Springbok squad announced.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Coetzee/Daniel are extremely underpowered, surprised theyre anywhere near a Bok jersey

You are beginning to sound like a troll

?????? Because my opinion differs to yours?

Add Kankowski into that also. Seem to recall Coetzee nearly getting put in the stands from a Mumm(yes Dean Mumm) hand off a few months back.

So you base your entire opinion on one hand off?

Obviously not, I've seen Coetzee offer little all season. The Stormers 6 (llosi??) is a much brighter prospect imo.

Well I then leave you to your assessment, and will wait for the test seres.

Bring it on!!!

If this was in our backyard I'd fancy a 3-0, could go either way at your place though. Whoever wins first test will win 2-1 I think.

yappysnap wrote:So the likely two starting XV's are below, i've compared the starting teams players as a comparison:

1. Mtwarira v Corbisiero Mtwarira
2. Du Plessis v Hartley Du Plessis
3. Du Plessis v Cole Cole
4. van der Merwe v Parling Parling
5. Kruger v Botha Kruger
6. Coetzee v Haskall Coetzee
7. Alberts v Robshaw Robshaw
8. Spies v Morgan Morgan

15. M Steyn v Foden Foden
14. Pietersen v Ashton Ashton
13. De Villiers v Tuilagi Tuilagi
12. F Steyn v Barritt Steyn
11. Habana v Strettle Habana
10. Lambie v Flood Flood
9. Hougaard v Youngs Youngs

9/6 in favour of Englands team but home advantage and the fact South Africa seem to have the measure of us means we'll struggle to win one Test.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That squad is hardly intimidating, we've played and beat better in the 6N. Think the Boks could be in for another tough year. Luckily Argentina will allow you to get a few wins in the 4N.

yappysnap wrote:So the likely two starting XV's are below, i've compared the starting teams players as a comparison:

1. Mtwarira v Corbisiero Mtwarira
2. Du Plessis v Hartley Du Plessis
3. Du Plessis v Cole Cole
4. Eztebeth v Parling Eztebeth
5. Kruger v Botha Kruger
6. Coetzee v Haskall Coetzee
7. Alberts v Robshaw Alberts
8. Spies v Morgan Morgan

15. Lambie v Foden Foden
14. Pietersen v Ashton JPP
13. De Villiers v Tuilagi Tuilagi
12. F Steyn v Barritt Steyn
11. Habana v Strettle Habana
10. Steyn v Flood Flood
9. Hougaard v Youngs Hougaard

9/6 in favour of Englands team but home advantage and the fact South Africa seem to have the measure of us means we'll struggle to win one Test.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Coetzee better than Haskell.......you lot do make me laugh

Bullsbok wrote:

yappysnap wrote:So the likely two starting XV's are below, i've compared the starting teams players as a comparison:

1. Mtwarira v Corbisiero Mtwarira
2. Du Plessis v Hartley Du Plessis
3. Du Plessis v Cole Cole
4. Eztebeth v Parling Eztebeth
5. Kruger v Botha Kruger
6. Coetzee v Haskall Coetzee
7. Alberts v Robshaw Alberts
8. Spies v Morgan Morgan

15. Lambie v Foden Foden
14. Pietersen v Ashton JPP
13. De Villiers v Tuilagi Tuilagi
12. F Steyn v Barritt Steyn
11. Habana v Strettle Habana
10. Steyn v Flood Flood
9. Hougaard v Youngs Hougaard

9/6 in favour of Englands team but home advantage and the fact South Africa seem to have the measure of us means we'll struggle to win one Test.

Let me fix this lineup for you theres a good chap. Now you see its all down to perception .As a Bok fan i'll be biased towards them obviously same with you being an English fan .

Bullsbok wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Coetzee better than Haskell.......you lot do make me laugh

who's this haskell? That yellow card machine for the highlanders?? thats the chap right . Wannabe badboy? That same guy who was getting disciplned by mccaw and co just yesterday?

yappysnap wrote:You're in a playful mood tonight Biltong

Bullsbok wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:15. Aplon
14. Pietersen
13. De Jongh
12. Steyn
11. Habana
10. Lambie
9. Hougaard

1. Mtwarira
2. du Plessis
3. du Plessis
4. van der Merwe
5. Kruger
6. Coetzee
7. Alberts
8. Daniel

would be the XV I would select for the 1st test.

I would be amazed if Meyer's selection was anywhere near that.

