Why is Gatland good for Wales and worthy of sacking by Ireland?

First topic message reminder :

And is it Kidney or the IRFU board which is just bad?

Do you not see the extreme ignorance and hypocrisy here Tycroes? Really?

*face palm*

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

wales606 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:To be fair McLaughlin (and Jennings whilst we are on the subject) look like pretty useful players. I wouldn't mind if they were Welsh.

*EDIT - the subject of back-row players, I didn't have time to note the arguement.

They would be a bit surplus to requirements at the moment. But they certainly would have been useful when we used to have Powell and JT in the same backrow...or Robin Sowden Taylor.

True. Maybe we will see if Turnbull is any good on saturday. Those were the bad old times when we had one decent enough back-row with absolutely awful back-ups; gone are those days thank god.
And as well as Turnbull there is also McCusker who I rate pretty highly along with that open-side Dan Thomas also coming through the Scarlets academy and Wales U20. I'll say it again, the Region out West is the best at churning out the international players.

You forgot Shinger.

And as for churning out the best internationals - Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthberts, Lloyd Williams, Bradley Davies, Sam Warburton and Gethin Jenkins would like a word

As would Adam Jones, Ryan Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Justin Tipuric, Ashley Beck and Rhys Webb.

Although the Scarlets seem to be producing all the youngsters at the moment, they haven't displaced the proven guys yet

You have to remember a few of those were established before the REgional set-up. But yeah I see your point. I'd say Scarlets are producing the slicker and more skillful guys atm. The big, powerful guys tend to come from the other three.

Scarlets - Hookers, Centres, lots of centres, and a few FHs and no8s
Ospreys - Props, more Props, some more Props.
Blues - Locks, 7s and a fair few wingers.
Dragons - Backrowers.

And that coincides with

Scarlets - Regan King, David Lyons, Stephen Jones, Matthew Rees
Ospreys - Adam Jones, Paul James
Blues - Martyn Williams, Paul Tito, Ben Blair.

Good man Tyroes, Rory...good night lads..play nice now

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Do you not see the extreme ignorance and hypocrisy here Tycroes? Really?

*face palm*

Argument rating :

Well I have given him the stats, I have given my analysis of the games, I have made some reasonable points about the welsh back row, even if they are not agreed with. Yet he says I am the one who refuses to be objective and see these things, and that I state this as fact. Where have I stated it as fact? In fact I probably have finished my points with "in my opinion" as I usually do.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well I have given him the stats, I have given my analysis of the games, I have made some reasonable points about the welsh back row, even if they are not agreed with. Yet he says I am the one who refuses to be objective and see these things, and that I state this as fact. Where have I stated it as fact? In fact I probably have finished my points with "in my opinion" as I usually do.

I don't think either of you are going to convince the other of anything. Just wind each other up.

So I suggest you press the red X button and go to sleep....unless your in Australia where its midday, and sleeping would be weird - so just go outside, and have a barbecue or something, its probably hot there...it usually is.

Yep just checked, I finished my point with "IMO" which is an acronym for "in my opinion". So yep more paranoia from you Tyrcoes. I think I shall leave it here for the night, you can carry on insulting me as an anonymous poster behind the safety of your computer as most brave men do, as much as you please. Have fun.

Jeez, bickering or what. Oh well lets hope they both 'sleep on it'.

Rory I won't argue with you about who is better out of lydiate and Ryan jones as it's your opinion. But having met the welsh backrow and having a meal with them you can see they are best mates and you can see this on the field they compliment each others skill sets on the field and the balance is just right. And as you say there are better 6's (although I think ferris is overrated) but how lydiate plays allows sam to fetch easier. E.g. Lydiates ankle tapping isint as impressive as the full on crunch tackles from ferris but the ankle tackle allows warbs to jackal quickly and effectively.
Compare this to the Irish backrow who have 3 quality players, they don't work as a unit, and they all play in a similar style.

