Springbok rugby supporters concerned.

First topic message reminder :

On the back fo the loss to the Irish U20 team last night and a woefull uninspiring Bayby Bok team that lacked any tactical nous or willingnees to play with ball in hand, I went onto various South African websites this morning just to see that tehe general mood is in South Africa before the upcoming English test.

Here are some comments made. I have removed the names of the posters to protect the innocent.

Yes, I think we're going to have to move with the times and change our game plans and patterns. The All Black and Australians really showed us up with their slick handling and intelligent play.......... and the Irish if you like. I have a fear that the 'Boks will play the same stereo-type game on Saturday. Certainly hope the poms don't show us up.

Gelled? It looked like these guys hadn't even met each other yet! A anumber of our top schools would have punished these "future hopefuls". It was a really poor poor performance with no apparent game plan other than to "donder" the irish wiff there strengff. But what can you expect when the coach is an ex prop? Wont be wasting my pink ticket on these boys again......sorry.

Very poor display of tactical play by Boks . Well done to the Irish.

It was the most frustrating game to watch!.......Please let us not play like this against the Poms this weekend!

Dawie Theron is clueless. How can he pick Paul Jordaan, who has been outstanding for the Sharks, on the wing? What a waste! Why the obsession with playing players out of position? In addition, the stupid and telegraphed kicking from both the scrumhalves cost the game. 2 charge downs and 2 tries to the Irish. So predictable. No attempt to play positive rugby. only Plan A which consisted of smashing up in the forwards and then the number 9 hoofs a high ball. Got what they deserved!

Depressing. No vision from the halfbacks, no skill from the midfielders, no imagination from the coaches. A herd of buffaloe - big, strong and bloody dumb!

I agree boet, why are we so scared to play rugby will ball in hand?? As Campese says, you can't score without the ball in your hands. Is this very difficult for the coaches to understand. On the other hand if our rugby players are really clueless and without skill, then I agree, kick the ball and see if the opposition makes a mistake. So, are our rugby players clueless and without skill????

Brace yourselves for more of the same this weekend. The ossewas selected by Meyer will be found licking the English' heels. Unfortunately this is South African mentality when it comes to sport. We are scared to loose trying new and exciting method. We'd rather stick to the tried and tested dinosaur rugby!!!

So HM says the structures are in place and Springboks will play according to their strengths, which is what we saw? There are some boring rugby years ahead for all Springbok rugby.

The Baby boks were beaten up badly at the breakdowns they lacked vision with ball in hand and our starting no.9 was pathetic really a disappointing performance from a baby bok team with so much talent.

Every scrummie now wants to copy FdP who started this mindless "kicking to nowhere" crap. Gareth Edwards from Wales, one of the best scrumhalves ever, kicked, but he used his kicks wisely and they always put the opposition under pressure.

Inept, pathetic, dumb performance!! Once again it shows how far behind SA rugby is. When will SA rugby realise that the kicking game is a dead art form. What is a joke is this Bulls idea to get forwards to line up in a row feeding the ball backwards, you simply telegraphing to the opposition that you going to kick & give possesion to them. Paul Jordaan is a talented player wasted chasing after kicked ball. Someone should teach the hooker how to throw in to, too many lost lineouts. One wonders if the reason for the game plan is to get players used what will be future game plans when at a senior level, which then gives us idea how the Boks will play against England on Satyrday, kick & chase!!

Not very intelligent rugga by the baby-boks.. Becoming as predictable as the bokke. The problem with "playing to our strengths" is that once the opposition nail you at your own strengths, then you are lost cause there is no plan-B

Wow, what a revelation the All Bkacks are! What skill and quick thinking- the rugby of old with backlines passes that arrive at the wings and with overlaps created along the way. None of the Bok obsession with the centres being crashball bullies only but skill, skill!
Watched the SACS vs Rondebosch derby this weekend and saw similar skills. What happens to these talented kids when they leave school.? Rugby has evolved but when will the Meyers and Coetzee's see this???

The scoreline actually flattered our Baby Boks. We looked clueless at the breakdowns and our lineouts were a total mess. How we only ended 4 points behind is a mystery. More so we could have miraculously won this game had the scrummie not been charged down. How we got that close the mind boggles. We looked like a U9′s playing out there. Ireland were totally superior to us in all aspects of the game.