For once i would agree with my compatriot Biltong here, just why would he select so many lightweight players to get bullied in contact?

biltongbek wrote:

yappysnap wrote:You're in a playful mood tonight Biltong

Yappy, I am relieved at seeing this squad.

I wanted Heyneke to pick some young ones and he did. We must look to the future and the risk of new players will reward us, I am happy about the fact that Fourie du Preez is not there, on the whole despite the injuries to important players, the squad may be under rated by outsiders, but I watched closely how these guys played.

I am happy Brussow is not there too.

Meyer did think.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:15. Aplon
14. Pietersen
13. De Jongh
12. Steyn
11. Habana
10. Lambie
9. Hougaard

1. Mtwarira
2. du Plessis
3. du Plessis
4. van der Merwe
5. Kruger
6. Coetzee
7. Alberts
8. Daniel

would be the XV I would select for the 1st test.

I would be amazed if Meyer's selection was anywhere near that.

For once i would agree with my compatriot Biltong here, just why would he select so many lightweight players to get bullied in contact?

Because he is a new coach in South African (international) Rugby . Maybe.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Breakdown specialists are really not needed IMO. Everyone has to do their duties at the breakdown. While McCaw is considered a breakdown specialist (due to how good he is when he is actually involved in the ruck) he has a very well balanced game. He carries, he is a link man, he is a tackler. The breakdown is a small part of his massive game. Also, today in the baabaas game Louw got MOTM, and he was all over the place. He isn't a "natural" 7 and was playing a left-right partnership with Gorgodze.

What do you mean when you say someone who isn't busy hooking all day.. what in the scrum? Nobody is going to be competing at the breakdown in a scrum. Also, SA play their blindsides at 7, opensides at 6. So Alberts would be blindside (7).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It isn't the first time though that Dusautoir has outplayed McCaw. Another well balanced player. Dusautoir is certainly no openside.

wales606 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It isn't the first time though that Dusautoir has outplayed McCaw. Another well balanced player. Dusautoir is certainly no openside.

Dusatoir may not be a typical 7, but he is certainly a breakdown expert.

Warburton and McCaw are a different type of 7 to Pocock and Tipuric - But all 4 are experts at the breakdown.

Ireland may have had the highest turnover stats, but a lot of that is thanks to players like O'Driscoll and Darcy being quick to breakdowns in the backs. It would be interesting to see how many penalties Ireland won at the breakdown, backrow vs backrow.

I think most Irishmen would agree that although SOB, Ferris and Heaslip are outstanding players, there is no balance to that backrow - and would happily exchange SOB/Ferris for a breakdown specialist such as Tipuric.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:BTW - I do not disagree one bit about the importance of the breakdown, but I do disagree that one position is specialised in breakdown work rather than working as a team. Why have one expert at turning over ball when you can have a bunch of them?

wales606 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It isn't the first time though that Dusautoir has outplayed McCaw. Another well balanced player. Dusautoir is certainly no openside.

Dusatoir may not be a typical 7, but he is certainly a breakdown expert.

Warburton and McCaw are a different type of 7 to Pocock and Tipuric - But all 4 are experts at the breakdown.

Ireland may have had the highest turnover stats, but a lot of that is thanks to players like O'Driscoll and Darcy being quick to breakdowns in the backs. It would be interesting to see how many penalties Ireland won at the breakdown, backrow vs backrow.

I think most Irishmen would agree that although SOB, Ferris and Heaslip are outstanding players, there is no balance to that backrow - and would happily exchange SOB/Ferris for a breakdown specialist such as Tipuric.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:BTW - I do not disagree one bit about the importance of the breakdown, but I do disagree that one position is specialised in breakdown work rather than working as a team. Why have one expert at turning over ball when you can have a bunch of them?

emack2 wrote:Surprised there `s know Henreich Broussow,surprised Frans Steyn in squad.
Because one Meyer said he would`nt figure in these tests,and two he was in Europe until July one.But then of couse F.Steyn certain starter glad to see Kankowski back,many of those picked i have no knowledge of.

Bullsbok wrote:

As for 7s being worth more than 10s? i disagree .You can get as many turnovers and penalties as you want but if your 10 doesnt kick well you're screwed its as simple as that .

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:BTW - I do not disagree one bit about the importance of the breakdown, but I do disagree that one position is specialised in breakdown work rather than working as a team. Why have one expert at turning over ball when you can have a bunch of them?

