Why is Gatland good for Wales and worthy of sacking by Ireland?

And is it Kidney or the IRFU board which is just bad?

First of all Gatland was 10 years ago, he might have been harshly treated at the time alright but I don't see what that has to do with Kidney whatsoever. Kidney is largely to blame, even if our players aren't "good enough" he is not helping them by playing a game that doesn't suit their strengths.

You don't think Gatland has improved as a coach since leaving Ireland? He's clearly a better coach now than then. We all (hopefully) learn and get better at what we do throughout our careers.

I've heard he was undermined by has Assistant Coach at the time, Eddie O'Sullivan, who had an eye on his job. Which he duly got.

You may not know but the Irish sacking of Gatland is quite a notorious affair. Reputedly EOS, Gats' assistant at the time, went behind his back to badmouth him to the IRFU and persuade them that the Irish top job ought to go to an Irishman (aka himself). Prior to that Ireland had been faring pretty well under Gats' direction, indeed he helped unearth some of their golden patch that would carry them into the next decade, so his sacking was a big surprise at the time.

Who knows what would have happened otherwise but their loss is our gain

Eddie "Dagger" O'Sullivan. What goes around, comes around... as seen by his employment track record since he parted ways with Ireland!

Unfortunately this board isn't old enough nor has it the facility to retrieve poststhat far back.

But I can recall Welsh posters 18 months ago generally criticising Gatland. And summary execution would have been the most pleasant way of disposing of Shaun Edwards.

Twelve months hence will England fans be baying for Lancaster's blood, Declan being lauded as a Saint and Gats being pummelled once again?

Portnoy wrote:Unfortunately this board isn't old enough nor has it the facility to retrieve poststhat far back.

But I can recall Welsh posters 18 months ago generally criticising Gatland. And summary execution would have been the most pleasant way of disposing of Shaun Edwards.

Twelve months hence will England fans be baying for Lancaster's blood, Declan being lauded as a Saint and Gats being pummelled once again?

Probably Portnoy. Coaches can go from hero to zero in a few games.

In Kidney's case though, he obviously only knows how to coach a team to play one way. Kick, chase, defend. It worked in the past and worked especially well in 2009 during the ELV's when every team was playing that way, because running the ball was too risky. Everyone was playing that way and Ireland came out on top because they had the best players, and a coach who was in his element with that style of play. But the IRB have gone some way to penalizing this negative play (and rightly so) with the tackle law changes and will continue to try and move the game towards attacking rugby. Most teams have changed tactics. Kidney and PDV of South Africa didn't change at all. And both had poor World Cups and have dropped in the rankings. South Africans can be relieved PDV is gone and now they can move on. We're still stuck with Kidney.

Kidney has no idea how to coach a team to play the modern attacking game. No team he has ever coached has played that way. The idea is alien to him. So while Leinster tear defences to shreds with the best attacking rugby in Europe, Ireland just keep kicking the ball up in the air and running after it. And we all know the results.

I think Gatland fell out with EOS, as well as some of the main players. I know Keith Wood couldn't stand him. This was affecting performances and results.

Opinions in these parts tend to be fickle. I for one never called for Gatland's exit, I might have disagreed with some of his selections and I'll probably do so again in future but I continue to think he's the best option out there for us and it'd be foolish to sack him. Am glad to see the WRU have supported him all the way thus far.

You'll generally stumble across reactionism everywhere based on a coach's results. The Irish were happy with Kidney when he had the best possible start with them in 09, whereas now the consensus is that his gameplan doesn't befit the players. The same could be said of Johnson as he made gradual progress with England from 09 to last year and then went downhill almost at the speed of light in NZ.

Any coach seems destined for criticism in some quarters even if he's not doing much wrong. Some of it's justified and some isn't. It's the way of the world. I personally don't read too much into it and choose to believe that under most circumstances a side is as good as their results indicate full stop.

I don't know why Irelands fans are bashing Kidney, he is doing the best he can.

Face it guys you had a very special generation of players, the type that rarely comes along, O'Gara, Stringer, O'Driscoll, Paul O'Connell, Wallace, etc. It's very rare to get that much talent in an Irish team, in fact it has never happened before in your history. Sadly they are all old now and on the verge of retirement, and no offence but their replacements are not as good as them.

