Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry boys new thread other one is full.


Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362 (current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain. But last week's snow has melted at least)


courtesy of Taylorman:

NZ team named- only one change- Thompson for Vito (injured) with Sam Cane on the bench...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7098902/Thomson-in-for-Vito-Cane-on-All-Blacks-bench

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)


Tour Previews
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html

[rodders]

Honestly Rory I'm not sure we have anyone of the calibre needed and thats why we are struggling.... it is absolutley essential that you have a target man at inside centre.

It is possible to be big, powerful and creative.

If your midfield can't get you going forward then your subsequent phases will be slow and static and it then takes something special to get you going forward again.

Inside centre is the best position to get across the gainline because it takes longer to move the ball to the 13 channel and to takes longer for your backrow to get across.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Why is it essential he has to be an inside centre? I can't agree with that one. He can be a 12 or 13, it doesn't really make a difference.

Personally I prefer a creative 12 who can create space for a direct runner, which is why Wallace and Spence worked so well last season.

If it is a 12 getting us on the front foot, he will be carrying in the tight exchanges, to put us on the front foot. Only one guy really does that in the world, Jamie Roberts. The rest seem to draw in defenders and offload. O'Driscoll does that all the time. That puts the other outside backs into space. Savea was the main strike runner for NZ at the weekend.

[SecretFly]

[quote="Pete330v2"]

To the Irish guys, how are you feeling about NZ having a lot to work on? Are you guys worried that they'll fix their problems and provide a better performance or encouraged that you boys did well in certain areas and will attack those weaknesses NZ showed on Sat?

Put it like this, I wish we had been the side touring either South Africa or Australia right now or better still going the Scottish route. We need some world ranking points, we aren't going to get any and we're in danger of slipping down the rankings even further with the gormless DK at the helm. If England or Wales had chosen to tour New Zealand I'd be feeling sorry for them. Not as sorry as I feel for the very talented Irish guys who are being shackled by a lack of ideas from the coaching setup.

A comment that I can take a break on and just readily add a +1 to. Ahhh, the easy life for me

[rodders]

Why is it essential he has to be an inside centre? I can't agree with that one. He can be a 12 or 13, it doesn't really make a difference.

Personally I prefer a creative 12 who can create space for a direct runner, which is why Wallace and Spence worked so well last season.

It does it makes a huge difference because the ball gets to the inside centre quicker and your backrow can get around quicker to secure the ball.

If you go out to the 13 channel of 1st phase then its easier to defend and harder to secure the ball.

[asoreleftshoulder]

No but if I went searching I could find posts where you defended RoG,Leamy,Hayes,Horan,Flannery,DoC,Murray,ToL,maybe Buckley,Earls,Zebo and Kidney just off the top of my head.

I'm not going to do it as I couldn't be bothered but if you ask other posters I'm sure they can come up with more.

LOL. POM was criticised a few posts above and you made the claim that I defended ALL munster players. Maybe you are a bit set in your prejudices

bye the day, I've often defended D'Arcy & Fitz as well.

Maybe I'm the type of person who looks for the good bits (and I definately don't like some of the abuse dished out to some of the players here).

I hardly expect you to respond to every single post on here that criticises a Munster player.I'm sure you have a job and a life outside this forum.

You don't look for the good in Sexton you takle every opportunity to make digs at his expense.If you don't like some of the abuse dished out on here then why do you contribute to it?

[Rory_Gallagher]

Why is it essential he has to be an inside centre? I can't agree with that one. He can be a 12 or 13, it doesn't really make a difference.

Personally I prefer a creative 12 who can create space for a direct runner, which is why Wallace and Spence worked so well last season.

It does it makes a huge difference because the ball gets to the inside centre quicker and your backrow can get around quicker to secure the ball.

If you go out to the 13 channel of 1st phase then its easier to defend and harder to secure the ball.

I expanded my post to explain what I mean more.

