New Italian Team Taking Shape

by **Notch** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 1:31 pm

The new Italian side will be based in Parma, run directly by the FIR, compete in the Pro12 and Heineken Cup and they now have a head coach signed on the dotted line.

Let the great experiment begin!

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3825_7790039,00.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Former Bayonne coach Christian Gajan has been named the Director of Rugby at Italy's new Pro12 franchise, which will be based in Parma.

In an interview with French newspaper L'Equipe, Gajan - who has coached in Italy before (at Treviso between 1998 and 2000 and Venezia Mestre between 2003 and 2004) - revealed that the new team will be made up mostly of Italian players.

Gajan was axed from his post at Bayonne in December as his expensively assembled squad flirted with relegation but has been called to help out in Italy by Squadra Azzurra coach Jacques Brunel.

The new franchise, which will replace Aironi, will be "100 percent federal" according to Gajan, who confirmed that Italian Federation President Giancarlo Dondi had appointed him.

"It's an interesting project because this team will feature mostly Italian players rather than foreigners," Gajan told L'Equipe.

"[As Director of Rugby] I will work in close collaboration with Jacques (Brunel).

"Alessandro Troncon, who I know well because he was a player when I coached at Treviso, will take care of the backs and Vincenzo Troiani will handle the forwards and the scrum.

"It's funny because the mayor of Bayonne wanted Jacques Brunel to manager their team and Jacques called me to help him in Italy!"

The FIR complained that the two Italian sides weren't doing enough to expose Italian players to top flight rugby, especially in key positions like 10. Looks like that problem won't be an issue anymore. Also good to see Alessandro Troncon involved; he'll be key.

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 01 Jun 2012, 1:44 pm

Although if the side is going to made up mostly of Italians and most of the best Italians play abroad then you'd think this team will perform even worse than Aironi

by **Notch** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 1:50 pm

Maybe so, but it's something to build on and it will be far more beneficial for the national side. Hopefully most Aironi players continue with this side.

by Portnoy Fri 01 Jun 2012, 1:59 pm

There are so many implicit undercurrents in this announcement. Not least the ability of an Italian side can contribute to the Rabo.

With so many glass ceilings, ring-fences and downright exclusions pervasive in international rugby leagues and competitions, it will be a huge challenge to rugby at large to confront their own inner self-satisfied complacencies.

by **Notch** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:00 pm

But enough about the London Welsh promotion saga...

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:02 pm

How is 'bringing a new Italian team into the league to strenghen both the Italian team (Parma?) and Italian rugby as a whole' putting a glass ceiling and ring-fencing on rugby?

Surely if we'd wanted to ring-fence the league we wouldn't have invited the Italians in in the 1st place.

by Portnoy Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:03 pm

Notch wrote:But enough about the London Welsh promotion saga...

Nice molotov Notch thumbsup

by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:06 pm

It'll be interesting to see just how they go about putting together a squad to play for next season. In one summer they have to build a whole new team from the ground up. That's going to be tough.

What's happening to the players under contract at Arioni? Are they to be released or are Arioni going to be demoted to the Italian Super 10 competition?

by red_stag Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:07 pm

Portnoy, I think we have been quite accommodating to a country like Italy trying to develop rugby domestically. They have an agreement for two Pro 12 teams and have the option for two more.

by **Notch** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:It'll be interesting to see just how they go about putting together a squad to play for next season. In one summer they have to build a whole new team from the ground up. That's going to be tough.

What's happening to the players under contract at Arioni? Are they to be released or are Arioni going to be demoted to the Italian Super 10 competition?

I imagine they'll try and sign as many as possible to the new team, which I'm going to call Unnamed Parma Side #1.

For me, I think it's our duty to try and cultivate the development of rugby across Europe. In Italy and other countries, if they are ever ready. I don;t think it's possible to add any more fixtures to the Pro12 though, so any further expansion would require restructuring.

by Portnoy Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:12 pm

red_stag wrote:Portnoy, I think we have been quite accommodating to a country like Italy trying to develop rugby domestically. They have an agreement for two Pro 12 teams and have the option for two more.

Indeed the 6Ns have been more than accommodating. But not to No.s 7 -8 - 9 etc. Rabo, 6Ns, anywhere really...

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:17 pm

Portnoy wrote:
red_stag wrote:Portnoy, I think we have been quite accommodating to a country like Italy trying to develop rugby domestically. They have an agreement for two Pro 12 teams and have the option for two more.

Indeed the 6Ns have been more than accommodating. But not to No.s 7 -8 - 9 etc. Rabo, 6Ns, anywhere really...

