Rennie vs Warburton

by 123456789 Sun 17 Jun 2012, 12:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

Quite simply, who is better out of Rennie and Warburton?

by TycroesOsprey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:42 am

sugarNspikes wrote:Rubbish!

How is that rubbish, Jenkins has proven his ability in the scrum as a loosehead for the lions and wales, he beat Cole up in the scrum during the game in twickenham.

examples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Bc2OTe_xo 11.49 mins first scrum, better example at 17.43 do you need more I have a whole memory stick full.

by sugarNspikes Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:47 am

Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

Anyway, back on topic...

I'd currently have Rennie over Warburton but it may well be different in year's time. Plenty of time for things to change.

by TycroesOsprey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:50 am

sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.

by sugarNspikes Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:57 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.

If you're determined to ruin a thread (again Rolling Eyes

) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

by TycroesOsprey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:07 am

sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out thumbsup

As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.

by sugarNspikes Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:13 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.

You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

by TycroesOsprey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:20 am

sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.
You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

No actually I posted a lions squad based on the best players in the British Isles not on national partisan feeling. As for calling the mods really? given your reputation and posting history your calling the mods? thats as big a joke as your whining about a squad with mimimal english representation. AAwwww is baby hurt that his opinions been shown to be as you put it "rubbish"?

by sugarNspikes Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:30 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.
You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

No actually I posted a lions squad based on the best players in the British Isles not on national partisan feeling. As for calling the mods really? given your reputation and posting history your calling the mods? thats as big a joke as your whining about a squad with mimimal english representation. AAwwww is baby hurt that his opinions been shown to be as you put it "rubbish"?

If you want to post a Lions side or have a pop at England there are plenty of threads to post in. Take your pick. This is about Warburton and Rennie. If you want to discuss Wales v England we can do it elsewhere. Very Happy

by TycroesOsprey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:33 am

sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.
You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

No actually I posted a lions squad based on the best players in the British Isles not on national partisan feeling. As for calling the mods really? given your reputation and posting history your calling the mods? thats as big a joke as your whining about a squad with mimimal english representation. AAwwww is baby hurt that his opinions been shown to be as you put it "rubbish"?
If you want to post a Lions side or have a pop at England there are plenty of threads to post in. Take your pick. This is about Warburton and Rennie. If you want to discuss Wales v England we can do it elsewhere.

Baby goes waaaaaaah again.

by sugarNspikes Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:34 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.
You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

No actually I posted a lions squad based on the best players in the British Isles not on national partisan feeling. As for calling the mods really? given your reputation and posting history your calling the mods? thats as big a joke as your whining about a squad with mimimal english representation. AAwwww is baby hurt that his opinions been shown to be as you put it "rubbish"?
If you want to post a Lions side or have a pop at England there are plenty of threads to post in. Take your pick. This is about Warburton and Rennie. If you want to discuss Wales v England we can do it elsewhere.

Baby goes waaaaaaah again.

Really?

by TycroesOsprey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:38 am

TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.
You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

No actually I posted a lions squad based on the best players in the British Isles not on national partisan feeling. As for calling the mods really? given your reputation and posting history your calling the mods? thats as big a joke as your whining about a squad with mimimal english representation. AAwwww is baby hurt that his opinions been shown to be as you put it "rubbish"?
If you want to post a Lions side or have a pop at England there are plenty of threads to post in. Take your pick. This is about Warburton and Rennie. If you want to discuss Wales v England we can do it elsewhere.

Baby goes waaaaaaah again.

Yes. whats amusing me is that behind the your trolling there isnt actually that much knowledge of the game. It is like listening to a baby whine and scream for attention throughout multiple threads. Whats even more telling is when your lack of knowledge is shown up you whine and cry out for the mods. Never heard the story of the little boy who cried wolf, little boy?

