Who should start at 10 for England against South Africa?

According to ESPN Toby Flood got through a whole day of training for England today and apparently looked sharp and injury free. Who do you think should start for England in the first test? Bare in mind the performances of Hodgson and Farrell at the weekend.

I think Farrel, I never rated Hodgson, and Flood looks busy but that's all.

Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger

Mods - can you sort out the poll please, some joker has put in Farrell's name.

farrel will start

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Mods - can you sort out the poll please, some joker has put in Farrell's name.

It will remain there barney, I am voting for him.

It's got to be a fully fit and sharp Flood for me. He has the ability to get the best out of the backline with his passing game, whilst his partnership with Youngs is something England should exploit.

Farrell on the bench though, to offer stability and reliability from the tee towards the end of the game. (Saying that he missed a couple of sitters against the BaaBaa's)

If Flood is fit then i would like Flood to start with Hodgson on the bench.

If this was put up just after the 6ns, then i would of siad Farrel should start.
But Farrel had a mare against the Babaas. So if Flood is fit, then Flood should start for me.

Morne Steyn should start. Biltong will do the paperwork for you.

i didnt see the baa baa game so i didnt realise he had a mare or not- thing is and no i havent wathed much of the AP so i dont know his club form he did have 5 good 6 nations games on the spin- so i am not sure how we can kick him out

Mind you I do have some advise for Flood:

STOP GETTING INJURED YOU RSE

I've said for a while that to beat SA, ENG have to compete with the boks strong territorial kicking game.

Now that it looks that Fioure Du Preez will captain the side you will probably have a backline of the following

Du Preez
Morne Steyn
Habana
Frans Steyn
Jean De Villiers
Ndugane
Lambie

In that above team you have 4 class kickers in Du Preez, Morne, Frans and Lambie.

If ENG go into the match with just Farrell they will be torn apart.

From that its clear they need to play Flood and Farrell together at 10 & 12 just to give ENG options and a chance in the series.

Neither their scrumhalves nor their fullback are kickers.

FA, why do you think Pietersen won't be selected?

BB

I think that there are a number of reasons why I fancy Ndugane to be selected ahead of Aplon and Pietersen....

He's from the bulls... the most obvious one.
He's actually been playing quite well this season IMO... more than his useful, do ok and collect his pay cheque at the end month.
and most of all... he's probably the only African with a chance of starting.... it will make the puppet masters a little happier.

If there is little difference between the above 3, I imagine Meyer may choose Ndugane.
On planet sanity, Pietersen would obviously be wearing the jersey but we all know we're light years away from there!

Farrell for me. I've never been a fan a Flood and Hodgson is a definate no no. To me Flood has only ever looked comfortable behind a dominant pack, when Youngs is having a blinder and Ashton is picking clever lines off him. Any 10 in the world would have looked good then. All the talk of his passing being brilliant is pure hyperbole, he throws a dodgy 50/50 looper for every decent flat pass and he is constantly crabbing sideways. Flood's kicking is average and his defence is weak. Against any sort of resistance he hides away and shovels rubbish along the back line.

Farrell played poorly at 12 outside the dire Hodgson, but he was quite impressive when he moved to 10. He is an outstanding defender and a very good kicker. He isn't a very attacking selection but he is the best option for now. With either Care or Youngs at 9 keeping the SA back row honest, Farrell with have a bit more time on the ball than he did during the 6N and he wont have any problem shifting it through the hands or finding a strike runner. People read far too much into this supposed issue. He can pass perfectly well, but he is frequently instructed to stick to a negative game plan which is up to the coaches and isn't his fault.

Until someone like Ford or Burns steps up to the next level Farrell will be the only sensible choice at 10.

fa0019 wrote:BB

I think that there are a number of reasons why I fancy Ndugane to be selected ahead of Aplon and Pietersen....

He's from the bulls... the most obvious one.
He's actually been playing quite well this season IMO... more than his useful, do ok and collect his pay cheque at the end month.
and most of all... he's probably the only African with a chance of starting.... it will make the puppet masters a little happier.

If there is little difference between the above 3, I imagine Meyer may choose Ndugane.
On planet sanity, Pietersen would obviously be wearing the jersey but we all know we're light years away from there!

Which Ndungane brother had that booboo this weekend with missing that kick and conceded a try?

I am pretty sure it was Bulls Ndungane,

fa0019 wrote:I've said for a while that to beat SA, ENG have to compete with the boks strong territorial kicking game.

