Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry boys new thread other one is full.


Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362 (current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain. But last week's snow has melted at least)


courtesy of Taylorman:

NZ team named- only one change- Thompson for Vito (injured) with Sam Cane on the bench...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7098902/Thomson-in-for-Vito-Cane-on-All-Blacks-bench

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)


Tour Previews
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html

[Rory_Gallagher]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0614/1224317876505.html

A few amazing pieces of Kidney logic stick out for me there, mainly his choice to select McFadden on the wing as "left and right wing are two totally different positions". So he puts a centre on the wing. Not to mention the fact Trimble is probably better at 14 anyway.

As for the Duffy argument the other day, me and Notch were discussing how he might as well have went for Gilroy on the bench because he hasn't even picked Duffy in the 22. No full back cover for this game.

[rodders]

Rory its the biggest load of tripe I've ever read...this was a classic:

Given the scars of last week, it's surprising McFadden was the one retained, or failing that, that he isn't swapping wings.

"We could (switch), but left wing and right are two totally different positions," said Kidney, "so if you're exposed on the right you're definitely going to be exposed on the left."

...so basically there's no reason to switch McFadden because he'll get exposed on the either wing...so leave him where he is and play Trims on the left.... even though Kidney's logic for picking Zebo last week is that he plays on the left wing and Trimble doesn't??.....

[Rory_Gallagher]

http://whiffofcordite.com/2012/06/12/embattlement/

This article is even worse, believe it or not.

[The Great Aukster]

Kidney said that he had always planned to swap Zebo for Trimble, (nothing to do with Earls) and POM for McLaughlin. The plan presumably wasn't to move McFadden from 14 for this game either, so therefore he must stay there like a good soldier.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Is he not able to move from his original plan or something? I mean, clearly the game would influence your next move.

[rodders]

Thats the thing Aukster, it's obvious that these changes were either planned before the tour or enforce by injury. Clearly Kidney has no clue what went wrong last week or he'd be looking at a change at scrum half and replacing McFadden, who was all over the place defensively.

The man is clueless, totally out of his depth.. talks utter bollix and now has started trying to divert blame elsewhere, like blaming the provinces for the prop situation. The sooner he's gone the better.

[marty2086]

Is he not able to move from his original plan or something? I mean, clearly the game would influence your next move.

Think it backs up what I side earlier about there being no freedom with Ireland they cant break from the plan and react on their feet everything is about structure and routine and hoping it works out

[Rory_Gallagher]

Thats the thing Aukster, it's obvious that these changes were either planned before the tour or enforce by injury. Clearly Kidney has no clue what went wrong last week or he'd be looking at a change at scrum half and replacing McFadden, who was all over the place defensively.

The man is clueless, totally out of his depth.. talks utter bollix and now has started trying to divert blame elsewhere, like blaming the provinces for the prop situation. The sooner he's gone the better.

It has got to the point where he is going to cause lasting damage to the team IMO. I can't believe some of the crap he has said.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Is he not able to move from his original plan or something? I mean, clearly the game would influence your next move.

Think it backs up what I side earlier about there being no freedom with Ireland they cant break from the plan and react on their feet everything is about structure and routine and hoping it works out

Yeah, somehow he thinks one of these days everything will just magically fall into place, if he keeps doing the same thing.

[rodders]

The damage is done Rory, we've reached a critical mass of bad results and poor performcnces now...expectation, confidence and moral are lower than they've been since I can recall, maybe since the mid 90's...lower than in even 2007-2008.

No idea how we get out of this hole we're in but a result on Saturday would be a good start....

[Artful_Dodger]

One of the definitions of insanity isn't it - trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result each time.

[rodders]

If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten

Anthony Robbins .

[Rory_Gallagher]

Surely if we lose this entire tour, his position will be in jeopardy? We have beat one team ahead of us in the rankings in the last 15 games.

[aucklandlaurie]

Surely if we lose this entire tour, his position will be in jeopardy? We have beat one team ahead of us in the rankings in the last 15 games.

What are you complaining about? we havent beaten any.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Surely if we lose this entire tour, his position will be in jeopardy? We have beat one team ahead of us in the rankings in the last 15 games.

