Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry boys new thread other one is full.


Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362 (current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain. But last week's snow has melted at least)


courtesy of Taylorman:

NZ team named- only one change- Thompson for Vito (injured) with Sam Cane on the bench...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7098902/Thomson-in-for-Vito-Cane-on-All-Blacks-bench

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)


Tour Previews
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html

[Pete330v2]

[quote="Sin é"]

No Reddan no win.
Add that to playing Trimble playing out of position to facilitate a centre who really isn't best played on the wing and I ask you, is Kidney truely that gormless and blind?

Getting the excuses in early I see

Someone has to

[Sin é]

Zebo Heineken Cup - 4 tries in 5 starts. (Gilroy 3 tries in 9 starts)

I'm not saying Gilroy hasn't been playing well. He hasn't being scoring a lot of tries this season.

He made Hurley look silly - who isn't pacy enough (and who you may have noticed isn't in New Zealand either).

Not the try scoring thing again! Can I put this really simply...

If players with numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 15 are scoring tries (or kicking points), then players 11 and 14 will be scoring less tries. You cannot isolate two wingers from completely different sides and compare their try scoring as if they were provided with the same chances, the same amount of ball, playing the same gameplan.

Tries are not an adequate representation of a wingers talent and you know it!

I said he was a good player, but you need at least one good finisher in your side out wide. All players need to play the basics of their positions - i.e., a prop scrummage, a hooker hit his man in the lineout, a lock win ball in the lineout etc. etc. The issue with the Ireland team is that 1-15 are not really scoring tries so its a good idea to have at least one good finisher. Pity for Gilroy that Bowe isn't fit, he might be a good bet then.

[clivemcl]

Zebo Heineken Cup - 4 tries in 5 starts. (Gilroy 3 tries in 9 starts)

I'm not saying Gilroy hasn't been playing well. He hasn't being scoring a lot of tries this season.

He made Hurley look silly - who isn't pacy enough (and who you may have noticed isn't in New Zealand either).

Not the try scoring thing again! Can I put this really simply...

If players with numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 15 are scoring tries (or kicking points), then players 11 and 14 will be scoring less tries. You cannot isolate two wingers from completely different sides and compare their try scoring as if they were provided with the same chances, the same amount of ball, playing the same gameplan.

Tries are not an adequate representation of a wingers talent and you know it!

I said he was a good player, but you need at least one good finisher in your side out wide. All players need to play the basics of their positions - i.e., a prop scrummage, a hooker hit his man in the lineout, a lock win ball in the lineout etc. etc. The issue with the Ireland team is that 1-15 are not really scoring tries so its a good idea to have at least one good finisher. Pity for Gilroy that Bowe isn't fit, he might be a good bet then.

I'll give you credit if you show me some instances where Gilroy didnt 'finish' tries you think Zebo would have. Truth is, you are basing Gilroys ability as a finisher on the number of tries he's scored. I've already highlighted the folly of this.

[Sin é]

ha, Gibson, i wasnt actually taking it thick, more like continuing the ridiculous.

by the way I was hinting at option c) rather than having a go at Leinsters players!

Cool man.

TBH, we miss 1F and T Bowe badly. And POC. No sheet. We cant afford to be without them. That much was obvious last weekend.

i do agree, but it annoys me that we cant still be clinical without them. Take three core players out of NZ, Aus, SA, France, England, even maybe Wales, and they dont have a huge drop in ability. Theres still enough talent there to be doing a LOT better.

NZ were pretty poor without Carter, and they pumped Richie full of drugs to keep him playing. How much did Aus miss Pocock for the Ireland world cup game?

[MrsP]

https://www.606v2.com/t30961-the-thread-for-sin-e-et-al-to-discuss-whether

[Sin é]

Zebo Heineken Cup - 4 tries in 5 starts. (Gilroy 3 tries in 9 starts)

I'm not saying Gilroy hasn't been playing well. He hasn't being scoring a lot of tries this season.

He made Hurley look silly - who isn't pacy enough (and who you may have noticed isn't in New Zealand either).

Not the try scoring thing again! Can I put this really simply...

If players with numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 15 are scoring tries (or kicking points), then players 11 and 14 will be scoring less tries. You cannot isolate two wingers from completely different sides and compare their try scoring as if they were provided with the same chances, the same amount of ball, playing the same gameplan.

Tries are not an adequate representation of a wingers talent and you know it!

I said he was a good player, but you need at least one good finisher in your side out wide. All players need to play the basics of their positions - i.e., a prop scrummage, a hooker hit his man in the lineout, a lock win ball in the lineout etc. etc. The issue with the Ireland team is that 1-15 are not really scoring tries so its a good idea to have at least one good finisher. Pity for Gilroy that Bowe isn't fit, he might be a good bet then.

I'll give you credit if you show me some instances where Gilroy didnt 'finish' tries you think Zebo would have. Truth is, you are basing Gilroys ability as a finisher on the number of tries he's scored. I've already highlighted the folly of this.

Crickey, Zebo is playing for a team that has the worst outhalf & scrumhalf every to play the game of rugby. How do you think Gilroy would do in that situation?

I would also say that Zebo is just brilliant at claiming restarts, so its not just his ability to finish. He also has a great left boot on him.