Now that it looks that Fioure Du Preez will captain the side you will probably have a backline of the following

Du Preez
Morne Steyn
Habana
Frans Steyn
Jean De Villiers
Ndugane
Lambie

In that above team you have 4 class kickers in Du Preez, Morne, Frans and Lambie.

If ENG go into the match with just Farrell they will be torn apart.

From that its clear they need to play Flood and Farrell together at 10 & 12 just to give ENG options and a chance in the series.

Neither their scrumhalves nor their fullback are kickers.

Really?
Looks like the backline of 2009.

May be ok against England but geez that 9/10 combo will let them down poorly.

Steyn against the Chiefs last week was so ineffective other than shots at goal that he'll kill the backline as he did then.

Good 12,13 though and Lambie wont get much of a look in as he'll be defending all day.


Fourie's from another era and wont match it with todays 9's.

jeffwinger

Just a question.... would you feel confident/comfortable placing a 20yr old with 5 caps up against Du Preez, Morne & Frans Steyn and Lambie????

In terms of ball to hand he doesn't have the accuracy of Du Preez or Morne nor the range of Frans. Everytime ENG kick the ball, within 15 seconds they will be where they were again minus 15 metres and probably in a far tighter corner.

Unless he plays the perfect game for 270mins, with one kicker and that kicker being Farrell I see ENG getting destroyed in all 3 matches.

I've always felt you need to play to your opposition and give youself the best chance of competing/victory.

[quote="biltongbek"]

fa0019 wrote:BB

I think that there are a number of reasons why I fancy Ndugane to be selected ahead of Aplon and Pietersen....

He's from the bulls... the most obvious one.
He's actually been playing quite well this season IMO... more than his useful, do ok and collect his pay cheque at the end month.
and most of all... he's probably the only African with a chance of starting.... it will make the puppet masters a little happier.

If there is little difference between the above 3, I imagine Meyer may choose Ndugane.
On planet sanity, Pietersen would obviously be wearing the jersey but we all know we're light years away from there!

Probably only african to start? Cmon now is there any need to start all this. Mvovo is the best winger in South africa by a country mile.Although i would expect Basson to be ahead of AKona in the pecking order seeing as he;s younger and the better aerial player . Saying that , would be fun watching watching the England back 3 trying to defuse bombs from 4 kickers and Basson

Taylorman

Thats not my backline but the backline I think Meyer will pick.

Its almost confirmed that Fourie Du Preez will be named as captain for the season. Morne is Mr dependable and Meyer always chooses the best kicker at 10.

In terms of the wings... Habana is the obvious choice at 11. Basson is a little suspect in defence and whilst I'd choose Mvovo I think Habana's overall game will see him through.
Ndugane may sneek it against Pietersen for reasons stated earlier... but don't be surprised if either them or Aplon play.

Centres.... the backline lacks a little leadership and Jean De Villiers looks likely get one of those spots.. probably 13 (against Tuilagi and with it being the toughest defensive position in the backline I can't see Meyer experimenting). I can't see Meyer ignoring Lambie either.. he's awesome at the moment.

and the final spot must go to Frans Steyn... the boy is SA's golden boy.

During the PDV SA won 63% of their 49 games... Frans played 31 of those.... of which they won 71%.

When you look at the 30 games where they played either AUS, NZ, ENG or FRA it gets even more clear....Frans played 19 of those, SA won 58%. In the other 11, SA won just 27%. Thats a 30% difference. When the boy plays for SA against the above, SA have a more than likely chance of winning... when he doesn't they barely win 1 in 4.

@Fa0019 you left out another interesting stat about Frans Steyn. The Boks have never lost a world Cup game he's played in ..And he's played in 11 world cup games if i'm not mistaken

I think England should go for Farrell at 10 Flood at 12 , that might leave them a bit weak in that Channel but Farrell is the future of English Rugby and they need a distributing 12 to partner that beast of a Tuilagi in the 13 jersey

exactly... and if he had played SA would have certainly beaten AUS IMO and it would have been 50/50 call in the SF.

The lad is a genius... probably the best player in SA and has been since 09. If I was a coach and could have any player in the world... I'd chose Frans Steyn. Carter, McCaw, Pocock et al are all replaceable.... no one offers what Frans can do.

