a stop gap he seems the most likely option. Hopefully Launchbury can make an impression for the midweek team and maybe get a shot in a later test.

6 is quite open but Johnson was impressive today, I'd agree with giving him a shot. Injuries to Croft and Wood mean we'll be without our best back row anyway. If Haskell is available I'd go with him but I have also heard he might not be available for the first test. Not so sure about Fearns. He has potential but I've never noticed him do a lot for Bath, where he is consistently outshone by Francois Louw, while today he was fairly absent. I'd agree Robshaw and Morgan are nailed on barring any fitness issues.

The centres look settled. Barritt is an outstanding defender and until someone more creative steps up he'll have the shirt. I'd like to see Allen given a chance but it's unlikely to happen. Manu has been average for Leicester but he's the most destructive runner we have. Hopefully Catt will work with him and develop his passing and decision making.

Left wing is also open. Wade had his moments in attack but also looked completely lost at times. I'm not sure he's ready for another step up just yet. Joseph looked impressive but he should be looking to specialise at 13. It could well come down to who looks sharpest in training, and given Lancaster's conservative approach so far I wouldn't be surprised to see Strettle there. Ashton and Foden are certainties, anyone who thinks otherwise is mad. Both world-class players.

That leaves the biggest talking point: the half-backs. I think scrum half is an area of strength now that Care is back involved. Dickson performed well in the 6N but I think Care and Youngs have far more talent and are both game changers. I would not be disappointed with either starting. I think if I were choosing I'd go with Youngs for the speed of pass and Care for impact off the bench. At 10 I would select Farrell every time. I've never been a fan of Flood, far too indecisive, throws 50/50 balls a lot and has been made to look good in the past by guys like Youngs and Ashton. He's played well for Leicester but I think he is a poor international player. Farrell was rubbish at 12 today but he isn't really a centre and Hodgson had a shocker inside him. Once he moved to 10 he looked far more comfortable and showed some nice touches in the tight an a few good wide, flat passes as well. He has the superior kicking game, out of hand and off the tee, and is by far the better defender.

Zander wrote:Oh, my mistake. It was still a very closely fought QF though.

Sadly it should never have been close.

jeffwinger wrote:That looks a very conservative boks side Biltong. As an England fan I'd be pleased to see that some of those guys picked. I assume that's what you expect Mayer to do, rather than a side you'd pick.

Jeffwinger, I understand why Meyer will go conservative. To be honest I don't mind that he does this against England, as they play a similar style to us and although they will improve their attacking nous over the next few years, they aren't there yet.

Having said that I believe this is the year Meyer should use to change the culture of the team.

I accept it is risky to change from an experienced team to one with a good number of newbies, but I think this year would be worth the risk, as it gives us time to develop.

I would like to see this pack

Beast, Bismarck, Jannie, Etzebeth, Bekker, Marcell Coetzee, Albert's and Josh Strauss.

I'll have Coenie Oosthuizen, Juandre Kruger, Adriaan Strauss and Spies on the bench.

Back line

Hougaard, Lambie, F Steyn, Habana/Pietersen at 13, Mvovo at 11, Habana/Pietersen at 14 and More Steyn at 15.

It will be interesting to see who fits better into 13, between Habana and Pietersen, from what I have seen I think Pietersen next to F Steyn will be incredible.

Back line bench, de Villiers, Dewaldt Duvenhage and Aplon

I think people are a little too ready to replace Corbisiero. Marler is looking good but Corbisiero has earned the shirt and has shown he can cut it at international level. I am sure that Marler will cut it too, but he should wait until he shows he is a better option than Corbs.

When I look at that team, it isn't really that devoid of experience, but rather reshuffling the back line to what I believe will be more effective in attack

I can see how conservatism will work for you in this series Biltong. I expect us to play a very negative game and you'll outdo us in that sort of slugfest. Would it not be more beneficial looking forward to select the long term options? These games will be the opportunity to get a side settled for the 3N and I don't think a war of attrition will be the way to win that competition this year.

Cumbrian wrote:I think people are a little too ready to replace Corbisiero. Marler is looking good but Corbisiero has earned the shirt and has shown he can cut it at international level. I am sure that Marler will cut it too, but he should wait until he shows he is a better option than Corbs.

I would have said stick with Corbs, too, until I realised he hasn't played in two months. On that basis, there may be more risk going with him than with Marler. I also think Marler might be more the personality you need to face a Saffa scrum.

Hence my new look back line.

Hougaard, Lambie and F Steyn, are all very good at hitting the gap, Hougaard is very quick off the mark, in my opinion quicker than what Joost was, Lambie will hit a clean line and distributes very, very well, Frans Steyn, may be Bruiser, but has deft touches and a very good offload. At 13 we don't have a decent runner that can offload, Pietersen is still very young and a move now will see him becoe very successful there, he is similar to Jaque Fourie and looks for the support runner.

That half back pairing and midfield will provide a formidable defence.

Mvovo is the form winger for Sa in the Super xv, Habana is still a great player, he just needs to see more ball in space, More Steyn can fill the gap this year at 15, until Johan Goose can fit into 10 next year with Lambie at 15 who can interchange with him at 10 for variation.

There are some youngsters up and coming that can be tested as impact players in the near future, but in my view Habana,m Pietersen and F Steyn are all still our best options until otherwise proven

Ive noticed that Corbs is over a stone heavier than Marler...do you think that makes any difference at int level.. or not a tot?

Is Ben Morgan fit?

I thought Dowson might be getting a run out as he might be needed as cover. Guess that Waldron or Easter would be the other options?

robshaw4england wrote:After watching the premiership final and the England game against the Barbarians, I feel if these players are fit then this must be the starting XV we should pick against South Africa for the first test...

15. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
13. M.Tuilagi
12. B.Barritt
11. J.Joseph
10. O.Farrell
09. D.Care
08. B.Morgan
07. C.Robshaw (c)
06. T.Johnson
05. G.Parling
04. M.Botha
03. D.Cole
02. D.Hartley
01. J.Marler

16. A.Corbisiero
17. J.Gray
18. T.Palmer
19. C.Fearns
20. B.Youngs
21. T.Flood
22. M.Brown

Mainly agree except:

As discussed elsewhere if you drop Corbs, who has performed well for England, for Marler, who has performed well for his club side, I think you are sending a very confusing message. Marler will get his chance when Corbs is injured or has a poor game.

Farrell at 10 is almost certain - Flood hasn't played for weeks and SL ignored him when he was fit tomwards the end of the 6 Nations. Still, 10, 12, 13 has remarkably little distributing ability and Tuilagi looks very ordinary for Tigers at present. I'd stick him on the wing (apparently SL has discussed the possibility) and bring the more talented footballer, JJ, in at 13.

I still don't like having a specialist FB on the bench, but it's difficult to say Brown doesn't deserve to be there.

Well in terms of club performances Marler's season has been in a different league to Corbisiero, but I've heard that corbs didn't have the best tighthead backing him up, and he has always done well for England.

I understand the argument that away to the Boks may not be the best debut environment for a 21 yr old prop, but I'd hope that Marler will be in the shirt by this time next year. Great talent and you can tell how competitive he is.