Your Ireland team to play the All Blacks in the 1st test

First topic message reminder :

There is always a lot of discussion from Irish posters, which is good, but sometimes things tend to go off in a tangent so, tout simplement, I wanted to ask you your opinion of who should start the first test v New Zealand. Note, this is YOUR team and not what you think Kidney will pick.

Full squad:
Ireland Squad (New Zealand tour 2012 with Test matches on 9, 16 and 23 June)

Forwards (17):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O’Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (13):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O’Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
*Denotes Uncapped Player

NB Paul O'Connell is not included in the listed squad until a decision is made regarding his fitness on Friday.

My pick:

1. Healy
2. Best.
3. Ross.
4. POC
5. Ryan
6. O'Brien
7. O’Mahony
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. D'Arcy
13. O’Driscoll
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Fitzpatrick
18. Tuohy
19. McLaughlin
20. Murray
21 AN Other
21. Zebo

Stringer was one of Ireland's greatest scrum half, gave the best service to an outhalf I have seen from an Irish player. He is pass, step rather than step,pass.

I think we funnel all our talented playmakers to 10. What position would a Morgan Parra, Dmitri Yachvilli or Ruan Pienaar be asked to play from a young age in Ireland? I think 10, not 9.

In fairness Notch the French have a different system in that their main play maker is the scrum half.... probably not the best system to follow.

The playmaker should be the 10 but your 9 has to be smart and assertive enough to take on decisions when required....and most of all the 9 and 10 need to be on the same wavelength, which so far Murray and Sexton haven't been.....which isn't surprising because they play totally different gameplans at provincial level.

I actually don't think Stringer was a great scrum half, he was too one dimensional for me, but the way the game has gone since 2009 really suits his game and quick service.

rodders wrote:

wales606 wrote:Im a Blues supporter, and I think Reddan is very under-rated - and Murray is over-rated if anything (potentially another TOL)

Yeah sort of agree...Reddan is very underrated and Murray is in danger of becoming another TOL... however in Murrays defence I feel he has the talent to be top,top class, whereas TOL didn't. Murray is a very good passer, better than Reddan, is quick, strong and a very good kicker... but...

....thats why its been so frustrating watching him this year...he has been awful, really awful. Rather than just stepping over the ball and clearing it when we are in an attacking position , he's doing what TOL does which is delay the pass..look both ways, then either take the ball into contact himself, kick it away or take a step and pass from the shoulders which allows the defence to reorganize and move up...he's put O'Gara and Sexton under terrible pressure (expecially against Wales and Ospreys who have that blitz defence) and is a big, big reason for the poor and predictable attacking play we've seen for Munster and Ireland recently.

You thought Reddan did well against the Os in the Magners Final !

How do you think he did against England in the 6Ns ?

Reddan does fine if his pack is dominating (which happens a lot for Leiinster).

It simply doesn't happen for Ireland in the same way.

Crickey, even though Reddan performed well for Wasps when he was there, Gatland/Geech preferred O'leary/Phillips/Blair to him for the Lions and they would have known him well.

Sin é wrote:You thought Reddan did well against the Os in the Magners Final !

I think he did considerably better than Murray did a few weeks previous against them.

Sin é wrote:

Crickey, even though Reddan performed well for Wasps when he was there, Gatland/Geech preferred O'leary/Phillips/Blair to him for the Lions and they would have known him well.

Them fellas wot did lose the Lions series? They know their stuff, them lads - and have the medals to prove it. But they played well and I guess, for Geech, that was proof of something. Nice pool side banter too.

rodders wrote:In fairness Notch the French have a different system in that their main play maker is the scrum half.... probably not the best system to follow.

I disagree, I'm a big fan. So is David Humphreys

(I'm actually a fan of having at least two quality playmakers, either 9 and 10 or 10 and 12)

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:In fairness Notch the French have a different system in that their main play maker is the scrum half.... probably not the best system to follow.

I disagree, I'm a big fan. So is David Humphreys

(I'm actually a fan of having at least two quality playmakers, either 9 and 10 or 10 and 12)

Thats why the French often fall short at the highest level Notch, despite often having the best players. They always lack a 10 who can control the game under pressure.

The 9 needs to compliment the 10 and make his life as easy as possible but as 1st reciever the 10 always has to be the main playmaker.