[disneychilly]

ha, Gibson, i wasnt actually taking it thick, more like continuing the ridiculous.

by the way I was hinting at option c) rather than having a go at Leinsters players!

Cool man.

TBH, we miss 1F and T Bowe badly. And POC. No sheet. We cant afford to be without them. That much was obvious last weekend.

i do agree, but it annoys me that we cant still be clinical without them. Take three core players out of NZ, Aus, SA, France, England, even maybe Wales, and they dont have a huge drop in ability. Theres still enough talent there to be doing a LOT better.

NZ were pretty poor without Carter, and they pumped Richie full of drugs to keep him playing. How much did Aus miss Pocock for the Ireland world cup game?

If you call being able to win a World Cup poor then I'll take that criticism every time. So what are NZ like with Carter? Average?

[Pete330v2]

Irish team:

15 - Rob Kearney - I'd have given him 7/10 for his performance by his standard, I expect a 9/10 for this game. He never lets us down.
14 - Fergus McFadden - I can't imagine why Kidney thinks this is a good choice but I expect to see him exposed once again, hardly fair on the player.
13 - Brian O'Driscoll - IMO he seemed desperate to prove something when he has nothing to prove but still played so well. Back to vintage O'Driscoll this weekend.
12 - Gordon D'Arcy - If he's on top of his game he and BOD still make good centre partnership, unfortunately we need something more, something we just don't have. Fingers crossed here.
11 - Andrew Trimble - Right and left wingers have different skill sets. Trimble being a right winger always looks a little high and dry at 11 in my opinion and is better employed at 14.
10 - Jonathan Sexton - Doesn't have the same playing relationship with Murray and can't play his best game because of it.
9 - Conor Murray - Panicy and slow at times and physicality means nothing if the other aspects of your game don't come up to scratch. I so much want to see him do well but he and Sexton just don't gel.
1 - Cian Healy - Pure class, I love to see his name on the team sheet.
2 - Rory Best - Rory's becoming an animal, a beast. An example to all around him.
3 - Mike Ross - Good to see him back and with Fitzy on the bench at least we're covered at TH.
4 - Dan Tuohy - Needs a hell of a game, so physical and athletic for Ulster all season but went missing last week IMO.
5 - Donnacha Ryan - He just needs to keep doing what he's doing, he's a physical presence and our future at 5.
6 - Kevin McLaughlin - A good choice at last from Kidney, it's sad to see POM dropped but Kevin has his time to shine and I fully expect him to.
7 - Sean O'Brien - No need to say anything here. What a beast of a player.
8 - Jamie Heaslip - Played well enough to retain his place and didn't knee anyone in the head.

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin - Will come on to have a few searing runs, I love to see him with ball in hand....ooooo matron!!
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick - Has proved that he needs to be on Irish teams sheets from now on, well done Dekkie.
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan - This is the same DOC we always get isn't it? I am confused, I thought his time had gone.
19 - Peter O'Mahony - I'm a fan of this guy and think he was unlucky not to have been given another starting chance.
20 - Eoin Reddan - SHOULD HAVE STARTED WITH SEXTON
21 - Ronan O'Gara - SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT AT THE BAGGAGE CAROUSEL
22 - Simon Zebo - Played well and should have started with Trimble on the opposite wing.

[Sin é]

ha, Gibson, i wasnt actually taking it thick, more like continuing the ridiculous.

by the way I was hinting at option c) rather than having a go at Leinsters players!

Cool man.

TBH, we miss 1F and T Bowe badly. And POC. No sheet. We cant afford to be without them. That much was obvious last weekend.

i do agree, but it annoys me that we cant still be clinical without them. Take three core players out of NZ, Aus, SA, France, England, even maybe Wales, and they dont have a huge drop in ability. Theres still enough talent there to be doing a LOT better.

NZ were pretty poor without Carter, and they pumped Richie full of drugs to keep him playing. How much did Aus miss Pocock for the Ireland world cup game?

If you call being able to win a World Cup poor then I'll take that criticism every time. So what are NZ like with Carter? Average?

Average enough to need the help of the ref to get them over the line. You forget they got knocked out in '07 when Carter got injured?

[MrsP]

Love the edit Pete!

[Gibson]

Irish team:

15 - Rob Kearney - I'd have given him 7/10 for his performance by his standard, I expect a 9/10 for this game. He never lets us down.
14 - Fergus McFadden - I can't imagine why Kidney thinks this is a good choice but I expect to see him exposed once again, hardly fair on the player.
13 - Brian O'Driscoll - IMO he seemed desperate to prove something when he has nothing to prove but still played so well. Back to vintage O'Driscoll this weekend.
12 - Gordon D'Arcy - If he's on top of his game he and BOD still make good centre partnership, unfortunately we need something more, something we just don't have. Fingers crossed here.
11 - Andrew Trimble - Right and left wingers have different skill sets. Trimble being a right winger always looks a little high and dry at 11 in my opinion and is better employed at 14.
10 - Jonathan Sexton - Doesn't have the same playing relationship with Murray and can't play his best game because of it.
9 - Conor Murray - Panicy and slow at times and physicality means nothing if the other aspects of your game don't come up to scratch. I so much want to see him do well but he and Sexton just don't gel.
1 - Cian Healy - Pure class, I love to see his name on the team sheet.
2 - Rory Best - Rory's becoming an animal, a beast. An example to all around him.
3 - Mike Ross - Good to see him back and with Fitzy on the bench at least we're covered at TH.
4 - Dan Tuohy - Needs a hell of a game, so physical and athletic for Ulster all season but went missing last week IMO.
5 - Donnacha Ryan - He just needs to keep doing what he's doing, he's a physical presence and our future at 5.
6 - Kevin McLaughlin - A good choice at last from Kidney, it's sad to see POM dropped but Kevin has his time to shine and I fully expect him to.
7 - Sean O'Brien - No need to say anything here. What a beast of a player.
8 - Jamie Heaslip - Played well enough to retain his place and didn't knee anyone in the head.