Isn't it quite rare for a team to go straight to 12 off the set piece anyway? They would usually use the dummy runner. The hard running 12s in the mould of Roberts seem to be brought in the game after the 1st phase. Other teams can use their back row for this.

[rodders]

The quickest route over the gainline from 1st phase or off static ball is flat from the 10 to the inside centre coming back at his opposite numbers inside shoulder or up through the opposition 12-13.... backrow clears out quick and then you have quick ball left and right to attack from..... its all simple stuff....

[Rory_Gallagher]

I mean straight to 12, who then makes contact. Usually the ball is shipped wide off the set piece, unless you are right on their 5 metre line.

[rodders]

If you go wide straight from set piece then that's exceptionally easy to defend and get turned over.... its the main reason we lost to Wales in the RWC.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Plus the whole point of my original post was that most teams don't just have a 12/13 doing this anyway, but they have about 3 guys to fulfil that role. Like I said, Savea was the main weapon used against us, and NZ put him into space. We have Gilroy and Kearney for that. In the centres, we have Spence. I think we really need to use these guys.

[rodders]

...but hey thats my philosophy anyways....I'll let the kiwis chaps discuss it...they know more about attacking play than us....

Personally I'd just use the garryowen

[Rory_Gallagher]

If you go wide straight from set piece then that's exceptionally easy to defend and get turned over.... its the main reason we lost to Wales in the RWC.

The difference is we did nothing with the ball. Why would it be easier to turn over? The opposition back row have to break off the scrum the same time as we do. Most teams don't go straight to 12 off the set piece, that is extremely predictable.

Like I said, the only team that really does that is Wales with Roberts. And they use Phillips to ship it straight to Roberts, ignoring their 10.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Yeah I am going to watch the U20s game anyway. Catch you later.

[rodders]

Plus the whole point of my original post was that most teams don't just have a 12/13 doing this anyway, but they have about 3 guys to fulfil that role. Like I said, Savea was the main weapon used against us, and NZ put him into space. We have Gilroy and Kearney for that. In the centres, we have Spence. I think we really need to use these guys.

He wasn't though Rory...it just looked that way...it was Sonny Bill's hit ups that sucked our defence in allowing Smith, Jane and Savea acres of space to run in. BOD and Earls were drawn to him because of his size and offload threat.

We are running into set defences because we have no one capable of drawing defenders and breaking the gainline against an organised defence in midfield.

[rodders]

Yeah I am going to watch the U20s game anyway. Catch you later.

Enjoy!

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

I'm pretty sure the Australians might have something to say about the need for a so called target man at 12. Even Sonny Bill Williams who is a big lad is from a target man. Yes, he's a strong runner, but he is a footballer first and foremost with proper intelligence on the ball. There's no need for us to have a Jamie Roberts-esque 12 for two reasons. One, we don't have any one like that so the point is immediate moot. Secondly the best sides in the world for perfectly well without one. In fact it seems only teams with very limited attacking ambitions i.e. South Africa, England Wales play in this fashion.

I would rather he had someone at 12 with a rugby brain, who could create space for others outside him. For me that could be BOD if we persist with him there for a few matches. Maybe it could be Fitzgerald, Madiagn or Hanarahan in the medium to long term.

The key though which I think Rodders you might be forgetting is that it is hard for a back line to operate getting slow, static ball. I had thought our failing in the World Cup and to a lesser extent in the Six Nations was down to the pack not providing better quality possession. On Saturday they prodded the best base we have seen in a long time and yet the backs could still do nothing down to the very poor service of Murray. 9 is our problem, not 12. Murray has real potential and I genuinely don't understand why his service is so poor when he is so much better than what he is producing. Reddan on his best day is painfully average. Marshall has the main weakness for a scrum half of not being able to pass.

[clivemcl]

Wow, three tries in seven minutes for the u20s, this could get messy for Italy!

[rodders]

The key though which I think Rodders you might be forgetting is that it is hard for a back line to operate getting slow, static ball.

