Your Ireland team to play the All Blacks in the 1st test

First topic message reminder :

There is always a lot of discussion from Irish posters, which is good, but sometimes things tend to go off in a tangent so, tout simplement, I wanted to ask you your opinion of who should start the first test v New Zealand. Note, this is YOUR team and not what you think Kidney will pick.

Full squad:
Ireland Squad (New Zealand tour 2012 with Test matches on 9, 16 and 23 June)

Forwards (17):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (13):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
*Denotes Uncapped Player

NB Paul O'Connell is not included in the listed squad until a decision is made regarding his fitness on Friday.

My pick:

1. Healy
2. Best.
3. Ross.
4. POC
5. Ryan
6. O'Brien
7. O’Mahony
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. D'Arcy
13. O’Driscoll
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Fitzpatrick
18. Tuohy
19. McLaughlin
20. Murray
21 AN Other
21. Zebo

Sin é wrote:Declan Kidney's team to meet the All Blacks (From @michaelc_rte )

15. RKearney
14. F. McFadden
13. BOD
12. K Earls
11. Simon Zebo
10. J Sexton
9. C Murray
1. C Healy
2. R best,
3. D Fitz,
4. D Touhy,
5. D Ryan,
6. P. O'Mahony
7. Jamie Heaslip
8. S. O'Brien,

Subs: S Cronin, R Loughney, D O'Callaghan, K McLaughlin, E Reddan, R O'Gara, D. Cave

Well, take a bow Kidney. That is a pretty good team. It isn't perfect, but I expect much worse. I assume O'Brien is meant to be at 7 with Heaslip at 8? Also, it still does bug me that O'Driscoll owns the 13 shirt. He will play 12 but it is annoying.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Declan Kidney's team to meet the All Blacks (From @michaelc_rte )

15. RKearney
14. F. McFadden
13. BOD
12. K Earls
11. Simon Zebo
10. J Sexton
9. C Murray
1. C Healy
2. R best,
3. D Fitz,
4. D Touhy,
5. D Ryan,
6. P. O'Mahony
7. Jamie Heaslip
8. S. O'Brien,

Subs: S Cronin, R Loughney, D O'Callaghan, K McLaughlin, E Reddan, R O'Gara, D. Cave

Well, take a bow Kidney. That is a pretty good team. It isn't perfect, but I expect much worse. I assume O'Brien is meant to be at 7 with Heaslip at 8? Also, it still does bug me that O'Driscoll owns the 13 shirt. He will play 12 but it is annoying.

Apparently he has it written in to his contract. Bit weird and annoyning alright but its just a number at the end of the day.

Debaters I am calmness personified mate so no need for you to worry. If Fitzpatrick fails I will be first to acknowledge it.
Without doubt I would have had Ross starting if fit. He isn't though and to suggest he should start the next one without having assessed Fitzpatrick's performance is at best premature.

valjester wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Declan Kidney's team to meet the All Blacks (From @michaelc_rte )

15. RKearney
14. F. McFadden
13. BOD
12. K Earls
11. Simon Zebo
10. J Sexton
9. C Murray
1. C Healy
2. R best,
3. D Fitz,
4. D Touhy,
5. D Ryan,
6. P. O'Mahony
7. Jamie Heaslip
8. S. O'Brien,

Subs: S Cronin, R Loughney, D O'Callaghan, K McLaughlin, E Reddan, R O'Gara, D. Cave

Well, take a bow Kidney. That is a pretty good team. It isn't perfect, but I expect much worse. I assume O'Brien is meant to be at 7 with Heaslip at 8? Also, it still does bug me that O'Driscoll owns the 13 shirt. He will play 12 but it is annoying.

Apparently he has it written in to his contract. Bit weird and annoyning alright but its just a number at the end of the day.

Really? The "BOD = 13" brand is worth something to the IRFU but I doubt he has stipulated it himself. It is mildly irritating but as you say it's only a number, and I don't expect him to ONLY stay in the 12 channel...

