Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

First topic message reminder :

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

Hey guys... just about to merge this Poll into the main sticky in International.

So would you mind re-casting your votes please. Sorry for the hassle.

red_stag wrote:Im not twisting anything Clive.

I am being very straight. I think a win against NZ is worth more to us than anything else that we can do over the next 7 days.

I think would be a massive lift to the team and it would back up the amazing performance we turned in against them last week.

I dont mind which players do it but we must win.

Stag will it lift the players who are left out though? they could see it as being thought of as not good enough and if most of those players are going to be the core of the team in 2015 is it worth it long term? Will they get the chance to experience playing the ABs before the RWC?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Just checked exactly what they said: They said he wasn't happy to be moved because D'Arcy was injured. They did say he was having a good game at 10 (I made no comment on that). They said he didn't even acknowledge O'Gara when he came on (very poor form).

According to the Guardian Blog on the match, BOD had to go over to him and tell him to 'cop on'.

They seemed to know that he was moved because D'Arcy was injured, so they certainly didn't think it was an odd change.

So where did they comment on his poor behaviour? Watch on a little bit more, and you hear one of the commentators saying he doesn't really understand why that call was made either. He says that surely one of the backs such as Zebo could have been moved into the centres, and BOD could have moved to 12. He thought Sexton shouldn't have been moved.

Very poor form is my comment - which I think it is - not to acknowledge someone coming on or off the pitch. The commentator obviously doesn't know that Zebo has never played in the centre before. He did think that Sexton shouldn't have been moved, but he then goes onto say a few minutes later that it might have been an inspired substitution and make general comments about how Ireland's attack has improved and in particular the kick-offs.

I don't have a link to the Guardian blog - it was a comment from someone at the end of it and there are 100s of them.

If we have to drag Mal O’Kelly and Anthony Foley out of retirement to secure a win against NZ (I’m imposing a moratorium on their nickname, humanize them, then conquer them ) then I’ll be flipping delighted. Even if not one single player who takes to the pitch on Saturday makes the RWC squad in 2015 then it’s still crucial that we beat NZ. No question about it whatsoever…

Agree with Mick.

Clive I definitly believe it will benefit all our players whether playing or not.

Sin, you love to crawl out of danger.

You did say that the commentators said that Sexton displayed poor behaviour. I know it is your comment, but you said firstly the commentators said it which they did not.

I'm with you stag.

Sin do you really have to twist every comment, stat and article to fit your childish and irrational vendetta against all things non-Munster.

You are ruining every Irish thread with this nonsence.

Sexton didn't want to move, he moved, played well and thats the end of it. Why do you have to make a big drama out of it?

I agree with Stag, a win raises the bar, breaks pyscholgical barriers and takes us into new territory. No matter how we do it, it will be a huge positive if we win.

However there are still big problems with the coaching setup, tactics and selection policy that haven't and won't disappear and they need to be addressed after the tour.

A win against NZ would be as massvie as beating England in 2004. There was a time when we genuinely feared England. If we beat NZ, we mightn't fear them as much.

Thomond wrote:A win against NZ would be as massvie as beating England in 2004. There was a time when we genuinely feared England. If we beat NZ, we mightn't fear them as much.

Jeebus Thomond it would be far bigger than that mate! Sure we've never beaten the ABs ever.

This would be bigger than winning a GS in historical terms and as an achievement only winning a RWC would be better...well bar winning the actual series obviously.

I know it would be a fair bit bigger but was trying to do a comparison.

Fair enough but like I say, this is as big as it gets outside a RWC. To beat the ABs on their own soil would be monumental for Irish rugby...thats why losing last weak was so hard to take.

If we can do it this week it will be awesome, best thing ever .

Lads you know what sine e is like. Why entertain his comments.

It's a relevant comparison T, England were all conquering World Champions, unbeaten in about 2 years too i think.

It would be bigger though, all of that PLUS we've never beaten NZ before.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, you love to crawl out of danger.

You did say that the commentators said that Sexton displayed poor behaviour. I know it is your comment, but you said firstly the commentators said it which they did not.

I put it in brackets to indicate it was my opinion. And the reason I thought it was poor form was because they mentioned it was an issue in the first place.

Sin é wrote:
Sexton has about as much chance as me to captain Ireland. Even the SH commentators were commentating on his poor behaviour when ROG came on.

