Your Ireland team to play the All Blacks in the 1st test

First topic message reminder :

There is always a lot of discussion from Irish posters, which is good, but sometimes things tend to go off in a tangent so, tout simplement, I wanted to ask you your opinion of who should start the first test v New Zealand. Note, this is YOUR team and not what you think Kidney will pick.

Full squad:
Ireland Squad (New Zealand tour 2012 with Test matches on 9, 16 and 23 June)

Forwards (17):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (13):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
*Denotes Uncapped Player

NB Paul O'Connell is not included in the listed squad until a decision is made regarding his fitness on Friday.

My pick:

1. Healy
2. Best.
3. Ross.
4. POC
5. Ryan
6. O'Brien
7. O’Mahony
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. D'Arcy
13. O’Driscoll
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Fitzpatrick
18. Tuohy
19. McLaughlin
20. Murray
21 AN Other
21. Zebo

red_stag wrote:Hooks - I get what your saying but your basing your info on old news. I have been extremely impressed with him on several occasions and I think had Cave or O'Driscoll done the exact same things people would have been very satisfied.

Oh for sure Stag he is improving there. His distribution is nowhere near as poor as it was, but I still don't think it is quite up to scratch, and I don't think his performances have been as impressive as Cave this season. That said, if he wants to be an international 13 then he needs to do it every week for Munster. But I have no axe to grind with him- I thought he was Ireland's best back behind Kearney in the Six Nations and I have no worries with him being selected against the All Blacks. I just think that Cave is the form 13 and would deserve a shot there. It just seems a shame that Cave's weaknesses are Earls' strengths and vice versa.

red_stag wrote:I have no concerns regarding Earls distribution. It amazes me that this is such a concern for some people.

I don't think his problem is distribution, his passing is actually pretty good, particularly of set plays.

I don't believe he sees space the way O'Driscoll and Cave etc. do, natural centres, or has the same awareness of what is going on around him....plays instinctively, rather than with his head up.

That said I think he's done well this year at 13 and would be quite happy to see him carry on there. Seemed to be improving by the game.

earls is a better full back than jones in my opinion. real gas good on the counter and a decent kicker.

laulala is a quality player and you would think he will play 13. unless Munster press him to inside centre

I agree entirely about these feicing hybrid players

Hooky and Rodders - I get you now. I do agree regarding the "heads up" rugby and it would be my biggest criticism of him.

I'm interested to see what the new backs coach brings to Munster. But seeing as his last club Racing Metro were 4th from bottom in tries scored it doesn't sound great. He has some guys who are very talented with ball in hand like Jones,Zebo and Earls.

Earls has definitely improved in his distribution, but that doesn't mean his strengths are being utilised most at 13.

red_stag wrote:Hooky and Rodders - I get you now. I do agree regarding the "heads up" rugby and it would be my biggest criticism of him.

I just see him as a top quality back three player and a decent centre. Seems like Munster and Ireland agree to an extent.

red_stag wrote:Hooky and Rodders - I get you now. I do agree regarding the "heads up" rugby and it would be my biggest criticism of him.

However just to note BOD had the same criticism for some time and in fact his distribution was extremely poor (his kicking worse). Over time he worked hard at that aspect of his game and it is where it is now because of that.

rodders wrote:

red_stag wrote:I have no concerns regarding Earls distribution. It amazes me that this is such a concern for some people.

I don't think his problem is distribution, his passing is actually pretty good, particularly of set plays.

I don't believe he sees space the way O'Driscoll and Cave etc. do, natural centres, or has the same awareness of what is going on around him....plays instinctively, rather than with his head up.

That said I think he's done well this year at 13 and would be quite happy to see him carry on there. Seemed to be improving by the game.

This is it. Earls is no more a natural centre than Fitzgerald is a natural fullback. I have no doubt that if he keeps playing there Earls will be a good international 13. I think he has all the attributes to be a genuinely world class winger, and his strike rate suggests this already. For all DOD's posts he was right on one thing- Kidney has a habit of creating utility players to the detriment of specialisation. Earls could make a good centre, but he could be an outstanding winger. Why sacrifice that?