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin - Will come on to have a few searing runs, I love to see him with ball in hand....ooooo matron!!
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick - Has proved that he needs to be on Irish teams sheets from now on, well done Dekkie.
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan - This is the same DOC we always get isn't it? I am confused, I thought his time had gone.
19 - Peter O'Mahony - I'm a fan of this guy and think he was unlucky not to have been given another starting chance.
20 - Eoin Reddan - SHOULD HAVE STARTED WITH SEXTON
21 - Ronan O'Gara - SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT AT THE BAGGAGE CAROUSEL
22 - Simon Zebo - Played well and should have started with Trimble on the opposite wing.

Love it Pete. Spot on.

[Pete330v2]

Irish team:

15 - Rob Kearney - I'd have given him 7/10 for his performance by his standard, I expect a 9/10 for this game. He never lets us down.
14 - Fergus McFadden - I can't imagine why Kidney thinks this is a good choice but I expect to see him exposed once again, hardly fair on the player.
13 - Brian O'Driscoll - IMO he seemed desperate to prove something when he has nothing to prove but still played so well. Back to vintage O'Driscoll this weekend.
12 - Gordon D'Arcy - If he's on top of his game he and BOD still make good centre partnership, unfortunately we need something more, something we just don't have. Fingers crossed here.
11 - Andrew Trimble - Right and left wingers have different skill sets. Trimble being a right winger always looks a little high and dry at 11 in my opinion and is better employed at 14.
10 - Jonathan Sexton - Doesn't have the same playing relationship with Murray and can't play his best game because of it.
9 - Conor Murray - Panicy and slow at times and physicality means nothing if the other aspects of your game don't come up to scratch. I so much want to see him do well but he and Sexton just don't gel.
1 - Cian Healy - Pure class, I love to see his name on the team sheet.
2 - Rory Best - Rory's becoming an animal, a beast. An example to all around him.
3 - Mike Ross - Good to see him back and with Fitzy on the bench at least we're covered at TH.
4 - Dan Tuohy - Needs a hell of a game, so physical and athletic for Ulster all season but went missing last week IMO.
5 - Donnacha Ryan - He just needs to keep doing what he's doing, he's a physical presence and our future at 5.
6 - Kevin McLaughlin - A good choice at last from Kidney, it's sad to see POM dropped but Kevin has his time to shine and I fully expect him to.
7 - Sean O'Brien - No need to say anything here. What a beast of a player.
8 - Jamie Heaslip - Played well enough to retain his place and didn't knee anyone in the head.

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin - Will come on to have a few searing runs, I love to see him with ball in hand....ooooo matron!!
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick - Has proved that he needs to be on Irish teams sheets from now on, well done Dekkie.
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan - This is the same DOC we always get isn't it? I am confused, I thought his time had gone.
19 - Peter O'Mahony - I'm a fan of this guy and think he was unlucky not to have been given another starting chance.
20 - Eoin Reddan - SHOULD HAVE STARTED WITH SEXTON
21 - Ronan O'Gara - SHOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT AT THE BAGGAGE CAROUSEL
22 - Simon Zebo - Played well and should have started with Trimble on the opposite wing.

Love it Pete. Spot on.

Love you too....oops!!

[disneychilly]

ha, Gibson, i wasnt actually taking it thick, more like continuing the ridiculous.

by the way I was hinting at option c) rather than having a go at Leinsters players!

Cool man.

TBH, we miss 1F and T Bowe badly. And POC. No sheet. We cant afford to be without them. That much was obvious last weekend.

i do agree, but it annoys me that we cant still be clinical without them. Take three core players out of NZ, Aus, SA, France, England, even maybe Wales, and they dont have a huge drop in ability. Theres still enough talent there to be doing a LOT better.

NZ were pretty poor without Carter, and they pumped Richie full of drugs to keep him playing. How much did Aus miss Pocock for the Ireland world cup game?

If you call being able to win a World Cup poor then I'll take that criticism every time. So what are NZ like with Carter? Average?

Average enough to need the help of the ref to get them over the line. You forget they got knocked out in '07 when Carter got injured?

Noone in NZ forgets that mate. The ref didn't exactly help NZ in that game and the other world class 10 happened to get injured too. Tell you what if Barnes had reffed the final and Carter had been fit NZ would have won by more. Weepu's gift was the only time France looked like scoring a try-NZ's defence was magnificent. Didn't think they were poor vs Aussie in the semi either.