If BOD and Earls are interchanging I don't see the problem. No one own the number and I doubt BOD feels like it's his, but you play in the jersey you're handed.

Rava, I'd agree with you over Fitzpatrick and the other new players starting their first tests and the players in new positions. We've waited so long for a positive selection from Kidney, now we finally have one. We all have our reservations about some players but lets not condemn them before they play, lets get behind them.

Fair enough Rava, and I accept it is previous to drop him before he plays, but I dont think it is an outrageous suggestion either, like the situation we had pre the Wales game when Earls didnt play due to well documented personal reasons (hope all is well there since) in respect of McFadden. Unless Fergus had an outrageously amazing game, which he didnt (not suggesting he was poor or anything btw) Ealrs was going to be playing against the French in Paris.

However, should Fitzptrick gain parity and i mean mere parity, with Woodcock, he has to start next week too. The FR is different and while Woodcock will learn more than most guys over the videos, Fitzpatrick looking his side successfully will be a feat worthy of an encore performance. Assuming his loose work and lineout lifting are up to standard, can't be a one trick pony. Look at Ross, I have seen him with the ball, in his hands like. And moving with it. Passing occasionally too.

debaters1 wrote:Fair enough Rava, and I accept it is previous to drop him before he plays, but I dont think it is an outrageous suggestion either, like the situation we had pre the Wales game when Earls didnt play due to well documented personal reasons (hope all is well there since) in respect of McFadden. Unless Fergus had an outrageously amazing game, which he didnt (not suggesting he was poor or anything btw) Ealrs was going to be playing against the French in Paris.

However, should Fitzptrick gain parity and i mean mere parity, with Woodcock, he has to start next week too. The FR is different and while Woodcock will learn more than most guys over the videos, Fitzpatrick looking his side successfully will be a feat worthy of an encore performance. Assuming his loose work and lineout lifting are up to standard, can't be a one trick pony. Look at Ross, I have seen him with the ball, in his hands like. And moving with it. Passing occasionally too.

He gets to the breakdown just in time to put the divots back in the turf.

BOD having it written into his contract is pretty arrogant for mine. It implies he does own the 13 jersey which implies he's bigger and more important than the team. Noone is. Sure, it's a number, but last time I checked the number on the jersey was part of said jersey and noone should own, or feel like they own, the jersey.

I agree Disney.

I remember Donnacha O'Callaghan doing an interview about 3-4 years ago.

He said that you never own the shirt, your just minding it until the next fella takes it off you. And thats what he has to do he said. Take it off you.

He said he fought tooth and nail to get the Munster and Ireland shirts from the likes of Mick Galwey and Malcolm O'Kelly and that he wanted the next fella (Donnacha Ryan) to have to fight even harder to get him from him (which he now has done).

Right Rava, fair enough......hmm.....might be a probem against a team like the AB's!

Stag we've got a culture where each AB is told to leave the jersey in a better place than it was in before you put it on-as well as that "minding it for the next person" ethos. I really like that as it implies there's no going backwards, everyone is always evolving.

Definitely good for Ireland that Ryan is in.

red_stag wrote:I agree Disney.

I remember Donnacha O'Callaghan doing an interview about 3-4 years ago.

He said that you never own the shirt, your just minding it until the next fella takes it off you. And thats what he has to do he said. Take it off you.

There's irony for you.........

I am excited to see how Heaslip, O'Brien and O'Mahony get on against McCaw and Read. Probably the two best back rowers in the world. I think our guys will impress though, I really do. I am guessing that SOB and POM will play a left-right system? I have been thinking about what our back row will look like in the future (say the next world cup) and I think the missing guy could be Dominic Ryan.

6) O'Mahony
7) Ryan
8) O'Brien

I think O'Brien and O'Mahony will definitely feature. Ferris will hopefully be available as much as possible, and I would even think of putting him at 8 over Heaslip.