Again though, I have no problems with Earls playing 13 for Ireland in the future. I think though in BOD and Cave there are better, more natural solutions. If Cave plays and is horrendous against the All Blacks I'll have that big slice of home baked Munster humble pie at the ready.

We'll just give you a turnip instead. Hard to cook a turnip into a pie.

I dont think that it is Kidney who creates these guys per say.

red_stag wrote:I dont think that it is Kidney who creates these guys per say.

Kidney hasn't been bashed for a while so thought I would drop it in. In regards the provinces, both Munster and Leinster are guilty with Earls and Fitzgerald.

It could be Kidney actually stag. Apparently he might be wanting Ulster to try playing Cave at 12 and Bowe at 13. Why even do that?

red_stag wrote:I agree entirely about these feicing hybrid players

Me too.

I have a theory on that ( ).... I believe the problem is that because we only have 3 main teams and a limited no of 1st team spots the generation that has followed the 'Golden generation' have had to slot in where they've been able to get gametime rather than in their best positions.

For example Darcy and BOD had the centre positions nailed down for years so any good 3/4s like Trimble and McFadden ended up on the wing, now we are coming full circle were we will see lots of talented outside backs scrambling to play at centre because of the abundance of wingers.

It is not about humble pie it is about the best players for that position. At this time BOD is the best, Earls has shown himself to be next in line and Cave is beginning to move up the ladder.

The other question is who can improve more in that position. In my mind it is Earls that is all. I think Cave has improved this year but I dont see him as being the next big thing in the centre for us and Earls strike rate at Centre is nothing to be sniffed at.


The welsh only have four teams but they always play their best players in their best position. You dont see Warburton playing at 6 or when he was coming through the blues didnt move Nugget to accomodate him. It was a battle for the 7 jersey. The same with all their players.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:01 Cian Healy
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Kevin McLaughlin
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Eoin Reddan
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Andrew Trimble
12 Brian O'Driscoll (c)
13 Darren Cave
14 Keith Earls
15 Rob Kearney

16 Rory Best
17 Mike Ross
18 Mike McCarthy
19 Chris Henry
20 Conor Murray
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Fergus McFadden

I think we need to have a look properly at the front row. Fitzpatrick should get a run out for maybe 50 minutes and see how he goes. We all know what Rory Best brings and if this was a competitive match then I would start him, but in a 'friendly' I would like to see Cronin get a real runout. Trimble may not be at his best at the moment, but he is not being used effectively by Ulster which is half the problem- I am certainly not as certain as some others who claim Trimble will be a backup player next season. Gilroy has a long way to go in my eyes. Zebo's defence fills me with absolutely zero confidence. I really hope to see BOD at 12 but I honestly see Kidney going with the usual Leinster pairing here but I can dream.

To many ball carriers in that team Hooky.

spot on about the hybrid players. one or two are fine but we have too many in the irish set up. jack of all trades masters of none.

cannot agree any less with the below

Redden and Sexton...heres a good one. Against certain teams (usually non-Irish) they are easily managed as the O's showed agains last weekend. Sexton can be read like a ladybird book for 4 year olds and clearly the Welsh have him sussed. Redden doesnt offer enough inside and with the same old boys outside Sexton there wont be much in the line of creativity going on against the better teams (that would be New Zealand or Wales for example).

sexton had a decent game v the ospreys and reddan was ok. the game was not lost at half back, neither were our last 3 international defeats v wales. they were lost by a combination of bad luck in a game when both sides were poor (cardiff), gatland completely outfoxing kidney (world cup) and a combination of both with a dollop of ignorance in the aviva. we knew that the welsh had a massive fast direct backline yet kicked so much ball to them and sat back to defend giving up about 4 inches and 3 stone per back.

reddan and sexton have started at half back in our last three good international performances - aus (wc) england (deny them slam) scotland (6 nations). they must start together.

i dont care if reddan is not a tank of a scrum half and carrys the ball head down at the detriment of whizzing a pass out to his fly half. we need a footballing scrum half who provides some zip and good service. murray in current form is not the answer. he may well be long term but he nis not now

I dont think Murray is playing well at the moment and it is much of a muchness with Redden. Having said that Murray started in Paris (our first result there in some time)

The problem is Sexton is easily read as is our backline with Darcy and BOD. The Welsh and other teams have targetted this. It will be the same in NZ.

