Rennie vs Warburton

First topic message reminder :

Quite simply, who is better out of Rennie and Warburton?

ChequeredJersey wrote:It depends who starts, maybe, although someone like Warbs or Tobshaw might get extra points for leadership.

Any of the following could be a captaincy candidate if they are deemed first choice-

Hartley (I know people won't like that though), Ford (not my choice), Brown, Warburton, Ryan Jones, POC, BOD, Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Blair

CJ, on the basis that the captain must be guaranteed a starting test spot, that quite possibly eliminates a number of the candidates listed above. Perhaps it might be easier to go thru the whole if-fit-&-on-the-best-form-they've-ever-shown routine? Based on that how many guaranteed starters are there?
Props - Adam Jones
Hooker - none guaranteed imo
Lock - POC (but will he ever get back to the height of his powers?), Gray
Backrow - Ferris
Halfbacks - Sexton
Centres - BOD (see POC)
Back three - Kearney

Aside from POC and BOD over whom I think there have to be large question marks (no matter that they have been world class players), anyone on that list, or any additions to that list?

Visser - I think the folk that rate him have seen him play. those that have not seen him don't

Yes he has it to prove yet but he has the time to do it and I am sure he will

I saw him play against North and Visser outplayed him convincingly. Visser really is that good. North may become a better player but at the moment he is not.

I only think Jones has a guaranteed test spot though

I'll say it again AsLongAsBut100ofUs, I'd love to see Gray captain the side. At Lions level you will have so many on the field leaders his inexperience in the role could be counterbalanced. For the same of argument if he had POC, BOD, Best & Jones alongside him certainly wouldn't lack in experience and leadership. From an Irish perspective POC was possibly playing as well as ever. When he had that serious illness and injury last season he lost some weight and has been all the better for it. BOD, I don't know. Everytime we start to question him he proves us wrong. I know he will desperately want to win a Lions series at the fourth attempt. I know you have listed Ferris in the back row there and even as an Ulster fan there is no one guaranteed a spot even in the touring party in that position.

And maybe Gray.

TJ wrote:Visser - I think the folk that rate him have seen him play. those that have not seen him don't

Yes he has it to prove yet but he has the time to do it and I am sure he will

I saw him play against North and Visser outplayed him convincingly. Visser really is that good. North may become a better player but at the moment he is not.

I've seen Visser play a lot as I am an Ulster fan. I have also seen Andrew Trimble, who is pretty limited, outplay him this season. I am not saying he cannot make the squad as that is a ridiculous claim to make, but he has a long way to go.

And I'll be shocked if JD2 doesn't play 12 or 13 but coaches have made heinously stupid decisions before and they'll make them again

Ive not seen Visser play much, but i know that club form doesn't equate to international form and international not to Lions form so I'll reserve my judgement until the AIs

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I'll say it again AsLongAsBut100ofUs, I'd love to see Gray captain the side. At Lions level you will have so many on the field leaders his inexperience in the role could be counterbalanced. For the same of argument if he had POC, BOD, Best & Jones alongside him certainly wouldn't lack in experience and leadership. From an Irish perspective POC was possibly playing as well as ever. When he had that serious illness and injury last season he lost some weight and has been all the better for it. BOD, I don't know. Everytime we start to question him he proves us wrong. I know he will desperately want to win a Lions series at the fourth attempt. I know you have listed Ferris in the back row there and even as an Ulster fan there is no one guaranteed a spot even in the touring party in that position.

H&H, I hear you, Ferris was v much my personal view. So maybe it's Gray, surrounded by experience - I suspect we could do a lot worse?

There are plenty of good candidates whereas on the last tour there was really only ever one. That is encouraging. Gray with his youth and the sheer style of his play I think would be a superb captain. POC and BOD could obviously do it. Adam Jones? I don't think so. He seems more like the silent, keep his head down and get on with it type of player. Obviously Warburton is a contender, but is he an inspirational leader of merely a captain of a side who are winning at present? See Ryan Jones c.2009. Rory Best is Ulster captain and has captain Ireland in the Six Nations but I don't see him as Lions captain material. The Lions is different to international captaincy, and I think in this case intangible qualities are possibly even more important.

This Lions side really could be special if Gatland manages it correctly and doesn't let his judgement get clouded by favouring the players he knows best. Not to mention any previous Woodwards, er people, sorry... I meant 'people'.

The captain would have to have his spot clearly nailed down, of course, and the level of competition makes this very difficult indeed. Who could honestly say that they have a spot nailed down given the talent that's coming through and the changing form of the previous incumbents?

I don't think that there's a single one. Even Gray and O'Connell are not guaranteed when you have Ian Evans, Jim Hamilton, Courtney Lawes, etc. Not even at scrum half where I would have said that Youngs' was nailed on a year ago. I would also have said that the likes of both Ferris and O'Brien were certain to start a year ago. Not the case now with the rise of Croft, Lydiate, Denton and Brown on the blind and Tiptronic, Rennie and Warbuton on the loose.