I havent had a pop at England and I was discussing the makeup of the lions which this thread is relevant to. thumbsup

by sad_gimp Mon 18 Jun 2012, 3:16 am

Sorry but as an England fan I couldn't make a case for an English player to take a Lions starting IV shirt at the moment. Perhaps Robshaw at 6 despite a below par performance at the weekend. The quality of players across the home nations is very good at the moment. Just a shame none of us can pull out a performance individually!

by flyhalffactory Mon 18 Jun 2012, 5:07 am

wales606 wrote:Tipuric

But, based on Warbs form at the moment, Rennie.

Im sure he will come back though, we'll have to wait and see how Rennie does in his second season as a big name international.

WHAT??
He has been just a superb player since 2007

Rennie has had horrendous injuries, if you saw this guy in 2007 you would have realised how much talent he really has, and post 2008 (when he debuted for Scotland) Warburton would have not come into the equation when talking about the nailed on Lions spot if Rennie had been injury free.

by **George Carlin** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 6:58 am

Warbuton and Rennie would both make the Lions squad as there's no real way you couldn't travel without 2 dedicated opensides.

Worth reiterating a couple of earlier posts:

1. Warbuton is still clearly not back to form after what was quite a substantive injury. Not really fair to judge him when he's less than 100%.

2. Rennie has had worse luck with injuries than most loosies I've seen. Clearly a lot of people don't know this from some of the strange comments about him on this thread so I am happy to illuminate. After being voted Magners Players' Player of the Year in 2007/08, he wrecked his knee which knocked him off his stride for two full seasons and meant that he couldn't tour South Africa in 2008 which is when he was supposed to make his emergence on the world stage.

3. I'm always slightly dubious about statistics but the formal stat from the Scotland v Australia game is that Rennie made 31 tackles. That is absolutely insane cardio and given the amount he carries and the number of turnovers he gets (watch him run all over Dusautoir in the Heineken Cup quarters) it would be ludicrous not to have him as a Lions option.

4. I played openside myself so I always watch them carefully and I would rather have Rennie over Warbs when both of them are fit. But have no doubt, it will be 6 Nations form next year that dictates who will travel with the Lions.

by **George Carlin** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 7:00 am

mid_gen wrote:Sorry but as an England fan I couldn't make a case for an English player to take a Lions starting IV shirt at the moment. Perhaps Robshaw at 6 despite a below par performance at the weekend. The quality of players across the home nations is very good at the moment. Just a shame none of us can pull out a performance individually!

Respect to you mid_gen

by sad_gimp Mon 18 Jun 2012, 7:28 am

Plenty of good players, just not the best in the home nations.

Cole
Corbisiero
Robshaw
Youngs
Care
Tuilagi
Foden
Brown
Ashton

All in with a decent shout for a bench spot. Robshaw only one I'd consider starting, but even then....how many top class back rowers will have to miss out?

I don't think it's all doom and gloom, it's just that a lot of home nations players have stepped up their game on the international scene this season.

by ultra Mon 18 Jun 2012, 8:39 am

I'm trying really hard not to get sucked in here but this nonsense that Cole can't scrumage is beginning to irritate me a tad! It's all about combinations, (or combinators if you prefer), and when cole has corbs on the loose the english scrummage is very good. Wales actually struggled once or twice at the weekend against those scary ozzys (granted they were being shrewd with an early shove)..

Anyway, back on topic.....Rennie is class Smile

by RubyGuby Mon 18 Jun 2012, 9:41 am

Rennie V's Alka Seltzer

Alka every time, good at the break down, Soluble with a good temperament thumbsup

by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 18 Jun 2012, 10:15 am

At this precise moment Rennie IMO should start for the Lions, but it's a long time untill the squad is picked. A lot of rugby to be played.

by wales606 Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:06 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
wales606 wrote:Tipuric

But, based on Warbs form at the moment, Rennie.

Im sure he will come back though, we'll have to wait and see how Rennie does in his second season as a big name international.

WHAT??
He has been just a superb player since 2007

Rennie has had horrendous injuries, if you saw this guy in 2007 you would have realised how much talent he really has, and post 2008 (when he debuted for Scotland) Warburton would have not come into the equation when talking about the nailed on Lions spot if Rennie had been injury free.