Others can step up to the plate to take the pressure off to a point but as we saw with Jackson in the HEC final, in tight games, the 10 will be exposed if he's not up to it.

The 12 and 9 ultimately have their own duties to perform and when push comes to shove they can be taken out of the game by the opposition and it's the fly-half who needs to dictate the play, clear the lines, initiate the attacks, drop into the pocket and kick goals etc.....

And as we constantly point out, Ireland always fall short because of poor decision making at 9 hamstringing what our 10 can do.

I prefer having two or three playmakers/tactical kickers/decision makers in the side to one. The 9 and 10 both have to take that responsibility. A bad 9 is as bad as a bad 10 in my view.

I'm not disputing the 10 is crucial. But 9 is as important.

The way the game has gone the 9 is more important than ever because you need quick ball to attack. A slow passing 9 will really feic things up...

That said 10 is without question the most important position on the pitch for me and you won't win many games without a top class 10.

A fly half needs to be one step ahead of everyone else, be able to kick well off both feet, pass both directions, have a short and long passing game and in the modern game be strong and quick too. No other position needs anywhere near the same skill set....a bonus yes but not a necessity...

There are some teams where the #9 controls the team and dictates things much more so that the #10.

Examples include Ulster, Biarritz and the France national team with Ruan Pienaar, Dimitri Yachvili and Morgan Parra rocking the cradle.

BTW I think that that type of game is extremely dodgey and would not like to see us go down that route.

There aren't many teams with a Pienaar/Yashvilli/Parra type SH AND a game managing 10. How would a team operate if they had both? Would the 9's influence take away from the 10's ability to impose themselves on the game or would the opposition be in a pickle about who's going to do what? I'd love to see how Sexton would do with that type of player along side him, just for curiosity...

red_stag wrote:There are some teams where the #9 controls the team and dictates things much more so that the #10.

Examples include Ulster, Biarritz and the France national team with Ruan Pienaar, Dimitri Yachvili and Morgan Parra rocking the cradle.

I do like a strong minded, willful 9...who knows what he wants from his forwards (or maybe more to the point, can intimately sense the mood and ability of his pack) I like to think of him as a carriage driver with a collection of horses out ahead and a bundle of reins to make sense of. Stringer to me is/was a master at driving the carriage. BUT...I also like a strong-minded 10 who is a notch above the 9, allowing the 9 leverage up to a point but then demanding things his way from his better vantage point when his instincts inform him of opportunities.

Sexton would absolutely thrive with Pienaar. Quick ball in the breadbasket, on the gainline every phase? And he would take the pressure off aSexton with his kicking game too.

Not so much with the French pair.

Mickado wrote:There aren't many teams with a Pienaar/Yashvilli/Parra type SH AND a game managing 10. How would a team operate if they had both? Would the 9's influence take away from the 10's ability to impose themselves on the game or would the opposition be in a pickle about who's going to do what? I'd love to see how Sexton would do with that type of player along side him, just for curiosity...

Yeah I think Sexton or anyone would benefit from playing alongside someone like Pienaar.... don't get me wrong I am all for a scrum half who can control the game and take responsibility in that way but ultimately it can't compensate for a 10 who can't.

A strong pack and good backrow can take an opposition scrum half out of the game and pressurise them much easier than they can a fly half....hence 10 is the main playmaking position and not 9.

At the end of the day the 9's job is to get the ball to his first reciever, but it's the first recievers job to decide what to do with it no one elses....and if he's the weak link then you are feiced no matter whos outside or inside him....

Notch wrote:I think we funnel all our talented playmakers to 10. What position would a Morgan Parra, Dmitri Yachvilli or Ruan Pienaar be asked to play from a young age in Ireland? I think 10, not 9.

+1

I think it is a bit of a balancing act. The 9 should be a playmaker IMo. If he is not he isn't doing his job fully. 9 is one of the chief decision makers on the pitch as he controls tempo and who actually puts the ball in his players hands. Ultimately he decides where the ball goes although his 10 may call for the ball and he should yield to the 10 in that scenario as the 10 can see more than the 9 where as the 9 may have a better 'feel' for the game

rodders wrote:At the end of the day the 9's job is to get the ball to his first reciever, but it's the first recievers job to decide what to do with it no one elses....and if he's the weak link then you are feiced no matter whos outside or inside him....