I'd rather have Flood starting as he is the more attacking prospect however if he is not up to match fitness then there is not point in playing him. In that case we would be better to go with Farrell instead.

Also Bullsbok, Tuilagi might be banned so we might see a different backline.

fa0019 wrote:jeffwinger

Just a question.... would you feel confident/comfortable placing a 20yr old with 5 caps up against Du Preez, Morne & Frans Steyn and Lambie????

In terms of ball to hand he doesn't have the accuracy of Du Preez or Morne nor the range of Frans. Everytime ENG kick the ball, within 15 seconds they will be where they were again minus 15 metres and probably in a far tighter corner.

Unless he plays the perfect game for 270mins, with one kicker and that kicker being Farrell I see ENG getting destroyed in all 3 matches.

I've always felt you need to play to your opposition and give youself the best chance of competing/victory.

I'd feel more confident in a 20 year old who has always risen to a big occasion than a 26 year old who has never done so.

Here's my rational for selecting my flyhalf:
Attack - I'd say neither are great here but for sake of argument I'll give it to Flood.
Defense - Farrell, doubt anyone would argue.
Tactical kicking - Farrell
Place kicking - Farrell
Pressure player - Farrell
Development potential - Farrell

I do see what you're saying regarding the kicking battle, fa. However Youngs is a decent kicker, Foden is perfectly fine from full back, Ashton can field and return long kicks adequately. Anyway if they want to play a kicking game all day we have the talent in the back 3 to counter attack.

Playing Farrell at 12 limits us massively in attack. He is a sufficient attacker for 10 but not 12. It could work if he played with a very strong attacker like Manu but that would be very inexperienced and anyway I can't see Lancaster dropping Barritt and nobody wants to see Farrell and Barritt together in the centres.

By the way I completely agree about Frans Steyn, he is the player I am most concerned about this series and he would walk into this England side at 12.

I think Farrell is reasonable strong in defence actually, I recall seeing him smash Harinordoquy in the 6N... I think he's a bit of a unit just like his da was... well at the beginning his da was a prop so perhaps not that big.

I just want to say this, Neither Flood or Hodgson is going to take England forward, but you are lucky that Lancaster realises this and is investing into Farrel.

Be happy about that, it seems we will be investing in the old guard.

Agreed Biltong, in a season or two I'd like to see Farrell(20), Ford(19) and Burns(21) as the flyhalf options in the England squad.

Another quick point I thought I'd raise while we're on the topic, Wilkinson was never the most perfect passer, and he didn't really worry the opposition with ball in hand, but he did ok. And while Farrell may not be a brilliant attacker in the conventional sense, he has a very good attacking kicking game which is a legitimate weapon, e.g. the chip which JJ scored from in the BaaBaa's game.

jeffwinger wrote:Agreed Biltong, in a season or two I'd like to see Farrell(20), Ford(19) and Burns(21) as the flyhalf options in the England squad.

Another quick point I thought I'd raise while we're on the topic, Wilkinson was never the most perfect passer, and he didn't really worry the opposition with ball in hand, but he did ok. And while Farrell may not be a brilliant attacker in the conventional sense, he has a very good attacking kicking game which is a legitimate weapon, e.g. the chip which JJ scored from in the BaaBaa's game.

If Farrell can make his kicking to Jonny's standard he will be a massive force to be reckoned with and i personally dont understand why he gets bashed on here, i was very impressed by him in the 6N. He;s got balls and BMT and a very solid boot on him . That being said England trying to beat the Boks tactically would be most unwise.

jeffwinger wrote:Agreed Biltong, in a season or two I'd like to see Farrell(20), Ford(19) and Burns(21) as the flyhalf options in the England squad.

Another quick point I thought I'd raise while we're on the topic, Wilkinson was never the most perfect passer, and he didn't really worry the opposition with ball in hand, but he did ok. And while Farrell may not be a brilliant attacker in the conventional sense, he has a very good attacking kicking game which is a legitimate weapon, e.g. the chip which JJ scored from in the BaaBaa's game.

It'll also be interesting to see how Cipriani and Geraghty do on their return to English rugby. At the moment I think FH is quite open.

Farrell has obvious strengths and glaring weaknesses. It was disappointing to hear him say, when asked what part of his game he wanted to work on, "All of it". It's clear Farrell needs to put all his efforts into passing and creativity. He's still young enough that he could become proficient at both, and with his mentality he'd be a serious rival to anyone.