We'd beaten England in 2002 as well.

No disrespect to England but you can't compare them to the ABs... World champions or not. The ABs are the pinacle of the game, the gold standard... the fact that this lot are reigning world champs is just the icing on the cake.

rodders wrote:Sin do you really have to twist every comment, stat and article to fit your childish and irrational vendetta against all things non-Munster.

You are ruining every Irish thread with this nonsence.

Sexton didn't want to move, he moved, played well and thats the end of it. Why do you have to make a big drama out of it?

Hi Rods - I think Rory was the one who brought this up. Better have a word with him.

Cheers.

Sin é

We beat England in 2001. We got hammered by 30 points in 2002

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Sin do you really have to twist every comment, stat and article to fit your childish and irrational vendetta against all things non-Munster.

You are ruining every Irish thread with this nonsence.

Sexton didn't want to move, he moved, played well and thats the end of it. Why do you have to make a big drama out of it?

Hi Rods - I think Rory was the one who brought this up. Better have a word with him.

Cheers.

Sin é

What?? How did I bring it up? You made the comment about Sexton's poor behaviour!

Honestly, I’d put a win over NZ ahead of a grand slam right now.

Rory 1.37pm; To be fair, I haven't seen ROG attacked on here yet. His form is always questioned, but he himself hasn't been attacked. Sexton on the other hand.. I really hope he becomes captain of Ireland one day, it would be a huge paradox for Sin to deal with. Kidney made the call, so it must be right, but that dirty bugger, prima donna Sexton is the captain.

Headscratch chin

Thomond 1.38: Rory, he disobeyed the captain's orders last week. He is a maverick, complete naughty naughty boy who thinks he is better than the team. Joke he is starting ahead of Rog/Madigan.

Rory 1.40: Speaking of Madigan, I look forward to the inevitable Madigan vs Hanrahan battle on these forums..

Rory 1.42pm: Mate, it has already started. Laugh

According to Sin, Madigan doesn't know how to kick. 1-0 to Hanrahan.

Sin E: 1.55pm: Sexton has about as much chance as me to captain Ireland. Even the SH commentators were commentating on his poor behaviour when ROG came on.

Rory 1.56: No they weren't Sin, I watched the game with the SH commentary, and they didn't say anything of the sort. They said the opposite.

They said he looks very unhappy with the decision and that he was having a great game at 10 so it was an odd change.

Rory 1.58: They even suggested that Zebo moved to centre instead with BOD at 12, as Sexton should have been left at 10.

That is just a blatant lie from you Sin.

If posters are going to call me a blatent liar, I'm going to respond.

Mickado wrote:Honestly, I’d put a win over NZ ahead of a grand slam right now.

+1 Without a shadow of a doubt Mick. Not to to devalue a GS in anyway but beating these guys, even in a one of test would be a huge monkey of our backs.

It would be great to do it whilst BOD is still captain too, one of the last big box ticks for him as he's unlikely to play in another RWC.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton has about as much chance as me to captain Ireland. Even the SH commentators were commentating on his poor behaviour when ROG came on.

Sin you never responded to this

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Sexton has about as much chance as me to captain Ireland. Even the SH commentators were commentating on his poor behaviour when ROG came on.

Why mention that he didn't even acknowledge O'Gara when he came on if they didn't think it was a bit odd or do you think that they were commending him for his good behaviour?

Rory stop goading Sin... Sin please give it a rest with the anti Sexton nonsence.

Thanks .

rodders wrote:

Mickado wrote:Honestly, I’d put a win over NZ ahead of a grand slam right now.

+1 Without a shadow of a doubt Mick. Not to to devalue a GS in anyway but beating these guys, even in a one of test would be a huge monkey of our backs.

It would be great to do it whilst BOD is still captain too, one of the last big box ticks for him as he's unlikely to play in another RWC.

Tough to think that this is our last tour to NZ for 12 years, plenty of players will never get this opportunity again.

Rory, Sin

Get a room. Or another thread. Or just PM each other. Just please feic off from my match thread with this shoite. Nobody else cares. Thanks.

Mickado wrote:Honestly, I’d put a win over NZ ahead of a grand slam right now.