See this is where we differ. It's a 9s job to get the guick ball to first receiver to launch attacking moves when its on, clear the lines in defence very often with box kicks, take advantage of tactical kicking opportunities if they arise (although this is very much a secondary to the 10), marshall the forwards and on top of that snipe around the fringes if it's on.

Its a position with a lot of responsibility! You need a good decision maker and a guy with a well-rounded skillset, sometimes I feel we lack that in Ireland with our 9s

From what I have seen though Murray does show promise. He strikes me as a playmaker. As rodders said, that is why he has been frustrating. He has a quick pass, he is pretty physical, he can kick. He has the attributes, he just needs a good coach.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:At the end of the day the 9's job is to get the ball to his first reciever, but it's the first recievers job to decide what to do with it no one elses....and if he's the weak link then you are feiced no matter whos outside or inside him....

See this is where we differ. It's a 9s job to get the guick ball to first receiver to launch attacking moves when its on, clear the lines in defence very often with box kicks, take advantage of tactical kicking opportunities if they arise (although this is very much a secondary to the 10), marshall the forwards and on top of that snipe around the fringes if it's on.

Its a position with a lot of responsibility! You need a good decision maker and a guy with a well-rounded skillset, sometimes I feel we lack that in Ireland with our 9s

No I don't disagree with any of that Notch, but what I do believe is that none of that in anyway diminishes the responsibility that the 10 has, which is to be the primary play maker and the guy who controls the game.

The 9 can't possibly assume that role unless he is getting an absolute armchair ride from the pack and even then he has to concentrate on tracking the ball carrier and he spends a fair percentage of the game with his head down and as you say marshalling the forwards etc.

In terms of clearing the lines that has to be the primary responsibility of the 10 as he will usually get more distance and is less likely to be charged down as the baby bok SH found out the other day.....

rodders wrote:No I don't disagree with any of that Notch, but what I do believe is that none of that in anyway diminishes the responsibility that the 10 has, which is to be the primary play maker and the guy who controls the game.

But neither do I

Well controls the game is an overstatement. One or other halfback will be dominant. But you can't succeed without a decent 10.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:At the end of the day the 9's job is to get the ball to his first reciever, but it's the first recievers job to decide what to do with it no one elses....and if he's the weak link then you are feiced no matter whos outside or inside him....

See this is where we differ. It's a 9s job to get the guick ball to first receiver to launch attacking moves when its on, clear the lines in defence very often with box kicks, take advantage of tactical kicking opportunities if they arise (although this is very much a secondary to the 10), marshall the forwards and on top of that snipe around the fringes if it's on.

Its a position with a lot of responsibility! You need a good decision maker and a guy with a well-rounded skillset, sometimes I feel we lack that in Ireland with our 9s

Alright Notch I hear what you're saying I will put on the green jersey and teach these old lads a thing or two.

Joking aside lads, speaking from experience, a 9 has to be able to create as well. I'm a 9 and have played 10 too. i find 10 harder due to not being a great tackler and not having a huge boot but am working on both, I want to be able to interchange next season, I'm doing an Earls on it this summer (getting a big lock to run at you for 45 mins non stop a few days every week!)

A 9 MUST be creative. He also has to have more of an understanding of what goes on in the forwards than the 10. I know all the lineout calls, I write some lineout moves that include plays down the short side 5 metre channel or breaking into openfield off a dummy maul. Off scrums we play the open side of a 8-9 pick a lot with the 7 coming in as an inside option and 12 coming in on a crash while the 10 runs deep and wide.

TOL is actually quite good at executing these kinda plays due to his physicality and speed, his pass however is sloppy and decision making can be poor but at the same time watch BOD's try against Australia where we drew in the last minute.

On top of that the 9 gets the real 'feel' for the game. At times 9 is tedious as you don't get to run with ball in hand very far but it is a hugely underestimated position in how it affects the rest of the team. I've had good games which have impacted the second centre and he has said he found a lot of space and time on the ball due to quick service (which equals unsettled defences- this is the most important thing in attacking rugby-full stop) I have had bad games where ball carriers haven't made as many yards as they normally would due to my pass being at head level instead of chest or taking steps and the defence not buying it.

9 is one of the most influential and underestimated positions on the pitch in terms of the amount of thinking and tactical nous that needs to be applied. If you have a bad 9, he can make a good 10 look bad, we've all seen that in green now haven't we?