And by the way I do have knowledge of backrow styles being a flanker albeit a young one

rodders wrote:

DOD wrote:

Notch wrote:I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

You know notch I have had run ins with you over the last few years but generally i wouldn't disagree with you too much or gave such a different opinion. But this last statement is the biggest load of Shiite written by you bar none.

Sorry Notch old pal ... but I'm with the DODster on this one .... thats the biggest load of Tom Kite you've ever written

Don't mean to be blunt, but I don't think you've understood the point I'm making. Wallace was never as good at the breakdown or as a linkman as he was as a deadly carrier and physical force of nature around the fringes. O'Gara was never as good in broken play or in attack as he was at dictating territory and controlling things with a sublime array of tactically kicking.

Do you think we would have been as successful if Eddie O'Sullivan had said "Right ROG, go out and try and play like Carlos Spencer on a particularly maverick day. No kicking the ball to the corners! And Wally, don't be taking contact. Just shift the ball on before you take contact- offload the ball asap, no pumping those legs."

Like 99.9% of rugby players they were better at some things than others, and those two guys were exceptional at certain things. Our tactics utilised those strengths, the way we did with every player. You may think I'm being facetious or hyperbolic above but when it comes to how Kidney has utilised certain players it's not too far off the truth.

We've Sexton who suits a certain style of attacking outhalf play and yet is being asked to play like ROG circa 2006. We've had Paddy Wallace deployed as a 13-stone crash ball centre when he's better in a creative role. We've had Earls shunted all over the backline for no good reason. We've had Tom Court playing tighthead!

Round pegs and square holes make our team and players look worse than they actually are.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Exactly, but the reason they work as a unit for Wales is because of the welsh backs. They take away a lot of the work required by most other back row forwards. They don't have half as much to do as O'Brien/Ferris etc. A lot is said about the balance of the welsh back row, but I say it is more because of how effective their backs are. Also I think Ryan Jones should be starting over Lydiate if I am honest. Offers everything Lydiate does and more.

Don't entirely agree if I'm honest. He does offer things that Lydiate doesn't but that's not to say he offers everything Lydiate has. If only in one area Lydiate excels over Jones, it's the tackle. Goes in low and puts in some huge hits on a good day and he makes a lot of effort getting around the park to do so, as exemplified in the latter half of the 6N. Ryan has never had much of a reputation as a physical tackler, he does stay busy but doesn't come into contact quite as hard. He's more known for his carrying, breakdown presence and offloading. Even on the burst he's been showing some flair of late but I don't think it's correct to say he offers everything Lydiate does.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

DOD wrote:

Notch wrote:I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

You know notch I have had run ins with you over the last few years but generally i wouldn't disagree with you too much or gave such a different opinion. But this last statement is the biggest load of Shiite written by you bar none.

Sorry Notch old pal ... but I'm with the DODster on this one .... thats the biggest load of Tom Kite you've ever written

Don't mean to be blunt, but I don't think you've understood the point I'm making. Wallace was never as good at the breakdown or as a linkman as he was as a deadly carrier and physical force of nature around the fringes. O'Gara was never as good in broken play or in attack as he was at dictating territory and controlling things with a sublime array of tactically kicking.

No I know what you mean Notch, every player has their strengths and weaknesses, I don't agree with your choice of terminology so I can see why you got a rise from the DODster.... to call those 3 limited is a bit disrespectful to be fair, you don't win 100 caps if you are a limited player. Wallace in particular was as complete a backrow player as you will ever see, strong in every backrow position.

I do understand your point about playing tactics to suit players strengths but I think if you are incorrect to call those 3 limited, feic if Wally was limited there's not much hope for the rest of us....

To sum up:

Ireland used to have decent players but now they cant hold a candle to their much superior Welsh counterparts.

Whist I agree that Wales are currently a better team than Ireland, I believe that some Welsh are becoming more arrogant than their masters. Having said that, I find the English to be FAR more knowledgeable and respectable than some of the Welsh on here and far less derisory.