Now we see why some of our Baby Boks only bloom once they are with their franchises, IT has to be the COACHING. Time for us to get the very best coach for our Baby Boks. I wonder what happens to Mitchell and Spencer after the Lions get relegated? If they out of a job please, please saru contract those two for our Baby Boks. Just imagine what Mitchell could do with our young talent? For for now they are just not coached at all.

Ospreydragon wrote:Biltonbek, the Baby Boks set piece play was poor (that's normally a strength of Bok rugby). Why?

Not sure mate, there has been some theories thrown around.

One was that Steven Kitshoff who has been brilliant for the stormers this season should not have been called up and given a rest.

Another that made the news was that the babyboks said they under estimated Ireland.

If you want my opinion, they didn't play as a unit.

SA has that potential but simply chooses not to realise it. Meyer may lift the win rate. But he wont dominate world rugby. Hes going for safety, percentages etc. And it would actually be bad for world rugby if such an approach were to be the benchmark.

That is my concern yes.

Teach that to the rest of your country men please... the amount of free tries Wales always gives you, we could do with you lot being less willing to accept our freebies!

Those aren't voluntary gifted, so sorry we'll keep those.

Taylor,
You just threw too much bureaucratic corporate-speak at us there.

Taylorman wrote:A clean slate is required

Taylorman wrote:A full and open SWOT type analysis. Strengths, weaknesses, opportunites etc.

Taylorman wrote:to dominate you must question EVERYTHING.

Taylorman wrote:You cant rely completely on a 'what used to work ' mindset.

Taylorman wrote:To be number one you must be adaptable, smarter and more innovative than everyone else.

Gee whiz, man. That was heavy.

Yeah doc, I hate it when someone throws my own words back at me.

Morgannwg wrote:

Every scrummie now wants to copy FdP who started this mindless "kicking to nowhere" crap. Gareth Edwards from Wales, one of the best scrumhalves ever, kicked, but he used his kicks wisely and they always put the opposition under pressure.

I said the FDP was wrongly touted 'world class' because all he did was box kick (which weren't even that good). Where are you now bullsbok! A South African echoes my theory.

He does do other all things well but constatant box kicking is something that I have criticised DuPreez ad nauseum when he was top of his game.

More to be concerned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR-tk73Qv0Y&feature=fvwrel

I hope things are put right before England showing up!

The South Africans frustrations are similar to the Irish fans frustrations with our test team. It's not 2009 anymore. Stop repeatedly kicking the ball away.

It's over two years since the tackle laws changed, but South Africa and Ireland are stuck in the past. It's especially frustrating when you watch Irish provincial teams play modern, attacking, skillful rugby better than anyone else in Europe.

I don't watch Super Rugby. Are the South African franchises showing signs of being able to win with more attack oriented rugby?

Well FR, the more attacking oriented teams are doing better...

Feckless we have a very interesting blend of styles in our super rugby.

You have a totally defence orientated stormers team who plays with ball in hand but doesn't go wide often, they beleive in the format of missing no tackles and aggressive offensive defence. It works for them, they have won 11 out of 13 matches.

Then you have the Bulls that play exactly like the Boks did for the past 6 years, it works against most teams, but those who can handle the pressure and go wide it doesn't work, also because the bulls defence close to the ruck is weak.

Then you have the sharks who plays more balanced rugby, they have Lambie and Michalak at 10, so their forwards does a lot of running but so do the backs.

The Lions play NZ rugby, but have 12 of their starters in their first season of super rugby, so not there yet.

The Cheetahs plays the most attacking rugby in SA, but doesn't have great defence.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The South Africans frustrations are similar to the Irish fans frustrations with our test team. It's not 2009 anymore. Stop repeatedly kicking the ball away.

It's over two years since the tackle laws changed, but South Africa and Ireland are stuck in the past. It's especially frustrating when you watch Irish provincial teams play modern, attacking, skillful rugby better than anyone else in Europe.

I don't watch Super Rugby. Are the South African franchises showing signs of being able to win with more attack oriented rugby?

