New Zealand Under-20s v Wales Under-20s (Teams/Match thread)

[Morgannwg]

First topic message reminder :

Baby Blacks - Marty McKenzie, Matt Proctor, Marnus Hanley, Opetera Peleseuma, Junior Va'a Tofa, Scott Eade, Bryn Hall, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Nathan Harris, Eric Sione, Joe Latta, Christian Lloyd, Taniela Manu, Hugh Blake, Jordan Taufua. Replacements - Rhys Marshall, Tuki Raimona, Fraser Armstrong, Nick Ross, Jimmy Tupou, Jono Kitto, Ihaia West, Pita Ahki.

Wales - Ross Jones, Tom Prydie, Cory Allen, Jack Dixon, Eli Walker, Matthew Morgan, Tom Habberfield, Rob Evans, Kirby Myhill, Samson Lee, Cory Hill, Matthew Screech, Luke Hamilton, Ellis Jenkins, Dan Baker. Replacements - Darran Harris, Gareth Thomas, Will John, Rhodri Hughes, Daniel Thomas, Jonothan Evans, Sam Davies, Thomas Pascoe.

* Well probably the best Wales U20s team of the year. A lot of pace in the backline behind a big, strong pack. Shouldn't be a massacre this time then...
Each player is tied to a premiership team and should have been getting regular game time. Others have played in the LV cup for their Regions, Pro12 and in some cases the Heineken Cup. Capped international Prydie and Tom Habberfield have played for Wales in the IRB Sevens Series and showed up very well. I think Ponty 2nd row Cory Hill is the captain, he has looked pretty handy in the games I've seen him play. Each need to show up well and overcome any psychological barrier if they are to stay within reach of New Zealands school-boys. Good luck boyo's.

** Baby Blacks undefeated for 5 years fall to U20 Six Nations fourth placed Wales. Well done boyo's. Complete turnaround from previous years. Still don't agree with the 14 players not being released for that Six Nations though.

[Taylorman]

There are parallels between this match and the oz scot match. The weather and the track were attrocious in both matches.

The impact of this is it heavily negates moving the ball through the hands at pace and brings in forward play much more.

Admit it or not nz and oz sides prefer fast dry tracks to play their best rugby and it confirms the real difference between these teams and most other sides is the backplay.

What the heavy tracks do is provide a leveller, in that it negates the advantage our backlines have over the NH sides who perhaps dont lose as much in backplay as oz and nz in relative terms.

So in both matches it meant either side could have won. And this time the NH sides won both.

For me if this continues the NH have a good chance of taking some of the tour matches and i think explains a little more about why we get off to such poor starts every year.

When june hits NZ the pressure and temperatures plummet and we tend to have our first tests in cold conditions not the best for running rugby. This is after months of good tracks often in brilliant weather at super xv.

In no way is this meant to be an excuse but my view is that this is the time of the year that NH should be touring the SH as its the most likely time the levellers will kick into place and a time we woukd need to better adapt to the wet weather game.

So given whats happened already this week this scenario could come into play again and could make things interesting.

Mind you...doesnt apply to SA who have less dependency on backplay so likely not as much levelling comes into play.

[thebluesmancometh]

I would agree in part, but doesn't it rain in NZ? Aren't they used to it?

What this does show me is the innate skill level, and game nous is afr higher in NZ as it is anywhere else. Physically the boys are all very similar, but skillsets are always highlighted in more space!

[slartibartfast]

There are parallels between this match and the oz scot match. The weather and the track were attrocious in both matches.

The impact of this is it heavily negates moving the ball through the hands at pace and brings in forward play much more.

Admit it or not nz and oz sides prefer fast dry tracks to play their best rugby and it confirms the real difference between these teams and most other sides is the backplay.

What the heavy tracks do is provide a leveller, in that it negates the advantage our backlines have over the NH sides who perhaps dont lose as much in backplay as oz and nz in relative terms.

So in both matches it meant either side could have won. And this time the NH sides won both.

For me if this continues the NH have a good chance of taking some of the tour matches and i think explains a little more about why we get off to such poor starts every year.

When june hits NZ the pressure and temperatures plummet and we tend to have our first tests in cold conditions not the best for running rugby. This is after months of good tracks often in brilliant weather at super xv.

In no way is this meant to be an excuse but my view is that this is the time of the year that NH should be touring the SH as its the most likely time the levellers will kick into place and a time we woukd need to better adapt to the wet weather game.

