Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

First topic message reminder :

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

MMC wrote:

Sin é wrote:Donncha Ryan has about 10 starts

I find that amazing. Just shows how such a good player can be held back so much when he's behind one of the greatest in his position.

He was a bit unlucky with injury (in that he was injured at the same time as POC was).

One thing about DOC - he has been virtually injury free for most his career. Jumping into freezing lakes must work!

One things for sure you gotta love the Irish passion for this one. I have a feeling that when Ireland finally do top the ABs theyll do it in style...convincingly. Then wonder what the fuss of the last hundred years was all about! Who knows. They could become our new France.

A new coach. Our two best current players out. Several changes- mixture of old and new. Surely the best chance for Ireland since well...last week.

BOD for one certainly deserves to celebrate a win with the number of times hes had to front and fall short. Hes been involved in a few <10 point matches.

For us the newbies have simply got to get up. Who knows...The names Cane, Remano etc perhaps could be up there with the names of mccaw, Carter etc. Have to start somewhere.

The plan is although theyre new they have come through to the top in a system that works, that is proven. But in the end its still up to each to grab the opportunity. Its not that they wont...its how far will they run with it...

red_stag wrote:
Why do players need "blooding". Why not just pick whoever is the best. If we do that along with injury and suspesion we will continue to see an evolving team.

Because who is best, is a sum combination of all sorts of attributes and factors, of which experience and familiarity with the players around them are major contributors.

Rugby is a team game and you need units to function and the only way you will actually know if they work is by trying out different combinations and giving them time to develop.

You also have to have succession plans in place so that you don't end up with skills and knowledge gaps when key players retire or get injured and if you want to succeed in tournaments and win silverware you need to be able to rotate and adapt your gameplan...something we've been pretty dire at.

Team selection is not as simple as just picking your best players.... because your best players may not actually be your best players and unless you create a competitive squad enviroment you won't get the best out of your best players, even if they are indeed actually your best players....

A question for the Kiwis on here.How good is Crudens kicking,both Sexton and Carter have been fantastic from placed ball in both games can Cruden keep up to that level.I expect he won't be as good as Carter but is he still a 80%+ kicker.Also what's his range can he knock them over from half way?

How do you guys feel kick offs will work,with both Read and Carter out there is going to be a huge change on that front and I genuinely feel that was what won you the game last week.NZ had 60% possession and had we dealt with just half of your kick offs I think that would have been much closer and we'd have surely had at least one more scoring chance.

Since becoming an All Black Cruden was told to work on his kicking both at goal- which he hardly ever did, and from hand. He has added yards to his out of hand kicking and can goal from up to 50, his limit.

In fact last 3 years he would have improved his kicking more than anyone. Superxv I believe he is near the top in accuracy and ponts scored.

I think presently hes better than Carter in that area. His running is in a way superior and he takes the ball to the line quicker, can step etc.

I dont think we lose anything at all in fact we gain more on attack with he and SBW. I dont think Carter 'gets' SBW but cruden has worked a combo with him to stunning success with the Chiefs. What Carter has over Cruden and in fact every 10 is his composure and his uncanny ability to do the right things at the right time.

Ireland should not make the mistake of underestimating Cruden or he'll rip through them such is his confidence levels at the moment.

I feel like if Cruden was a NH player he'd be viewed as top quality. It's just the long shadow of Dan Carter that obscures him from our PoV. Wouldn't be surprised if chose Saturday to step out of it.

I'm sure he's more than capable but he was 3rd choice flyhalf at the WC and was behind Weepu as a kicker (when Weepu wasn't great) so you can see why I'd ask the question.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. Carter is nearly irreplaceable. But Cruden is dangerous.

Notch - sorry for getting grumpy with you earlier bro.

Morning folks.

Disney, Im 100 k away from Mooloo town , its 8 in the morning, not a cloud in the sky, not a puff of wind, 11c. trouble is it was like this yesterday morning and by 2 in the afternoon we had a torrential shower.