What are you complaining about? we havent beaten any.

[aucklandlaurie]

Just listening to Brian O'Driscoll in an interview on the radio, This saturday night is his first test in Christchurch since Tana flipped him upside down.

O'Driscoll said " Time heals old wounds... (pause)... Very old wounds".

[Sin é]

Surely if we lose this entire tour, his position will be in jeopardy? We have beat one team ahead of us in the rankings in the last 15 games.

Rory, bored in the other thread without me I see ?

[Otagolad]

Surely if we lose this entire tour, his position will be in jeopardy? We have beat one team ahead of us in the rankings in the last 15 games.

What are you complaining about? we havent beaten any.

Best comment on this thread by far.

TBH I thought the Canterbury v Auckland rivalry was quite intense but you Irish lads are in the midst of a civil war on this site. Any chance of talking about tactics and ways of combating the AB's etc. rather than "he was shoite" "no he wasn'[t he was"?

As far as the AB's, it is quite clear that they are trying to combat the defensive arrangements that all teams have perfected over the last few years (its become quite defensive out there) by choosing a halfback that not only clears the ball quickly but has a very long pass as well. It was interesting to note that the AB's last weekend used Aaron Smith to skip Carter and clear directly to SBW at 2nd five quite a number of times, which had the effect of taking O'Brien and the other Irish loosies out of the game and as SBW is quite tough to tackle it committed quite a number of Irish defenders to him meaning the next phase often resulted in mis-matches (backs on forwards) or overlaps. For all that I like the look of Perenara from Wellington there isn't anything he does that Smith doesn't do and as a halfback myself (some years ago and with a glacial pass) the difference a halfback with real speed of service/pass/delivery can make for the backs and at 2nd/3rd phase etc. is huge. It was interesting to note Carter said this week he was amazed how much extra time he had with Smith at 9 - he reckoned that he had at least a full second or more and for a player of Carter's quality giving him an extra second or so means game over for the opposition.

So how will the Irish combat the speed of the AB's game, particularly at 2nd/3rd etc. phase? Also interesting to note that Smith himself feels he can speed up the game even more - if that happens and the AB's execute then tomorrow may be a train wreck for the Irish.

[nganboy]

If Heaslip knees McCaw in the head it might slow him down a bit.

[Taylorman]

Hi ya Otagolad...yeah that pass is nice alright. Have watched the replay 3 times now and in Smith we've one good 9 alright. Plus he snipes, takes the ball up, feeds short and has transitioned to the next level of test rugby seamlessly...how lucky is that!

VERY reminiscent of Greame Bachop in his day- even looks a bit like him.

Agree with Perenara (and Kerr Barlow's another). These two are slightly stronger on the running/ physical game than Smith, who has the sweeter pass. The three will fight out the position I feel over the next 12 months but at the moment Smith holds the spot- hard to beat.

[Otagolad]

Hi Taylor,

Yeah, I've had some fun watching that game a few times on replay as well. Also great to see Dagg start to get back into a bit of form as he is, in my view, one of the best open field runners in world rugby (Beale at his best up there as well) - Dagg reminds me a lot of Glenn Osborne when he played at the '95 World Cup and the early Christian Cullen.

Also, I'm sure GG will know, but when was the last time the AB's fielded a non-Maori non-PI forward pack?

[Taylorman]

Very true. Be a long time since thats happened.
Teams in a really good zone at the moment.
Theyre expected to stretch them out further tomorrow but i dont think ireland are going let them have everything their way.

[mankiaow]

"TBH I thought the Canterbury v Auckland rivalry was quite intense but you Irish lads are in the midst of a civil war on this site. Any chance of talking about tactics and ways of combating the AB's etc. rather than "he was shoite" "no he wasn'[t he was"?"

I think the problem Irish fans have is we just don't know where to turn. We are exasperated at the way this team has been performing.

This is multiplied by the fact that NZ seem to be playing superbly and within themselves. How do we counter-act that? It's hard to see anything less than two more thumpings in the remaining tests.