So given whats happened already this week this scenario could come into play again and could make things interesting.

Mind you...doesnt apply to SA who have less dependency on backplay so likely not as much levelling comes into play.

Eh? Slow starters? Why do NZ keep winning everything?

So you think NZ would have won if it was dry? Rubbish. Youll never know. Give the opposition some credit

[TycroesOsprey]

fair points taylor but it wasnt exactly a lottery out there. conditions were awful and dragged it into a dogfight but the baby blacks scrum was in all sorts of trouble which I think gave us all our points and was the difference. Had the welsh boys managed to stop the early engage a bit sooner then I think the penalty count would have been much higher.

[Ospreydragon]

Rugby is played in all weather conditions. Wales played the conditions better and made fewer handling errors -- for all the skills the Junior Blacks have, they made an awful lot of handling errors. They were also naive tactically, and played the conditions very poorly. I'm sure the players will learn from it. I also thought Wales had a stronger scrum during the game.

Wales should have made Prydie the place kicker from the start. Morgan can kick brilliantly, but he's inconsistent at this stage of his career.

[aucklandlaurie]

osprey
I must say the lack of graciousness wasnt as much as I thought.

If welsh people are offended by any New Zealanders behaviour, then I am the first to apologise (and congratulate in a similar fashion). however is it possible that he was replying to a journos question asking about the feelings in the NZ dressing room at having being beaten? (A common question asked of NZ sides when beaten). and being congratulatory wasnt really in tenor of the question?????

[TycroesOsprey]

osprey
I must say the lack of graciousness wasnt as much as I thought.

If welsh people are offended by any New Zealanders behaviour, then I am the first to apologise (and congratulate in a similar fashion). however is it possible that he was replying to a journos question asking about the feelings in the NZ dressing room at having being beaten? (A common question asked of NZ sides when beaten). and being congratulatory wasnt really in tenor of the question?????

Personally I heard the coach interviewed and Bryn Halls interview and I thought both of them paid the welsh credit. I was a bit suprised when I hears people complaining so went to the irb site and the interviews are there. I heard nothing to be offended by and thought both were respectful.

Mind you I think the NZ coach has a few questions to answer about his tactics and scrum being beasted.

[Morgannwg]

osprey
I must say the lack of graciousness wasnt as much as I thought.

If welsh people are offended by any New Zealanders behaviour, then I am the first to apologise (and congratulate in a similar fashion). however is it possible that he was replying to a journos question asking about the feelings in the NZ dressing room at having being beaten? (A common question asked of NZ sides when beaten). and being congratulatory wasnt really in tenor of the question?????

Nor me, no need to apologise for what was said. NZ did dominate possession.

[gelodge]

"... I didn’t feel we were beaten, we were on the scoreboard ..."

Source:

http://www.irb.com/jwc/news/newsid=2062582.html#wales+baby+blacks+unbeaten+jwc

"The boys are desperately keen to do well, you will never see a New Zealand team lie down and I didn’t feel we were beaten, we were on the scoreboard but we got into positions and it just didn’t happen for us."

[aucklandlaurie]

osprey
I must say the lack of graciousness wasnt as much as I thought.

If welsh people are offended by any New Zealanders behaviour, then I am the first to apologise (and congratulate in a similar fashion). however is it possible that he was replying to a journos question asking about the feelings in the NZ dressing room at having being beaten? (A common question asked of NZ sides when beaten). and being congratulatory wasnt really in tenor of the question?????

Personally I heard the coach interviewed and Bryn Halls interview and I thought both of them paid the welsh credit. I was a bit suprised when I hears people complaining so went to the irb site and the interviews are there. I heard nothing to be offended by and thought both were respectful.

Mind you I think the NZ coach has a few questions to answer about his tactics and scrum being beasted.

Well if he stuffs up here, he wont be New Zealands problem for long, he become Munsters.

[aucklandlaurie]

"... I didn’t feel we were beaten, we were on the scoreboard ..."

Source:

http://www.irb.com/jwc/news/newsid=2062582.html#wales+baby+blacks+unbeaten+jwc

"The boys are desperately keen to do well, you will never see a New Zealand team lie down and I didn’t feel we were beaten, we were on the scoreboard but we got into positions and it just didn’t happen for us."

But dont you have to put that reply into context with the question he is replying to?