DOD wrote:It is not about humble pie it is about the best players for that position. At this time BOD is the best, Earls has shown himself to be next in line and Cave is beginning to move up the ladder.

The other question is who can improve more in that position. In my mind it is Earls that is all. I think Cave has improved this year but I dont see him as being the next big thing in the centre for us and Earls strike rate at Centre is nothing to be sniffed at.


The welsh only have four teams but they always play their best players in their best position. You dont see Warburton playing at 6 or when he was coming through the blues didnt move Nugget to accomodate him. It was a battle for the 7 jersey. The same with all their players.

I think Earls could be a fine centre but if he got a good run on the wing or maybe even full back he could be truly world class.I think his strengths suit those positions more and we are actually pretty short on full backs now.

I agree about the hybrid players,it's fine to move a player about when he's young and you want to see how he performs in different positions but it shouldn't be a full term thing.You mention the Welsh not doing this and you're right in general but there is one exception which I think is the perfect example of this problem,James Hook has all the talent in the world but has been shifted from pillar to post his entire career and while he has had a career most people would be proud of I think he could have been so much better.

DOD wrote:It is not about humble pie it is about the best players for that position. At this time BOD is the best, Earls has shown himself to be next in line and Cave is beginning to move up the ladder.

The other question is who can improve more in that position. In my mind it is Earls that is all. I think Cave has improved this year but I dont see him as being the next big thing in the centre for us and Earls strike rate at Centre is nothing to be sniffed at.


The welsh only have four teams but they always play their best players in their best position. You dont see Warburton playing at 6 or when he was coming through the blues didnt move Nugget to accomodate him. It was a battle for the 7 jersey. The same with all their players.

Fair enough DOD. The problem I find with your position is that Earls and Cave are same age so it is not as if Cave is as good as he will get and Earls has much greater opportunity for improvement. Cave has improved this season with a proper run in the team- same as Earls. However, as things stand, and this could entirely change by this time next season, Cave is playing in a team on the up whilst Earls appears to be a team in interminable decline, and signings you have made plus retirements doesn't lead me to believe that will be any different next season. That said, you can never count Munster out of anything. So if Cave is playing at a higher level then surely he would have the opportunity to improve more? Further, as I have said this isn't an 'anti-Earls' thing, but I believe he could be a world class winger. He is better than Zebo and the Leinster wingers, and the Ulster wingers except the incoming Bowe. When the call between Cave and Earls is marginal, and I think could go either way, surely needs dictate he should play in the wing?

For me Earls is a decent centre but on the wing he has the potential to be something special that is why he should play in the back three.

He can reach higher heights there whereas he will never be more than a decent centre.

our backs are easily read i agree there.

i put it down to poor backs coaching to be honest. in a green jersey are backs are expected to punch holes off slow ball and their is a distinct lack of variety in terms of dummy runners and decoys. its all very predictable and easy to defend against. our centres are small so they cannot make the hard yards playing this way. if we want to play a slow calculated possession game we will need much bigger centres to punch holes. if we want to play a more fluid modern type game we will need a change of outlook not personnel. reddan,sexton,darcy,drico have more than held their own against top sides under schmidts tutelage

I disagree about the assessment on earls and cave. The general consensus is that after Kearney earls was the other positive element of the Irish backs and certainly when he played centre for Ireland. I believe he has the ability to get so much better in that position and his try scoring from games he played centre for Ireland is good. I just think he will get even better if given a proper run. Cave is adecent centre but I honestly don't see him being into class but he is a good option. He is the same age as earls but in terms of international ability and impact the comparison ends.

