Now that the dust has settled

Right I think I speak for most of us here.

It was a brave effort from all teams at the weekend against the BIG three SH teams but once again it has ended in three defeats. OK these guys did have home advantage and yes they are ranked higher than all of us in the IRB rankings (not that they are relevant! For the time being anyway ) but I'm beginning to get fed up with the NH teams failing to beat these guys.

Wales should have won, Ireland were so close to pulling it off and England still make stupid mistakes that cost them time and time again so it's hard to say if we are improving or not.

So I ask the 606vs public to voice their opinions on what we need to do to beat these guys.

IMO I don't think we believe in ourselves enough, the SH guys always seem to have a slight swagger about them.

HERSH,

I think the English have proved in the past (not this bunch yet) that they can win against the big boys home and away so I don't think its a belief thing for them more a matter of Lancaster still trying to get a team together.

There are few areas which really needs to be looked at IMO, 2nd row seemed very lightweight Botha not international class IMO and centres, just seems no spark there.

For us and the Irish then it is a lot about belief but we have heard that from Wales for far too many years now and I am sick to the teeth of hearing about positives in defeat and learning from these games.

Give me a scrappy dire 3-0 win at the moment over one of them and I would snap hand off.

Maybe we need to be playing domestic rugby with them week in week out (it will never happen though). Playing HC rugby and 6N rugby with teams consistently ranked 4-8,9,10 will at best only make you as good as those teams. Wales doing the grand slam only means they're the best of the teams ranked 4-10, obviously. It's no indication that we should be abe to beat the teams ranked 1-3.

Griff,

Not that I ever want to big England up but they have consistently managed it over the years so it can be done.

For us I do think its about getting that 'monkey' off our back as they say. I agree with Gatland and Co about more we play them etc but we do need to get a win soon.

Ireland - were the bravest and were unfortunate not to get the draw they deserved

England - were just blown away and the scoreline somewhat flatters them IMO after numerous SA changes. It could easily have been 40+ - Reality hurts and the backline still play as if they dont know each other

Wales - Lack of composure all round and not a very convincing performance from Wales. If Wales can get that close not playing well and lacking composure then it can't be that bad.

France also managed to lose to an Argentinian B/C side led by Contepomi so makes it quad nation 4 -0 6N...

bedfordwelsh wrote:Griff,

Not that I ever want to big England up but they have consistently managed it over the years so it can be done.

For us I do think its about getting that 'monkey' off our back as they say. I agree with Gatland and Co about more we play them etc but we do need to get a win soon.

Bedford, I wouldn't call it consistently. Yes, they've got the hoodoo over Oz at home and recently away, but not since their purple patch of 2002/3 have they done too well on away trips to the 3N sides. Certainly not consistently, which would suggest year on year.

Brian Moore has written quite a balanced article about this. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9337096/England-Ireland-and-Wales-still-trail-southern-hemisphere-giants-where-it-counts-on-the-scoreboard.html

The title of the piece is an excellent summary of his main point, but the article looks nicely at how the NH teams are competitive at almost all parts of the game but are not worldly wise enough (at the moment) to close out and win these close encounters.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Griff,

Not that I ever want to big England up but they have consistently managed it over the years so it can be done.

For us I do think its about getting that 'monkey' off our back as they say. I agree with Gatland and Co about more we play them etc but we do need to get a win soon.

Not really true sadly.

A decent record against australia (9 wins in 16 matches since 99 RWC) including 5 wins in a row up to the final in 2003.
Recent record over SA not so good, 7 wins in a row (5 at Twickenham) has now been followed by 9 defeats in a row.
While over New Zealand we have just 2 wins (the 2 matchups prior to RWC 2003) and another 9 match losing streak.

The team that won the RWC did have a very good record against SANZAR teams in that 4 year cycle (12 wins from 13 games) which is what you would expect from a team that has the No1 ranking and wins the RWC. However it was but a brief purple patch.

RubyGuby wrote:Ireland - were the bravest and were unfortunate not to get the draw they deserved

England - were just blown away and the scoreline somewhat flatters them IMO after numerous SA changes. It could easily have been 40+ - Reality hurts and the backline still play as if they dont know each other

Wales - Lack of composure all round and not a very convincing performance from Wales. If Wales can get that close not playing well and lacking composure then it can't be that bad.