[gelodge]

"... I didn’t feel we were beaten, we were on the scoreboard ..."

Source:

http://www.irb.com/jwc/news/newsid=2062582.html#wales+baby+blacks+unbeaten+jwc

"The boys are desperately keen to do well, you will never see a New Zealand team lie down and I didn’t feel we were beaten, we were on the scoreboard but we got into positions and it just didn’t happen for us."

But dont you have to put that reply into context with the question he is replying to?

I would say so, yes. It's not available there though and I thought it best to at least provide the whole sentence as opposed to a selective element as was originally done.

[Taylorman]

Never saw any of the after match comments but to the comment if the track had been dry and fast yes i believe the kiwis would have won. Well thats obviously a yes. That was my whole point.

Should the two meet again this tournament in fast dry conditions that question will be answered in any case as other than that there should be no other differences. Is that not a reasonable call.

If its wet it should be close again as it was and the nz back play will once again be negated or is there a thought that the welsh backplay is as good as the baby blacks? An honest question.

yes the welsh scrum was better but the margin was three points. That still suggests anyones game.

Anyway. I think it was a good result long term as its highlighted some weaknesses we probably didnt know we had and luckily our team has a chance to make up for it almost completely. Wales will have done them a big favour and may cop it in very short time. Thats if they learn correctly from it.

[Biltong]

Didn't see the match was watching the other matches, but congratulations to Wales for being the first U20 team to beat NZ.

That one is definitely for the record books

Having said that, I beleive NZ will bouce back and still win the tournament.

Of all the toehr teams there, nobody has convinced me enough to believe they could win it.

I watched the Wales and Fiji match earlier in the week and they did well to come back from being two scores down and beat Fiji comfortably.

You'll all get your wishes most likely, it seems the rest of the matches has been moved to Capetown as the tracks have been muddied too much, so we'll see some running rugby unless the rain hits Capetown very hard.

Do I think Wales will beat NZ on a dry track?

No, but it isn't out of the question, they must have oodles of convidence now.

One thing I would like to know though, why does the SANZAR nations not have a Tri or Four nations similar to the 6 nations for their U20?

[Morgannwg]

To answer your question, yes, Wales U20 do have good backs.

[Knowsit17]

There are parallels between this match and the oz scot match. The weather and the track were attrocious in both matches.

The impact of this is it heavily negates moving the ball through the hands at pace and brings in forward play much more.

Admit it or not nz and oz sides prefer fast dry tracks to play their best rugby and it confirms the real difference between these teams and most other sides is the backplay.

What the heavy tracks do is provide a leveller, in that it negates the advantage our backlines have over the NH sides who perhaps dont lose as much in backplay as oz and nz in relative terms.

So in both matches it meant either side could have won. And this time the NH sides won both.

For me if this continues the NH have a good chance of taking some of the tour matches and i think explains a little more about why we get off to such poor starts every year.

When june hits NZ the pressure and temperatures plummet and we tend to have our first tests in cold conditions not the best for running rugby. This is after months of good tracks often in brilliant weather at super xv.

In no way is this meant to be an excuse but my view is that this is the time of the year that NH should be touring the SH as its the most likely time the levellers will kick into place and a time we woukd need to better adapt to the wet weather game.

So given whats happened already this week this scenario could come into play again and could make things interesting.

Mind you...doesnt apply to SA who have less dependency on backplay so likely not as much levelling comes into play.

First of all let me emphasise how I am in no way trying to rub the salt in. To beat the Baby Blacks in any conditions is a privilege as they are arguably more dominant than their senior counterparts. I'm still struggling to believe that we're the first and thus far only side to ever beat them at this level tbh.

But does it not worry you that, from how you've described it, a large part of NZ/Oz success hinges on the ground being flat and dry and running conditions acceptable to a certain degree? While today's conditions may be more common in the NH than the SH, I wouldn't go as far as to say they're completely alien in New Zealand and Australia. We had some downpours and very slippery surfaces in a few group games of last year's WC. I've personally been frustrated in the past when Wales and the regions couldn't make the most of wet and muddy weather when they should logically be more accustomed to it than, say, France and French clubs.

My point is that if shoddy conditions diffuse some of the main strengths of NZ/Oz and mutates the game into an "either way" scenario, isn't that worrying? It makes both sides appear somewhat one-dimensional if they don't have a plan to confront that situation and in both cases have flipped over to frustration rather than being able to at least grind out an ugly win.