Feckless,
If we have many of the same players who play dynamic Rugby with Leinster, I am not sure why/how they change for Ireland. I see the same with England, club v. country. It can't just be coaching because some of this is fundamentals. It's an open ended question because it astounds me and I don't get it.

doctor_grey wrote:
.

Gee whiz, man. That was heavy. [/quote]

ha ha,
yep just quicker to say it that way that the much longer way. Its just parroting the same words as biltong says. Amazing how obvious it isnt for some top rugby people though...stuck in a timewarp when the sxv has all the answers you would ever need...

There is an awful lot of assumptions,negative vibes,internicine rivalry in this thread.Firstly Well done both Ireland and Scotland but 2 swallows don`t make a summer.The Baby Boks have`nt fielded a really strong side since the under19 and 21 tournaments were changed to the current format.They`ve only lost one game they could still win or at least qualify from the group.This result has no bearing on the Senior side,they have new players and Coaches.We won`t know till the game is played how the Boks are going to play.Super Rugby is only a guide but 2009 style Rugby is getting results for the top sides.THE two most successful sides are also those with the best defensive record.Style versus England maybe different to that of the 4Ns.PDV guided the Boks to a Lions win and a 5-1 3N win in 2009 did`nt he .Against an All Blacks side without Dan Carter or Ali Williams,and a non match fit Ritchie McCaw [until the 3rd match].
Who`s to say with his Coaching team Meyer won`t spring a plan B without his old guard.Can he rely on domination at the Scrum,Lineout and Break down that a kicking game implies?
This year the AllBlacks unlike prevoius post RWC periods have`nt lost a whole squad.BUT forward Kaino and Thorn are a hard edge that needs replacing,behind the scrum Sivivatu,Rocokoko,Cowan and Muliana is a lot of experience lost behind.A Back 3 with less than a couple of dozen caps between them maybe the ABs will need a plan B too.
One things for certain the Boks are the ONLY 4Ns side who can kick goals from there own half at Home.THAT is a huge advantage in a year likely to be settled by close results.Want a prediction the AllBlacks will win ALL there home 4Ns games,and will win at least one away.That may be enough to win another title it may not we will see.

All we can go on is go by the things we see and hear Alan so assumptions is actually all we ever have.

One is that Meyer certainly looks to be returning to past SA periods of supposed domination. Theres enough around to make that assumption.

The selectio of Steyn, JDV as skip etc suggests hes ok with the Bulls style of rugby which offers nothing in terms of launching backline attacks, moves, variations and with Steyn firmly in control of the Bulls backline (or lack of it) theres no reason this wont continue through to Meyers side.

What Biltongs point was is that the U20's does appear to have a bearing on the senior side. It is also without structure, ideas, innovation, attack.

Where the leaders go the rest will follow kind of thing I think he and the posters were reflecting.

Same with the NZ sides. Of course theres a correlation between the ABs and the Baby blacks. They play the same game. The AB's are the role models for the way NZers want to play the game.

If SA are so keen to play the Bulls style then they should encourage it from bottom up. That way you get players used to the style filtering through to the top. But they don't. They let all the different styles go on at the lower levels and then change only at the national side. That can only result in chaos and conflict within the players themselves.

What happens if Goosen turns out to be the next answer to Carter? Do they select him then shut him down?

Last I heard Meyer was asking all his super sides to sing from the same song sheet.I don`t know enough about the Bok players named to form an opinion re style.Going from comments by several Bok posters that maybe Bok Lineout which has been THE key Bok attack area.Won`t be so dominant without Matfield /Botha[and injuries to other leading Locks].Scrums are so few relatively speaking you can get away with an average Scrum.Certainly Argentina will be strong in that area. Hougaard starting means a Lambie/Grant/Rose combo COULD move the ball.Also the Bulls have been scoring tries in some matches too.Complacency and thinking what the enemy is going do is a big thing but don`t take it for granted or it will come back and biteyou.

I just can't see Lambie at 10. Steyn in his conservative role is meant to be an 80 minute feature as they'll want him at the death for a last minute penalty or droppie. I dont think Meyer trusts anyone near the role so effective he thinks Steyn is...

Good luck to Meyer telling Mitchell how to run a team of 1-10 with backs as cameo's...