Sorry but this is just ludicrous. A win versus NZ is a single match. They will say NZ had a bad day, we got lucky, ref was biased etc...

Beating Italy Scotland Wales England France is a better accomplishment. It would also say more about the team and squads real talent on basis of form.

I'd take the Slam personally.

Uncalled for Notch. This is a public forum so it isn't your thread. You have had your own debates with Sin in the past, so just because someone else does, doesn't mean you need to get all bitchy with them. I pointed out what the commentators said in the game, and there were a few other people apart from myself who questioned what Sin said.

Plus I hadn't even responded to what he said last, so there was no need. You just brought it all up again with that pathetic post.

clivemcl wrote:

Mickado wrote:Honestly, I’d put a win over NZ ahead of a grand slam right now.

Sorry but this is just ludicrous. A win versus NZ is a single match. They will say NZ had a bad day, we got lucky, ref was biased etc...

Beating Italy Scotland Wales England France is a better accomplishment. It would also say more about the team and squads real talent on basis of form.

I'd take the Slam personally.

If winning the grand slam is a better achievement howcome we've done it twice and never beaten NZ?

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin

Get a room. Or another thread. Or just PM each other. Just please feic off from my match thread with this shoite. Nobody else cares. Thanks.

Opps, sorry. Didn't know you owned the match day thread

Mickado wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Mickado wrote:Honestly, I’d put a win over NZ ahead of a grand slam right now.

Sorry but this is just ludicrous. A win versus NZ is a single match. They will say NZ had a bad day, we got lucky, ref was biased etc...

Beating Italy Scotland Wales England France is a better accomplishment. It would also say more about the team and squads real talent on basis of form.

I'd take the Slam personally.

If winning the grand slam is a better achievement howcome we've done it twice and never beaten NZ?

Because we have the opportunity more often?

WE've had plent of cracks at NZ. But we can never nail it, it's a moot point anyway because we're not playing for a GS at the weekend. I just reall want to beat them.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin

Get a room. Or another thread. Or just PM each other. Just please feic off from my match thread with this shoite. Nobody else cares. Thanks.

Opps, sorry. Didn't know you owned the match day thread

Check the OP, biatch. Now change the record or cram it. You too Gallagher.

You've had months of this shoite. I'm done engaging with Sin, and I'm done engaging with anyone who engages with Sin. Last time we had to have a whole separate topic just to avoid this childishness. Now go.Go forth and multiply and give the rest of us some peace.

Clive,

Beating NZ will put us in a better position mentally to win the GS than handing out cheap caps to youngsters.

This is test rugby and there is more to it than the rugby world cup.

Thomond wrote:A win against NZ would be as massvie as beating England in 2004. There was a time when we genuinely feared England. If we beat NZ, we mightn't fear them as much.

Maybe the fear could be used as a weapon Thomond. The French fear the ABs and have said so on numerous occasions. They then use it to screw us over at the worst possible times!

I think this is definitely the right time to go for the win.I like the team it's the one I'd have picked for the 1st Test except I'd swap McFadden for Trimble.

I know some people would like to see us develop players but right now this team needs to develop a gameplan and consistent performances more.If we pull off 2 big performances in a row then we've got something out of this tour,add a win and it's been Kidneys first real success since the GS.

Stag, which matches do we blood the players in then? Fiji? Any other teams you'd consider blooding against? I also think one off caps are pretty pointless. They need a few games on the trot.

I hope the team feels the same way as you guys. You lot can definitely do it, I was thinking about the game earlier and it was like wow could be only two days left for the 107 year wait to end.

Can feel the stars aligning for this one. Especially for BOD who deserves a bit of revenge for 2005. The one team he needs to beat-he's never going to win a World Cup so this would be the cherry.

They can't lose focus amongst all this anticipation and excitement. Do that and the All Blacks will hammer you.

Any Kiwis know what the weather is like in Hamilton? Asked before but got no response.

Personally I think home matches whether in the 6 Nations or AI's are the right matches to blood players.

Away from home is riskier and should be reserved for players who are performing so well they can't be left out.

Now before this tour I was calling for Cave,Tuohy etc. to get a chance which would seem to contradict my previous point but that was because Kidney had refused to try anyone new at lock or centre for so long I just wanted to see change as soon as possible.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Personally I think home matches whether in the 6 Nations or AI's are the right matches to blood players.