England were blown away initially, but actually much better teams than England would have struggled with the intensity of the Boks' play in the first half. To dig in and get within 4 points at 5 minutes left to play was hugely creditable. Lest we not forget BOTH teams made substitutions. Obviously there are areas to work on, but much heart can be taken from this performance - I think its wishful thinking on your part that the scoreline flattered England, I don't think it did, the two teams on the day played the way they played. Relatively simple equation.

Some wishful thinking of my own... They may have got close but I speculate that Wales have peaked and either will not or cannot improve. At least England have the excuse of looking like they don't know each other, Wales don't have that luxury.

My mistake then guys didn't realise England had lost 9 in row against the Boks.

Equo - Happy to disagree here, you might want to also factor in Steyne missing so many kicks. SA took their foot off and Meyer paid the price for the changes. I appreciate you want to see it differently - That's your perogative so enjoy it,

Wales were poor in the 6 Nations and have not played well in Aus - That's life, I can live with it. Peaked! No where near but you can always hope

I saw Ireland give New Zealand a massive scare and they should have closed that game out. New Zealand never give up on the win and to beat them you have to do the same.

Wales frustrate yet again. a poor decision on the field at the death cost us a much needed win. one thing I would say is to see the Australians celebrate a two point home win against us in the way they did shows how far we have come even in 5 years. We are at least equal to them and maybe for a bit of brain power would be better.

Haven't seen Englands match yet but they are a very promising group of young players and as such can't really be judged on losing to SA away from home. In a couple of seasons they will be battle hardened and very strong.

Scotland are currently looking good although I think they might come unstuck against Samoa. Not many teams go to Fiji and when they do they find it very hard so to come away with a win is a great success, not to mention the Australia win.


All in all improvement needed. I can't see any of them getting a win this weekend either. Maybe Scotland but probably not

"I speculate that Wales have peaked and either will not or cannot improve"

It's a bit early to suggest that a side packed with players in their early 20's has reached the top of the graph yet.In fact it's that very inexperience which was probably crucial at the death.

Yeah Halfpenny was oldest at what 24 maybe the old head of Roberts at 25 might have made difference who knows.

England have lots of promise but for me their 2nd row nad centres need to be sorted out.

SAs substititions and missed penalties aligned with England's gutsy comeback masks the fact that they were seriously blown away in the 1st half. Not enough physicality to take on the big beasts. We have spoken for ages about the need for an enforcer in the 2nd row and maybe we just don't have one currently. I think people forget that when we did beat SA we had some big guys. These are the forwards from the last victory in 2006.
N8 8 Martin Corry (c)
OF 7 Pat Sanderson
BF 6 Joe Worsley
RL 5 Ben Kay
LL 4 Tom Palmer
TP 3 Julian White
HK 2 George Chuter
LP 1 Andrew Sheridan

Tree cutter Worsley......maybe we should start to appreciate his defensive capabilities more now. Corry, Kay, Sheridan were all able to take the Boks on on the gain line. Compare to Saturday and the hardness is not there. Then you have to factor in our mid-field issues and victories are unlikely to be achieved in the near future over the Southern Hemisphere. I don't really see much light at the end of the tunnel.

As for Wales I think they can go and win as they have the talent. Ireland played a blinder and took advantage of a complacent New Zealand, but that won't happen again and I fear for the men in green this time around.

But well done Scotland for flying the flag so well.

bedfordwelsh wrote:My mistake then guys didn't realise England had lost 9 in row against the Boks.

Agreed, England are much better at beating the Wallabies, home and away, which is more than other teams I could mention can do.

RubyGuby wrote:Equo - Happy to disagree here, you might want to also factor in Steyne missing so many kicks. SA took their foot off and Meyer paid the price for the changes. I appreciate you want to see it differently - That's your perogative so enjoy it,

Wales were poor in the 6 Nations and have not played well in Aus - That's life, I can live with it. Peaked! No where near but you can always hope

Complete nonsense. I read an article before the match by the SA hooker saying that rugby was like going to war to them, life and death stuff. The SH teams and particularly SA do NOT take their foot off, they're famous for not doing this - look at the AB and Aus games (won in the last seconds). Both sides made subs of lesser quality (Mears for example). England won the 2nd half and came within a score, unfortuantely SA had completely dominated the 1st half and well deserved their win. The final score board is what matters.

That's fine by me Barney - I still maintain they took their foot off with so many key replacements and England scored a couple of opportunistic trys to their credit. Alberts and Du Plessis were head and shoulders above everyone before coming off

At the moment ENG do not have the physicality to beat teams like SA & NZ.

They are constantly just beat up. Post 04 they had the forwards but not the backs, now its the other way around. If ENG don't get front foot ball their game is pretty useless/easy to contain.