Or even to South Coast of England either...

by Portnoy Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:18 pm

Notch wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:It'll be interesting to see just how they go about putting together a squad to play for next season. In one summer they have to build a whole new team from the ground up. That's going to be tough.

What's happening to the players under contract at Arioni? Are they to be released or are Arioni going to be demoted to the Italian Super 10 competition?

I imagine they'll try and sign as many as possible to the new team, which I'm going to call Unnamed Parma Side #1.

For me, I think it's our duty to try and cultivate the development of rugby across Europe. In Italy and other countries, if they are ever ready. I don;t think it's possible to add any more fixtures to the Pro12 though, so any further expansion would require restructuring.

Short of smashing glass ceilings I presume you mean Notch.

Per-lease don't let under-performing nations like Scotland and Italy find their own levels - or allow other countries to challenge. Ditto clubs.

by Portnoy Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:20 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:
Portnoy wrote:
red_stag wrote:Portnoy, I think we have been quite accommodating to a country like Italy trying to develop rugby domestically. They have an agreement for two Pro 12 teams and have the option for two more.

Indeed the 6Ns have been more than accommodating. But not to No.s 7 -8 - 9 etc. Rabo, 6Ns, anywhere really...

Or even to South Coast of England either...

? Explain please Smirnoff.

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:25 pm

Well seems to me if we haven't done much to develop rugby in underdeveloped (rubgy wise) areas, by only introducing two newly created professional regions/clubs into the professional league and allowing them to develop - then the same can be said for the AV whose only club South of Bath is Exeter who had to almost bulldoze their way into the AV while the only clubs likely to join them are Bristol & Leeds.

Then again maybe that is quite a lot of work (for both of us)

raspberry

by red_stag Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:30 pm

Portnoy wrote:
red_stag wrote:Portnoy, I think we have been quite accommodating to a country like Italy trying to develop rugby domestically. They have an agreement for two Pro 12 teams and have the option for two more.

Indeed the 6Ns have been more than accommodating. But not to No.s 7 -8 - 9 etc. Rabo, 6Ns, anywhere really...

We have had clubs from countries like Romania and Spain and Wales in the Amlin Cup for certainly the last decade.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:36 pm

For me, I think it's our duty to try and cultivate the development of rugby across Europe. In Italy and other countries, if they are ever ready. I don;t think it's possible to add any more fixtures to the Pro12 though, so any further expansion would require restructuring

Restructuring like the promotion of the second tier of the European competition and the introduction of a third tier for the smaller European nations as a catalyst to bring them into the European club fold?

by Portnoy Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:38 pm

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well seems to me if we haven't done much to develop rugby in underdeveloped (rubgy wise) areas, by only introducing two newly created professional regions/clubs into the professional league and allowing them to develop - then the same can be said for the AV whose only club South of Bath is Exeter who had to almost bulldoze their way into the AV while the only clubs likely to join them are Bristol & Leeds.

Then again maybe that is quite a lot of work (for both of us)

Smirnoff I'm not sure you've ever seen a map of England (and I won't insult you by doing so) but https://www.606v2.com/t29291-the-worrying-english-geographical-drift-to-the-south?highlight=drift .

by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:55 pm

then the same can be said for the AV whose only club South of Bath is Exeter

The Cornish Pirates are developing nicely, admittedly they'd be developing even better if the council would stop objecting to them building a stadium for the use of Cornish Sport.

There's a club in Reading (roughly as Southern as Bath) and another in South London (Quins). The south have rugby union options beside them (albeit north of Bath). More so than the North which will have only Sale in the AP and then Newcastle, Rotherham and Leeds in the Championship.

by **profitius** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 2:58 pm

The Italian teams are putting too much restrictions on signing foreign players. The Scots were doing that too and realised that to grow the game they need strong regional teams so have relaxed the rules on foreigners.

Italy isn't going to become strong for a long while. Getting game time for more of their players won't matter if the players are not good enough.

by TrailApe Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:02 pm

Newcastle, Rotherham and Leeds in the Championship..

Not quite yet bonny lad - not quite yet.........

(hanging on by fingernails whilst awaiting lawsuit smiley)

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:07 pm

I should say I was being facetious in response to the claim that the Pro12 was creating a glass ceiling by introducing Italian teams into the league.

I also said South coast not Southern England (I'm well aware that Reading, London, London Wasps, London Irish and Bath are in South England)

by Feckless Rogue Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:10 pm

There's a fine balance when it comes to foreign players. Especially in the PRO12 nations who only have a few pro teams. But the number of foreign players depends on your needs. For example, I think Ulster have done the right thing in signing 5 top class foreigners that have raised the teams standards, and helped Ulsters home grown youngsters enormously.