[MMC]

- Ross in for Fitzpatrick, fair enough.

- D'Arcy in for the injured Earls- no problems there.

- McLaughlin for O'Mahony is a 50/50 that IMO should've gone with POM but I'm not too bothered by that decision.

- Keeping McFadden who was so cruelly exposed as being out of position while replacing the "not-as-bad-but-could-improve" Zebo on the left wing with a RIGHT winger is one of the most baffling decisions I've seen Kidney make in a while.

I think my patience has just about run out with him.

[Sin é]

ha, Gibson, i wasnt actually taking it thick, more like continuing the ridiculous.

by the way I was hinting at option c) rather than having a go at Leinsters players!

Cool man.

TBH, we miss 1F and T Bowe badly. And POC. No sheet. We cant afford to be without them. That much was obvious last weekend.

i do agree, but it annoys me that we cant still be clinical without them. Take three core players out of NZ, Aus, SA, France, England, even maybe Wales, and they dont have a huge drop in ability. Theres still enough talent there to be doing a LOT better.

NZ were pretty poor without Carter, and they pumped Richie full of drugs to keep him playing. How much did Aus miss Pocock for the Ireland world cup game?

If you call being able to win a World Cup poor then I'll take that criticism every time. So what are NZ like with Carter? Average?

Average enough to need the help of the ref to get them over the line. You forget they got knocked out in '07 when Carter got injured?

Noone in NZ forgets that mate. The ref didn't exactly help NZ in that game and the other world class 10 happened to get injured too. Tell you what if Barnes had reffed the final and Carter had been fit NZ would have won by more. Weepu's gift was the only time France looked like scoring a try-NZ's defence was magnificent. Didn't think they were poor vs Aussie in the semi either.

NZ are a different team with Carter pulling the strings though. Compare the two v. French world cup games. In the first one, NZ (with Carter) scored 5 tries.

2nd game it was just a Woodcock try and a penalty. As soon as Carter was out, the tries dried up from the backs for the ABs.

[disneychilly]

I agree with you there. I'm just debating your point that they were poor in general. I'm not sure whose standards you were judging them on.

[Rava]

- Ross in for Fitzpatrick, fair enough.

- D'Arcy in for the injured Earls- no problems there.

- McLaughlin for O'Mahony is a 50/50 that IMO should've gone with POM but I'm not too bothered by that decision.

- Keeping McFadden who was so cruelly exposed as being out of position while replacing the "not-as-bad-but-could-improve" Zebo on the left wing with a RIGHT winger is one of the most baffling decisions I've seen Kidney make in a while.

I think my patience has just about run out with him.

This I can agree with. If anyone can come up with an explanation for this I'd love to hear it.

I predicted D'Arcy would start. I'm not altogether happy with it but our options aren't great.
If Ross is fully fit then no problem him starting over Deccie. I just hope the both of them survive to be around again next weekend.
I like the look of the back row for this one. POM shouldn't be too despondent. This would have been a close call.

The fact he dropped Zebo is silly as I said but to have him covering the outside backs on the bench is then also a strange decision. Fully expect to see the Sexton to 12/ROG to 10 change around 55 or 60 minutes.

[Sin é]

- Ross in for Fitzpatrick, fair enough.

- D'Arcy in for the injured Earls- no problems there.

- McLaughlin for O'Mahony is a 50/50 that IMO should've gone with POM but I'm not too bothered by that decision.

- Keeping McFadden who was so cruelly exposed as being out of position while replacing the "not-as-bad-but-could-improve" Zebo on the left wing with a RIGHT winger is one of the most baffling decisions I've seen Kidney make in a while.

I think my patience has just about run out with him.

I think all those calls are fair enough. I suspect that Zebo was dropped because Earls is out (used to playing with each other at provincial level*) and Andrew Trimble generally plays on that side anyway when playing for Ireland, so BOD & D'Arcy combo is nothing new to him.

If Earls is fit next week, I'd expect Zebo to be reinstated with Trimble on the right wing and McFadden dropped to the bench. Good rotation of your wingers.

*Another reason for why Zebo might have been preferred to Gilroy.

[Sin é]

I agree with you there. I'm just debating your point that they were poor in general. I'm not sure whose standards you were judging them on.

The ABs are more or less unbeatable with Carter & McCaw. Take the two of them out, and they are. Similar situation for Ireland (though Ireland are always beatable ) when BOD & POC are out.

[The Great Aukster]

The Mcfadden selection smacks of stubborn egotism.

McFadden was a poor pick for the first test but Kidney doesn't want to back down and prefers to undermine young Zebo rather than admit his mistake.

Presumably taking pity on Zebo he puts him on the bench, rather than his 15 cover pick Duffy! So presumably Duffy is third choice 15 after Kearney and... er... hmmm...
For those with who are still rational it is clear that Kidney is losing his marbles at such a rate, Les Kiss may have to take over for the third Test.

[MMC]

- Ross in for Fitzpatrick, fair enough.

- D'Arcy in for the injured Earls- no problems there.

- McLaughlin for O'Mahony is a 50/50 that IMO should've gone with POM but I'm not too bothered by that decision.

- Keeping McFadden who was so cruelly exposed as being out of position while replacing the "not-as-bad-but-could-improve" Zebo on the left wing with a RIGHT winger is one of the most baffling decisions I've seen Kidney make in a while.