If ENG can have players such as Wood & Croft in the lineout they don't need a lineout expert such as Parling... They could pick 2 grinders to boss the scrum... perhaps ENG need someone like Matt Garvey in the second row just to give them bite... if Lawes could come back and add a few kgs of muscle then that would be a fearsome combination.

If your scrum is dominant you will dominate possession and the game. Once SA get Bekker, Schalk and Vermuleun back you can add a lot more strength into that pack and the task gets even more difficult... ENG has to respond.

fa0019 is Spot on - Without the physicality it will be difficult to impossible and the game was virtually over after 20 minutes

I dont think any blame of weak mentality can be levelled at England. In short, they are a young team in transition with a new management. But in the past England have shown they can cope with expectation and have the self belief to beat the SH teams. In terms of timing, this is just nowhere near a finished article team taking on SA so we have to be realistic. We are not losing games thanks to lack of belief, winning mentality or compusure.

The same can not be said for Wales I believe. They went to Australia with high hopes and expectations and on the back of a grand slam. But they are coming up short, as in the world cup, which I think has much to do with mindset and belief. They have got themsleves into winning positions and failed to close games out. It shouldnt be down to lack of quality or a new coaching set up. They have a good set of players and a settled coaching system. To come away with three test defeats to Australia could only be viewed as unexpected and highly disappointing. And please dont say it is all down to Priestland.....

Ireland, well not much was expected against them against the world champions. They had a torrid first test and were played off the park. But they can take positives from the second which was probably about as much as they could dare hope for at the start. Regardless of result or performance the Irish fans seem hellbent on blaming Kidney so I think its fair to say while he remains in charge the team will suffer criticism. Mentally I dont think Ireland can cope with expectation, but little was expected of them against the All Blacks so they get to play as the plucky underdogs which seems to suit them best. Anything other than being blown out of the water NZ in the third test means I think Ireland can come away with at least some kind of positive, as a big performance in the second test is probably the most they were looking for.

So many coaches have sacrificed physicality for lighter more mobile players... but if they get beat up upfront none of the additional mobility will matter, you have to give your team at least a chance to win the ball... and the only way to do that is to have decent possession.

Whats the point of a guy like Parling if he doesn't dominate lineouts and win a couple against the head. Palmer is a far better player around the field and is decent in the lineout?

ENG in 2010 were beat up by SA at twickenham and given a harsh lesson. They had just come off a big win vs. AUS and morale was high... I remember them saying they were taught a thing or two about test rugby and that this wouldn't happen again... In reality they haven't learnt a thing since then in terms of how you beat SA. It may be a new pack but they still should do their homework... when has a SA pack ever played in a different way???

Ashton is particularly dependent on front foot ball... without it his game, his qualities are neutralised.

The last time an ENG team really bossed a SA side around was in 04 when they kicked lumps out of the newly crowned 3N champs. Schalk Burger still to this day says that was the toughest match he ever played in.

Look at the pack they fielded that day

G Rowntree, S Thompson, J White, D Grewcock, S Borthwick, J Worsley, L Moody, M Corry.

That was one mean pack and particularly fearsome in the front five.

The same rules still applies today. that is the sort of type of front five you need to compete with SA.

Gordy wrote:I dont think any blame of weak mentality can be levelled at England. In short, they are a young team in transition with a new management. But in the past England have shown they can cope with expectation and have the self belief to beat the SH teams. In terms of timing, this is just nowhere near a finished article team taking on SA so we have to be realistic. We are not losing games thanks to lack of belief, winning mentality or compusure.

The same can not be said for Wales I believe. They went to Australia with high hopes and expectations and on the back of a grand slam. But they are coming up short, as in the world cup, which I think has much to do with mindset and belief. They have got themsleves into winning positions and failed to close games out. It shouldnt be down to lack of quality or a new coaching set up. They have a good set of players and a settled coaching system. To come away with three test defeats to Australia could only be viewed as unexpected and highly disappointing. And please dont say it is all down to Priestland.....

Ireland, well not much was expected against them against the world champions. They had a torrid first test and were played off the park. But they can take positives from the second which was probably about as much as they could dare hope for at the start. Regardless of result or performance the Irish fans seem hellbent on blaming Kidney so I think its fair to say while he remains in charge the team will suffer criticism. Mentally I dont think Ireland can cope with expectation, but little was expected of them against the All Blacks so they get to play as the plucky underdogs which seems to suit them best. Anything other than being blown out of the water NZ in the third test means I think Ireland can come away with at least some kind of positive, as a big performance in the second test is probably the most they were looking for.

