South Africa vs England 2nd Test - Teams and Live match thread

[robshaw4england]

Edit: Actual squads added to OP for reference
South Africa vs England
2nd test, Ellis Park, Johannesburg (capacity 62,500)

South Africa
Pat Lambie, JP Pietersen, Jean de Villiers (capt), Francois Steyn, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Francois Hougaard, Pierre Spies, Willem Alberts, Marcell Coetzee, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.
Reserves: Adriaan Strauss, Werner Kruger, Flip van der Merwe, Keegan Daniel, Ruan Pienaar, Wynand Olivier, Bjorn Basson.

Only changes are due to injuries to Zane Kirchner and Coenie Oosthuizen - Lambie starts at fullback, with Basson and Kruger on the bench.

Weather: Sunny, should be around 10deg C for kickoff http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/993800


England: 15 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
14 Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
13 Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
12 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
11 David Strettle (Saracens)
10 Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
4 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
6 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
7 Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Replacements
16 Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
17 Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
18 Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
19 Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
20 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
21 Owen Farrell (Saracens)
22 Alex Goode (Saracens)

Tour Previews:
http://www.v2journal.com/the-south-african-perspective-on-englands-summer-tour.html
http://www.v2journal.com/englands-summer-tour.html

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

[Biltong]

Questions.

Would Joseph not be better at 12 than Tuilgi, he seems to me to be a more creative player and surely a better distributor than Tuilagi?

Will Lancaster call Haskell up?

[maestegmafia]

I think Allen would be a better twelve for Tuilagi than Barritt, Farrell or Joseph.

[majesticimperialman]

Is their no other winger avalible for England other than Foden?

I dont like the idea of Foden and Brown on at the same time. They are both Full Backs, so one should start and the other should come off the bench.

I would probaly like to see Tualaghi on the bench with some one like Joseph or ?????? who else is their who can play in the centre?

I do believe that Lancaster will make changes for next week. So lets not condemm Lancaster untill after the series hell we?

[Zander]

I have to say Joseph has a very good pass off both hands from what I have seen during the Aviva Premeirship although I could understand if Lancaster choses to go with Allen.

Biltong, Haskell is in the squad although not in the matchday squad due to jetlag so hopefully we will see him in the second test.

I would like to see:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Joseph (If he is at 12 then possible Foden with Brown at fullback, i'm not sure...)
12. Allen (hopefully Joseph)
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

[ChequeredJersey]

12 has to be Allen if Barritt is injured. Partnerships and all that...

[Zander]

There is a chance it could be 9. Youngs 10. Flood 12. Allen 13. Tuilagi. All Leicester Tigers, the most attacking team in the Aviva Premiership!

[ChequeredJersey]

Yep, with Care and JJ to break things up even more off the bench. We can't beat SA at their own game, but we can run them off their feet. Find the gaps.

[Zander]

Who on the wing though ... Stick with Foden, or would he be better at fullback?

[ChequeredJersey]

Stick with Foden. The experiment wasn't a failure and why do it for just one game? That tells us little and less

[BigTrevsbigmac]

9) Care
10) Flood
11) Foden
12) Tuilagi
13) Joseph
14) Ashton
15) Brown

Palmer and Haskell to start up front

Wade on the bench

[TJ1]

Stick with Foden. The experiment wasn't a failure and why do it for just one game? That tells us little and less

Was he not out of position for the SA try?

[Zander]

9) Care
10) Flood
11) Foden
12) Tuilagi
13) Joseph
14) Ashton
15) Brown

Palmer and Haskell to start up front

But from looking at the stats from today's game, Tuilagi didn't make a single pass. Will the ball even get to Joseph with Tuilagi inside of him. Maybe have Joseph at 12, Tuilagi at 13 although I don't know if Joseph has ever played at 12. The rest looks good though.

[EnglishReign]

1. Corbs
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Wade
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph
14. Ashton
15. Foden

[timhen]

There is a chance it could be 9. Youngs 10. Flood 12. Allen 13. Tuilagi. All Leicester Tigers, the most attacking team in the Aviva Premiership!

That didn't top the league or win the final.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

9) Care
10) Flood
11) Foden
12) Tuilagi
13) Joseph
14) Ashton
15) Brown

Palmer and Haskell to start up front

But from looking at the stats from today's game, Tuilagi didn't make a single pass. Will the ball even get to Joseph with Tuilagi inside of him. Maybe have Joseph at 12, Tuilagi at 13 although I don't know if Joseph has ever played at 12. The rest looks good though.

miss passes from Flood and 2nd,3rd + phase ball

[ChequeredJersey]

Stick with Foden. The experiment wasn't a failure and why do it for just one game? That tells us little and less

Was he not out of position for the SA try?