Hence why I said "big name international" - He has preformed very well recently, so now he will be targeted by opposition coaches.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:00 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
sugarNspikes wrote:Jenkins is a good loosehead, but not brilliant at scrummaging.

.

Yet a better scrummager than Cole.
If you're determined to ruin a thread (again ) you've got a good prop who is better as a flanker and a scrum half who wants to be a flanker. Maybe that's why you can't beat Aus home or away,

Anyway, back on topic....

Its ok we beat England home and away the last twice out As for ruining threads, the only reason you want to suddenly change the topic back to an op you tried to derail is because yet again your musings are exposed as fallacious. Much like Coles ability at scrummaging.
You posted a silly "Lions" squad

Mods, please get this back on topic or lock this thread before more insults are exchanged.

No actually I posted a lions squad based on the best players in the British Isles not on national partisan feeling. As for calling the mods really? given your reputation and posting history your calling the mods? thats as big a joke as your whining about a squad with mimimal english representation. AAwwww is baby hurt that his opinions been shown to be as you put it "rubbish"?
If you want to post a Lions side or have a pop at England there are plenty of threads to post in. Take your pick. This is about Warburton and Rennie. If you want to discuss Wales v England we can do it elsewhere.

Baby goes waaaaaaah again.

Yes. whats amusing me is that behind the your trolling there isnt actually that much knowledge of the game. It is like listening to a baby whine and scream for attention throughout multiple threads. Whats even more telling is when your lack of knowledge is shown up you whine and cry out for the mods. Never heard the story of the little boy who cried wolf, little boy?

I havent had a pop at England and I was discussing the makeup of the lions which this thread is relevant to.

Can the pair of you lay off the bickering

by flankertye Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:04 pm

REALLY? Cole 4th choice tighthead. Utter pish. He's second only to Jones in terms of scrummaging ability and he offers far more around the loose.

by R!skysports Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:23 pm

Also got to remember that Rennie is not playing with a proper number 8, so is almost doing 2 jobs - when we have Denton back, I expect him to get even better

I think Warburton is a fine player, but is it me or has his form dipped since he became Captain?

by Guest Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:32 pm

I would choose Warburton over Rennie if he is on form, which he clearly hasnt been since the 6nations and injury troubles.

by R!skysports Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:34 pm

IronMike wrote:I would choose Warburton over Rennie if he is on form, which he clearly hasnt been since the 6nations and injury troubles.

I would also say Rennie out played him over the 6 nations too though

by Guest Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:38 pm

Riskysports wrote:
IronMike wrote:I would choose Warburton over Rennie if he is on form, which he clearly hasnt been since the 6nations and injury troubles.

I would also say Rennie out played him over the 6 nations too though

Injuries are preventing Warburton from becoming a great great player, we've seen glimpses as to what he is capable of, but persistent injury problems are preventing him gaining that momentum. The fact he can whip out man of the match performances considering how little he has actually played over the past 2 seasons says something.

by Gordy Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:49 pm

Rennie for me. Warburton has been playing himself out of a Lions shirt with his performances and captaincy of late. I have not been impressed. He could be the Jamie Heaslip of Welsh rugby in a years time.

by Majestic83 Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:19 pm

Definitely Ross Rennie, Head and shoulders best 7 in the northern hemisphere at the moment. Been majorly unlucky with his knee injury otherwise he would have been a household name long before now.
Ticks all the boxes for a 7 and is going to get better and better. Still at the moment he can't train as much as other players due to his knee but is adding to his training workload all the time so will be a good while yet before you see just how good he actually is.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:48 pm

Warbs because I expect him to captain. Rennie has been better this year though.

On the England thing, I think Care or Youngs have a great shot at 9.

by TJ1 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 8:57 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Warbs because I expect him to captain. Rennie has been better this year though.

On the England thing, I think Care or Youngs have a great shot at 9.