I think my patience has just about run out with him.

I think all those calls are fair enough. I suspect that Zebo was dropped because Earls is out (used to playing with each other at provincial level*) and Andrew Trimble generally plays on that side anyway when playing for Ireland, so BOD & D'Arcy combo is nothing new to him.

If Earls is fit next week, I'd expect Zebo to be reinstated with Trimble on the right wing and McFadden dropped to the bench. Good rotation of your wingers.

*Another reason for why Zebo might have been preferred to Gilroy.

But McFadden shouldn't be one of our wingers Sin. It's one thing having a rotation policy but surely on the "first rotation" - for want of a better phrase - you bench the guy who performed less well.

As for Trimble playing at 11 for Ireland that's only because the right wing is also Bowe's favourite side.

If anything, even the fact that McFadden covers multiple positions from the bench ahead of Zebo's one is another reason to put him there.

On the issue of cover for different positions, Earls is a big loss really.

[Pete330v2]

- Ross in for Fitzpatrick, fair enough.

- D'Arcy in for the injured Earls- no problems there.

- McLaughlin for O'Mahony is a 50/50 that IMO should've gone with POM but I'm not too bothered by that decision.

- Keeping McFadden who was so cruelly exposed as being out of position while replacing the "not-as-bad-but-could-improve" Zebo on the left wing with a RIGHT winger is one of the most baffling decisions I've seen Kidney make in a while.

I think my patience has just about run out with him.

I think all those calls are fair enough. I suspect that Zebo was dropped because Earls is out (used to playing with each other at provincial level*) and Andrew Trimble generally plays on that side anyway when playing for Ireland, so BOD & D'Arcy combo is nothing new to him.

If Earls is fit next week, I'd expect Zebo to be reinstated with Trimble on the right wing and McFadden dropped to the bench. Good rotation of your wingers.

*Another reason for why Zebo might have been preferred to Gilroy.

But plays all season at 14......
He isn't even on his greatest form at 14 but utterly unproven at 11.

Mind you he'll have to get used to it with the return of the Bowe to Ulster

[Rava]

From the Independent -

NUMBER OF THE DAY

1-- The number of Ireland victories over a side ranked above them in their last 15 matches (Australia at the World Cup).

[red_stag]

Surely Trimble will lose out for Ulster next season:

01 Court
02 Best
03 Afoa

04 Muller
05 Tuohy

06 Ferris
07 Henry
08 Wilson

09 Pienaar
10 Jackson

11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Cave
14 Bowe
15 Payne

16 Herring
17 McAllister
18 Fitzpatrick
19 Stevenson
20 Botes
21 Marshall
22 Spence
23 Trimble

[red_stag]

From the Independent -

NUMBER OF THE DAY

1-- The number of Ireland victories over a side ranked above them in their last 15 matches (Australia at the World Cup).

My god

[red_stag]

From the Independent -

NUMBER OF THE DAY

1-- The number of Ireland victories over a side ranked above them in their last 15 matches (Australia at the World Cup).

NUMBER OF THE DAY

15-- The number of Ireland MORAL victories over a side ranked above them in their last 15 matches.

[MMC]

Surely Bowe Trimble? will lose out for Ulster next season:

01 Court
02 Best
03 Afoa

04 Muller
05 Tuohy

06 Ferris
07 Henry
08 Wilson

09 Pienaar
10 Jackson

11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Cave
14 Bowe
15 Payne

16 Herring
17 McAllister
18 Fitzpatrick
19 Stevenson
20 Botes
21 Marshall
22 Spence
23 Trimble

That's a very very good looking team!

[Rava]

Wrong thread Stag, but I'd wait and see how the new coach calls it.
I can see a lot of rotation between the wingers so I don't think its as clear as you have indicated.

[Rava]

From the Independent -

NUMBER OF THE DAY

1-- The number of Ireland victories over a side ranked above them in their last 15 matches (Australia at the World Cup).

NUMBER OF THE DAY

15-- The number of Ireland MORAL victories over a side ranked above them in their last 15 matches.

[red_stag]

Oops wrong thread indeed.

Yes there will always be rotation as Bowe and either Gilroy/Trimble are going to be spending a fair bit of time with the national team etc.

But for the big Heineken Cup showdowns - a must win match against Northampton in Europe I reckon thats what they will be going for.

[Thomond]

No Zebo= joke. McFadden shouldn't be near that side. Okay with D'Arcy, I mean Earls is out. McLaughlin being in is fair enough, POM wasn't at his best.
I think we need a combination of Murray/Reddan. There's a reason Reddan doesn't start a lot of the away HC games. Unleash Reddan at half time or 50 minutes in and see what he can do.

[Rava]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0614/1224317876505.html

Kidney gives Murray his backing at nine - GERRY THORNLEY in Christchurch

On the premise that some of those who underperformed in the first Test will now be more acquainted with the unremittingly rapid tempo when playing the All Blacks, Declan Kidney has limited changes to the Irish team beaten 42-10 in Auckland last Saturday for this Saturday's second Test in Christchurch.