Well boys the Springbok matchday 22 will be announced today, it will clear up a lot in which direction Meyer is thinking at least for this series.

It will be very interesting to see his selections between:

Jannie du Plessis and Werner Kruger
Eben Etzebeth and Flip v d Merwe
Keegan Daniel or Marcell Coetzee
Francois Hougaard or Ruan Pienaar
Frans Steyn at 12 or JdV
Lambie or Kirchner

Isn't Jean De Villiers already pencilled in at 12 as captain?

That is the interesting thing Doc, according to repoorts he has been training at 13.

You see dependant on who he picks and where he plays them will provide us an indication of whether he is going ultra conservative or not.

Ive actually been very impressed with kirchner. More so than lambie at 15. He mixes it up physically and gets stuck in regularly.

I dont think you have much to worry about biltong. I think we'll see a much improved bok side against englaand and then these boards will be predicting the new era again.

Though the main issue will still be there when the all SH matches kick in.

Taylorman, it isn't that I am worried, but Meyer promised us the world, therefor I expect it from him, he has been touted our saviour since 2008, now I need him to deliver

Biltong,
I did not know that De Villiers was training at 13. If so, does that mean your worst nightmares are coming true? A total kick-chase-defend game plan? A possible final score lower than Aus-Scotland?

Taylor,
I watched the Sharks-Lions match from last weekend (as recommended by the inestimable Mr. Biltongbek) and Lambie's defense was terrible. He slid off tackles, outright missed tackles and was not in position on others.

No Doc, I would prefer to see if a Frans Steyn at 12 and JdV at 13 can work.

Frans at 12 will mean a lot more for us on attack as he can distribute.

Have to admit its been a while since I watched Steyn play. Saw a couple of his Racing Metro club matches in France, but in each case the team was misfiring and I couldn't tell much about him. If he can distribute, then do you think its a sign the Boks plan to get Habana more involved? Or would he be used just as another boot to pin England back?

If I look at the England squad which finished the Six Nations, Ben Foden and Chris Ashton are the only real running threats. Kicking and pinning England back is probably the strategy I would employ.

Doc here is some indication of what the Backs coach Ricardo Loubsher is thinking.

sport24

The 21-year-old played fullback for the Boks at last year’s World Cup in New Zealand but has been mainly used at flyhalf by the Sharks in Super Rugby this year.

“I would say flyhalf is his best position. Pat took the right decisions under pressure at the Sharks and that’s what you expect from a flyhalf,” Loubscher told Die Burger.

However, with Zane Kirchner likely to start at fullback and Morné Steyn the incumbent at flyhalf, Lambie looks set for a bench role against the English in the upcoming three-Test series.

But Loubscher also didn’t rule out the possibility of Lambie featuring at fullback in future.

“It depends on what you need on the day. They (Lambie and Kirchner) have different strong points.”

Loubscher also feels captain Jean de Villiers fits perfectly into the outside centre berth for the Springbok game plan.

“I prefer Jean at outside centre due to the way we play. If you play direct rugby, your inside centre can get you over the advantage line. Then, when the ball goes wide, you’ll have your best decision maker at outside centre.

“Frans Steyn is for me the best at inside centre because you then effectively have two flyhalves. Then we’re also in a position to have good decision makers and tactical kickers at flyhalf and inside centre,” said Loubscher.

supersports

Zane Kirchner’s probable selection as the starting fullback ahead of Patrick Lambie when the Springbok team for the first test against England is announced at lunchtime on Wednesday will be directed around the style of play new coach Heyneke Meyer wants for the initial part of his tenure.

The open session held at a local school on Monday sent out a clear message to those who hadn’t already been listening to Meyer talk at press conferences or public engagements – the Springboks will be starting this era with the clear objective of playing what used to be known as ‘subdue and penetrate’ rugby.

“You have to earn the right to go wide,” said new backline coach Ricardo Loubscher.

And he repeated the statement several times, as if to emphasise it.

“I don’t think it’s any secret that we are going to play direct rugby. In other words we will be running at their No 10 and No 12 channels and trying to get across the gainline and setting up our attacks from there. We need to get the ball in behind their forwards, and then that is when we play.