Halfbacks are going to be tricky

They do but there are a goodly number of options depending on the style they want to play. I don't think Care is a team player / man to take on a lions tour and to some extent choice of 9 must depend on who is going to play 10 - and that really is difficult with no stand out option at all

by ChequeredJersey Tue 19 Jun 2012, 8:59 am

On recent evidence that's fair enough, though I think he is a better bloke than his idiotic transgressions have indicated

by doctornickolas Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:16 am

At the moment I would expect Warburton, Rennie and Tipuric to be in the mix for the tour as open side choices.

Won't pick a starter as there is a long time to go and I haven't seen much of the Scottish games.

Cole will be on the tour along with Adam at 3. I think Cole is the best of England's front rowers. I don't rate Hartley much and it seems there is a fight on at 1 between Marler and Corbisiero but they also have to compete with Jenkins, Healy etc.

The squad for Australia will depend very much on how we propose to take Australia on. By that I mean are we going to beat them up up front or are we going to play them at their own game.

At the weekend Wales had the upper hand at the scrum and had started using it but the ref seemed to then put a stop to that advantage with a poor performance in that area. So we can't just rely on scrummaging them off the park.

I regard Adam Jones as our best tighthead but Cole may come in to the equation because he is a more a than adequate scrummager but is probably better around the park.

Do you pick a big scrummaging front 5 but maybe pick 2 natural opensides at 6 and 7 to get to the breakdowns and effect turnovers better?

It will be an interesting selection process and there will be a lot of disappointed players.

by TJ1 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:26 am

Waht I find interesting is the diference in the number of players in different positions who could go on alions tour.

Back rows there are 2 or 3 players in each position who would not weaken the team

Standoffs we are scratching around for one good enough

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:32 am

I think the fact that Sean O'Brien has now outplayed Richie McCaw two weeks in a row might put a spanner in the works regarding who plays 7. A year out though to start picking teams is always lunacy. I remember before the last tour a certain Ryan Jones was guaranteed to not only be in the side but would also captain it if Welsh fans were to be believed. How did that turn out? I think Gatland will have major problems from a PR and fan point of view if Wales don't win on Saturday. How on earth would he be able to pick many of his own players for the Lions against Australia when some of them have been so comprehensively out thought and out played. Hasn't Pocock played four games in ten days or something like that before the second test? The Australian back row schooled the Welsh in the first two tests. I shudder to think how good allayer he could be by the time of the next world cup.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:40 am

Sexton's going to be starting FH, IMO. No offence to Reddan or Murray or Boss but the Lions will have better options at 9 than Ireland or Leinster with Youngs, Care, Phillips, Peel, Blair, Laidlaw at the very least good options. But yeah, the back row is ridiculous. Each nation can put forward an entire starting backrow of players that offer something different as well as at least 1-2 others currently injured or close to selection. Without any "prospects". The rugby on show should be great

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 19 Jun 2012, 9:56 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I think the fact that Sean O'Brien has now outplayed Richie McCaw two weeks in a row might put a spanner in the works regarding who plays 7. A year out though to start picking teams is always lunacy. I remember before the last tour a certain Ryan Jones was guaranteed to not only be in the side but would also captain it if Welsh fans were to be believed. How did that turn out? I think Gatland will have major problems from a PR and fan point of view if Wales don't win on Saturday. How on earth would he be able to pick many of his own players for the Lions against Australia when some of them have been so comprehensively out thought and out played. Hasn't Pocock played four games in ten days or something like that before the second test? The Australian back row schooled the Welsh in the first two tests. I shudder to think how good allayer he could be by the time of the next world cup.