The fit-again Mike Ross returns at tighthead for Declan Fitzpatrick, while Gordon D'Arcy renews his world record midfield partnership with Brian O'Driscoll, who in turn reverts to his more familiar outside entre role in the absence of Keith Earls. The only other changes see Andrew Trimble recalled, with Simon Zebo dropping to the bench, and Kevin McLaughlin is promoted at the expense of Peter O'Mahony.

Kidney has thus retained Dan Tuohy, a relatively subdued performer in the first Test, on the basis that he is a better player than he showed in Eden Park, Conor Murray (whose service certainly needs to sharpen up) and Fergus McFadden, who also had a difficult night defensively, and whose direct counterpart, Julian Savea, scored a hat-trick on his debut.

The wonder is that with an all-Leinster backrow and a 10-12-13 Leinster axis in midfield, Kidney didn't opt for the Leinster linkman at the hub of that Heineken Cup combination, namely Eoin Reddan. Instead, Kidney has persisted with Murray. Given Ireland's approach was to play almost everything through Jonathan Sexton, it's surprising that he wasn't outside Reddan, with whom he enjoys a familiar and intuitive partnership.

"I suppose, I wasn't looking at where they were from, what I was looking at was how guys are going," said Kidney. "I would be tempted to go with Redser all right. In fairness he's unlucky not to be going. We're giving Conor a backing . . . Redser's unlucky but it never has anything to do with where fellas are from. Sometimes you do get any combinations like that but Conor and Johnny have had a fair few games together under their belt too.

"He has a strong defensive game but Conor will learn. He is in his first year of Test rugby. To be doing what he's doing; he has 10 caps under his belt but it's still the first year of Test rugby and of Heineken Cup. There's been a hell of a lot of learning this year. He's done some good things, he's done some things that at other times you have to see where you're going to go with somebody, and yea, Redser is unlucky. I said that to him."

"Redser came in for 20 minutes the last day. He did a lot of things right, a few things where there was a bit of pressure on him too. There's a balance in everything. There's no point in me giving you one word for it other than saying yea, Conor is getting a bit of backing this week."

Kidney intimated that recalling Trimble had been partially a pre-laid plan. "We gave Simon (Zebo) a run in the Baa Baas match and last week's match, he did some good things and there are some things he has to work on. Andrew played the whole Six Nations for us and is probably one of the highest fellahs in terms of game time during the season so I didn't think it was prudent to play him in all four games so on the back of the Baa Baas match we gave Simon the first Test and now Andrew."

Given the scars of last week, it's surprising McFadden was the one retained, or failing that, that he isn't swapping wings.

"We could (switch), but left wing and right are two totally different positions," said Kidney, "so if you're exposed on the right you're definitely going to be exposed on the left."

McLaughlin's promotion to the starting line-up follows a tight call between himself and O'Mahony last week. "In the first match, it was a real toss-up between Kevin and Peter as to who played six. We gave Peter the first one, you think of where we are now. Kevin will give us real freshness into the team. That freshness is going to help us on Saturday night."

The coach gave the impression that for all the sniping and dismissiveness of much of the New Zealand media, the Irish camp have had such an intense focus on themselves that they are largely immune from the brickbats.

"We took a good look at things on Monday with the players and saw where we went wrong so the focus this week will be 99 per cent on ourselves, we need to get ourselves right and not be concentrating on the others. We know the turnovers, a few areas of the game like kick-offs, both for and against, we can improve in those two areas that will give us so much more ball, percentages of possession and territory if we can start improving them, it's a different game."

The wing selection still doesn't make sense, and as for the reason behind the scrum half selection ...

[Sin é]

- Ross in for Fitzpatrick, fair enough.

- D'Arcy in for the injured Earls- no problems there.

- McLaughlin for O'Mahony is a 50/50 that IMO should've gone with POM but I'm not too bothered by that decision.

- Keeping McFadden who was so cruelly exposed as being out of position while replacing the "not-as-bad-but-could-improve" Zebo on the left wing with a RIGHT winger is one of the most baffling decisions I've seen Kidney make in a while.

I think my patience has just about run out with him.

I think all those calls are fair enough. I suspect that Zebo was dropped because Earls is out (used to playing with each other at provincial level*) and Andrew Trimble generally plays on that side anyway when playing for Ireland, so BOD & D'Arcy combo is nothing new to him.

If Earls is fit next week, I'd expect Zebo to be reinstated with Trimble on the right wing and McFadden dropped to the bench. Good rotation of your wingers.

*Another reason for why Zebo might have been preferred to Gilroy.

But plays all season at 14......
He isn't even on his greatest form at 14 but utterly unproven at 11.

Mind you he'll have to get used to it with the return of the Bowe to Ulster

Trimble form hasn't been great in general over the last few months for Ulster, but he had a decent enough 6Ns at 11 (he even scored a few tries there ) something he hasn't done in years for Ireland.

Fergus McFadden usually plays right wing when he does play on the wing. The fact that he has just had 80 mins against Savea + video analysis afterwards might mean that its better to stick with him rather than throwing another newbie out there.

[MMC]

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Looking over the team as a whole - I do like the balance of that backrow. The front row looks strong, and this time we have a good prop on the bench (the 23 man squads can't come fast enough).

The second row is what I'd have chosen - I'm hoping that Tuohy puts himself about a bit more this time. Looks a bit short for 2nd row IMO....