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:16 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:There's a fine balance when it comes to foreign players. Especially in the PRO12 nations who only have a few pro teams. But the number of foreign players depends on your needs. For example, I think Ulster have done the right thing in signing 5 top class foreigners that have raised the teams standards, and helped Ulsters home grown youngsters enormously.

I agree - I also think the Scarlets look like their doing the right thing now where they tried to bring through and develop Welsh youngsters (and Welch) at lock and it didn't give us a platform, the Welsh ints in that position are all playing elsewhere and too expensive for us, so we're bringing in NWQ players (and hopefully some int experienced ones) to help develop the next batch of Welsh youngsters and give the young Welsh props a platform.

Some English clubs need NEQ players as there isn't enough quality English players to spread 12 ways.

But as with everything it's all about balance between being competitive and developing talent, having strong NWQ players but only in the right areas, having lots of internationals but having cover for when they are away

by thebandwagonsociety Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:18 pm

Notch wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:It'll be interesting to see just how they go about putting together a squad to play for next season. In one summer they have to build a whole new team from the ground up. That's going to be tough.

What's happening to the players under contract at Arioni? Are they to be released or are Arioni going to be demoted to the Italian Super 10 competition?

I imagine they'll try and sign as many as possible to the new team, which I'm going to call Unnamed Parma Side #1.

For me, I think it's our duty to try and cultivate the development of rugby across Europe. In Italy and other countries, if they are ever ready. I don;t think it's possible to add any more fixtures to the Pro12 though, so any further expansion would require restructuring.

A bit of imagination please Notch. How about calling the side Parma Ham or the Hammers for now.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:20 pm

Not quite yet bonny lad - not quite yet.........

(hanging on by fingernails whilst awaiting lawsuit smiley)

TA I'd prefer the Falcons to stay up personally. LW have tried a last minute change of home to get into the AP but previously have avoided doing anything to prepare for life in the AP. Another team near London would also be a bore and I'm hoping Falcons vs Tigers will be one of the first games of the season as I'm up North for two weeks at the end of Sept.

by **Notch** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:30 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:There's a fine balance when it comes to foreign players. Especially in the PRO12 nations who only have a few pro teams. But the number of foreign players depends on your needs. For example, I think Ulster have done the right thing in signing 5 top class foreigners that have raised the teams standards, and helped Ulsters home grown youngsters enormously.

The argument the FIR were making last season was that there were too many foreigners in the halfback positions. There's no reason why they can't pick an Italian 9 and 10 for the benefit of the national side and try and sign some top quality players for elsewhere in the team to help them grow. If they get Tebaldi and Orquera they can be competitive. Hopefully they also retain Andrea Masi and Mauro Bergamasco.

Think this new side will take a few beatings though. I believe in what we're trying to do with the Italian sides, and Treviso's progress shows it's right, but this situation is very depressing. Two years hard work at Aironi, wasted. Back to square one.

by marty2086 Fri 01 Jun 2012, 3:51 pm

The Italians need to find their feet it takes some longer than others to find what works for the, Aironi didnt so they were booted out and replaced with Parma.

The stronger the likes of Italy become as well as emerging nations such as Russia, USA and Romania then the better the game will be. It'll produce a greater pool of players and hopefully any beatings the new team take will make them hungrier to suceed

by Shifty Fri 01 Jun 2012, 7:17 pm

Thanks for the post Notch.

This solution by the FIR basically addresses many of the concerns brought up by Jake White over the past few seasons. He went public about the fact that Treviso and Aironi were buying in too many foreign players, which limited the few spaces for Italian players to have a chance in the team.

As a result of this shortage of professional Italian players coaches have had to bolster their squads with players from clubs like Crociati Parma, Rovigo and Mogliano. With the National coach having a say in the running of this team he will surely have the ability to add players he feels Italy needs to develop.

by wales606 Fri 01 Jun 2012, 8:48 pm

red_stag wrote:
Portnoy wrote:
red_stag wrote:Portnoy, I think we have been quite accommodating to a country like Italy trying to develop rugby domestically. They have an agreement for two Pro 12 teams and have the option for two more.

Indeed the 6Ns have been more than accommodating. But not to No.s 7 -8 - 9 etc. Rabo, 6Ns, anywhere really...

We have had clubs from countries like Romania and Spain and Wales in the Amlin Cup for certainly the last decade.

Hmmm, nobody called you on it.

by **Notch** Fri 01 Jun 2012, 11:12 pm

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