Sean O'Brien's versatility means he's virtually (assuming he's not injured) guaranteed a spot in the 22 (or will it be 23 by then?). It certainly wouldn't surprise me if he starts.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:15 am

With a whole season to go before the tour realistically in contention for back row positions are Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Lydiate, Warburton, Falateau, Tipuric, Robshaw, Croft, Morgan, Tom Wood, Barclay, Rennie, Strokosch, Denton. Then you have players just coming into sides now who have a whole season to grow and improve, like Kevin McLaughlin and Peter O'Mahony from Ireland who would have an excellent chance if they put in performances like they did against the All Blacks. I'm sure supporters from England, Scotland and Wales could put forward players from their own countries in similar positions. It's lunacy to start picking now with such strength in depth. One thing is for sure, some very good players will miss out.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:28 am

You missed Ryan Jones and Kelly Brown

by dragonbreath Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:34 am

I would expect Rennie, Strokosh and Denton to be picked for the lions ahead of Morgan, Robshaw and wood or Waldrom. Gatland is a shrewd cookie he will pick the best players to win the series. Whilst Rennie is clearly in better form at the moment Warbs when he gets back to his best is better imo. With the scots likely to provide a second row and a hooker as well then I think you may be suprissed. Ford, Gray, Denton, should all be nailed on for a lions place. Throw Visser and Rennie into the mix and the scots could make up a thord of the team.

1. Jenkins,
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. POC
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Denton
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Bod
14. Cuthbert
15. Kearney

16. Healey
17. Smiler
18. Evans
19. Rennie
20. Youngs
21. Farrell
22. Halfpenny[/quote]

Current Form

Corbs
Best
Adam Jones
Alan Wyn
Gray
Lydiate
Rennie
Heaslip
Young
Sexton
North
BOD
JD
Visser
Halfpenny (extra points)

Visser may seem controversial but in a good side he is a potent weapon. Not British and I am not a fan of soldiers of fortune representing the Lions but if as has been shown this is not a consideration for selectors then I would pick him.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:37 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:You missed Ryan Jones and Kelly Brown

Indeed I did (by mistake I might add). It only goes to strengthen my point about the depth in the back row!

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:48 am

dragonbreath wrote:
I would expect Rennie, Strokosh and Denton to be picked for the lions ahead of Morgan, Robshaw and wood or Waldrom. Gatland is a shrewd cookie he will pick the best players to win the series. Whilst Rennie is clearly in better form at the moment Warbs when he gets back to his best is better imo. With the scots likely to provide a second row and a hooker as well then I think you may be suprissed. Ford, Gray, Denton, should all be nailed on for a lions place. Throw Visser and Rennie into the mix and the scots could make up a thord of the team.

1. Jenkins,
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. POC
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Denton
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Bod
14. Cuthbert
15. Kearney

16. Healey
17. Smiler
18. Evans
19. Rennie
20. Youngs
21. Farrell
22. Halfpenny

Current Form

Corbs
Best
Adam Jones
Alan Wyn
Gray
Lydiate
Rennie
Heaslip
Young
Sexton
North
BOD
JD
Visser
Halfpenny (extra points)

Visser may seem controversial but in a good side he is a potent weapon. Not British and I am not a fan of soldiers of fortune representing the Lions but if as has been shown this is not a consideration for selectors then I would pick him.

I don't get the Visser love in from fans. He has no track record at international level, and two tries against a Fijian reserve side doesn't make him a star. He has a very good record at Rabo level, but I can throw another name of someone else who likewise had a good record before his move to Leinster- Fionn Carr. He has been horribly exposed playing at a higher level, With the strength of players on the wings I don't see Visser getting in the squad. He has Cuthbert, North and Bowe in front of him, and possibly Halfpenny as well as he is a genuine contender for a winger spot if Kearney started at fullback. I think there are more likely to be 'bolter' in other positions. That said, if he plays well in the Six Nations he'd have a good shout.

The Australians have taught Lydiate and Warburton a lesson in the two tests so far. At the moment I think Lydiate might not even make the side and will really need to step it up against Australia. The Australian media have been harsh about him (too harsh perhaps), but are right in one regard- he is no better a player than Joe Worsley. He is a tackling machine for sure, but he does very little else. His ball carrying is poor and is work in rucks and mauls leaves a lot to be desired. The Australians showed that if you offload in the tackle against him he is seriously limited. Ryan Jones for me is Wales's best 6.