To translate Darwin's logic into rugby lingo, It is not always the strongest of sides that wins, nor the most intelligent, but that which is most adaptable to conditions

[TycroesOsprey]

yeah our backs have never been the issue at u20 its always been the forwards getting stuffed,

[Taylorman]

Yes its unbelievable we dont have it. Perfect chance to blood younger players for both this and sxv, 4N sides. The fiji match will be the first time our boys played together so thats a bit weird not having matches beforehand.

I also think we'll bounce back and arent taking anything away from wales. With this side and the current top side wales rugby is certainly in a fantastic position. This side has undoubtedly got motivation from the consistent results by the senior team and that can only be fantastic for them.

They are now throwing the gauntlet out there and down here we are now having to ask the hatd questions when before we wouldnt have needed to.

Im picking a good win for wales tonight as for the first time i think theyre stronger all round than their opposites and unless oz pull out some big tricks of their own they'll be outplayed, out thought and outskilled.

[Morgannwg]

We have Sevens internationals in the backs, the rest have had Regional experience. If only they could get Harry Robinson back to replace Eli Walker...

[Biltong]

Yes its unbelievable we dont have it. Perfect chance to blood younger players for both this and sxv, 4N sides. The fiji match will be the first time our boys played together so thats a bit weird not having matches beforehand.

I also think we'll bounce back and arent taking anything away from wales. With this side and the current top side wales rugby is certainly in a fantastic position. This side has undoubtedly got motivation from the consistent results by the senior team and that can only be fantastic for them.

They are now throwing the gauntlet out there and down here we are now having to ask the hatd questions when before we wouldnt have needed to.

Im picking a good win for wales tonight as for the first time i think theyre stronger all round than their opposites and unless oz pull out some big tricks of their own they'll be outplayed, out thought and outskilled.

To be honest, I don't think OZ has the players to do tricks today, I reckon they need to work a platform of control first and use more direct running if they want to win. Their triksters aren't there, don't think the guys in the team today have the necessary skill for the usual guile of Ozzie back line play.

[Taylorman]

Exactly. Its just that i think theyll need tricks to win. Genia and ioane are certainly capable.
A tried and true % approach is not the oz way recently and its simple really. They have an uphill battle. Depth, poor scheduling, injuries, loss of confidence from the scot game are all conspiring against oz at this moment.

I expect to see deans slumped in his seat regurgitating the not in our dna speech again.

If they do get up to in this it will reflect poorly on wales as they couldnt be handed better circumstances than this to pick up a SH scalp.

Interesting to see how they handle the expectation of winning one of these matches. Something SH sides deal with every match.

[maestegmafia]

A great deal of time and effort is being spent on the future of welsh rugby. I am very glad to see us reap the rewards and have the honour of being the first team to beat the the Baby Blacks. It is a massive honour.

I do agree the conditions maybe equalised the sides, not that the welsh backs are less skillfull in attack, but on a dry day maybe less able to deal with constantly defending the ABs fantastic and rather massive runners.

This will give the lads huge confidence for the on going tournament. Let's see what we can achieve next.

[GavinDragon]

how do u get the supersport web page to work guys? says restricted on my laptop

[HammerofThunor]

Only works outside the UK, Ireland and France doesn't it? IRB website has highlights. Not sure when they go up though

[GavinDragon]

ah rite that wud by y then cheers

[blackcanelion]

Well done Wales. Should be semifinal for you against Argentina. Glad to hear all is not lost for our team and we can still make the semis.

I think it highlights some structural issues we have. Hopefully the NZRFU will now investigate:
- need to retain junior players
- need for development of national age group teams
Could be a blessing in disguise.

[Morgannwg]

Jeez calm down black... Only one loss in twenty-one...

[Guest]

I think the weather thing is being blown out of proportion. Even as a Welshman I reckon if that game was played 10 times then NZ would have won it the vast majority. They had the majority of possession but on this occasion they didn't do the right thing with it. More often than not they would do the right thing, and subsequently won.