In fact over the years how many games has O'Gara won with a last minute drop goal? Now Ireland tend to get edged out of close games. you had a golden generation but now it's gone.

AlynDavies, I don't even think you believe that Kidney is bringing the best out of this team. If you have watched any irish rugby this year, both provincial and international matches, you would see that is rubbish. I think you know that yourself though.

I also recall welsh posters criticising everything Gatland did. Now that he has a back line of giants at his disposal, his relatively simple game plan can flourish. Also, I don't mean to open a can of worms, but the quality of teams like Ireland and France have not been good recently.

Gatland made some disastrous selection calls when he was at Ireland. He was far too focused on nullifying the opposition strengths rather than promoting the strengths within his own the team. With the opposition changing every game the stop/start selections never allowed any real team continuity. Eddie O'Sullivan was the polar opposite who never changed the side. The answer of course lay somewhere in between and Gatland has learned that in the intervening decade. Both were fairly autocratic.

Kidney's approach is far more socialist by delegating a lot of the responsibility to the team but strictly within his view of how Ireland should play rugby. This unfortunately neither takes into account the opposition nor the strengths of his own players. The same players who are blossoming at club level look confused when they aren't allowed to use the same skillset at Test level.

The test of a coach is to see young exciting players selected for the first time develop into better players. Gatland is now doing that with his charges while Kidney unfortunately isn't.

In light of recent events perhaps John kirwin isnt as bad a coach as some people thought only a fortnight ago.

Portnoy wrote:Unfortunately this board isn't old enough nor has it the facility to retrieve poststhat far back.

But I can recall Welsh posters 18 months ago generally criticising Gatland. And summary execution would have been the most pleasant way of disposing of Shaun Edwards.

Twelve months hence will England fans be baying for Lancaster's blood, Declan being lauded as a Saint and Gats being pummelled once again?

You are right, he was widely criticised. But as mentioned, the game changes but his tactics or selections didn't. He sacrificed the 2010 AI's and 2011 Six Nations to unearth some new players. Results wise it didn't go down well obviously. During the world cup warm-ups spanning from the Barbarians game to the England one we played a lot of inexperienced guys but they shone. However a number of these guys were ready a lot sooner but Gats never made the call. He took the risk for the world cup and it payed off. Now everyone is smiling again .

Also taking these guys to Spala for training has done absolute wonders for their strength and fitness.

I am sure you will be hearing 'where is plan B' pretty soon though.

AlynDavies wrote:In fact over the years how many games has O'Gara won with a last minute drop goal? Now Ireland tend to get edged out of close games. you had a golden generation but now it's gone.

it's probably to do with his tactics, selection policy and failure to develop any kind of consistency. Ireland always had average players in this so called 'Golden Generation' but we had tactics that got the best out of them and let our 2 or 3 world class players run riot. We still have a team of some average players, some good players and 2 or 3 world beaters. And they look like a scratch team.

But yeah, you keep on not watching our games and then coming with great stories in your head

I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

Which applies to Wales too. I think their back row is highly overrated and made to look better than it is. I mean what separates Lydiate from say, Kevin McLaughlin at Leinster? They play the same role, and McLaughlin has stood out more for me in the club game. Faletau is good for the Dragons but plays a very defensive role for Wales. They are pretty weak in terms of carrying, yet that role is filled by their backs. If Wales didn't have such huge and speedy backs at their disposal, their back row wouldn't function at all IMO. That is the game plan that suits Wales atm though.

With the exception of Warburton of course who would be a bonus to any team, and any game plan IMO. He is truly world class.

I don't think Lydiate and Faletau are world beaters or the best in their positions in the 6 Nations but as a unit and for Wales they work incredibly well. We have two good open-sides who are the stand outs. Ryan Jones of old seems to be back and here to stay, so he could also be up there with the best in his position which is 6 or 8.

Exactly, but the reason they work as a unit for Wales is because of the welsh backs. They take away a lot of the work required by most other back row forwards. They don't have half as much to do as O'Brien/Ferris etc. A lot is said about the balance of the welsh back row, but I say it is more because of how effective their backs are. Also I think Ryan Jones should be starting over Lydiate if I am honest. Offers everything Lydiate does and more.