Like I said, it is my contention that Wales have peaked and either cannot or will not improve significantly enough to make the next level.

I agree that Wales have been most disappointment of all the NH teams because they had so promise with 6NGS and RWC placings to claim to be "best of Europe" and they first say they will win first test because Australia already beaten by Scotland and play 3 games in one week and have so many injury against Wales full strength.

Then they make the excuse "rusty" and claim will winning the second test. But again they don't winning.

Now if they losing 3-0 will be some humiliation about claims is my mind.

Eng = rebuilding and check the style for new coach and saw a lot of things against full strength SA side. Especially compare to Wales. Eng = commitment and "never-say-die". But Wales already do some choke when they should have winning.

Ire = wiped out but show some character and spirit and SMART brain from a coach who get a lot of fury at him! So there is some take away.

Wales will win the 3rd test as the pressure will be off.

Thats their problem, they can't turn it on when it matters.

Its all about mentality once they get the 1st one I think itll begin to even things up, its often been mentioned that England managed tour wins in the run up to the RWC win and that it helped and built a belief within the players. How many sat watching the ABs at the end thinking their down to 14 and theyre still going to find a way? I bet the Irish players had doubt were as the ABs had faith

That argument marty not bearing out by the time.

Because England did win one or two but it is not "even up". Now is many full moons since England last beat the full strength SH teams regular!

So we have 2 moral victorys to Ireland and England for losing by 3 points and 9 respectively and a damning indictment of the welsh minnows away to the current NH champs for losing by 2 points with a kick in the 82nd minute.
Its a funny old game and perhaps that summation sais it all; Pain or no Pain AWOP.

Well, not exactly yesterday, but a home and away win against Australia in the Autumn of 2010 is better than most NH teams I think you'll find.

Look guys. England were blown away with a direct power game. SA can turn that on for any 20 min session in a game and take the match away from us. England are not a match for their intensity and power. The sad thing is I don't think this particular group of players ever will be either. We need a few more like Alberts, Etzebeth, Burger, DuPlessis, JDV, etc. etc.

anotherworldofpain wrote:I agree that Wales have been most disappointment of all the NH teams because they had so promise with 6NGS and RWC placings to claim to be "best of Europe" and they first say they will win first test because Australia already beaten by Scotland and play 3 games in one week and have so many injury against Wales full strength.

Then they make the excuse "rusty" and claim will winning the second test. But again they don't winning.

Now if they losing 3-0 will be some humiliation about claims is my mind.

Eng = rebuilding and check the style for new coach and saw a lot of things against full strength SA side. Especially compare to Wales. Eng = commitment and "never-say-die". But Wales already do some choke when they should have winning.

Ire = wiped out but show some character and spirit and SMART brain from a coach who get a lot of fury at him! So there is some take away.

Yep, of you disregard Schalk Burger, Andries Bekker, Duane Vermeulen and Juan Smith, then we were pretty much full strength.

So England are great again.

Thanks Biltong

englandglory4ever wrote:Look guys. England were blown away with a direct power game. SA can turn that on for any 20 min session in a game and take the match away from us. England are not a match for their intensity and power. The sad thing is I don't think this particular group of players ever will be either. We need a few more like Alberts, Etzebeth, Burger, DuPlessis, JDV, etc. etc.

Ah come on now, don't you think England have enough South Africans in their side?.... ...

Yep, of you disregard Schalk Burger, Andries Bekker, Duane Vermeulen and Juan Smith, then we were pretty much full strength.



Bilt - Yet again Steyne's kicking was woeful. For what its worth I believe Ruan Piennar is a better SH than Houggard and a better kicker than Steyne. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that. Piennar is very much a thinking mans half back and for me just oozes class

rodders wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Look guys. England were blown away with a direct power game. SA can turn that on for any 20 min session in a game and take the match away from us. England are not a match for their intensity and power. The sad thing is I don't think this particular group of players ever will be either. We need a few more like Alberts, Etzebeth, Burger, DuPlessis, JDV, etc. etc.

Ah come on now, don't you think England have enough South Africans in their side?.... ...

Says the man from Ulster who were dealing out contracts for project players at the JWC.

RubyGuby wrote:Yep, of you disregard Schalk Burger, Andries Bekker, Duane Vermeulen and Juan Smith, then we were pretty much full strength.