Facts:

Wales have beaten Ireland 3 times in a row.
The 6 nations game in Cardiff was won by cheating
The 6 nations game in Dublin was won by getting a shot at goal to win it from a bad call from the ref
Welsh teams have never won a HEC. Ireland have a bazillion.

Truth is, we are not as bad a team as you think and you are not as good as you think yourselves to be.

Best of luck in Oz. I will be cheering for Wales as I always do, despite the numpties you meet on here.

What the feck has Dan Lydyate and any Irish backrower got to do with Gatland being worthy for Wales and worthy of a sacking by Ireland ? Jeeze, some posters on here are soooooo precious.

I really couldnt be arsed to read back.

However there are a few things:

1 - Gatland came to Wales as an established coach who had Heineken Cup and English Premiership winners medals to his credit. He was very much an unproven coach when he was with Ireland.

2 - Gatland delivered instant success at Wales. By winning the Grand Slam in 2008 he bought himself time and something that he could point to in tough times. He did not do that for Ireland.

3 - Gatland has a steady partnership with Shaun Edwards and Rob Howley and the team work in tandem to succeed. With Ireland, Gatland had Eddie O'Sullivan who was simply using his position as Assistant Coach to get Gatlands position.

These for me are the contrasting reasons between him being sacked from Ireland and succeeding with Wales.

All hail our supreme Welsh overlords

Spoiler:

Notch wrote:I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

I dont mean to be rude Notch but WTF, Stringer a 1 trick pony? David Wallace and ROG Averages players?

Every rugby player has their strengths and weakness' and it takes a good coach to utilise that and design their tactics around them.

Wasnt it just two years ago that ROG was awarded the ERC European Player Award, crediting him as the player who had made the greatest contribution to European Rugby since the outset of the Heineken Cup? Hardly average. I have watched ROG over his whole career and there is much more to him than just tactical kicking. Look how many tries he has scored and set up over the years.

Stringer, possibly one of the best scrum halves Ireland has ever produced and in his pomp, better than the current crop i feel.

David Wallace, Well i simply have no words, possibly one of the most complete players ever in world rugby.

Sorry if i have totally missed your point but i am quite shocked by what you have written.

Notch wrote:

We've Sexton who suits a certain style of attacking outhalf play and yet is being asked to play like ROG circa 2006. We've had Paddy Wallace deployed as a 13-stone crash ball centre when he's better in a creative role. We've had Earls shunted all over the backline for no good reason. We've had Tom Court playing tighthead!

Round pegs and square holes make our team and players look worse than they actually are.

Er just to note in the 05-06-07 seasons ROG himself scored 6 tries. The backline was scoring tries for fun in the 6ns. We beat SA and AUS at home, in the tour to NZ we lost both tests but were a lot more competitive than recently. (34-23 and 27-12). I dont think all that was from ROG kicking to the corners.

Don't mean to be rude, but people seem to be reading too much into my choice of words and not actually thinking about the point. I can't think think of a single player off the top of my head who doesn't have weaknesses in his game. Jonah Lomu had weaknesses in his game. Brian O'Driscoll has weaknesses in his game. Every player who has played for Ireland in my lifetime has limitations. Hardly disrespectful to point that out. Those limitations were not exposed because players were asked to play their natural games, not try and be something they are not.

David Wallace was a world class player. O'Gara, at his best, was also a good international player. Both players were able to perform at their best for Ireland because the tactics suited their strengths. If they were asked to play a game that didn't suit them, they wouldn't look as good.

So are you saying we didnt have a high try scoring backline and that we didnt play an open brand of rugby in say 05-07 when O'Gara was 10? Clearly it was a weakness in his game so we must have scored all our tries from linout mauls (even ROG scored about 5 from them apparently).