A year is a very long time in rugby terms.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ive not seen Visser play much, but i know that club form doesn't equate to international form and international not to Lions form so I'll reserve my judgement until the AIs

Eh?

Anyway, Visser played for the Baa Baas against England - 2 tries. Played his first international for Scotland last week - 2 tries.

Visser is class - but I doubt he'll make the Lions because the coaches take preference over their favourites. Which suits me - I'd rather he concentrated on Edinburgh and Scotland.

The first isn't an international, the latter is an indicator he has it but it was against Fiji and not even Fiji's best team. Christian Wade scored a hattrick against The BaBas. Now his defence has been exposed in SA. Ashton even now has a great try-scoring ratio but is out of favour. One match good international form doth not make. I'll reserve judgement.
And good internationals don't always make good Lions. How they blend with the other nation's players is vital. Not saying that Visser will be bad at that at all or that he won't be an international superstar and Lions man of tour. But I don't see how anyone can seriously say that he will start for the Lions at this point. Fiji, frankly, are not the hardest defence in the world to score against and the most recent time England (in better form than when they played Visser) played the BaBas, Tindall scored against us. It's in no way a real cap. He's got every chance but he's up against North, Cuthbert, Halfpenny, Ashton, Bowe at the very least, and other stars will rise.

I don't want to be controversial but some people might suggest that tries against a third strength English side in a non-international, and against what equated to a reserve Fijian side is not quite as strong as playing in the Six Nations.

Especially as the BaBas score tries. They don't even play to win, they play tons score pretty tries, that's their point.

ChequeredJersey wrote:The first isn't an international, the latter is an indicator he has it but it was against Fiji and not even Fiji's best team.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I don't want to be controversial but some people might suggest that tries against a third strength English side in a non-international, and against what equated to a reserve Fijian side is not quite as strong as playing in the Six Nations.

Mate I'll be happy to be proven wrong come tour time, but chucking in a facepalm smiley isn't a very convincing rebuttal

Mate I'll be happy to be proven wrong come tour time, but chucking in a facepalm smiley isn't a very convincing rebuttal

You can say that again.

George Carlin wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I don't want to be controversial but some people might suggest that tries against a third strength English side in a non-international, and against what equated to a reserve Fijian side is not quite as strong as playing in the Six Nations.

My statement was a) sarcastic, and b) Visser has one cap against an under strength Fijian team. He got two tries, great. Hardly form for the Lions now is it, two games against a third strength England and a weak, under strength Fiji. If he plays in the Six Nations and plays well and even bags a few tries then he will be worth a shout. Until then you just look delusional.

Richie Gray is a fantastic player and I have no doubt will be a Scotland Captain one day. But he hasn't even captained his club yet, let alone Scotland. Asking him to captain the Lions I think would be a big ask for the 22 year old.

I think whoever gets the Hooker role, Ford or Best being the front runners will stand the best chance of captaining the squad.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:My statement was a) sarcastic, and b) Visser has one cap against an under strength Fijian team. He got two tries, great. Hardly form for the Lions now is it, two games against a third strength England and a weak, under strength Fiji. If he plays in the Six Nations and plays well and even bags a few tries then he will be worth a shout. Until then you just look delusional.

That is, of course, a fair point. Viewed in isolation, a storming display for the Baabaas, and a useful performance against Fiji are not indicative of Lions starting-XV form.

However, as any Edinburgh and Scotland supporter would tell you (and probably has) is that these facts, on top of Visser's ridiculous try-count for Edinburgh in the Rabo and Heino, and his numerous awards, should at least make him worthy of consideration.

I wouldn't start him at the moment (despite some of my more bombastic statements...) in a Lions test, but what's most striking is that Visser has yet to reach a level of rugby in which he isn't comfortable. I'm not saying Visser will definitely start or even tour, simply that I haven't seen anything yet that would indicate that his rise in class will reach a peak any time soon.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Mate I'll be happy to be proven wrong come tour time, but chucking in a facepalm smiley isn't a very convincing rebuttal

IanBru wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:My statement was a) sarcastic, and b) Visser has one cap against an under strength Fijian team. He got two tries, great. Hardly form for the Lions now is it, two games against a third strength England and a weak, under strength Fiji. If he plays in the Six Nations and plays well and even bags a few tries then he will be worth a shout. Until then you just look delusional.

That is, of course, a fair point. Viewed in isolation, a storming display for the Baabaas, and a useful performance against Fiji are not indicative of Lions starting-XV form.

However, as any Edinburgh and Scotland supporter would tell you (and probably has) is that these facts, on top of Visser's ridiculous try-count for Edinburgh in the Rabo and Heino, and his numerous awards, should at least make him worthy of consideration.