Regarding hook he is the exception in Wales that proves the rule

Dave the thing about leinster is the ability of the forwards to ramp up the pressure and switch gears at certain points during a game, in addition to a never say die defensive attitude. The semi final and final of the HC are ample evidence of this. The x factor(s) for leinster have been Kearney and nacewa. The 9, 10, 12 & 13 axis (except for BoD in the final) have not been the all creative force that has been made out. This is exacerbated at international level where the margins are tighter. The problems for Ireland are getting that dynamism in the forwards on a consistent basis, like the games you mentioned which make space for the backs.

Before you accuse me of Munster bias I mean we don't need POC or DOC or Ryan doing the Munster charge and flop and dying with the ball for example.

we will never know if players are international class if we dont give them a chance in meaningful international games! who knows the likes of zebo, henry and tuohy may seamlessly make the step up. For example a load of English wrote off Robshaw as being a good club player but not of international calibre. coach gave him a chance and he grabbed it

i kind of agree with you on the leinster 9,10,12,13 axis. Our main gamebreakers are SOB,Nacewa,Kearney. However our half backs and midfield are crucial to the way we play and all distribute the ball very well. they set the tempo and are crucial to our continuity game. I honestly do not see why with a change of strategy from the coaching team they can replicate this at international level (Darcy being an exception as i think he is done at international level).

In terms of dynamism for the forwards we have a big issue agreed. It drives me mental to see flopping forwards walking at a blitz defense. we keep going backwards then hoof the ball away or our alternatively our backs get smashed behind the gainline. again this is a slow moving bludgeoning multi phase forward game that smal had south africa playing by design. the game has changed mate we have plenty of dynamic forwards in ireland just dont use them properly. paulie is a class 2nd row but not a great carrier outside of close quarters, he should be physically chased out of the outhalf position. maul, tackle, win restarts, boss lineout, hit rucks keep it simple. ryan,tuouhy etc have a bit of gas and can operate further out

rodders wrote:1. Healy
2. Best.
3. Ross.
4. POC
5. Ryan
6. McLaughlin
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. Cave
13. O’Driscoll
14. Earls
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Fitzpatrick
18. Tuohy
19. O'Mahoney
20. Murray
21. ROG
22. McFadden

Hell i can live with that side rodders

But can the All blacks live with it Billy.....

Nope, me old bones are talking again and you know what that means

eirebilly wrote:Nope, me old bones are talking again and you know what that means

I sure do Billy......

3-0 to the ABs!

I boldly predict that Ireland will win the 2nd test rodders, if not i will fly you and your sexy lady here to Holland and buy you some 's

A ticket for me will do fine Billy.. one way should do it...

I think we may win the 1st test actually, that presents are best chance I think and the AB's will get stronger as the series goes on .

Paul O'Connell is out of the summer tour.

No O'Connell, no Ferris, no Bowe- no hope? I think we're going to get shafted lads.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/26603.php

Common sense, the guy isn't fit.

Time for Ryan and Tuohy to step up to the plate. Unfortunately O'Callaghan will start now but I think we've enough quality there.

I think taking McCarthy rather than Cullen or Toner is a huge blunder though.

Here's my team lads

1-Healy
2-Best
3-Ross
4-Ryan
5-Tuohy
6-McLaughlin
7-O'Brien
8-Heaslip

9-Reddan
10-Sexton
11-Earls
12-O'Driscoll (c)
13-Cave
14-Trimble
15-Kearney

16-Cronin
17-Fitzpatrick
18-McCarthy
19-O'Mahoney
20-Murray
21-O'Gara
22-McFadden

Most of you would agree with most of that team, but one area that might be contentious is the backrow. I agree that Heaslip has not been the best in that position for Ireland lately but I feel this could be a big game for him as he try's to make amends for the red card last time. At 7 we have to persevere with O'Brien, and IMO he has made great strides there this season. This leaves 6 where I feel McLaughlin should start as O'Mahoney would be the better of the two coming off the bench. I know I have left Henry out of the equation here but he's probably just gone to hold bags as McLaughlin would have done had 1F not been injured.