Possibly, but that doesn't make it a failure does it?

[anotherworldofpain]

Tuilagi at 12 is essential to take away the pressure from 10 and give a carry option. But is also important to work on distribution with him. He is similar talent to Ma'a Nonu and now Nonu is one of the best distributor in the game.

[LondonTiger]

But from looking at the stats from today's game, Tuilagi didn't make a single pass. Will the ball even get to Joseph with Tuilagi inside of him. Maybe have Joseph at 12, Tuilagi at 13 although I don't know if Joseph has ever played at 12. The rest looks good though.

then the stats are wrong. First ball Manu got was passed to th ewinger. After that not many passes if any, but moire often than not due to no support runners.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha
5.Parling
6.Johnson
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Foden
12.Barritt/Tuilagi (if not fit)
13.Tuilagi/Joseph(if not fit)
14.Ashton
15.Brown

Thought the Back 3 went well, Brown immense under the high ball and Foden finished well. I think it probably isnt the future for the back 3 but for this series and these opponents it is the best option. Obviously there was a lack of creativity in midfield and Flood hopefully will improve this. Both centres were immense physically and if Tuilagi gets the right service I think he can make more breaks. Haskell should be on the bench though Johnson played well and Morgan is an important carrier and a proper no8.

[robbo277]

I felt that England really used Tuilagi to bash it up in the midfield. There was nothing subtle about that game plan. Tuilagi didn't pass it out because that wasn't the plan. However, whether the game plan was set like that because the coaches believe Manu to be too limited a player is another matter.

Personally I'd go for the Leicester Tigers midfield with the same back three. I'd consider replacing Botha (before realising that Lawes is injured and Attwood is at home) and put Haskell on the bench. If Corbisiero can come through 50-60 good minutes midweek he'd be back in the starting line-up for me as well, with Marler moving to the bench.

[LondonTiger]

I felt that England really used Tuilagi to bash it up in the midfield. There was nothing subtle about that game plan. Tuilagi didn't pass it out because that wasn't the plan. However, whether the game plan was set like that because the coaches believe Manu to be too limited a player is another matter.

I felt this was the gameplan due to the speed and accuracy of the handling inside him from 8-12, so it was the only way the felt they could get front foot ball.

Tigers when playing well use him in a very different way. I felt that as a team we needed to try and play a quicker offloading game, but there were never any support runners.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

I felt that England really used Tuilagi to bash it up in the midfield. There was nothing subtle about that game plan. Tuilagi didn't pass it out because that wasn't the plan. However, whether the game plan was set like that because the coaches believe Manu to be too limited a player is another matter.

I felt this was the gameplan due to the speed and accuracy of the handling inside him from 8-12, so it was the only way the felt they could get front foot ball.

Tigers when playing well use him in a very different way. I felt that as a team we needed to try and play a quicker offloading game, but there were never any support runners.

We need to stop relying on our forwards to gain us momentum we dont have the back. We need to play slightly more expansively and find some creativity in the centres to make breaks and get behind the boks.

[flankertye]

I'd go

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Botha (Ideally Garvey)
Parling
Johnson
Robshaw
Haskell
Youngs
flood
ashton
barritt
tuilagi
foden
brown

[HQ matt]

im not sure personnel changes are going to make a huge difference, england competed v well for 40mins but the SA pack got on top of them in the 2nd 40 and england had little to work with. morgan did look a little off the pace though so perhaps haskell may feature from the start, apart from that i cant see there being any changes in the pack.

the scrum is worrying as not once were england able to use it as an attacking platform and were fighting just to not get turned over. if they cant improve the scrum its is going to be nigh on impossible to win a test in this series.

the scrum has to improve and so does the kicking, less of it preferably, particularly from youngs at the base. farrell is in as a kicking 10 let him kick, he has a great range of kicks, more chips and grubbers keep the sa defence guessing. the only changes i forsee in the backs will be the result of injury to barritt.

[wales606]

As an impartial

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw (c)
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Strettle/Wade
12. Josephs
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

I think thats your best chance of a W.