Bilt - Yet again Steyne's kicking was woeful. For what its worth I believe Ruan Piennar is a better SH than Houggard and a better kicker than Steyne. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that. Piennar is very much a thinking mans half back and for me just oozes class

Rubyguby, Steyn has now missed 20 points in the two matches, pretty poor. Pienaar hasn't had enogh time to prove himself, I would like to see him play 80 minutes though.

biltongbek wrote:

rodders wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Look guys. England were blown away with a direct power game. SA can turn that on for any 20 min session in a game and take the match away from us. England are not a match for their intensity and power. The sad thing is I don't think this particular group of players ever will be either. We need a few more like Alberts, Etzebeth, Burger, DuPlessis, JDV, etc. etc.

Ah come on now, don't you think England have enough South Africans in their side?.... ...

Says the man from Ulster who were dealing out contracts for project players at the JWC.

Ah come now Biltong sure we lent you our best scrum half.... Ruan O'Pienaar.... ...

Well Wales have a shot for the win next week thats for sure but selection will be key, but being the best team in the NH grandslam champs and 4th in the world rankings we are the only beacon of hope for the NH.

Ireland have got to know in the back of their minds that the golden opportunity to take the scalp of the AllBlacks has gone, they ain't going to give Ireland an inch this coming test.

England look likely to be on the end of a cricket score this week.

1(1) NEW ZEALAND 91.43
2(2) AUSTRALIA 86.77
3(3) SOUTH AFRICA 85.47
4(5) WALES 82.54
5(4) ENGLAND 82.49
6(7) ARGENTINA 81.22
7(6) FRANCE 81.06
8(8) IRELAND 79.85
9(9) SAMOA 77.64
10(11) SCOTLAND 76.56
11(10) TONGA 76.19

rodders wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

rodders wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Look guys. England were blown away with a direct power game. SA can turn that on for any 20 min session in a game and take the match away from us. England are not a match for their intensity and power. The sad thing is I don't think this particular group of players ever will be either. We need a few more like Alberts, Etzebeth, Burger, DuPlessis, JDV, etc. etc.

Ah come on now, don't you think England have enough South Africans in their side?.... ...

Says the man from Ulster who were dealing out contracts for project players at the JWC.

Ah come now Biltong sure we lent you our best scrum half.... Ruan O'Pienaar.... ...

You didn't lend him to us you... you...

You just gave him back.

viewtothegym wrote:1(1) NEW ZEALAND 91.43
2(2) AUSTRALIA 86.77
3(3) SOUTH AFRICA 85.47
4(5) WALES 82.54
5(4) ENGLAND 82.49
6(7) ARGENTINA 81.22
7(6) FRANCE 81.06
8(8) IRELAND 79.85
9(9) SAMOA 77.64
10(11) SCOTLAND 76.56
11(10) TONGA 76.19

Number of posts by Welsh posters pointing out Wales overtake England despite both lost : 1,798,234,212

There is no one thing that all these countries can do to make a difference. There is no one thing that one rugby union can do to change the performance of their team. One hundred things maybe...

Just because some countries are geographically close together doesn't make their problems or attitudes in playing rugby all alike. This NH way of looking at European rugby is absurd. Different countries, different styles of play, different club make up, different demographics, different finances, different domestic leagues, different languages.

I know, maybe the touring sides should play better! That might work!

anotherworldofpain wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:1(1) NEW ZEALAND 91.43
2(2) AUSTRALIA 86.77
3(3) SOUTH AFRICA 85.47
4(5) WALES 82.54
5(4) ENGLAND 82.49
6(7) ARGENTINA 81.22
7(6) FRANCE 81.06
8(8) IRELAND 79.85
9(9) SAMOA 77.64
10(11) SCOTLAND 76.56
11(10) TONGA 76.19

Number of posts by Welsh posters pointing out Wales overtake England despite both lost : 1,798,234,212

Don't be too hard on him, I know Eng fans would be celebrating a 0.05 lead.

They were

Maybe the forum should make a sticky thread for IRB Rankings so we can discuss in one place?

But everyone knows the IRB rankings system is flawed.

How could England be ahead of Wales for so long when they won the grand slam + 4th place in the RWC.

HERSH wrote:Wales will win the 3rd test as the pressure will be off.

Thats their problem, they can't turn it on when it matters.

HERSH,

I actually fear that we may get stuffed. I am not sure the boys are strong enough metally to pick themselves up.

I reckon it will be one of those game we either win or we lose badly, obviously hope its the first one.

If Beale is back it will make the Ozzies more dangerous.