The whole point I've been making for the past 5 or 6 posts is about getting quick ball and eliminating static slow ball?

Sonny Bill Williams is one of the most talented and skillful player on the planet...that is why he is such a good target man, because he can draw defenders, break the line and offload.

Jamie Roberts is the same, Jon Davies... the list goes on.

You need a player, or players in midfield who can get you on the front foot.

[rodders]

I actually think Australia dominated Wales physically in the backs and generally... Wales were a bit surprised by that I think.

[Sin é]

So you agree that O'Mahony had a poor game, Sin? That he was at fault for the Thomson try?

I wasn't disappointed in his performance as he is young and needs a bit of time to develop. Having just rewatched the Thomson try, I don't think I'd point the finger at him in particular. He made his tackle, but he didn't manage to stop the offload to Read and Fergus McFadden was the only other player in the vicinity to prevent it.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

I agree Rodders, I just don't think he needs to be in the mould of Roberts or Davies or Barrett or that sort of player. I maybe took too literal an interpretation of 'target man'. If you put Murray in the Australian side they would't have beaten Wales, even after their back row totally schooled Lydiate, Warburton and Falateau at the breakdown. If you put Murray in the New Zealand side we still would have lost but it would have been much closer. My biggest problem with Kidney is that he wants to play functional limited rugby, like Wales do very successfully, but he doesn't have the players to do it. It's not that he selects the wrong players, its that they don't exist for the game plan. Therefore he needs to change the tactics and he has utterly failed in this respect. I'm afraid after Saturday I have joined the ranks of those who want Kidney replaced.

With proper tactics BOD-Earls could be a very successful partnership, but not with Kidney's tactics. But more than anything else we need a 9 who can provide even decent ball to the back line

[JmD]

So you agree that O'Mahony had a poor game, Sin? That he was at fault for the Thomson try?

I wasn't disappointed in his performance as he is young and needs a bit of time to develop. Having just rewatched the Thomson try, I don't think I'd point the finger at him in particular. He made his tackle, but he didn't manage to stop the offload to Read and Fergus McFadden was the only other player in the vicinity to prevent it.

Heaslip was at fault for the Thompson try, as Thompson is crossing the line Heaslip is only just lifting his head from the scrum. That is far too slow for an international 8.

[SecretFly]

The key though which I think Rodders you might be forgetting is that it is hard for a back line to operate getting slow, static ball. I had thought our failing in the World Cup and to a lesser extent in the Six Nations was down to the pack not providing better quality possession. On Saturday they prodded the best base we have seen in a long time and yet the backs could still do nothing down to the very poor service of Murray. 9 is our problem, not 12. Murray has real potential and I genuinely don't understand why his service is so poor when he is so much better than what he is producing. Reddan on his best day is painfully average. Marshall has the main weakness for a scrum half of not being able to pass.

We keep coming back to this one and I'm in no way saying you're wrong. You're right. But the question has to be asked. Kidney and his coaches are observing games, and then they are imparting their thoughts to the players, and then they are on the training ground directing tactics and setting up moves and generally setting up the players to play to the patterns they think are best suited to international rugby....................... against the best side at it!

So............. do we continue to blame Murray (and O'Leary before him) for his lack of insight into the beauty of fast delivery, fast thinking and variety of action........... or do we blame Kidney and fellow coaches for picking him........... or do we blame Kidney and fellow coaches for NOT emphasising the beauty of fast delivery and quickness of thought and deed...and DEMANDING that game of him?

Who do we blame for Murray? All too often on these boards I hear people talk who seem to think that coaches look at how players play naturally (or at least for their provinces) and then try to adapt a gameplan around them. So in Murray's case it would be that the coaches see he isn't all that fast but that they then do their homework and work around that to still have him in the side for his greater physical presence than Redden.