Let's remember, Burn still has things to prove in terms of game management and defence, and I'll only be fully convinced Ford's size won't count against him at international level when we see how he does in an England shirt. Heathcore has a nicely rounded game and is worth keeping an eye on.

Agree with pretty much all of that DaveM.

Cipriani could be in with a shout, he has the talent but it's his application and attitude that will come under the spotlight. And of course his tackling. He might do well at Sale and have a say but to be honest I'll be surprised if he usurps one of these youngsters that England appear to be cultivating.

Geraghty is less likely in my opinion, I doubt he'll be much more than a solid Premiership player, similar to Ryan Lamb.

Ford will need to prove that his size isn't an issue but he appears to read and manage the game so well I don't think it should be.

Burns' game management does need improvement but from an England perspective I'd be more inclined to develop him as an impact sub, coming on after an hour and tearing the game open. His defence isn't that bad at the moment, he has done well at full-back in the past.

Well it has to be Flood and Farrell as first choice...though next season i hope this changes

I like Farrell, he's tough, has a great mentality and for all his lack of experience has played in some big games...premiership final etc....but playing him at centre is an absolute no no for me.

The problem i have with Farrell is the absolute lack of apparent offensive ability.
One move that has been highlighted was the two on one v the Baa baas which he handled very badly...and there are others.

Is this something that he can learn...we'll see?
He has potential and lets see how he goes.

Flood is one who has never fully satisfied...and yet has been at the heart of some of Englands best atticking plays...and seems to bring the best out of Ashton and the backline.

How much of an influence can Catt have on Farrell quickly?

Personally i start the first test with Flood, and barrit at 12.

But lets not forget one major thing....Lancaster would appear to be a BIG fan of Farrell...and that might swing it.

EDIT: Next season with Gopperth relegated to 15 im hoping Joel Hodgson and Tom Catterick show how good they are....

That two-on-one was a bad mistake, but everyone makes mistakes. Flood has made plenty in an England shirt. Later in the BaaBaa's game, Farrell combined really nicely with Hartley and his quick hands put Ashton in for one of his tries in the left corner. This was an example of perfectly good offensive which went largely unnoticed. Another example I highlighted earlier was the chip ahead for JJ. That's 2 legitimate assists in one match.

Ill accept that Jeff...and whilst the baa baas arnt greatly orientated defensively due to their short time together...we still scored 50 points...with Ashton looking alive again...so there was something there.

If he can learn to run the backline...then i do see Farrell as a better player than flood in the future...as the rest of his game is strong...

Time will tell.

I fully expect to see him at 10 in the first test.

I really genuinely hope its not Hodgson...i just feel his time is up.

Definitely not Hodgson. I can't really see why he is touring to be honest. I appreciated the need for a familiar and steady hand to help ease Farrell into test rugby during the 6N, but that job is now done. The place would have been better going to one of the youngsters to get some tour experience and have a run out in the mid-weeks.

sorry jeff i disagree with you there, i see no point in taking a youngster that hasnt earnt the right to the shirt. hodgeson is less likely to make bad decisions at key moments if he comes on in the event of injury.
It would be far better to introduce a young player, who has earnt the shirt, into a team that has performed well on a tour to SA, than take one along for the experience.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
EDIT: Next season with Gopperth relegated to 15 im hoping Joel Hodgson and Tom Catterick show how good they are....

I know Richard's is supposed to have said something along those lines, and I hope it's true, but it's quite a big call and I'll only really believe it when I see it.

I think Jonny Wilkinson play quite useful and should unretired.

nope- no point in that dude- even if he had another year- we are building for the next wc

HQ matt wrote:sorry jeff i disagree with you there, i see no point in taking a youngster that hasnt earnt the right to the shirt. hodgeson is less likely to make bad decisions at key moments if he comes on in the event of injury.
It would be far better to introduce a young player, who has earnt the shirt, into a team that has performed well on a tour to SA, than take one along for the experience.

Fair enough.

I would say Freddie Burns has probably done enough to earn a game or two for the midweek development side.

I understand the point about stepping up to test team in the event of injury, but mitigating for 2 injuries seems a bit unnecessary. Anyway, that's where a young guy could step in and make a name for himself from nowhere. That's touring.

I am very much on the side of development for the future and won't really worry about results too much on this tour if the performances are good, but I do see the advantages of developing a winning habit and bringing youngsters into a winning team.