[pbuk0]

my team would be;

1- Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Palmer ( I wish Laws/ Garvey/ Attwood were available as they would give England more grunt)
5. Parling
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan ( Johnson to replace at 50 mins).
9. Care ( Best scrum half in UK)
10. Flood ( England need more from a FH than place kicking)
11. Foden
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph ( Cutting edge required )
14. Ashton
15. Brown.

16. Gray ( Mears too light weight and having him on bench is waste at his age)
17. Corbs
18. Botha
19. Johnson
20. Youngs
21. Farrell
22. Wade ( has pace to change the game)

[freeman lowell]

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. joseph
12. Tuiagi
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. care

08. haskell
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. johnson
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. morgan (Exeter)
20. youngs (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. allen (Irish)

[george doors]

15. M.Brown (Quins)
14. C.Ashton (Saints)
13. M.Tuilagi (Leicester)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens)
11. B.Foden (Saints)
10. T.Flood (Leicester)
09. B.Youngs (Leicester)

08. B.Morgan (Gloucester)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins)
06. J.Haskell (Wasps)
05. G.Parling (Leicester)
04. M.Botha (Saracens)
03. D.Cole (Leicester)
02. D.Hartley (Saints)
01. A.Corbisiero (Irish)

16. J.Marler (Quins)
17. J.Gray (Quins)
18. T.Palmer (Wasps)
19. T.Johnson (Exeter)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. O.Farrell (Saracens)
22. J.Joseph (Irish)

*If Brad Barritt is unable to play next week then I would start Tuilagi at inside and have Joseph at outside, with Turner-Hall or Allen coming onto the bench.

With Flood back at 10, England will be able to exploit his partnership with Youngs and get the best out of our centres in attack. He will also help to bring Foden, Ashton and Brown into the line with his strong passing game. Farrell looked completely out of his depth in attack today.

I'd bring Haskell in for his ball carrying ability and physicality to match the springboks. Johnson impressed me today, however he may suit coming on as an impact sub later in the game.

If Corbisiero is fit and firing I'd start him ahead of Marler simply because of Corbisiero's impressive scrummaging and form in the six nations. Marler went well today, but he is still learning and could make a huge impact off of the bench.

Thoughts?

Wow, I am glad your not the England coach

[yappysnap]

I think we'll see lancaster keep the pack the same for the second test. The only possible change being Corbs starting with Marler benched.

1. Corbs/Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. Johnson
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

We had the better of the first half but couldn't put points on the board to make it count so it's in the backs where the changes need to come. Not too many though and i'd only make two. Flood for Farrel as at the moment Farrel looks like a poor int fly half. Then Allan in for Barritt.

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Foden
12. Allan
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

Hopefully again we'll get parity and/or the edge in the first half, WE MUST SCORE in the first 40. Go in to the break with a lead and force SA to catch us, that then leaves the last 20 for Farrel and Care to come on to help defend the lead and kick any points that're going. Finally bring on Joseph as the game breaks up to keep running the ball back at them.

[thomh]

Lancaster said publicly that Marler would have started even if Corbisiero was fit, and then described Marler's performance as outstanding after the game. I don't see why he would drop him now.

[Geordie]

It doesnt matter what changes....we are too underpowered.

[TJ1]

I am not familiar with all the england players but the main area why england got beaten was the lack of speed and penetration in the attacks so its 9, 10, 12, 13 that needs to be looked at with the intention of getting some speed and creativity in

[thomh]

Well we were yesterday, but it's still a very young team and they could turn it around. Australia have a less powerful pack than us and still manage to regularly beat South Africa, so I don't think the situation is hopeless. If we can play the territory better and secure set piece ball then it will give us more of a shot at it. Easier said than done of course.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

It doesnt matter what changes....we are too underpowered.

Disagree if Aus can win in SA with their pack we can too. We just have to be smarter with how we use the ball if that is possible to do is a completely different question.

[thomh]

TJ I'm not sure that's true. For 20 crucial minutes in the second half we just didn't have any territory or possession. That's what needs to be looked at I think.

[yappysnap]

It doesnt matter what changes....we are too underpowered.

Exactly, we can compete for a while but just don't have the power and physicality to sit the Boks down on their behinds for a moment.

Sadly the players that could help here are either injured or at home which is baffling.

[Biltong]

Well we were yesterday, but it's still a very young team and they could turn it around. Australia have a less powerful pack than us and still manage to regularly beat South Africa, so I don't think the situation is hopeless. If we can play the territory better and secure set piece ball then it will give us more of a shot at it. Easier said than done of course.

hopefully that is about to change very soon.

[yappysnap]

It doesnt matter what changes....we are too underpowered.