My thinking is that if they really feel the necessity for Murray then he should have his clear directions and he should be intensely drilled to improve the aspect of his game that needs improving. He can be thought to think and act quicker...there are players capable of doing so waiting on him...he has an obligation to give them a fighting chance...and the coaches have an obligation to change the nature of how he plays so that it affords Ireland better opportunities. That's why I criticise what I see..I don't see any active coaching. I see players playing without coaching eyes, ears or command calls to help them through.

[Sin é]

No but if I went searching I could find posts where you defended RoG,Leamy,Hayes,Horan,Flannery,DoC,Murray,ToL,maybe Buckley,Earls,Zebo and Kidney just off the top of my head.

I'm not going to do it as I couldn't be bothered but if you ask other posters I'm sure they can come up with more.

LOL. POM was criticised a few posts above and you made the claim that I defended ALL munster players. Maybe you are a bit set in your prejudices

bye the day, I've often defended D'Arcy & Fitz as well.

Maybe I'm the type of person who looks for the good bits (and I definately don't like some of the abuse dished out to some of the players here).

I hardly expect you to respond to every single post on here that criticises a Munster player.I'm sure you have a job and a life outside this forum.

You don't look for the good in Sexton you takle every opportunity to make digs at his expense.If you don't like some of the abuse dished out on here then why do you contribute to it?

The post was a few above your comment and I was obviously online LOL.

Only responding in kind (presumably what most understand here).

Its far more telling that you take issue with I offering any counter positive arguments about any players than anything negative I can say about one player, Sexton.

[asoreleftshoulder]

The post was a few above your comment and I was obviously online LOL.

Only responding in kind (presumably what most understand here).

Its far more telling that you take issue with I offering any counter positive arguments about any players than anything negative I can say about one player, Sexton.

You'll have to rewrite that last sentence,I have absolutely no clue what it means.

[BoyneRFC]

The post was a few above your comment and I was obviously online LOL.

Only responding in kind (presumably what most understand here).

Its far more telling that you take issue with I offering any counter positive arguments about any players than anything negative I can say about one player, Sexton.

You'll have to rewrite that last sentence,I have absolutely no clue what it means.

*bated breath icon....

[Sin é]

The post was a few above your comment and I was obviously online LOL.

Only responding in kind (presumably what most understand here).

Its far more telling that you take issue with I offering any counter positive arguments about any players than anything negative I can say about one player, Sexton.

You'll have to rewrite that last sentence,I have absolutely no clue what it means.

You are criticising me for disagreeing with your comments when I find something positive to say about players (like Leamy, D'Arcy, Fitz, ROG and being able to back up my comments) on a forum, while I get savaged for not rating Sexton.

[Rory_Gallagher]

It isn't that you don't rate Sexton, it is the fact you hate him as you have already explained to us so many times. Your opinions against him are based on complete misguided bias, and if he was the best player in the world, he would still get no praise from yourself.

[Mickado]

So what. Who cares what he thinks.

Jesus lads, don't feed the troll if it bothers you.

Opinions are like bumholes...

[Thomond]

There are a lot of people who rubbish what O'Gara has done for Ireland too, he may be past it now but he is certainly up there with our best outhalves. In terms of achievement as much as anything.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Is anyone watching the U20s then? It is half time atm. There are so many mistakes and our scrum is shocking.

[Thomond]

Italians are always pretty good at scrummaging. They obviously place a greater emphasis on it, they are taught better technique far younger than Irish kids. It's also our second choice front row, as far as I know.

[SecretFly]

There are a lot of people who rubbish what O'Gara has done for Ireland too, he may be past it now but he is certainly up there with our best outhalves. In terms of achievement as much as anything.

Certainly is Thomond. He owes nothing to us as followers and has an enviable record as flyhalf in Europe certainly. But I think for all of us, maybe the idea that "if you mock my dad, I'll mock yours" is a bit childish in our manly world of rugby union. If a player is underperforming - fair enough, he gets it in the neck from some quarters, and rightly so because that's criticism and the bad criticism can often follow the good. But to suggest a player will always underperform simply because as a person I don't like him...................................................... that's kind of a funny opinion but hardly a legitimate one.