Pros:
The centres - I'm assuming that Earls and O'Driscoll are going to line up the other way around, which is a good decision if so
No D'Arcy!
The second row - Tuohy and Ryan are the form locks in the squad, no more unjustified selecting of DOC

Cons:
The wings - Both are weak in defence. McFadden being considered one of the best wingers in the country is very uninspiring and a bit depressing.

I'm pleasantly surprised with the team, I didn't think Kidney had it in him to make slight changes.

JmD wrote:Pros:
The centres - I'm assuming that Earls and O'Driscoll are going to line up the other way around, which is a good decision if so
No D'Arcy!
The second row - Tuohy and Ryan are the form locks in the squad, no more unjustified selecting of DOC

Cons:
The wings - Both are weak in defence. McFadden being considered one of the best wingers in the country is very uninspiring and a bit depressing.

I'm pleasantly surprised with the team, I didn't think Kidney had it in him to make slight changes.

In fairness I doubt either McFadden or Zebo would be starting if everyone was fit. I really can't fully understand why trimble isn't starting. Cave on the bench instead of him makes perfect sense but I would have though he would have been ahead of the other two especially considering how well he played last time we faced the All Blacks.

And apparently Earls and Bod have being lining up with Earls at 13 in training all week.

valjester wrote:

JmD wrote:Pros:
The centres - I'm assuming that Earls and O'Driscoll are going to line up the other way around, which is a good decision if so
No D'Arcy!
The second row - Tuohy and Ryan are the form locks in the squad, no more unjustified selecting of DOC

Cons:
The wings - Both are weak in defence. McFadden being considered one of the best wingers in the country is very uninspiring and a bit depressing.

I'm pleasantly surprised with the team, I didn't think Kidney had it in him to make slight changes.

In fairness I doubt either McFadden or Zebo would be starting if everyone was fit. I really can't fully understand why trimble isn't starting. Cave on the bench instead of him makes perfect sense but I would have though he would have been ahead of the other two especially considering how well he played last time we faced the All Blacks.

And apparently Earls and Bod have being lining up with Earls at 13 in training all week.

Who isnt fit val and who should be starting in front of Zebo? Clearly TRimble has been off form for the last few games and the last time we played NZ was some time ago Zebo is getting his chance as someone who plays good attacking rugby. Trimble as an attacking force has been poor for Ireland.

Well, Bowe for one. He is injured and out until next season. He'd have one of those wing spots. But I agree, people are dismissing his international ability before he plays a one. We'll know for 'certain' come 10.30am on Saturday, for now, I shall be cheering guys from all 4 Provinces til I am hoarse. Then repeating the performance on Sunday evening for our soccer players. Believe. Ireland by 6

Jeez...yeah forgot about Bowe...but he wasnt exactly setting the world alight either...

Looks like the plan is for Ireland to fling it around....

DOD wrote:Jeez...yeah forgot about Bowe...but he wasnt exactly setting the world alight either...

Looks like the plan is for Ireland to fling it around....

Bowe did score a lot of tries in the 6Ns and set up a fair few.

I haven't been impressed by McFadden at all, he is an average centre and I don't think he is an international winger at all.

Seriously how is Murray starting. Reddan really is a more accomplished player and his speed of pass and thought compliments JS.

Jury is out in Zebo hopefully he will play well.

Rest of the team as I would go for more or less. Very excited bout Earls. Can see him having a cracker. I'm sure Darce will come on for McF or Zebo at some point.

DArcy is not in the squad.

Can't see Darce coming on at all. He's not in the 22.

Shows how little I've been on these boards lately. Crazy busy in work. I'm sure he will feature in the latter tests.

I would have preffered to have Kearney Jr. and Gilroy on the wings, than McFadden and Zebo. But the two we have are at least very quick. Probably two of the fastest players in Ireland.

I don't like the selection of the completely out of form Murray. He was dreadful against the Ospreys in the PRO12 semi. And I hate to say it, but he was more at fault than most for Munsters HC exit at home to Ulster.