I'm hoping the backline performs a lot better this time (it can't be worse!). Losing Earls is a blow but I'm hoping that BOD and D'Arcy have good games. I hope that McFadden has learned from last week and gets himself in the right positions. Trimble won't let anyone down.

I do worry that we have no "spark" in that backline though. Kearney is probably the only one I can see creating something from nothing.

Oh one other thing - I really really really hope we sort out the restarts this weekend. I've never seen a team as clueless about restarts as we were last weekend. Who's decision was it kick long to the right and centre of the ABs 22 every single time?? Not a single one was put up for Zebo to try and gather. Not one. Baffling.

[Mickado]

No Zebo= joke. McFadden shouldn't be near that side. Okay with D'Arcy, I mean Earls is out. McLaughlin being in is fair enough, POM wasn't at his best.
I think we need a combination of Murray/Reddan. There's a reason Reddan doesn't start a lot of the away HC games. Unleash Reddan at half time or 50 minutes in and see what he can do.

Boss is more physical but his pass is slightly slower. Murray is as physically imposing as Boss but his passing is WAAAAY slower.

[Thomond]

His pass isn't slow it's his service. That's correctable, so he needs to either work on at with the new Munster coaches or hopefully Stringer will give him some tips (some of the fastest service I've ever seen). Murray has the ability for it, he got into the Munster and Ireland setup for his size and quick ball.

[LeinsterFan4life]

How many more days on that kidney clock?

[Mickado]

His pass isn't slow it's his service. That's correctable, so he needs to either work on at with the new Munster coaches or hopefully Stringer will give him some tips (some of the fastest service I've ever seen). Murray has the ability for it, he got into the Munster and Ireland setup for his size and quick ball.

Sorry, you're correct. His service is slow and it can be improved. But right now, starting him is not the correct option. I don't want him thrown on the slag heap, he's potentially Irelands best, but he's not there right now.

[Thomond]

I wouldn't mind seeing Reddan start but I think a combination could work well.

[Rava]

Sin é, this is from another newspaper report on the team selection: -

Dan Tuohy and Donnacha Ryan resume their second-row partnership, with Kidney emphasising the Ulster man's proficiency at the line-out as the primary reason why Donncha O'Callaghan remains on the replacement's bench.

No mention of Tuohy being too short

[Pete330v2]

His pass isn't slow it's his service. That's correctable, so he needs to either work on at with the new Munster coaches or hopefully Stringer will give him some tips (some of the fastest service I've ever seen). Murray has the ability for it, he got into the Munster and Ireland setup for his size and quick ball.

Sorry, you're correct. His service is slow and it can be improved. But right now, starting him is not the correct option. I don't want him thrown on the slag heap, he's potentially Irelands best, but he's not there right now.

Absolutely Mick, a badly managed player placed in the wrong position/combination is as bad as utilising an average player in the right position. It has the same effect in producing a weak link against a team that profits on exactly what weak links produce, mistakes. DK also utilising a player at 14 who was cruelly exposed last week both physically and positionally. Trimble offers more experience and physicality at 14 no matter what people say about his form but can be exposed positionally on the left IMO. I mean D'arcy has played some dross in the Ireland shirt in recent times but I am hoping we can see a return to the form he shows more often when wearing blue and show us that when partnered with BOD they can still form a formidable international centre pairing. At least he's being played in his preferred position and therefore afforded every chance to do so unlike McFadden and Trimble.

[Mickado]

His pass isn't slow it's his service. That's correctable, so he needs to either work on at with the new Munster coaches or hopefully Stringer will give him some tips (some of the fastest service I've ever seen). Murray has the ability for it, he got into the Munster and Ireland setup for his size and quick ball.

Sorry, you're correct. His service is slow and it can be improved. But right now, starting him is not the correct option. I don't want him thrown on the slag heap, he's potentially Irelands best, but he's not there right now.

Absolutely Mick, a badly managed player placed in the wrong position/combination is as bad as utilising an average player in the right position. It has the same effect in producing a weak link against a team that profits on exactly what weak links produce, mistakes. DK also utilising a player at 14 who was cruelly exposed last week both physically and positionally. Trimble offers more experience and physicality at 14 no matter what people say about his form but can be exposed positionally on the left IMO. I mean D'arcy has played some dross in the Ireland shirt in recent times but I am hoping we can see a return to the form he shows more often when wearing blue and show us that when partnered with BOD they can still form a formidable international centre pairing. At least he's being played in his preferred position and therefore afforded every chance to do so unlike McFadden and Trimble.

I agree Pete, if one winger was to lose their place from last week I think it should have been McFadden. He’s getting quite a reputation for being a bad winger, when he’s really a pretty good center.

[Sin é]

Sin é, this is from another newspaper report on the team selection: -

Dan Tuohy and Donnacha Ryan resume their second-row partnership, with Kidney emphasising the Ulster man's proficiency at the line-out as the primary reason why Donncha O'Callaghan remains on the replacement's bench.

No mention of Tuohy being too short

(Ireland's lineout was adequate - Ryan took 5, Tuohy 2, O'Mahony 2. No steals! Sounds like he was searching for something good to say about him.