[Mickado]

Is anyone watching the U20s then? It is half time atm. There are so many mistakes and our scrum is shocking.

No, i'm in work. Can you keep us updated please Rory?

[Thomond]

24-12 Micko. We went three tries up after 7 minutes and conceded 2 sloppy ones. An intercept and a knock on from a kick that was gathered. It contains a lot of second string guys but we need a bonus to have a chance of getting through to the quarters I think.

[asoreleftshoulder]

No I'm criticising you for making constant digs at Sexton to provoke a fight with Leinster fans usually when you are losing an argument.

You don't have to rate Sexton just leave out the snide digs when he's not even part of the debate.

I have no problem with you having something positive to say about players.I have a problem with you complaining when I criticise your digs at Sexton and claiming, "Lots of posters here bore the pants off me with their turn of phrase and comments, but I don't feel the need to object to everything they post."
It's not your turn of phrase,it's the constant sniping at Sexton even when we're talking about something else.

[Mickado]

We need to give everyone a run too (competition rules) so a BP win with the second string would be a good result.

[Mickado]

Just reading here that Furlong is on. Should help out in the scrum.

[asoreleftshoulder]

24-12 Micko. We went three tries up after 7 minutes and conceded 2 sloppy ones. An intercept and a knock on from a kick that was gathered. It contains a lot of second string guys but we need a bonus to have a chance of getting through to the quarters I think.

Who's the 13 he looks decent,has made some good runs and placed a few intelligent kicks so far.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Just reading here that Furlong is on. Should help out in the scrum.

We beasted them in the last scrum,he's made a huge difference already if he was on for that one.

[Thomond]

The Ginger lad? That's Nelson played the first 2 games at 15. He is possibly the msot ginger lad alive but a very good rugby player, can find gaps and has a decent kicking game. James Rael crosses the line, we have our 4 tries. I think the Qf outcome might depend on the England v SA game.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Yeah he's had a great game,scored the first try and created the last one he's looked very dangerous so far but hard to know if that's just because Italy are poor or he's a good OC.

[Sin é]

It isn't that you don't rate Sexton, it is the fact you hate him as you have already explained to us so many times. Your opinions against him are based on complete misguided bias, and if he was the best player in the world, he would still get no praise from yourself.

Nope. I don't hate him.

I just don't rate him as an international outhalf (he is a very fine club player though).

His personality doesn't appeal to me and I don't like how he behaved like a soccer hooligan (captured by camera) or his kick at mafi's head. That is just ugly behaviour.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Scrum is a weapon now lovely score for McGrath after a great shove from the scrum.

[Thomond]

Ooh ah Luke McGrath, say ooh ah Luke McGrath! Great scrum from Ireland McGrath picks, puts in a delicate chip down the sideline gathers, steps a defender and goes in. Scór den scoth! Ní fhéadfainn focal a rá!

[Mickado]

Sweet.

Thomond, I don't think there are QFs in this comp. It's straight to the Semis.

[rodders]

I agree Rodders, I just don't think he needs to be in the mould of Roberts or Davies or Barrett or that sort of player. I maybe took too literal an interpretation of 'target man'.

Yes sorry probably I didn't explain sufficiently enough... I think we are all in agreement that we need to produce quicker ball and get go forward... create space and utilise it more effectively..... jeebus it sounds so simple......

[SecretFly]

4 tries against the All Blacks???? We Have improved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What?.................... oh sorry, got carried away there

[Thomond]

I wasn't sure I read that right Micko. It said semis and I though that was a bit daft, depends on the result in the England game. Still, they have more matches to play whatever the result is. 36-12.

[rodders]

Ooh ah Luke McGrath, say ooh ah Luke McGrath! Great scrum from Ireland McGrath picks, puts in a delicate chip down the sideline gathers, steps a defender and goes in. Scór den scoth! Ní fhéadfainn focal a rá!

No idea what you said but I concur ....hey what the score?

Are Hendo and Hanaran playing?

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