I think i get what you are saying Notch. Just a little suprised as to how you chose to say it

Notch regardless of the point you were making, if you were to suggest that I was an "average and limited" 606v2 poster I'd be rather peeved.......

No thats your straw man argument, not mine. O'Gara was in good attacking form them, as was the rest of our backline. That doesn't change the style of player he was/is. I'm not going to pigeonhole him as a player, he was well able to exploit space when we played a tempo that created it in front of him. That doesn't mean he would have been just as good if instructed to keep every ball in hand.

Most of our attacking was done from the right areas of the pitch. Just because we converted a lot of tries doesn't mean we didn't ask him to play a territorial game when we needed him to. And that's not a criticism; it's a massive strength. It's a massive compliment to O'Gara as a player he was able to play his natural game and shine in attack as well.

Seriously; am I meant to say every Ireland player ever is perfect when there is no such thing as the perfect rugby player? EVERY PLAYER has something in his arsenal that another player does better. EVERY PLAYER has elements of the game that are stronger than others. I don't see why it's so ridiculous to suggest that Ireland were a better team when our tactics suited the strengths of our players as opposed to playing towards their weaknesses

rodders wrote:Notch regardless of the point you were making, if you were to suggest that I was an "average and limited" 606v2 poster I'd be rather peeved.......

Hold on a second, don't misquote me.

I said Stringer was average, limited. And he was, he was exceptional at one skill and had very few other skills to his bow. I rate Stringer higher than any current Irish scrum-half but we haven't had quality in that position... ever. I said he looked great because our tactics suited the strongest part of his game. I then said the same thing was true to an extent of O'Gara and Wallace. That our tactics suited their strengths as players NOT that they were "average and limited."

Notch wrote:I mean you're citing Stringer as a special player. Seriously? He is and was a one trick pony and an average player who we got the best out of by letting him do what he does best and playing to his strengths. Same is true of David Wallace and Ronan O'Gara to an extent. Both were really good at certain facets of their position but weak at others. Their weaknesses were never exposed because we had good tactics in place.

Notch I'm not misquoting you, thats what you said.... maybe not what you meant, but its what you said....

It's ambiguous at best. Clearly I've been misunderstood and I apologise.

The same is true of them in that we got the best out of them by playing to their strengths.

Notch

Notch has a validf point.
We did well because we played to those players strengths and hid their weaknesses.

We seem to be doing the reverse these days.

I think he has a point about Stringer and ROG. For example, ROG being covered in defence, Stringer being known for a brilliant passing game but not offering much in attack.. though I don't agree about Wallace. He was the complete flanker IMO.

One of my favourite ever players Rory. What we did so well was identify what he was good at and tailor our backrow to using those skills. How many times have we heard "but he's not a real 7!" about him? Didn't matter so long as he kept performing like he was.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he has a point about Stringer and ROG. For example, ROG being covered in defence, Stringer being known for a brilliant passing game but not offering much in attack.. though I don't agree about Wallace. He was the complete flanker IMO.

I always thought Wallace was the complete 6 - but never a true 7, Ireland haven't had an out-and-out 7 for a long time - even their regions seem to play with a different style of 7 to everyone else (mabye its just the Irish 7...basically a 6 but with a 7 on his shirt)

Yeah I definitely see your point. You could say that Munster used Quinlan to allow Wallace to play to his strengths. As Wallace progressed in his career however, I think he was the perfect 7. He could do it all honestly, in a McCaw-esque fashion. I miss him!

wales606 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he has a point about Stringer and ROG. For example, ROG being covered in defence, Stringer being known for a brilliant passing game but not offering much in attack.. though I don't agree about Wallace. He was the complete flanker IMO.