Its quite simple really if you undersdtand backrow play. At the setpiece people are in different positions both scrum and line. That is why playing a fast fetcher on the openside or at the back of the line is prefferred because they use their pace to close down the opposition ten on defence and can move quickly into a support role in offence. The blind side who is normally also a third line option cannot do that from his positioning in the line or the scrum indeed at scrum time his express job is to cover the blind side on defence and to peel open or blind in a pod following the Seven and 8 on offence. The modern game requires a specialist openside who is a recognised fetcher. The best teams in the world all play a seven in that role.

That doesnt mean other people cant win turnovers obviously they can and do but the position on the field of the openside gives him the advantge in getting to the breakdown first. As for Warburton not being a turnover specialist well thats just plain wrong, He defensive play is what sets him apart and got him the seven shirt for Wales. He does carry but is not the link man nuggett or Tipuric is.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"However, there is usually a specialist who's job is almost exclusively to win the turnovers."

That isn't true. Only two players really fall under that category for me, Brussow and Pocock. In fact, there is an interview by Brussow I shall try to find you where he talks about this, and actually says that McCaw isn't that type of player. Neither is Warburton IMO. They both have a very well balanced game.

"That is why the 6. Tackler 7. Fetcher/Grappler 8. Bulldozer is working so well for teams (New Zealand being the best example, although Aus and Wales have similar) - When everyone knows their roles, it is easier to function as an effective unit."

Again, not really true. NZ certainly don't have that. Their best carrier was always Kaino, though he was also a crunching tackler. Read used to play at 6, before switching to 8, and is known for his tremendous work rate, rather than being a "bulldozer". McCaw is just McCaw.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:BTW - I do not disagree one bit about the importance of the breakdown, but I do disagree that one position is specialised in breakdown work rather than working as a team. Why have one expert at turning over ball when you can have a bunch of them?

Its quite simple really if you undersdtand backrow play. At the setpiece people are in different positions both scrum and line. That is why playing a fast fetcher on the openside or at the back of the line is prefferred because they use their pace to close down the opposition ten on defence and can move quickly into a support role in offence. The blind side who is normally also a third line option cannot do that from his positioning in the line or the scrum indeed at scrum time his express job is to cover the blind side on defence and to peel open or blind in a pod following the Seven and 8 on offence. The modern game requires a specialist openside who is a recognised fetcher. The best teams in the world all play a seven in that role.

That doesnt mean other people cant win turnovers obviously they can and do but the position on the field of the openside gives him the advantge in getting to the breakdown first. As for Warburton not being a turnover specialist well thats just plain wrong, He defensive play is what sets him apart and got him the seven shirt for Wales. He does carry but is not the link man nuggett or Tipuric is.

"Its quite simple really if you undersdtand backrow play"

Just have to make sure you get in the patronising bit first don't you? But I shall bow to your superior knowledge..

Again you misunderstand what I say. I said I would not describe Warburton as a breakdown specialist, but as the complete player. He is phenomenal at the breakdown, but he is great in many aspects of his game, not just the breakdown. He reminds me of a young McCaw in that regard. He doesn't play like Brussow, following the ball all game, trying to force a penalty or slow the ball down. If he is there, he usually turns it over. But he doesn't follow the ball religiously like Brussow/Pocock.

As for your 6/7/8 description, well that is a generalisation, and many teams play a different way (like France). A 7 is best being quick (something McCaw isn't, yet he still is one of the top 7s) so that he can be first off the set piece, as you say. However, after that, the game is played in phases and if you expect the 7 to be first to the ruck after that first phase, well good luck winning the ball. The pack has to do the donkey work. The breakdown is a shared role.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Lots of different back rows can work- As at as I can tell, and backrow play is what I do, each major international team uses a different balance and none is always far and away above the others. Whether a 10 or 7 or frankly a 9 or 3 is of more importance depends so much on the team that even trying to bandy one around as absolutely the most vital position just seems silly to me

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"There are thirty setpiece restarts on average in every game, lineouts and scrums, The positioning at the setpiece defines the role a player has. McCaw isnt as fast on one leg anymore but he was very quick in his younger days. It is the backrows job to be first to the breakdown it is along with their setpiece role the most important aspect of backrow play whether phase one or phase fourteen. depending on the previous play they may be at the bottom of a pile up but then they have to quickly track to the next breakdown. If you dont do that as a backrow player you arent worth having on the pitch."

That is literally exactly what I said, except I disagree that in open play, the 7 should not be expected to religiously follow the ball. After he secures it/steals it off the set piece, he should get back to form the defence/support in attack. At the second/third/fourth phase, it is up to the other forwards to challenge and secure the ball. Not the 7.