Either way I doubt this selection will have any real bearing on the outcome of the tests.

mystiroakey wrote:nope- no point in that dude- even if he had another year- we are building for the next wc

To building you must not lose the connection of the experience. Farrell and others younger can learn a much by having him to the camp. Even if he just carrying the water (or switch the balls!) and play mid week.

Id be happy to have him about - no dramas

do we have a warm up match before the first test? If not start farrell at 10. I want to see flood have a match beforehand to show some form

I also rate flood very highly, people seem to have forgotten how threatening England have looked with flood at 10.

They have also looked quite average at times with him there.

Flood is probably the best attacking choice, and the best option if Youngs is preferred at scrum half, but both he and Youngs have looked fragile if the pack is on the back foot.

The interesting question is how Lancaster chooses to use Care. If he plans to start with him, which is a possibility given his form and Lancaster's long history with him, then he might be prepared to rely on Care to spark the backline and have Farrell playing off him (or even playing off Robshaw, as Quins did on Saturday). This might be the way things go if England are not expecting to have a dominant pack.

If fit it should be Flood, imo.

However Stuart Lancaster will disagree. Now that Manu is not banned I fully expect we will see Farrell at 10, with Barrit and Manu in the centre.

I am intrigued about the choice at SH - I still think that with Farrell at 10, Lancaster will opt for Dickson to start.

Flood offers a much better attacking and running threat than Farrell, which is why Lancaster wont start him.

If Hodgson makes the test squad Im going back to supporting Wales.

Flood at 10 would give the pretty one dimensional center pairing of Barrit/Tuillagi and bit more to work with. Id like to see him paired with Youngs as they work so well together for Tigers and previously for England, although Care offers a lot going forward too. Compared to Dickson those too will both do a lot more to keep defences on their toes and leave room outside.

The Ireland game did nothing to convince me that Farrell has anything to his game other than kicking and being brave in the tackle. The Barabrians game again showed he has all the attributes of a world class waste of ball at 12, cut out the middle man and play him at 10 if anywhere.

Honestly the thought of England lining up with the same backs they did against Ireland or the Barbarians fills me with dread. They wont get that level of forward dominance against SA. They may have scored a bucket load of points in the last two games but no-ones seriously kidding themselves that the Dickson/Hodgson/Farrell gang is a serious attacking threat to a well organised side are they?

Give the wingers a chance to get in the game, Ashton is capable of scoring if the balls moving forward in hand.

mystiroakey wrote:nope- no point in that dude- even if he had another year- we are building for the next wc

Wilkinsons still fit enough (despite all the injuries) to make the next world cup if he chose to. Unfortunately hes been utter sh1te for most of the last 5 9 years in an England shirt.

All depends what SL wants. With Farrell at 10 we should have 3 tight defensive-based tests (all of which we'll lose by just a bit). With Flood we'll attack more (provided our pack mans-up). and could just sneak one. Flood has proven record playing in some of our more impressive wins (and please don't use the SA and Ire games against him - in those every single Eng player was comprehensively outplayed). Jonno's gameplan was a failure in the RWC 11, can't see the point of adopting a similar gameplan and expecting it to work in '15.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:All depends what SL wants. With Farrell at 10 we should have 3 tight defensive-based tests (all of which we'll lose by just a bit). With Flood we'll attack more (provided our pack mans-up). and could just sneak one. Flood has proven record playing in some of our more impressive wins (and please don't use the SA and Ire games against him - in those every single Eng player was comprehensively outplayed). Jonno's gameplan was a failure in the RWC 11, can't see the point of adopting a similar gameplan and expecting it to work in '15.

Australia, 2010
Comprehensively outplayed but managed to hold on to a respectable scoreline. Chuck the team out and go for it, narrow win followed by the nearest thing to optimnism seen under Johnsons regime.
Mind the Saffers still kicked the cr@p out of England a few months later.

Thats the thing though theres not much you can do if a teams better. I expect England to loose these games whoever they play, but what they do here will define the direction Lancaster sees the team moving in long term. At least thats what he told the RFU to get his job. We were all largely understanding of his conservatism and starting with the building blocks during the 6 nations ( especially in the light of injuries), and that approach has been vindicated by results which were good. The gamble on farrell payed off. But the gaping wholes in Englands game arent covered over by all that. the selection of Farrell, certainly his selection at 12, will show a glaring lack of ambition to play attacking rugby..exactly what Johnson was accused of.