I guess an easy way of putting it would be that you could substitute Lydiate for any other 6 featured in the 6 nations (evidence being that he wasn't missed one bit in the Ireland game, and Jones had a stormer of a game) and you could substitute Faletau for Denton, Morgan, or whoever. They would be just as effective if not more.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Exactly, but the reason they work as a unit for Wales is because of the welsh backs. They take away a lot of the work required by most other back row forwards. They don't have half as much to do as O'Brien/Ferris etc. A lot is said about the balance of the welsh back row, but I say it is more because of how effective their backs are. Also I think Ryan Jones should be starting over Lydiate if I am honest. Offers everything Lydiate does and more.

The problem being that Warburton loves playing alongside Lydiate - Warbs produces his best rugby with Lydiate alongside him. Ryan Jones is a better allround player and is in the best form I have ever seen from any player to be honest.

But that Lydiate - Warburton partnership is the reason R.Jones is the most unlucky player to sit on the bench for Wales.

Faletau actually carries a lot for Wales (he is usually on top of the carries stats) - and with our 6 + 7 not big carriers (or AWJ or Charteris though Evans and Davies are) - we need Faletau to play to carry, Ryan Jones doesn't carry as effectively at 8, although his allround game is better than Faletau at 8. So once again, R.Jones is the unlucky man to be on the bench as Faletau is needed to nullify the weaknesses of his 6 + 7.

Still, he's a fantastic player to have on the bench - based on recent performances, one of the best backrow replacements around.

I think he loves to play with those 6 foot 4 backs behind him honestly, rather than partnering Lydiate. Any blindside flanker can do what Lydiate does. The unseen work and tackling. As I said before, in what way is Lydiate better than McLaughlin, a similar player?

I realise Faletau makes a good few carries, but they aren't all that effective. For the Dragons I have seen him tear the place up at times, with a beautiful offloading game and just showing a lot more dynamism than he does for Wales. Again, his carrying duties are not needed because of Roberts, Davies, North, Cuthbert, etc.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he loves to play with those 6 foot 4 backs behind him honestly, rather than partnering Lydiate. Any blindside flanker can do what Lydiate does. The unseen work and tackling. As I said before, in what way is Lydiate better than McLaughlin, a similar player?

McLaughlin can't read Warburton's mind

Mystic Dan?

wales606 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he loves to play with those 6 foot 4 backs behind him honestly, rather than partnering Lydiate. Any blindside flanker can do what Lydiate does. The unseen work and tackling. As I said before, in what way is Lydiate better than McLaughlin, a similar player?

McLaughlin can't read Warburton's mind

Neither can Lydiate. Luckily for him though, he plays with a world class 7 and with a huge back line.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he loves to play with those 6 foot 4 backs behind him honestly, rather than partnering Lydiate. Any blindside flanker can do what Lydiate does. The unseen work and tackling. As I said before, in what way is Lydiate better than McLaughlin, a similar player?

You havent got a scooby doo about backrow play have you cos thats a most childlike assessment, you dont have the correct stats clearly or are trying to ignore them from the 6 Nations and RWC.

Faletau who you claim plays a defensive game for Wales and doesnt carry much was Wales top carrying forward in the 6 Nations as well as top tackler.

As for your ongoing campaign against Lydiate it borders on the obsessive. you dismiss his tackle rate which is second only to Faletau in the welsh team during the six nations and top during the RWC, you claim any blindisde can dpo the unseen work on the floor or at the breakdown? actually they cant, Ryan Jones cant and has never been able to great player that he is. If they could every blindside would be a proto Richard Hill.

ITs been said before by a number of posters that the balance of the welsh backrow works, but I will point you to the last twice wales have beaten Ireland. The backrow performance in the RWC by wales with Lydiate, completly outplayed and out thought the Irish trio and it was there that the game was won for wales. Just to remimd you Lydiate made 24 tackles missing none, twice that of the top Irish tackler Ferris who also managed to miss one of his 12.

