Ball moving at address.

On two occasions recently I have called a one shot penalty on myself after the ball has moved millimetres after I have addressed the ball. I'm not talking a quarter of a revolution or a quarter of an inch, I'm talking millimetres that only I, standing over the ball can see.

I've just checked the rules and they seem a bit ambiguous. When I address the ball my clubhead is always about two inches from the ball. In normal circumstances on a flat lie is it reasonable to assume that a club grounded two inches behind the ball cannot be the cause of the ball moving and that it moved of it's own account?.

How do you decide if the exception to the ball moving at address applies?


Rule 18-2b applies if anyone want to check.

My understanding is that for a penalty to apply in this case 3 things ALL need to happen:

1. You need to have taken your stance (ie adressed)(even if you have backed off, once you have adressed at any stage, you are deemed to have adressed the ball).
2. You MUST ground your club. Again, your club doesn't need to be "grounded" when the ball moves, once it's grounded once, it's deemed to be grounded.
3. the ball must move from it's original position and not move back into it's original position.

My understanding is that whether or not you cause it to move is irrelevent........if you have adressed and grounded and a big gust of wind moves the ball, that's a penalty (regardless of the unfairness)..........

My problem is my ball moves millimetres after I hit it.

4 Putt, The rules have changed in the last revision. The ball is addressed when the club is placed immediately in front or behind the ball. You no longer need to take a stance to have addressed the ball. I would say that a club grounded 2 inches from the ball is not immediately behind the ball and therefore I would suggest that you never address the ball before you hit it. However, it is a question of fact whether you have actually caused the ball to move. For example, is it possible that you touched a long piece of grass that caused the movement? If you can be certain that you didn't cause the ball to move, there is no penalty.

18b says - Ball Moving After Address

If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a
result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a
penalty of one stroke.

So, if you addressed it, and then it moves, then you are penalised. The fact that you addressed it two inches behind the ball is immaterial.

The caveat introduced in the 2012 rules are to cover things like branches or pine cones falling on the ball, and moving it, after you addressed it. In that circumstance, you wouldn't be penalised, but if it moves for most other reasons, then I'm afraid you are culpable.

as i see it,if wind moves the ball no penalty,if you did not cause the ball to move,no penalty
greens this year are still uneven so its up to you to determine whether you caused the ball to move

shudofhita4iron wrote:as i see it,if wind moves the ball no penalty,if you did not cause the ball to move,no penalty
greens this year are still uneven so its up to you to determine whether you caused the ball to move

I wouldn't go into a competition with those definitions. The Rules are pretty clear as George mentioned a couple of posts back.

shudofhita4iron wrote:as i see it,if wind moves the ball no penalty,if you did not cause the ball to move,no penalty
greens this year are still uneven so its up to you to determine whether you caused the ball to move

The caveat in the 2012 RoG says that it's not a penalty if it's known, or virtually certain that the player didn't cause the ball to move.

I don't see how a player can know, or be certain that he didn't cause the ball to move unless there's something very clear that did cause the ball to move. Wind - possibly, but if it just moves on bumpy greens then that's down to the player I'm afraid.

thats not what you said in your original post george.
my point was if it was clear you didnt cause the ball to move then no penalty
think the bumpy greens was a bad example

Thanks for the replies.

Looks like we have a split decision.

With regards to the exception of the ball moving rule being bought in to take into account the ball being moved by an outside agency. Fair point, but no where in the rules does it mention this. It just says you have to be certain that you didn't cause the ball to move.

Perhaps I should have asked this question in my OP.

Your on a flat fairway. The grass is half an inch long. You address the ball far enough away so that there is no physical connection between the club, grass and ball. After a few seconds, before the ball is struck it moves 1 millimetre. Would you call a penalty on yourself.

Yes or No?

"...no physical connection between club, grass and ball..."

no penalty then, because the club is not grounded.

If the club was grounded, then it's a penalty.

Shudof - the point is that if you are going to say you didn't cause it to move, then you have to have some idea of what did cause it to move. Wind, or something else is possible but not unless the wind is strong. If you don't know what caused it to move then you have to take the penalty because you can't just say "it wasn't me".

navyblueshorts wrote:

shudofhita4iron wrote:as i see it,if wind moves the ball no penalty,if you did not cause the ball to move,no penalty
greens this year are still uneven so its up to you to determine whether you caused the ball to move

I wouldn't go into a competition with those definitions. The Rules are pretty clear as George mentioned a couple of posts back.

I am pretty sure they changed the rules this year that if the wind moved the ball on the putting surface that no penalty would result, even if the ball is addressed.

Yes, the rules were changed. On windy days you can usually tell (if the ball moved) that it was caused by the wind. That's not the case on calmer days, and the point of issue here is that the player can only say that he didn't cause the ball to move if there is some other factor that DID cause the ball to move. If there was, then that's fine, no penalty. However if the ball moved, and the player doesn't know why it moved, then he has to take the penalty. You can't just say - "it wasn't me, must have been something else, so no penalty".

The point is that the definition of addressing the ball has changed. The ball is addressed once the club is put "immediately behind or in front of the ball". There is no longer any mention of taking a stance. I don't think that two inches behind the ball constitutes "immediately behind". Thus I would say that 4Putt has not addressed the ball. It is then a matter of fact whether he can honestly say that he didn't cause the ball to move.