Also, there is no way that Ford would make the team over Rory Best over the previous years form, and Best against the All Blacks has been simply superb. It isn't even a contest. To have Rees and Ford ahead of him is astonishing.

by Hound_of_Harrow Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:57 am

Rennie looks a more natural 7 than Warburton to me, but both are very good on their day. Injury seems to go hand in hand with this position (Tom Rees being one example) because of the battering the players take. Let's see who is left standing at the end of next season.

Plus I don't think Warburton will/should captain next years tour. With a coaching squad likely to be largely from the Welsh set up, Gatland and the tour management should appoint a non-Welsh captain to help bind the squad.

To my mind only one guy has the stature and respect of most. Paul O'Connell (again).

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:04 am

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Rennie looks a more natural 7 than Warburton to me, but both are very good on their day. Injury seems to go hand in hand with this position (Tom Rees being one example) because of the battering the players take. Let's see who is left standing at the end of next season.

Plus I don't think Warburton will/should captain next years tour. With a coaching squad likely to be largely from the Welsh set up, Gatland and the tour management should appoint a non-Welsh captain to help bind the squad.

To my mind only one guy has the stature and respect of most. Paul O'Connell (again).

I largely agree. If Warburton is the man to lead the side then grand. But the question has to be would Warburton be the captain because he is an inspirational leader, or merely because he is a the captain of a (formerly) winning side? But to say that because Gatland is coach Warbuston shouldn't be captain is plain wrong. The best candidate should get the job. BOD and POC would be possible candidates, but in truth I would like to see someone else lead the Lions. I would like to see someone who isn't necessarily captain of his country, but someone who leads by example on the pitch and shoe example would inspire his players. Thinking outside the box I would like to see Richie Gray as tour captain. He doesn't play like Johnston but I think he could be in that mould of inspirational leader on the pitch.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:04 am

I don't even mind the Lydiate hype what annoys me is when some posters were bigging up Lydiate whilst saying Robshaw, whO does the same thing (but better according to the 6N stats) whilst being a highly underrated linkman and has put in some great breakdown dominations against top sides like Leicester, Saracens and SA is apparently too limited according to the same posters

by dragonbreath Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:05 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
I would expect Rennie, Strokosh and Denton to be picked for the lions ahead of Morgan, Robshaw and wood or Waldrom. Gatland is a shrewd cookie he will pick the best players to win the series. Whilst Rennie is clearly in better form at the moment Warbs when he gets back to his best is better imo. With the scots likely to provide a second row and a hooker as well then I think you may be suprissed. Ford, Gray, Denton, should all be nailed on for a lions place. Throw Visser and Rennie into the mix and the scots could make up a thord of the team.

1. Jenkins,
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. POC
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Warburton
8. Denton
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Bod
14. Cuthbert
15. Kearney

16. Healey
17. Smiler
18. Evans
19. Rennie
20. Youngs
21. Farrell
22. Halfpenny

Current Form

Corbs
Best
Adam Jones
Alan Wyn
Gray
Lydiate
Rennie
Heaslip
Young
Sexton
North
BOD
JD
Visser
Halfpenny (extra points)

Visser may seem controversial but in a good side he is a potent weapon. Not British and I am not a fan of soldiers of fortune representing the Lions but if as has been shown this is not a consideration for selectors then I would pick him.

I don't get the Visser love in from fans. He has no track record at international level, and two tries against a Fijian reserve side doesn't make him a star. He has a very good record at Rabo level, but I can throw another name of someone else who likewise had a good record before his move to Leinster- Fionn Carr. He has been horribly exposed playing at a higher level, With the strength of players on the wings I don't see Visser getting in the squad. He has Cuthbert, North and Bowe in front of him, and possibly Halfpenny as well as he is a genuine contender for a winger spot if Kearney started at fullback. I think there are more likely to be 'bolter' in other positions. That said, if he plays well in the Six Nations he'd have a good shout.

The Australians have taught Lydiate and Warburton a lesson in the two tests so far. At the moment I think Lydiate might not even make the side and will really need to step it up against Australia. The Australian media have been harsh about him (too harsh perhaps), but are right in one regard- he is no better a player than Joe Worsley. He is a tackling machine for sure, but he does very little else. His ball carrying is poor and is work in rucks and mauls leaves a lot to be desired. The Australians showed that if you offload in the tackle against him he is seriously limited. Ryan Jones for me is Wales's best 6.