“It is not true to say that the wings won’t be getting the ball. They will hopefully be getting the ball after we have succeeded in getting in behind the opposition and reduced their defence to disarray. Then the wings have a very important role to play. And of course they also have a massive role to play in chasing the kicks.”

It’s a different message from the at-times confusing one that came out at the start of the previous era under Peter de Villiers, when the impression was created that the Boks would be going out to reinvent the game and run the ball from everywhere (though this didn’t happen in the first test against Wales in Bloemfontein and something may just have been lost in translation).

Back then the critics were using the “you have to earn the right to go wide” cliché as a reminder to the Boks of what they should be doing, particularly later in the season, when they appeared to lose all structure at times during a failed Tri-Nations campaign.

Not everyone will like this, but kicking is going to be a big part of the Bok game going forward, as indeed it was in the last three and a bit years of the De Villiers tenure, and the kick attack is going to be a big focus for the team.

Particularly in the initial part of Meyer’s reign, when he will be handicapped by having had so little time to prepare his team, you might find that the Boks are almost ultra-conservative – which is where Kirchner comes in.

“Zane and Patrick Lambie are two different kinds of players and the selection might be directed around what the one gives ahead of the other for the specific challenge we face in this game,” said Loubscher.

“We have to select a 22 first, and then a starting team. Zane is strong under the high ball, he has a very good kicking game. Lambie brings something different. He brings a bit of X-factor. It depends on what we need on the day.”

Given the way the shadow Bok team lined up on Monday, the high-ball safety net and the kicking game is what the Boks will require at Kings Park on Saturday, with Kirchner running nearly the entire session at fullback.

This may differ from the view of the head coach, but the backline coach gave a half hint that he might see Lambie as more of a flyhalf than a fullback, or a flyhalf who could play fullback.

“Lambie is a good decision maker and that is what you need from a flyhalf. I do think he is good in that position. But he can play well at fullback too and he and Zane are both class players who bring different strengths.”

Frans Steyn is a certainety at 12 otherwise why pick him as to style.First five minutes in RWC match versus Wales,that was brilliant.A first strike goal in the first couple of minutes.Boks are at Home,have been hurting,have got talented players.IF they forget the mindset of kick every thing and mix it up they will be formidable.Ireland have a real chance now,Snow has hit NZ the Munster Game may suit them very well for these matches.If the weather is poor but All Blacks not exactly amateurs in bad weather Rugby.

This is interesting. Almost tipping the hand about the game plan. Have the IC take the ball up strong in the first phase then use the OC to get the ball out wide in the next. Assuming the forwards take the ball up too, then you have an up the gut, up the gut, out wide plan of attack.

If Kirchner is fullback, the the Boks have three decent kicking options as well. I think Kirchner's defense is better than Lambie's, at least at this point in time. I would prefer to see Lambie at 10, as I see him as a much better distributor than Morne Steyn. But that probably doesn't work with the game plan. Perhaps if the Boks win the first two matches, then Lambie gets his shot?

I have only one problem with Kirchner, at times he doesn't even look for the offload and when he runs into traffic chances are we'll lose possession.

Doc hee is my preview of SA in the summer tour on V2 journal, have a look there.

England tour from a South African perspective

Good summary, mate. And you seem spot on with what we will see in the matches, at least in the first match. Although you wrote that Meyer doesn't appear to care what England brings to the table, I think this is the best way to play this England squad. So Meyer can appear nonchalant about who and how he plays, but I would suspect that he knows exactly how he wants to play England. And if England do something different, or simply beat the Boks, then the Plan B is needed. Frankly, I am not sure it will be needed, though.

Juandre Kruger will be a terrific addition to the squad. As a Saits supporter, I saw him against some of the best locks in Europe and was quite good. I worry about young Etzebeth. He started this season quite well, but recently has seemed to disappear from time to time. Maybe tired?

I am a big Jean De Villiers fan. But if he gets injured, who pulls the strings and organises the defense?

Yes, I think Etzebeth is probably a little fatigued, the same thing showed with Kitshoff in the U20 game, these youngsters are tough, but the season must be hard, there are no games that isn't very physical.

If JdV gets injured, I would put JP Pietersen in his place and move Francois Hougaard to wing with ruan pienaar at 9