Against Ireland in the Six Nations with Ryan at six, the backrow may have been more athletic but they were not able to impose themselves in the same way as they had in the Autumn. We beat you that time because of some beautifully crafted and skilled backplay (you know those players who are just big lumps and not skillfull as you put it in another thread.)

Lydiate has won a grand slam, got to a RWC semifinal, won three MoM awards in the process and a player of the tournamemt to boot. McLaughlin outplayed three times by the Ospreys this year is not even the best blindside in Ireland. Maybe just maybe, if you started watching rugby without the green tinge of Ireland or the Blue tinge of Leinster you might actually learn somthing about how rugby is played, because at the moment you quite simply have a schoolboy understanding of backrow play.

Notch wrote:I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

You know notch I have had run ins with you over the last few years but generally i wouldn't disagree with you too much or gave such a different opinion. But this last statement is the biggest load of Shiite written by you bar none.

So lets hear the weaknesses for these players...

Lets see Wallace not a groundhog, yet he won his fair share of ball on the ground and was probably one of the best all round flankers of the last ten years.
ROG lets see bad dwfense, couldnt get his backline moving, yet was outhalf when Ireland scored tries regularly from the backline and indeed was joint top try scorer in 07. Defence has never been amajor issues with him when compared say to old or young Humphries per se.
Stringer...no break, granted but was a major reason behind our try scoring abilities and a younger stringer would be a well one addition to our current squad.

Oh and just to add they were all part of the team that has the best win ratio of an Irish team won a few triple crowns and a grand slam if you hadn't noticed.

Before I read the rest of your dribble, I will firstly point out that your condescending behaviour is pathetic. Now I will read your points.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Before I read the rest of your dribble, I will firstly point out that your condescending behaviour is pathetic. Now I will read your points.

The truth hurts, your lack of objectivity and any demonstrable understanding is annoying too I can assure you.

Just to add its kind of sad that you can't acknowledge their contribution as the best players of their generation during a good time for Irish rugby...pity

DOD wrote:

Notch wrote:I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

You know notch I have had run ins with you over the last few years but generally i wouldn't disagree with you too much or gave such a different opinion. But this last statement is the biggest load of Shiite written by you bar none.

Sorry Notch old pal ... but I'm with the DODster on this one .... thats the biggest load of Tom Kite you've ever written

Okay here we go:

1) I said that Faletau carries a lot, but not effectively, for Wales. He does not play for Wales the same way he does for the Dragons. I did not say he doesn't carry, but he doesn't carry as effectively. He has his backs to do this for him. It is quite obvious he plays a more defensive game for Wales.

2) Obsessive? Grow up.

3) Don't try and say I haven't seen the stats, as I myself already have pointed out countless times that O'Brien made the same tackle count as Lydiate, with less game time. Ferris made more tackles than either, by a pretty large amount. Faletau also made the same amount as Lydiate. You point out one game where Lydiate made more tackles. I just pointed out an entire series where Ferris made more (excluding the first game, as Lydiate did not feature). In fact I have had many of your welsh brethren scream at me for using these stats, which don't tell the full story.

4) I played rugby in the back row. Probably played the same role as Lydiate actually. Never carried much, had a huge tackle count, did that "unseen" work. What rugby have you played? So far all I have witnessed on these forums is your grumpy analysis and having a dig at others. I find it hard to take your opinions seriously.

5) Also, I am an Ulster fan, not a Leinster one. I respect Leinster as a team, and respect that they are much better than Ulster and the European champions. So enough with your moronic assumptions and trying to belittle people.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Before I read the rest of your dribble, I will firstly point out that your condescending behaviour is pathetic. Now I will read your points.

The truth hurts, your lack of objectivity and any demonstrable understanding is annoying too I can assure you.

Well the truth is, you are a very unpleasant poster on these forums from my experiences. You have to resort to personal insults and little digs to make your point known. I find that pretty sad honestly. I think it says a lot more about you than me.

To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

Also, trying to call me biased when I am saying I rate a welsh back row player (Ryan Jones) higher than Lydiate? And that Warburton is world class? Where is the irish bias there? And you say I don't look at things objectively..