Also, there is no way that Ford would make the team over Rory Best over the previous years form, and Best against the All Blacks has been simply superb. It isn't even a contest. To have Rees and Ford ahead of him is astonishing.

I think you are mixing teams up. I have selected Best as Hooker At the moment head and shoulders above the comp. Indeed there is competition at 6, I however do not agree with the assesment of Lydiate. He is not a showboater like Ferris (a frustrated winger) and is a throwback 6 who does the unglamourous stuff. Clearly not in Richard Hills class as yet but for me a similar player. You only notice him when he is not there. I think I have been even handed in the back row selection. Rennie is the form 7 and went for Heaslip because I have not seen a stand out performance at 8 from anyone. Denton is not really an 8 so I will reserve judgement until we see how he goes in his 2nd season. A backrow needs to balanced and I think this one is.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:08 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:I don't even mind the Lydiate hype what annoys me is when some posters were bigging up Lydiate whilst saying Robshaw, whO does the same thing (but better according to the 6N stats) whilst being a highly underrated linkman and has put in some great breakdown dominations against top sides like Leicester, Saracens and SA is apparently too limited according to the same posters

The difference between Lydiate, Worsley and Robshaw is Warburton. Warburton might not be in the same class as McCaw and Pocock but he is still a very good 7. In the Welsh game plan Lydiate's work allows Warburton to excel and vice versa. I think Wales would be greatly improved with someone more rounded at 6, and the limitations of Lydiate have been exposed by a very good Australian back row. A Warburton/Tipuric combo would be interesting.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:08 am

It depends who starts, maybe, although someone like Warbs or Tobshaw might get extra points for leadership.

Any of the following could be a captaincy candidate if they are deemed first choice-

Hartley (I know people won't like that though), Ford (not my choice), Brown, Warburton, Ryan Jones, POC, BOD, Robshaw, Wood, Croft, Blair

by ChequeredJersey Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:10 am

Ferris is a frustrated winger? I don't think he's the best 6 in the world but he's very physical and does a lot in the tight.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:16 am

[quote="dragonbreath"][quote="Hookisms and Hyperbole"]

dragonbreath wrote:
I think you are mixing teams up. I have selected Best as Hooker At the moment head and shoulders above the comp. Indeed there is competition at 6, I however do not agree with the assesment of Lydiate. He is not a showboater like Ferris (a frustrated winger) and is a throwback 6 who does the unglamourous stuff. Clearly not in Richard Hills class as yet but for me a similar player. You only notice him when he is not there. I think I have been even handed in the back row selection. Rennie is the form 7 and went for Heaslip because I have not seen a stand out performance at 8 from anyone. Denton is not really an 8 so I will reserve judgement until we see how he goes in his 2nd season. A backrow needs to balanced and I think this one is.

Best has been head and shoulders above his rivals for the best part of a year now. He was one of the few of the Irish team whose credit was increased during a dreadful and dismal Six Nations. Heaslip should be nowhere near the Lions squad at present. Many of us Irish fans don't even think he should be playing in green at present let alone Lions red. Your assessment of Ferris is absolute nonsense. Playing in an Irish pack with no direction and poor tactical gameplan he had a pretty good Six Nations and a superb season for Ulster. To say he is a showboater just demonstrates how little you have actually watched him. I do though largely agree with your side though apart from these two selections. However Dan Lydiate is absolutely nowhere near the class of Richard Hill, not even in the same universe. He might be the same style of player but nowhere near the class. "Balance' is overrated, it's about having a tactical game plan and having a back row that can carry it out just as Wales did in the Six Nations. Witness an Irish back row superior on paper but lacking a coherent game plan to see what a difference it makes.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:19 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ferris is a frustrated winger? I don't think he's the best 6 in the world but he's very physical and does a lot in the tight.

Agreed, a silly first remark

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