[The Great Aukster]

So how will the Irish combat the speed of the AB's game, particularly at 2nd/3rd etc. phase? Also interesting to note that Smith himself feels he can speed up the game even more - if that happens and the AB's execute then tomorrow may be a train wreck for the Irish.

As the train has already crashed, can it crash again?

[clivemcl]

OK, we want to talk tactics then...

Seriously folks, I paused and rewound every try last weekend. I wanted to blame players. But honestly The ABs tries would probably still have been tries against any other team. They were just seriously quick hands and offloads. You can't defend against that quality.

All we can do (and anyone else) is try to keep as much possession as possible (no kicking!) and try to catch them on the hop with quick ball after we get over the gain line, and try to scrape a few scores ourselves.

Honestly the golden rule is *DONT GIVE THE ALL BLACKS THE BALL*

We cant lambast the defence. Just look at the scorelines of the NZ super 15 games. Both teams attack well, and both teams are prone to leaking tries from the fast offloading type of attack.

We need to keep the ball, we need to support our ball carriers, ideally we need to emulate the NZ passing and offloading (but not like BOD did it last week).

[Pete330v2]

"Honestly the golden rule is *DONT GIVE THE ALL BLACKS THE BALL*"

That is our greatest problem, kicking away our precious possession to the best side on the planet at squeezing the very best out of their own possession. It's a simple concept that seems to have eluded everyone in the Irish camp. Box kicks are something All Blacks thrive on for goodness sake.

That fella Gary Owen needs to be dropped from the side for good.

[eirebilly]

I have read through this and have had a great laugh. I swear to god that it reminded me of the time i left Ireland for a year, when i came back and went to the pub my mate asked me, How's your day been? My day, i had been away for a year.

Nothing ever changes and the same conversations go round and round. Got to love being Irish sometimes.

[The Great Aukster]

Great to hear you're on the mend EB. Be careful about posting on this site though as it carries a health warning!

[Taylorman]

Welcome back billy! Your team just may need ya tomorrow so get in there and back your boys. Its still an open series and good luck to them. Im expecting a more tighter Irish display where things wont be given away so easily this time.

[eirebilly]

Thanks TGA and Taylorman, great to be back for short periods

Ireland by 5 tomorrow, my broken bones have spoken

[disneychilly]

I'd say the weather could be a leveller but then again it didn't do too much for Ireland against Spain last night at the Euros.

Kicking is a weapon when it's accurate and I understand why they'd attack that way with the ABs bereft of Jane and Kahui. However that kicking was atrocious and aimless. Much too long which is why you got killed. Kudos to the NZ line speed for that.

Hope it's dry so that Smith can get it to SBW on the burst directly. Takes out the Irish loosies ensuring he'll always make yards-then the resultant quick phase ball lets us cause havoc against backpedalling unorganised defences.

[BoyneRFC]

I'd say the weather could be a leveller but then again it didn't do too much for Ireland against Spain last night at the Euros.

Eh, soccerball and rugby arent actually the same games, you know that dont you? It might give you a clue as to why we never see "the all whites" at any international competitions..

[disneychilly]

You mean the only unbeaten side at the football world cup?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

I'd say the weather could be a leveller but then again it didn't do too much for Ireland against Spain last night at the Euros.

Eh, soccerball and rugby arent actually the same games, you know that dont you? It might give you a clue as to why we never see "the all whites" at any international competitions..

The All Whites were the only unbeaten team at the 2010 FWC finals in SA

Of course last week they did get knocked out of the Oceania Nations Cup by New Caledonia
(playing semi-finals in 45 degree heat can produce "odd" results)

[Notch]

As Mickado said last night, if only we were playing New Zealand at football and Spain at the rugby!

[disneychilly]

Plus if you don't believe inclement weather is detrimental to both attacking rugby and attacking football you need your head read.

KRD you're not supposed to bring that up.

[aucklandlaurie]

I'd say the weather could be a leveller but then again it didn't do too much for Ireland against Spain last night at the Euros.

Kicking is a weapon when it's accurate and I understand why they'd attack that way with the ABs bereft of Jane and Kahui. However that kicking was atrocious and aimless. Much too long which is why you got killed. Kudos to the NZ line speed for that.