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:No I don't disagree with any of that Notch, but what I do believe is that none of that in anyway diminishes the responsibility that the 10 has, which is to be the primary play maker and the guy who controls the game.

But neither do I

Well of course you don't, you're hardly likely to disagree with yourself ....and as I don't particularly either and am obviously in total agreement with myself then all we need to square the circle is for you to not disagree with me and then we can carry on looking forward until tomorrows big game....

Alternatively we could agree to disagree, although no one particularly disagrees with anyone anyway....

Either way everyones a winner .

I think 8, 9 and 10 are the pivotal positions in rugby that dictate how you will play. They need to have the basics mastered, ie control at the scrum, quick ball, and a clever kicking game. They all need to be decent players, and in today's game, offer something extra.

I think a rubbish 8, 9 and 10 sticks out like a sore thumb. An 8 who can't control the scrum, even on the retreat, is useless. A 9 who can't provide quick service, is useless. A 10 who can't control the game is especially useless.

Rory, I would have said hooker is as important, you feic up the lineout and scrum you're useless.

Yeah definitely, but I mean with regards to how your back line is going to play. Nowadays you need a good front row, the scrum is becoming so important. You need a hooker who again can nail the basics at the scrum/line out, and be mobile around the park.

It is the 8, 9 and 10 axis that I think sparks the attack off the set piece. They must have the basics mastered for their positions.

Aye but truth be told Thomond any old donkey with 20/20 vision and a bit of a belly on him can play hooker. .....

I don't think any position is more important than the other btw, but I think some positions are more difficult than others, and it is easier to look good in certain positions (why do you think there are so many good flankers? ) but in other positions, you make a mistake and it can change the entire game. 10 especially.

Yeah I agree with Rory.... its a given that you need a set piece platform and the Hooker is cucial to that but its the 8, 9 10 axis that links the backs and forwards and is the key unit which dictates how you are going to play.... you could add 12 in there too but I decided not to to wind up Notch.......

I thought about throwing 12 in there too, but then I realised that NZ would use a big 12, while Australia would use a clever 12. Both play a fast paced game. Wales too, using a big 12. I don't think the 12 is as important, and I think you should have a strike runner at either 12 or 13 (my preference is a 13 to do this) but ultimately they won't slow down or speed up the game IMO. Unless you're Gordon D'Arcy.

Whether you are a second playmaker or break the gain line, you are still creating opportunities.

Well we've lived with a pretty average halfback for years although had a long string of useful flyhalves to compensate. But watch out if Smith is given some space by his AB forwards and he is allowed to unleash that quick pass of his to either Carter or SBW running flat at the line.

Interesting to see Earls and BOD switching positions. Not so sure it will stop the offloads or inside balls that will inevitably be thrown around tomorrow.

Rory, Nonu is a big lad but before we had Smith often our OC would be the big lad and our 12 would be the silky smooth passer / runner / kicker like Maguer, Little (Walter). The important thing is to have balance in your side. One monster on one wing and one no nonsense guy on the other to steady the ship. etc.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Well we've lived with a pretty average halfback for years although had a long string of useful flyhalves to compensate. But watch out if Smith is given some space by his AB forwards and he is allowed to unleash that quick pass of his to either Carter or SBW running flat at the line.

Interesting to see Earls and BOD switching positions. Not so sure it will stop the offloads or inside balls that will inevitably be thrown around tomorrow.

Rory, Nonu is a big lad but before we had Smith often our OC would be the big lad and our 12 would be the silky smooth passer / runner / kicker like Maguer, Little (Walter). The important thing is to have balance in your side. One monster on one wing and one no nonsense guy on the other to steady the ship. etc.

Yeah that is what I mean mate. You still play a fast paced game, regardless of who is the big guy at 12/13 and who is the brains. I prefer having a second playmaker at 12, but it doesn't matter as long as the balance is right. Though Nonu does have both the brains and the brawn to be fair.

His power is in his dreads. Like Samson, if they were to go so would his power. Then we'd be left with just his intelligence.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Interesting to see Earls and BOD switching positions. Not so sure it will stop the offloads or inside balls that will inevitably be thrown around tomorrow.

Rory, Nonu is a big lad but before we had Smith often our OC would be the big lad and our 12 would be the silky smooth passer / runner / kicker like Maguer, Little (Walter). The important thing is to have balance in your side. One monster on one wing and one no nonsense guy on the other to steady the ship. etc.

hear hear kia! I've been saying that for yonks, much to the dismay of several of my online compatriates.... in fairness these things tend to carry a tad less credibility when I say them.......