I always thought Wallace was the complete 6 - but never a true 7, Ireland haven't had an out-and-out 7 for a long time - even their regions seem to play with a different style of 7 to everyone else (mabye its just the Irish 7...basically a 6 but with a 7 on his shirt)

All 7s play differently, despite this "true" 7 business. A 7 should be first to the breakdown off the set piece IMO, but after that he can't be expected to follow the ball everywhere. That is a waste IMO, as that role should be shared by the team. Warburton was described as a 6.5, but now he is possibly my favourite 7 (despite being injury prone). McCaw has a much more balanced game nowadays, and recently I saw an interview by Brussow where he describes himself and Pocock as similar players (following the ball religiously). He doesn't think McCaw plays the same game though, as he plays a much more rounded game.

IMO Wallace was a 7 through and through. The best one Ireland has ever had (at least since I started watching the game). He has been missed for sure. I don't think our backrow has looked the same without him.

I don't believe that David Wallace could be described as anything other than a complete player. In fact it was his completeness as a player that made him so good. By contrast your traditional 7 is anything but a complete player but is selected on the openside for a very particular and specific skill set.

Wallace could do pretty much everything to a high standard but such was the quality of his ball carrying he was rarely securing ball so much as carrying it himself and much to the benefit of every team he played for .

I don't believe that that Gats was ever a bad coach. He might have been screwed up by EOS who had the ear of the IRFU board who went surfing away on a wave of Paddy power in the days of the Celtic Tiger economy.

The results speak for themselves to me: In terms of 6Ns performance and players available in the period since 2005, I'd say that Ireland should have won at least three 6Ns (not necessarily GSs) with the players available (assuming France were still on acid) is all down to a disastrous sacking of Gatland.

Mind you I still prefer to see my ship going down all guns blazing with an Englishman at the helm...

I agree, Gatland did a good job with Ireland when he was coach and was shafted before the fruits of his labours came to bloom. I don't think he was ever a bad coach but I do still think he's a better coach now than he was.

this thread has done far more to prove to me the theory of Irish/Welsh rivalry than any comment so the press by the players in this years 6N

It has shown me how precious some of those welsh boys can be more than anything..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It has shown me how precious some of those welsh boys can be more than anything..

Now that is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Seriously SOME of you Irish on here must read one thing and think they mean something else If anybody say's anything untoward about Ireland or it's provinces then it is guns at dawn with you lot. Also lets not get started with Kidney or NIQ players or we will all get tarred and feathered. If it is one thing I have learned on here, it is disagree with an Irish man at your own peril, some of you lot on here are so precious when it comes to your rugby, and you all know what to do about your national side I am surprised that half of you on here have not thrown your hat into the ring to coach Ireland after Kidney has gone. I shall wait for now for the three hundred more posts on here with you all telling me how wrong I am and you all trying to justify your argument to one and other until the cows come home. Now that is what I call precious.

Please tell me where anyone has been precious about irish players/anything irish in this thread..

Stringer
O' Gara
The whole Irish backrow

Take your pick, you've all been arguing about them whilst bringing poor old Dan Lydiate into the argument and none of them has anything to do with the topic of this thread.

Stringer/O'Gara have been defended by Munster fans, from one other irish fan. They didn't insult anyone in defending him either, which is more than what I can say for your welsh brethren. You mention the whole irish back row, but I haven't even seen anyone talk about them, bar Wallace who is retired. I mentioned the welsh back row looking better than it is because of the backs, and that is why they work. The carrying duties are mainly carried out by their backs, giving them less to do. That is how Gatland has his team play, so yes it was on topic.

David Wallace was the best 7 playing in Britain or Ireland since Neil Back. Martyn Williams was a great player as well, but Wallace was consistently superb for Ireland and Munster for a decade and is going to be sorely missed by us at international level until the coaches decide how they want to accommodate Ferris and O'Brien in the same side.