I wouldn't start him at the moment (despite some of my more bombastic statements...) in a Lions test, but what's most striking is that Visser has yet to reach a level of rugby in which he isn't comfortable. I'm not saying Visser will definitely start or even tour, simply that I haven't seen anything yet that would indicate that his rise in class will reach a peak any time soon.

Absolutely agree. Four tries in the Heineken Cup this season isn't mind blowing but a pretty decent return. But he hasn't had even a semi-decent test against international opposition. The autumn internationals will tell a tale as will the Six Nations. But Irish fans know very well that Magners form means very little. Fionn Carr, Magners winger in a pretty poor Connaught side was scoring a lot of tries, made the move to Leinster and was found out as his positional play and defence was weak. I have seen Visser in matches when his defence left a lot to be desired (though most times he looks like a good defender). If he has weakness matches at international level will soon find them out.

George Carlin wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Mate I'll be happy to be proven wrong come tour time, but chucking in a facepalm smiley isn't a very convincing rebuttal

Riskysports wrote:I think Warburton is a fine player, but is it me or has his form dipped since he became Captain?

I'd say his form has dipped since he got injured. It makes Rob Howley's selection of him over Justin Tipuric all the more stupid.

I've been a fan of Ross Rennie's since he first appeared for Edinburgh and it's so good to see him back to his best after the injuries he's had.

George Carlin wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Mate I'll be happy to be proven wrong come tour time, but chucking in a facepalm smiley isn't a very convincing rebuttal

[quote]

Touché

I think Warburton has grown into the capatincy and is a top rate captain BUT his form isn't the best at the moment.

I would start with Tipuric this weekend and give Ryan or AWJ the skippers armband.

TJ wrote:Visser - I think the folk that rate him have seen him play. those that have not seen him don't

Yes he has it to prove yet but he has the time to do it and I am sure he will

I saw him play against North and Visser outplayed him convincingly. Visser really is that good. North may become a better player but at the moment he is not.

When was this out of curiosity? North and Visser have only played against each other once or twice by my count and Visser has never scored up against North.

When it comes to Warbs vs Rennie, I haven't seen enough of the latter to be able to judge fairly. The thing is when it comes to cockily comparing players each set of fans know far more about their player than they know about his counterpart and are almost inevitably going to persist that their product is better. It's naturally part of being a supporter. Having said that Rennie has undeniably been in better form as Warbs has missed so much of the season.

I also think people are reading too much into Sam's lapse. I see overblown claims that his form has declined since he became captain when this isn't at all true. He pretty much made his name as a 7 and a skipper in the WC. He's played two games in just under three months and a few are already concluding that he's overrated. For all we know he could have a stormer in the final Aus test, we'll have to see.

Sams decline is mirrored against his own high standards. Even in his current form is still a very good player and we are lucky to have Tipuiric challenging him.

We is always get these arguments about players from different Countries and the old my dads bigger than your dad debates etc etc.

Knowsit17 wrote:

TJ wrote:

Yes he has it to prove yet but he has the time to do it and I am sure he will

I saw him play against North and Visser outplayed him convincingly. Visser really is that good. North may become a better player but at the moment he is not.

When was this out of curiosity? North and Visser have only played against each other once or twice by my count and Visser has never scored up against North.

.

Now you are asking - you want an old man to remember details from months ago? - one game this season I watched - I guess rabo not HC but not certain. I remember looking forward to the match up and after the game being distinctly underwhelmed by North who didn't look up for it at all in contrast to Visser who did his usual thing of appearing all over the field and running great lines and making yards.

But as above - he really has yet to prove it but he was voted player of the league 3 years in a row IIRC in the Rabo - and thats against some great other players He has the AI and 6N to prove his class. I have no issue with him pl;aying for Scotland or Lions - his is no false patriotism. He does not claim to be a Scot

Robshaw or Rennie but not the pyromaniac's dream...Sam Blamethrower

Triangulation wrote:Robshaw or Rennie but not the pyromaniac's dream...Sam Blamethrower

Lame

Warbs has been out for months and was continuously injured throughout the 6N, although I thought he was superb against Ireland in the 1st half and England. I think its only a matter of time when he get's some game time that he will return to the form during the WC.

He's clearly not match fit but he is captain so he's nailed down to start. Rennie has also been superb so far for Scotland but I haven't seen much of him tbf.

martyr,

I don't think that just because he is captain should guarantee his start, for me form should be the first factor taken into account.

I don't think it would harm him or the team if Tipuric started on Saturday.

martyr_94 wrote:He's clearly not match fit but he is captain so he's nailed down to start.

That must have been Rob Howley's thinking too, and it's so wrong-headed. Pick your best XV, then pick your captain from that XV! We knew our openside would be up against one of the best in the business, so what did we do? We selected a player who's barely played for months over a player who's been on fire the last few months. Superb management.