Morgannwg wrote:To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

They would be a bit surplus to requirements at the moment. But they certainly would have been useful when we used to have Powell and JT in the same backrow...or Robin Sowden Taylor.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Before I read the rest of your dribble, I will firstly point out that your condescending behaviour is pathetic. Now I will read your points.

The truth hurts, your lack of objectivity and any demonstrable understanding is annoying too I can assure you.

Well the truth is, you are a very unpleasant poster on these forums from my experiences. You have to resort to personal insults and little digs to make your point known. I find that pretty sad honestly. I think it says a lot more about you than me.

Argument rating :

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Before I read the rest of your dribble, I will firstly point out that your condescending behaviour is pathetic. Now I will read your points.

The truth hurts, your lack of objectivity and any demonstrable understanding is annoying too I can assure you.

Well the truth is, you are a very unpleasant poster on these forums from my experiences. You have to resort to personal insults and little digs to make your point known. I find that pretty sad honestly. I think it says a lot more about you than me.

I find your constant invective directed against welsh players offensive tbh even in threads that have absolutely nothing to do with the welsh. The stats are quite clear, so are the honours lydiate has won internationally in a successful welsh side that is why I question your objectivity and understanding of backrow play, funnily I played blindside too and I know the difference between a proven quality international and a good provincial player.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Before I read the rest of your dribble, I will firstly point out that your condescending behaviour is pathetic. Now I will read your points.

The truth hurts, your lack of objectivity and any demonstrable understanding is annoying too I can assure you.

Well the truth is, you are a very unpleasant poster on these forums from my experiences. You have to resort to personal insults and little digs to make your point known. I find that pretty sad honestly. I think it says a lot more about you than me.

I find your constant invective directed against welsh players offensive tbh even in threads that have absolutely nothing to do with the welsh. The stats are quite clear, so are the honours lydiate has won internationally in a successful welsh side that is why I question your objectivity and understanding of backrow play, funnily I played blindside too and I know the difference between a proven quality international and a good provincial player.

Argument rating :

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

They would be a bit surplus to requirements at the moment. But they certainly would have been useful when we used to have Powell and JT in the same backrow...or Robin Sowden Taylor.

True. Maybe we will see if Turnbull is any good on saturday. Those were the bad old times when we had one decent enough back-row with absolutely awful back-ups; gone are those days thank god.
And as well as Turnbull there is also McCusker who I rate pretty highly along with that open-side Dan Thomas also coming through the Scarlets academy and Wales U20. I'll say it again, the Region out West is the best at churning out the international players.

Morgannwg wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

They would be a bit surplus to requirements at the moment. But they certainly would have been useful when we used to have Powell and JT in the same backrow...or Robin Sowden Taylor.

True. Maybe we will see if Turnbull is any good on saturday. Those were the bad old times when we had one decent enough back-row with absolutely awful back-ups; gone are those days thank god.
And as well as Turnbull there is also McCusker who I rate pretty highly along with that open-side Dan Thomas also coming through the Scarlets academy and Wales U20. I'll say it again, the Region out West is the best at churning out the international players.

You forgot Shinger.

And as for churning out the best internationals - Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthberts, Lloyd Williams, Bradley Davies, Sam Warburton and Gethin Jenkins would like a word

As would Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Ashley Beck and Rhys Webb.

Although the Scarlets seem to be producing all the youngsters at the moment, they haven't displaced the proven guys yet

Oh sorry to offend, just because I don't rate Lydiate as highly as you. Dry your eyes mate.

Please give me an example of where I have did anything of the sort regarding the welsh players. I have had nothing but praise for many welsh players in fact. Yeah the stats are clear, I just gave you them. Many players did what Lydiate did but also carried more, and made more turnovers. That is my opinion on the matter. I pointed out that Lydiate was not missed in the Ireland game, and he wasn't.

I am not just basing this on an anti-welsh agenda which you seem to think, I am making some pretty valid points. All you have done is tell me I am wrong and that I don't understand back row play (as well as insulting me) without actually making any real points. Yep, Lydiate has won a lot with his team. So has Tomas O'Leary.

TycroesOsprey wrote:funnily I played blindside too and I know the difference between a proven quality international and a good provincial player.