And he would still be the best 12 in the world.

Looking forward to Jane coming back rodders. He fits the latter category I mentioned and is seriously underrated. More fend in him than a Hummer front bumper.

Glad to see Nonu being rested this series against Ireland Rory. I'm a big fan of him and think he needs a rest. Get him fired up and unleash him in the 4N and bring on SBW for s**ts and giggles in the final 20.

Rodders - do you not think Gilroy is similar to Jane? He is deceptively strong. He always beats a couple of defenders.

Whats happening with Hosea Gear Kia?...have to say I thought he was the best winger around. Surprised he's fallen off the radar. That guy is a beast . I remember Luke Fitzgerald, whos a decent defender, couldn't deal with him at all a few seasons ago.

I fear Sonny Bill more than Nonu too. He's not as quick but his strength and ability to offload makes him even more dangerous in my opinion.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders - do you not think Gilroy is similar to Jane? He is deceptively strong. He always beats a couple of defenders.

Hmm maybe Rory... I'd rather just let Gilroy develop at his own pace rather than compare him to others. Very unlucky not to tour though based on his recent form versus others.

I don't mean to compare him quality wise - just his playing style. He has such a good hand off, to top off his illusive running game.

Maybe, he reminds me of the Paul brothers in RL....... He's a bit like that ex England fullback Matt Perry too.... probably before your time Rory

Needs to get better at linking with support players though.... his haircut isn't the best either....

The haircut is what gives him that deceptive strength though. Nobody expects such a powerful shove from a guy with THAT hair!

...you could be right on that one Rory......

I'm not sure 8 has much of a say on how the backs perform. Yeah he controls the back of the scrum but how many scrums are there compared to rucks AND lineouts. I think the 9-10 combo is essential to attack.

He isn't as important, but I think he is essential at the scrum. It is something people take for granted I think, but firstly general control at the back of the scrum is important, and it takes a lot of awareness to know when to pick and go, when to let your scrum half pick from the base, if you are going to pick and offload etc. If you watch an 8, they do this multiple times in the game.

In the rucks, often the forwards will pick and drive, or you will see forwards in the back line, the 9/10 trying to put their big ball carriers into space etc. It isn't as structured as it would be off the set piece.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I'm not sure 8 has much of a say on how the backs perform. Yeah he controls the back of the scrum but how many scrums are there compared to rucks AND lineouts. I think the 9-10 combo is essential to attack.

Well I think he's important from the point of view that if he and the SH aren't on the same wavelength you lose that bit of cohesion between the backs and forwards, for instance your 8 needs to know when to pick and go from the scrum, tap and go at penalties and when and when not to carry ball. There's definitely a combination there that needs to click for the team to function in attack.

I think that is all more scrum centred is it not, realistically he has the same responsibility carrying-wise as 3 or 4 others in the pack. In general play (which is most of the game) I think he isn't central to attack.

I fully agree that controlling the ball at the base of the scrum is an undervalued skill though, Parise is a sicko at this!

In open play he would have the same responsibility yes, but as rodders said, at the back of the scrum he needs to be both in control and on the same wavelength as his scrum half. A good clever 8 like Parisse can be a real threat off the back of the scrum, as he can create some real options for the back line. Read is another genius at that.

Yes it is a bit scrum centred but that is still a big part of the game.

The no 8 is certainly pivotal in attack in my view... in fact a good no 8 should be aiming to take the opposition flankers out of the game to create opportunties for the backs.

All the top no 8's Reid, Heaslip, Parisse, Picamoles are fundimental to their teams attacking play...or at least should be.....

Well not sure it's a wavelength thing, I think it is just reading the situation (how the scrum is going and what the opposition backrow are doing) and giving a call either to pick or pass or what ever. most of the time there is a set move where the scrumhalf has already said this is my ball or if we get on top go openside.

It's not entirely off the cuff if you get me?

The scrum is a big part of attack but with lineout, openplay, counterattacking, turnovers it is well less than 20% IMO. 8's are important to attack but no more than other players other than in the scrum attack.

If we were purely talking about attacking off a scrum they would be the most important player IMO where as we have all said 10 and then 9 are the most important to your teams attack