Disagree if Aus can win in SA with their pack we can too. We just have to be smarter with how we use the ball if that is possible to do is a completely different question.

But when Oz win in SA they do over power the Boks as a collective and then always score when they have the chance. We can't seem to do either at the moment.

[maestegmafia]

Oz has a good pack...! Watch yesterday's game with Wales, Oz were fantastic.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

It doesnt matter what changes....we are too underpowered.

Disagree if Aus can win in SA with their pack we can too. We just have to be smarter with how we use the ball if that is possible to do is a completely different question.

But when Oz win in SA they do over power the Boks as a collective and then always score when they have the chance. We can't seem to do either at the moment.

I think what they do is get in behind the boks with their backplay, with the midfield actually creating breaks and as you said they are phenomenally clinical. Of course we arent going to get near the heights of Australia. But there were moments when even our fowards when they didnt just hit one out everytime into the springboks we made yards. Johnson to Morgan was a noticeable example. If we do this a bit more and make maybe one break in the midfield we are in with a much greater chance.

[thomh]

Of course they have a very good pack but it's not a physical one in the way the South Africa's is. Even if you disagree with that, you only have to wind it back a couple of years to when they very much did not have a physical pack, and they were still perfectly capable of beating South Africa.

[maestegmafia]

Of course they have a very good pack but it's not a physical one in the way the South Africa's is. Even if you disagree with that, you only have to wind it back a couple of years to when they very much did not have a physical pack, and they were still perfectly capable of beating South Africa.

True but the pack were not the reason England lost. Yes they were out played in many areas by SA but it was from 9 to 14 where England's biggest problems were. That backline is not working and hasn't done in six matches.

The larger problem is that there aren't alternatives, yes flood would make a huge difference but there aren't really any alternatives to the other players in the backline on tour or at home.

[ChequeredJersey]

There are: Allen, Care, JJ, Lowe, Wade are all different players in form!

[DaveM]

JJ is a winger and an OC - you cannot possibly start him at 12 away in SA. His elusive running would be wasted and frankly he'd be smashed all over the place at this point in his career.

Move Tuilagi inside, and play JJ at 13. Flood can miss Tuilagi out if he wants to spread it wide and this gives England two genuine attacking threats in the centres of differing types. We will get over the gainline, one way or the other.

[thomh]

Of course they have a very good pack but it's not a physical one in the way the South Africa's is. Even if you disagree with that, you only have to wind it back a couple of years to when they very much did not have a physical pack, and they were still perfectly capable of beating South Africa.

True but the pack were not the reason England lost. Yes they were out played in many areas by SA but it was from 9 to 14 where England's biggest problems were. That backline is not working and hasn't done in six matches.

The larger problem is that there aren't alternatives, yes flood would make a huge difference but there aren't really any alternatives to the other players in the backline on tour or at home.

I'm not sure I'd say that the pack weren't the reason England lost. While individually I thought the pack all did well, in the second half they looked knackered and we had no platform. The kicking game at 9 and 10 may have been a big part of that, but I don't think that the central problem yesterday was our attacking options. That said, Flood does need to start.

[Manu's Boxing Coach]

Of course they have a very good pack but it's not a physical one in the way the South Africa's is. Even if you disagree with that, you only have to wind it back a couple of years to when they very much did not have a physical pack, and they were still perfectly capable of beating South Africa.

True but the pack were not the reason England lost. Yes they were out played in many areas by SA but it was from 9 to 14 where England's biggest problems were. That backline is not working and hasn't done in six matches.

The larger problem is that there aren't alternatives, yes flood would make a huge difference but there aren't really any alternatives to the other players in the backline on tour or at home.

I'm not sure I'd say that the pack weren't the reason England lost. While individually I thought the pack all did well, in the second half they looked knackered and we had no platform. The kicking game at 9 and 10 may have been a big part of that, but I don't think that the central problem yesterday was our attacking options. That said, Flood does need to start.

Tweaks do need to be made to the pack to fully counteract Alberts and co but if we seriously want to win this series we need to start making changes to the midfield not only in personnel. We have to stop just using Manu as a battering ram as our main midfield move.

[yappysnap]

Wasn't Tuilagi a shadow of himself when he played 12 last for Eng and Tigers?

[thomh]

Not sure he's ever played there for England and I think when he last played there for Tigers it was while they were struggling to regain form post-world cup.

[Geordie]

IS the next game at Altitude? Could be a painful day at the office next week.

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