You'll understand the difference between playing on the front foot and back foot then and therefore see the futility of comparing the Irish and Welsh backrowers individually based on the past two meetings between the sides. Lets just agree that there are some very good backrowers around right now and neither team would swap there's for the others .

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Oh sorry to offend, just because I don't rate Lydiate as highly as you. Dry your eyes mate.

Please give me an example of where I have did anything of the sort regarding the welsh players. I have had nothing but praise for many welsh players in fact. Yeah the stats are clear, I just gave you them. Many players did what Lydiate did but also carried more, and made more turnovers. That is my opinion on the matter. I pointed out that Lydiate was not missed in the Ireland game, and he wasn't.

I am not just basing this on an anti-welsh agenda which you seem to think, I am making some pretty valid points. All you have done is tell me I am wrong and that I don't understand back row play (as well as insulting me) without actually making any real points. Yep, Lydiate has won a lot with his team. So has Tomas O'Leary.

I think Lydiate was missed in Ireland, despite Ryan's great form - with a one legged Warburton, Lydiate was needed.

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

They would be a bit surplus to requirements at the moment. But they certainly would have been useful when we used to have Powell and JT in the same backrow...or Robin Sowden Taylor.

True. Maybe we will see if Turnbull is any good on saturday. Those were the bad old times when we had one decent enough back-row with absolutely awful back-ups; gone are those days thank god.
And as well as Turnbull there is also McCusker who I rate pretty highly along with that open-side Dan Thomas also coming through the Scarlets academy and Wales U20. I'll say it again, the Region out West is the best at churning out the international players.

You forgot Shinger.

And as for churning out the best internationals - Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthberts, Lloyd Williams, Bradley Davies, Sam Warburton and Gethin Jenkins would like a word

As would Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Ashley Beck and Rhys Webb.

Although the Scarlets seem to be producing all the youngsters at the moment, they haven't displaced the proven guys yet

You have to remember a few of those were established before the REgional set-up. But yeah I see your point. I'd say Scarlets are producing the slicker and more skillful guys atm. The big, powerful guys tend to come from the other three.

I thought that Jones was comfortably the best back row player on the pitch that day. We were criticised for our play at the breakdown, or at least O'Brien certainly was on that day, yet Lydiate apparently is the catalyst in Wales for that, allowing Warburton to play the fetcher role.

rodders wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:funnily I played blindside too and I know the difference between a proven quality international and a good provincial player.

You'll understand the difference between playing on the front foot and back foot then and therefore see the futility of comparing the Irish and Welsh backrowers individually based on the past two meetings between the sides. Lets just agree that there are some very good backrowers around right now and neither team would swap there's for the others .

Have no problem with that, I rate the Irish backrow and dont expect Lydiate to be first choice for the lions next year, I take exception when sombody ignores results, match stats, performances and spouts delusions about a player as if they are fact.

Morgannwg wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

They would be a bit surplus to requirements at the moment. But they certainly would have been useful when we used to have Powell and JT in the same backrow...or Robin Sowden Taylor.

True. Maybe we will see if Turnbull is any good on saturday. Those were the bad old times when we had one decent enough back-row with absolutely awful back-ups; gone are those days thank god.
And as well as Turnbull there is also McCusker who I rate pretty highly along with that open-side Dan Thomas also coming through the Scarlets academy and Wales U20. I'll say it again, the Region out West is the best at churning out the international players.

You forgot Shinger.

And as for churning out the best internationals - Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthberts, Lloyd Williams, Bradley Davies, Sam Warburton and Gethin Jenkins would like a word

As would Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Ashley Beck and Rhys Webb.

Although the Scarlets seem to be producing all the youngsters at the moment, they haven't displaced the proven guys yet

You have to remember a few of those were established before the REgional set-up. But yeah I see your point. I'd say Scarlets are producing the slicker and more skillful guys atm. The big, powerful guys tend to come from the other three.

Scarlets - Hookers, Centres, lots of centres, and a few FHs and no8s
Ospreys - Props, more Props, some more Props.
Blues - Locks, 7s and a fair few wingers.
Dragons - Backrowers.