Reddan has some off days. He did against Glasgow in the PRO12 semi. But he has far more on days, like the HC final. We have to pick the Leinster half backs. It will be vital in getting a more cohesive and high tempo attack. But Kidney just won't do it. He keeps picking inferior scrumhalf's just because they're bigger. And it's been one of Ireland's major problems for ages.

No probs LB I hope you are wrong though because that would mean BOD/Earls/Cave has been a success. I'd take that.

If the Irish pack are under pressure Reddan wouldn't be the best man to have. That's the only logic I see in picking Murray. He can generate some go forward ball with his carrying. His service has been poor more so than his passing but he certainly has the ability, the reason he broke into the Munster and Irish set up was his ability as a tackler and quick service. I would have picked Reddan but can see the logic in picking Murray.

Feckless, have to say, i thought Reddan was Leinster's worst player in the HC Final. Not saying he was awful but compared to those around him, he made more mistakes and while obviously a fairly vital position on the field so he cannot have been a passenger given his role as link man, he wasn't good either, imho.

I'm either way on the SH though, hopefully Murray will fire better on Saturday and if so, then it is justified, if not, Reddan can slot in in the 2nd half and beyond.

I feel sorry for reddan the most under rated SH in the NH

Luke Fitzgerald would be ahead of McFadden in the pecking order also DOD. I'd actually say he and Bowe would probably be our wings if fit, but who knows?

It's ballsy dropping DOC, D'Arcy and Trimble on the basis of form and I applaud it. However I expect them each to feature at some point in the series.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I feel sorry for reddan the most under rated SH in the NH

Has a tendency to do something incrddibly stupid and has sometimes failed to deliver with a retreating pack. He deserves to start but not's go too far. Boss starts ahead of him half the time for his supposed "physical nature" could we see the same with a Murray/Reddan two punch?

Where is Secret Fly these days out of interest? Just wondering, he usually has good insight on these irish topics.

I am going to say that Murray probably needs the game time more than Reddan. He is the future. As the Munster fans have said, he has a very good pass, he is just taking too long at the rucks (something that can be easily fixed). I hope Murray can live up to his potential. Especially if he is going to be partnered with Hanrahan soon for Munster. Those two could be a lethal combination.

Just watching rugby club on sky sports and they say BOD is playing at 12

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I am going to say that Murray probably needs the game time more than Reddan. He is the future. As the Munster fans have said, he has a very good pass, he is just taking too long at the rucks (something that can be easily fixed). I hope Murray can live up to his potential. Especially if he is going to be partnered with Hanrahan soon for Munster. Those two could be a lethal combination.

I thought Murray played very well against France, there was a huge change from the previous week and someone definitely had a word with him. If he picks up were he left off in that game we'll be grand.

BOD was always going to be playing 12 although he may defend at 13 off scrums and lineouts.

I think Murray is a good player but it's almost as if he has been around tOL too long! He has started doing some of the brain dead stuff TOL does, I'm talking about picking and going around the fringes after a line break.
NOTHING ANNOYS ME MORE! IDIOTIC DOESN'T EVEN NEARLY CUT IT.

If he can cut that part out of his game and quicken up his decision making and deliver the ball on a platter to Sexton.

With his skills he should be able to do it...he...just hasn't....for like....8 months.

I'd start Reddan as he is far the better 9 on form

Yeah I know what you mean Pete, but I think that can be easily coached to correct that. Then again, I remember who the coach is..

Yeah that is what I am hoping, I was really glad when Penny got the job and said he wanted to rejig the Munster culture/game style, he seems like he knows that he has to keep some of it but needs to reinvent parts of the Munster game. I think Murray's decision making will be included in the part he wants to change.

If Murray gives Sexton slow ball where he has to stand deep because the defence is set then the inclusion of Earls and Zebo will count for naught. And Sexton will be made kick the ball away.

Murray is used to ROG bossing him. Sexton is going to have to step up to the plate and help him.