One thing we do have to take into account is the lineout. Our scrum is not going to be great without Ross so lineout is quite crucial IMO.

Ryan and Tuohy while good lineout forwards are not going to equal up to POC in the air.

For this reason I think I'd leave Henry out of the 22.

Can someone who knows more about POM than I please tell me how he good he is in the lineout?
McLaughlin is good but to be honest I'd prefer to play POM as I think he is better, has more unlocked potential and it would make us very competitive at the breakdown. Plus his aggression is sick.

I disagree with the inclusion of McCarthy myself, Cullen is injured apparently so he is a right off but Toner has been in the form of his life, I guess Toner is a LH lock so maybe that sold it.

One of POM's best strengths is in the line out. Another reason why he is better at 6/8 than 7.

I know one of McL's strengths is the lineout would he and POM be something on par in that area?

I would say so. Like I said it is one of the things O'Mahony is really good at.

Then I would put POM at 6.

Healy-Best-Fitzpatrick
Ryan-Tuohy
POM-Heaslip-SOB
Reddan-Sexton
BOD(c)-Cave
Earls-Kearney-McFadden

Cronin-Loughney-DOC-McL-Murray-Rog-Trimble

That would be my lot

I think O'Mahony will get the nod for sure.

DOD, don't the Aussie's move players around a lot too? With some success. Digbey Ioane is playing 10 for his club isn't he? And he's doing well. O'Connor has played well all over the backline. I don't see the problem if the player can play each position to a high level. The teams needs is more important than where an individual prefers to play.

By the way, oes anyone else think Cronin was better than Strauss for the last part of this season? He scored and set up a try in the HC final. Strauss is explosive but Cronin is even more explosive. I'd rather Cronin play for Ireland than a South African. But by their performances, Cronin was better anyway.

Re: DOD on Cave and Earls. Fair enough mate. I would like to see Cave given a chance at 13 after the great season he has had. Only time will tell on the 13 spot.

Two things I find interesting from this thread. Firstly, practically every single person (included myself) have BOD at 12. I wonder what the real chance of this happening are? Can he actually make the transition there? One might assume a player could switch from 12 to 13 and vice versa easily but it could be technically challenging. Would BOD need to really move to 13 for Leinster as well in the coming season, and what are the consequences for the Leinster squad.

The back row debate is also interesting here. A lot of posters are talking about POM or McLaughlin, but why is Henry not being taken more seriously? In the aftermath of the european final I read several teams of the season and some of them had Chris Henry in at 7. My memory might be failing me but even Stephen Jones, who hates Irish rugby, had him in his side.

I think the centres will definitely be D'Arcy and O'Driscoll. I would be very surprised if it isn't.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think the centres will definitely be D'Arcy and O'Driscoll. I would be very surprised if it isn't.

I would be absolutely astounded if Kidney picks anyone else. I obviously want to see Cave given a go at 13, but Earls is also very deserving of being given a proper chance at 13. We all saw BOD in the european semi and final and saw still what an awesome player he still is. Would his game be diminished by playing at 12? How can we expect to produce attacking rugby when Darcy is playing so poorly in green. Even in the outstanding campaign of Leinster this season I thought he was the weak link in the back line.

12. BOD
13. Earls

Hasn't been seen since we thumped Wales in 2010, I think. Looked promising.

Although surely Earls will be on the wing, given the injuries.

We all know the backs will be Trimble, D'Arcy, BOD, Earls, Kearney
Bench: McFadden

Maybe but I really think Cave and Zebo will feature at some stage. I do think Kidney rates Cave and we could be surprised.

eirebilly wrote:I boldly predict that Ireland will win the 2nd test rodders, if not i will fly you and your sexy lady here to Holland and buy you some 's

The pints will be on me Billy, that's a promise. Get well soon my friend

Here here Rodders.