Peter Stringer had a skill have very few modern scrum halves possess- he can pass, and he can pass quickly. O'Gara massively benefitted from playing with him because Stronger passes the ball in front of the 10 and forces him to make a move forward, rather than the passing of Murray, Reddan and Boss which encourages static ball.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stringer/O'Gara have been defended by Munster fans, from one other irish fan. They didn't insult anyone in defending him either, which is more than what I can say for your welsh brethren. You mention the whole irish back row, but I haven't even seen anyone talk about them, bar Wallace who is retired. I mentioned the welsh back row looking better than it is because of the backs, and that is why they work. The carrying duties are mainly carried out by their backs, giving them less to do. That is how Gatland has his team play, so yes it was on topic.

Hence my quote, that you must read one thing and think it means another.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stringer/O'Gara have been defended by Munster fans, from one other irish fan. They didn't insult anyone in defending him either, which is more than what I can say for your welsh brethren. You mention the whole irish back row, but I haven't even seen anyone talk about them, bar Wallace who is retired. I mentioned the welsh back row looking better than it is because of the backs, and that is why they work. The carrying duties are mainly carried out by their backs, giving them less to do. That is how Gatland has his team play, so yes it was on topic.

So what you are saying is the reason why Gatland was sacked by the IRFU is because of the way he has the Welsh backrow playing together as a unit. Also I agree with the Irish posters on here who say it was probably because EOS was backstabbing him, but I remember on the old boards when some Irish fans were calling for his head because they wanted an Irish coach and they believed that EOS was the brains behind it all. But that is all history now, what we can say though as a matter of fact, that Gatland introduced the likes of O'Driscoll, O'Gara, Stringer and many other into the Irish squad and he is doing the same now with Wales by giving the youngsters a chance, so perhaps he was not as bad for you as Eddie O'Sullivan would have had you all believed. Look, I am not going to get into a peeing match with you lot on this, but I always remember Ireland in the early naughties as being a real team, and I remember the the Lions tour to Australia in 2001, in the first test the two best players were Irish, a young O'Driscoll and his centre partner Henderson, it was Gatland who got these players doing the business, I was even more in favour of O'Gara over Neil Jenkins on that tour, I wonder what paths these players would have gone down if Gatland was not there because back then your provinces were not the power houses they are now.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stringer/O'Gara have been defended by Munster fans, from one other irish fan. They didn't insult anyone in defending him either, which is more than what I can say for your welsh brethren. You mention the whole irish back row, but I haven't even seen anyone talk about them, bar Wallace who is retired. I mentioned the welsh back row looking better than it is because of the backs, and that is why they work. The carrying duties are mainly carried out by their backs, giving them less to do. That is how Gatland has his team play, so yes it was on topic.

New Zealand and Australia have ball-carrying backs. Does this also make their back-row overhyped, or overated or whichever word you choose to use?

Morgannwg wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stringer/O'Gara have been defended by Munster fans, from one other irish fan. They didn't insult anyone in defending him either, which is more than what I can say for your welsh brethren. You mention the whole irish back row, but I haven't even seen anyone talk about them, bar Wallace who is retired. I mentioned the welsh back row looking better than it is because of the backs, and that is why they work. The carrying duties are mainly carried out by their backs, giving them less to do. That is how Gatland has his team play, so yes it was on topic.

New Zealand and Australia have ball-carrying backs. Does this also make their back-row overhyped, or overated or whichever word you choose to use?

Australia don't have big ball carrying backs,they are small and agile in general.

I didn't use 'big' though. NZ and Wales have big ball-carrying backs. Aus have ball-carrying backs but they just aren't as big. I'm talking about Iaone AAC.

NZ has Nonu/SBW and usually one or two wings who do a lot of heavy carrying. As does their back row. Wales have Roberts, Davies, Phillips, North and Cuthbert. Hence why you don't see Faletau doing what he does for the dragons, and why Lydiate can do his thing. He doesn't have to be a good ball carrier.

Nobody has a backline with the size and pace of the welsh atm. Not saying anything is wrong with that like, just that they take on a lot of the work that the back row forwards would usually do. Remember how at the RWC O'Brien and Ferris literally had to do everything? Carrying, ground work, etc. That is because our back line atm is poor (centres especially).