In the Belfast Telegraph, I presume

from the Times (above):

Kidney has thus retained Dan Tuohy, a relatively subdued performer in the first Test, on the basis that he is a better player than he showed in Eden Park,

[Rava]

Sin é, this is from another newspaper report on the team selection: -

Dan Tuohy and Donnacha Ryan resume their second-row partnership, with Kidney emphasising the Ulster man's proficiency at the line-out as the primary reason why Donncha O'Callaghan remains on the replacement's bench.

No mention of Tuohy being too short

(Ireland's lineout was adequate - Ryan took 5, Tuohy 2, O'Mahony 2. No steals! Sounds like he was searching for something good to say about him.

In the Belfast Telegraph, I presume

from the Times (above):

Kidney has thus retained Dan Tuohy, a relatively subdued performer in the first Test, on the basis that he is a better player than he showed in Eden Park,

How did you guess?

[Sin é]

His pass isn't slow it's his service. That's correctable, so he needs to either work on at with the new Munster coaches or hopefully Stringer will give him some tips (some of the fastest service I've ever seen). Murray has the ability for it, he got into the Munster and Ireland setup for his size and quick ball.

Sorry, you're correct. His service is slow and it can be improved. But right now, starting him is not the correct option. I don't want him thrown on the slag heap, he's potentially Irelands best, but he's not there right now.

Absolutely Mick, a badly managed player placed in the wrong position/combination is as bad as utilising an average player in the right position. It has the same effect in producing a weak link against a team that profits on exactly what weak links produce, mistakes. DK also utilising a player at 14 who was cruelly exposed last week both physically and positionally. Trimble offers more experience and physicality at 14 no matter what people say about his form but can be exposed positionally on the left IMO. I mean D'arcy has played some dross in the Ireland shirt in recent times but I am hoping we can see a return to the form he shows more often when wearing blue and show us that when partnered with BOD they can still form a formidable international centre pairing. At least he's being played in his preferred position and therefore afforded every chance to do so unlike McFadden and Trimble.

McFadden, when he has played on the wing for Leinster & Ireland has been played at 14 (Luke & Earls always play 11 when on the wing).
Trimble, when he plays for Ireland, nearly always plays at 11 as Tommy Bowe is usually the starting winger at 14.

[Sin é]

Sin é, this is from another newspaper report on the team selection: -

Dan Tuohy and Donnacha Ryan resume their second-row partnership, with Kidney emphasising the Ulster man's proficiency at the line-out as the primary reason why Donncha O'Callaghan remains on the replacement's bench.

No mention of Tuohy being too short

(Ireland's lineout was adequate - Ryan took 5, Tuohy 2, O'Mahony 2. No steals! Sounds like he was searching for something good to say about him.

In the Belfast Telegraph, I presume

from the Times (above):

Kidney has thus retained Dan Tuohy, a relatively subdued performer in the first Test, on the basis that he is a better player than he showed in Eden Park,

How did you guess?

They would be the only paper who would get away with putting that in writing.

By the way, I was reading Sean Fitzpatrick last week where he was saying how brilliant it was that the ABs now have 2 x 6'8" locks and what a difference that it makes to the lineout

[Mickado]

How mant world cups have they won with the 2 x 6'8'' locks?

[Pete330v2]

His pass isn't slow it's his service. That's correctable, so he needs to either work on at with the new Munster coaches or hopefully Stringer will give him some tips (some of the fastest service I've ever seen). Murray has the ability for it, he got into the Munster and Ireland setup for his size and quick ball.

Sorry, you're correct. His service is slow and it can be improved. But right now, starting him is not the correct option. I don't want him thrown on the slag heap, he's potentially Irelands best, but he's not there right now.

Absolutely Mick, a badly managed player placed in the wrong position/combination is as bad as utilising an average player in the right position. It has the same effect in producing a weak link against a team that profits on exactly what weak links produce, mistakes. DK also utilising a player at 14 who was cruelly exposed last week both physically and positionally. Trimble offers more experience and physicality at 14 no matter what people say about his form but can be exposed positionally on the left IMO. I mean D'arcy has played some dross in the Ireland shirt in recent times but I am hoping we can see a return to the form he shows more often when wearing blue and show us that when partnered with BOD they can still form a formidable international centre pairing. At least he's being played in his preferred position and therefore afforded every chance to do so unlike McFadden and Trimble.

McFadden, when he has played on the wing for Leinster & Ireland has been played at 14 (Luke & Earls always play 11 when on the wing).
Trimble, when he plays for Ireland, nearly always plays at 11 as Tommy Bowe is usually the starting winger at 14.

Thanks for stengthening my point .
Trimble's best position, the position he plays more RUGBY at and has excelled there for most of this season is 14. Rightly so shifted to 11 for Bowe who is by far our best player at 14 and has all the attributes that someone like McFadden misses on the right wing. However, to shift Trimble to 11 because McFadden has had a few games there for Leinster, doesn't specialise there and most certainly does not excel or thrive there is simply an enigma wrapped in confusion. I had always said Kidney was never the man for the Ireland post (on the old 606) and I am sad that I've been proven right.

P.S. he did not bring us the GS so don't use that old chestnut

[LeinsterFan4life]

Is there any chance of kidney being sacked before the next 6n?

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Who is covering 15 do we think?

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