Away from home is riskier and should be reserved for players who are performing so well they can't be left out.

Totally agree.

The problem is the 6N is the main revenue driver for the IRFU so they won't allow for any sort of experimention for long term planning in that competition.....they don't seem to realise that if you don't plan ahead and bring younger guys through then you'll eventually end up near the bottom of the 6N table anyways.

clivemcl wrote:Stag, which matches do we blood the players in then? Fiji? Any other teams you'd consider blooding against? I also think one off caps are pretty pointless. They need a few games on the trot.

Why do players need "blooding". Why not just pick whoever is the best. If we do that along with injury and suspesion we will continue to see an evolving team.

The big issue is that in the past we never picked our "currently" best team. We would just pick whoever was best last time which meant a lot of guys never got a shot.

I understand what this discussion is about seeing which one is more important but I'll put it this way-

We can't choose to win either, a Test against New Zealand or a Grand Slam, what we must do is work really damn hard. And the one we have to work really damn hard at next is the New Zealand game. The next one is always the important one in Test rugby.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Now before this tour I was calling for Cave,Tuohy etc. to get a chance which would seem to contradict my previous point but that was because Kidney had refused to try anyone new at lock or centre for so long I just wanted to see change as soon as possible.

I don't think that the likes of Dan Tuohy, Craig Gilroy, Peter O'Mahony would have been "blooding".

They would have simply been the best in their positions.

MBTGOG wrote:The next one is always the important one in Test rugby.

Indeed.

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Personally I think home matches whether in the 6 Nations or AI's are the right matches to blood players.

Away from home is riskier and should be reserved for players who are performing so well they can't be left out.

Totally agree.

The problem is the 6N is the main revenue driver for the IRFU so they won't allow for any sort of experimention for long term planning in that competition.....they don't seem to realise that if you don't plan ahead and bring younger guys through then you'll eventually end up near the bottom of the 6N table anyways.

Earls & McFadden played in the centre for the 6Ns, so its a bit soon to drop them for Cave (who was injured anyway). Conor Murray has about 10 caps and has played only a few times with Sexton (and a lot of people were yelling for Reddan to start). McFadden & Zebo are all short of international experience as well. Donncha Ryan has about 10 starts, so it would be unfair to drop him when he is doing so well. Tuohy is lucky to be getting another chance.

When you look at it a fair few players have been blooded (and fairly seemlessly).

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Rory, Sin

Get a room. Or another thread. Or just PM each other. Just please feic off from my match thread with this shoite. Nobody else cares. Thanks.

Opps, sorry. Didn't know you owned the match day thread

Check the OP, biatch. Now change the record or cram it. You too Gallagher.

You've had months of this shoite. I'm done engaging with Sin, and I'm done engaging with anyone who engages with Sin. Last time we had to have a whole separate topic just to avoid this childishness. Now go.Go forth and multiply and give the rest of us some peace.

Your not helping the situation with hissy fit posts like this.

PS - I thought the whole separate thread was extremely childish. If you can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen.

PPS - I voted in the opening post.

Sin é wrote:Donncha Ryan has about 10 starts

I find that amazing. Just shows how such a good player can be held back so much when he's behind one of the greatest in his position.

Before the first test I thought that we might lose by quite a bit - we did, before the second test I thought we'd be much closer - we were, before the third test I think that we could win it by a whisker - we will.

Believe

red_stag wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Now before this tour I was calling for Cave,Tuohy etc. to get a chance which would seem to contradict my previous point but that was because Kidney had refused to try anyone new at lock or centre for so long I just wanted to see change as soon as possible.

I don't think that the likes of Dan Tuohy, Craig Gilroy, Peter O'Mahony would have been "blooding".

They would have simply been the best in their positions.

Yeah that's true,I'm using the term blooding as playing any player who doesn't have much experience whether he's best in his position or it's close and he's been given a chance to prove himself in a relatively 'safe' game.

The IRFU need a rethink on their policy towards the 6N,EOS and Kidney have both been very conservative at 6N time and it has hindered us more than helped.Picking the same 15 (bar injuries) 4 weeks in a row was just awful squad management and while Kidney has to take a fair portion of the blame it's obvious the pressure his bosses exert doesn't encourage him to rotate.