I can't get over this Reddan love-in. Schmidt rarely uses him away from home and I think Reddan has been one of the main reasons that leinster have lost the Rabbo Final in the last 2 years. He just isn't physical enough (and Boss was injured) and he sure can do some braindead things when he is under pressure.

Sin é wrote:Murray is used to ROG bossing him. Sexton is going to have to step up to the plate and help him.

I can't get over this Reddan love-in. Schmidt rarely uses him away from home and I think Reddan has been one of the main reasons that leinster have lost the Rabbo Final in the last 2 years. He just isn't physical enough (and Boss was injured) and he sure can do some braindead things when he is under pressure.

Wow just wow...this is actually getting quite funny.i just cannot believe how under rated reddan is.oh well at least us leinster fans know how good he is thats all that matters i suppose

Im a Blues supporter, and I think Reddan is very under-rated - and Murray is over-rated if anything (potentially another TOL)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think Murray is a good player but it's almost as if he has been around tOL too long! He has started doing some of the brain dead stuff TOL does, I'm talking about picking and going around the fringes after a line break.
NOTHING ANNOYS ME MORE! IDIOTIC DOESN'T EVEN NEARLY CUT IT.

Oh god, I know. Having a 'physical' nine is one thing. Having that 9 give you guaranteed slow ball and take himself out of the game with a pointless pick and go is another... it's something you see far too often when it's not the right option.

Reddan earned that Ireland shirt when he was at Wasps.

Just saying.


Seriously though, Reddan is the best 9 Ireland have. Only Italy have a worse complement of scrum halves in the 6N.

Notch wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think Murray is a good player but it's almost as if he has been around tOL too long! He has started doing some of the brain dead stuff TOL does, I'm talking about picking and going around the fringes after a line break.
NOTHING ANNOYS ME MORE! IDIOTIC DOESN'T EVEN NEARLY CUT IT.

Oh god, I know. Having a 'physical' nine is one thing. Having that 9 give you guaranteed slow ball and take himself out of the game with a pointless pick and go is another... it's something you see far too often when it's not the right option.

HEY! Don't be so mean to Mike Phill.....oh I see.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Reddan earned that Ireland shirt when he was at Wasps.

Just saying.


Seriously though, Reddan is the best 9 Ireland have. Only Italy have a worse complement of scrum halves in the 6N.

I think you're right Hound. If you put together the greatest Irish team of all time our best SH would probably be Stringer, now Strings did what he did very well but he wouldn't make the best team of any other top tier nation. SH has historically been somewhere we've never had a world class player.

Colin Patterson. Ask Ollie Campbell and Tony Ward. Sadly injury brought his career to a premature end.

Rav, I didn’t say we never had any good scrum halves, I just mean that we don’t have many scrum halves who would be considered “legends of Irish rugby”. We have them in every other position.

wales606 wrote:Im a Blues supporter, and I think Reddan is very under-rated - and Murray is over-rated if anything (potentially another TOL)

Yeah sort of agree...Reddan is very underrated and Murray is in danger of becoming another TOL... however in Murrays defence I feel he has the talent to be top,top class, whereas TOL didn't. Murray is a very good passer, better than Reddan, is quick, strong and a very good kicker... but...

....thats why its been so frustrating watching him this year...he has been awful, really awful. Rather than just stepping over the ball and clearing it when we are in an attacking position , he's doing what TOL does which is delay the pass..look both ways, then either take the ball into contact himself, kick it away or take a step and pass from the shoulders which allows the defence to reorganize and move up...he's put O'Gara and Sexton under terrible pressure (expecially against Wales and Ospreys who have that blitz defence) and is a big, big reason for the poor and predictable attacking play we've seen for Munster and Ireland recently.

Bring back stringer.

DOD wrote:Bring back stringer.

+ 1

p.s. Isaac Boss is my hero.....

Mickado I was throwing in Patterson's name in response to your comment about Stringer probably being Scrum Half in a greatest ever Ireland team.

I do realise you are probably far too young to remember him.