Hope it's dry so that Smith can get it to SBW on the burst directly. Takes out the Irish loosies ensuring he'll always make yards-then the resultant quick phase ball lets us cause havoc against backpedalling unorganised defences.

Excellant point Disney, Kicking in itself need not neccesarily be a bad thing, however the type of kick can, and too many of Irelands kicks were too long,No chasers had a chance, and a kick is only as good as the chase.
I would also say that last week the ground and ball were wet and both teams needed to put a few grubbers along the floor.

[BoyneRFC]

As Mickado said last night, if only we were playing New Zealand at football and Spain at the rugby!

[BoyneRFC]

The All Whites were the only unbeaten team at the 2010 FWC finals in SA

Indeed. You were well set up for a tough tourny playing qualification matches against Samoa, Papua New Guinea and the like !!

[aucklandlaurie]

Dont mention that spanish soccer team, Theyre are the ones that beat the All Blacks for International Sports team of the year two years ago.

[disneychilly]

We never win that bloody Laureus award!

At least the All Whites made it through qualification though...

Kicking could again be a weapon tomorrow-wind and rain playing a part. The Irish kids grow up with Gaelic Football and shoite weather so kicking tomorrow could be right up their alley. Expect Carter to reach into his bag of tricks too. His restarts are incredible and I'm sure the Irish will try and rush up to cut down the space afforded him by Smith's delivery so chips and grubbers could be the order of the day.

[rodders]

I thought the Kiwis slaughtered us in the tactical kicking department last week so I wouldn't concur that wet weather will favour us.

A few Garryowens might bring Kearney into the game but our kick chase was appalling last week... both wings were extremely poor. Hopefully Trimble will bring something there but he is much better on the right wing.

[disneychilly]

Ah you gotta get back on the horse Rodders. Ireland's kickers had an off day but it's a great strength of yours so no reason to shy away from it after having a bad day. You just have to back your execution. Though it's up to the pack to lay a platform for accurate kicking. You're dead right on the kick chase though. Even if the kicks had been shallower it wouldn't have made any difference. Your guys were quite lazy in that regard.

[rodders]

The horse is ready for the knackers yard disney....

I'm not sure kicking has been a strength of ours for a while now. Leinster don't kick a lot and ROG has lost his kicking range.

The provinces don't actually kick a lot, bar Pienaar for Ulster and I think that is a problem. Wales have really exposed our tactical kicking too.

I'd like to see Kearney used a bit more because he has a fairly good range but if we get into a kicking dual we will come off second best for sure.... Carter and Dagg can kick the ball for miles... the ABs just really kept us pegged back with the boot last week and we repeadedly ran ourselves into trouble.

Apart from cutting down on the handling errors, commiting less numbers to the breakdown in defence and maybe kicking a bit less and better... there's not too much we can do differently I think.

Hopefully the scrum will hold up better though over the 80min with Ross starting and Fitzpatrick on the bench.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

In the interests of balance on this thread, let me add my two cents.

Canterbury is way better than Auckland and I'm not just talking about rugby. Todd Blackadder should be the national coach. Hansen is just not getting the best out of his players. What is Weepu and Williams doing in the side?! It should be Ellis and Romano, good Canterbury men.

[rodders]

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Actually I wasn't joking about the Weepu and Williams part. If you pressed Hansen asking him why Weepu is in the team, I think you´ll find the answer would be his leadership... in the haka... and the KFC queue.

[clivemcl]

I actually dont know why people are saying there is provincial bickering? I think (compared to usual) theres been very little. The bickering is more to do with Kidney being a bad coach and only one man on here is taking his side on this.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

I think there is a general consensus that Kidney is not doing a good enough job but where the so-called bickering comes in clive is who should be playing in the first squad and inevitably this brings out debate along provincial lines. To Zebo or not to Zebo, that is the question along with McFadden, D'Arcy, Earls ad nauseum and Kidney suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Literally the provincial crap has been caused by one person. Nobody else cares about how many Leinster/Munster/Ulster players are on the team. To Zebo or not to Zebo, has to do with his own performance, not his province. Nobody else is putting a provincial tag to their performances kia.

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