Posters say that a fast hard track is needed by NZ and OZ, but the SH teams do fine in Britain and Ireland in our winter when it's p*ssing down and muddy (November). Lot's of grandslams for the SH in the AIs, so i don't think weather is that much of a problem. Plus, it rains a lot in NZ so they're used to it just as much as the welsh lads surely? This was just a blip for the ban blacks IMO:

[beshocked]

South Africa and New Zealand have the same number of points. If New Zealand get 5 from Fiji I can't see South Africa getting 5 from England without beating them. If South Africa beat England then they'll (England) need 2 lbp to draw level with New Zealand. The other option is France who are playing Australia. I doubt they'll get the tbs win against them. I reckon it'll be

1 Wales
2 England
3 Argentina
4 New Zealand

OR

1 Wales
2 Argentina
3 South Africa
4 New Zealand

Looks like Wales will have to face New Zealand again if all goes as you predicted.

[Shifty]

osprey
I must say the lack of graciousness wasnt as much as I thought.

If welsh people are offended by any New Zealanders behaviour, then I am the first to apologise (and congratulate in a similar fashion). however is it possible that he was replying to a journos question asking about the feelings in the NZ dressing room at having being beaten? (A common question asked of NZ sides when beaten). and being congratulatory wasnt really in tenor of the question?????

I have been scouring the net for anything offensive said by New Zealand also and can't find anything, though 1 poster did say he listened to "audio", so maybe he was referring to a commentator?

New Zealand were pretty gracious in defeat to be fair.

As for the game? Well I think the pitch leveled the playing field and it became a dog fight of who wanted it more, I think Wales were far more aggressive in defense even with the ball New Zealand were going backwards towards the end of the game.

New Zealand also seem to be making a glaring error in the development of their props, why are they pushing guys who are 6'4"+ into the front row? Several of their props in their squad are that height. They key reason they lost the game was because they could not handle the short stocky props that Wales had. On the engagement the prop has to be level with his waist, so a shorter, heavy prop will be able to get under a much taller prop, and as a result Wales won a string of penalties, including the winning kick, because the taller Kiwi loose head could not hit Sampson Lee, and could not bind on the top of his head.

Finally even in a dog fight you nearly always see New Zealand win because of their traditional doggedness and determination, yet Wales were far hungrier and determined to win the game. New Zealand looked as though they simply expected to win without actually doing anything to make it happen, which smacks of arrogance. Yes it's only Wales but if their tails are up, their getting stuck into you, winning the collisions and creaming you in the scrums you might want to switch on and realise you might lose the game! Those Kiwis seemed to be looking at each other and hoping someone else would do something great to pull the game out of the bag for them, instead of trying to make it happen themselves or as part of a team.

[rodders]

well done Wales, fantastic result!

[Guest]

how do u get the supersport web page to work guys? says restricted on my laptop

Only works outside the UK, Ireland and France doesn't it? IRB website has highlights. Not sure when they go up though

You can trick it into thinking your outside the UK by using a proxy server.

PM me if you want to know how to do this in Firefox

[Morgannwg]

Yeah it's no good having 2 props weighing over 20 stones when they can't scrummage. That loose-head was a big ball carrier and defender though. Our guys are 5'11/6'0 and around the 18 stone mark. Perfect build for props, they are definitely ones for the future.

[Shifty]

Yeah it's no good having 2 props weighing over 20 stones when they can't scrummage. That loose-head was a big ball carrier and defender though. Our guys are 5'11/6'0 and around the 18 stone mark. Perfect build for props, they are definitely ones for the future.

That loose head from New Zealand was a shockingly awful scrummager, but he'd make a fantastic blindside or no 8 he really threw his weight around.

Unless were planning on scrapping competitive scrums in the next few years, it would seem this idea of having props who should be locks is a silly one!

[blackcanelion]

Mate I'm not saying anything I didn't say prior to the game. I haven't seen the game and I assume Wales outplayed us. End of story.

The reality for me, is that our junior game isn't as well as it could be. We're losing players to rugby league before they get to the under 20's and I'm not aware of any national agegroup teams or tournements that players can compete in other than this tournement. These are long term development issues we are going to have to address (and dosn't in anyway deflect from Wales win).

I'm not the only one either. The reason the kiwi fans on here don't know our own team is because we haven't seen them play. I heard a ex school coach working on sports radio talk about the loss of young players to league, a couple of months back. He said he'd talked to the NZRFU about it, I think his name was Graham Henry. He sounded like he knew a bit about coaching and player development.

It's a heart felt plea for the NZRFU to address issues before they really get out of hand (e.g. as with the blackferns).

Jeez calm down black... Only one loss in twenty-one...

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