Asoreleftshoulder.
Its not only the ABs that have been working on the low kick offs, the chiefs have as well and Cruden has been a big part of that. Cruden knows that the only risk with it is to kick it too long so that it goes out on the full.If Ireland were smart they would flood the area between 10 and 22 metre lines and encourage New Zealand to kick deep which is the last thing we want to do.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Notch - sorry for getting grumpy with you earlier bro.

Thats ok. Just try and remember George Bernard Shaws old adage about wrestling with a pig

Sorry for the comparison Sin. Although I do stand by it.

Morning laurie. Are you going to watch history in tbe making tomorrow in molooland?
Odd one to pick this one ay?
Just feel our best chance is for the newer guys to go full out with all theyve learnt rather than sit back and conform, follow the experienced guys.

Morning tayloman
Actually I've got to go down to Whitianga tomorrow for a birthday party tomorrow night, and every one down there will be Mooloo supporters, and they will be loving seeing an All Black team with more Waikato players since the Clarke brothers.

I hope your right about the new players, as the Irish havent seen a lot of them, what we need to do is something different, Tamati Ellison could come in very handy from this tangent.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Notch - sorry for getting grumpy with you earlier bro.

Thats ok. Just try and remember George Bernard Shaws old adage about wrestling with a pig

Sorry for the comparison Sin. Although I do stand by it.

Yea, I know you and Rory really like it

Notch wrote:I feel like if Cruden was a NH player he'd be viewed as top quality. It's just the long shadow of Dan Carter that obscures him from our PoV. Wouldn't be surprised if chose Saturday to step out of it.

There are two kind of player go from club to international on "emergency" call up.

The first like Colin Slade who cant stop the mind working about doubting. My mind if Slade was destroyed by the pressure and still is now is in hiding. I heard the say that he "managed to get the injury he hope for" when he was put to starting. And is sad but probably true.

Second like Aaron Cruden who get the confidence and arrogant swagger from the chance. You see he get 300% better when put to the chance. He play so well for all blacks in RWC and grow into more mature and powerful personaility is clear.

Now I might argue he is the best no. 10 in NZ SXV this year even better than DC.

Something which I think a lot of people overlook with the smaller players like Cruden, is that he comes from a family which has a lot of wily tough rugby genes.

Yeah I like him. Hes some leadership abilities as well with the u20's captaincy and is obviously one to tackle challenges having come through his cancer/ illness.

Like Carter was with Mehrts I reckon Crudens gonna push Carter closely next year or two.

Thats true about the Chiefs Laurie- theyre all about getting combinations going and 6,7, 10,12 (add to that McCaw and Aaron Smith in between) could really put some holes through the fringes.

I know super xv means nothing when it comes to International rugby, however the opposite does apply.

Todd Blackadder must be thinking this International window in the middle of his season is doing him no favours at all, injuries to Reid , carter and McCaw looking definitely jaded.

Meanwhile the Chiefs are going from strength to strength.

Reid seems to be rather injury prone, no? Quite unfortunate, as he must be the favourite to become the next AB captain.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Notch wrote:I feel like if Cruden was a NH player he'd be viewed as top quality. It's just the long shadow of Dan Carter that obscures him from our PoV. Wouldn't be surprised if chose Saturday to step out of it.

There are two kind of player go from club to international on "emergency" call up.

The first like Colin Slade who cant stop the mind working about doubting. My mind if Slade was destroyed by the pressure and still is now is in hiding. I heard the say that he "managed to get the injury he hope for" when he was put to starting. And is sad but probably true.

Second like Aaron Cruden who get the confidence and arrogant swagger from the chance. You see he get 300% better when put to the chance. He play so well for all blacks in RWC and grow into more mature and powerful personaility is clear.

Now I might argue he is the best no. 10 in NZ SXV this year even better than DC.

Slade reminds me of Ken Rutherford. Ken was a NZ cricketer of great potential who made his debut against the West Indies, back when they were a force. It destroyed him. Slade due to injuries has had little time to develop and a fair amount of pressure to perform instantly. He definitely had the ability and skill set to be world class 1st 5. I can't see him getting there now. Barrett for me is the dark horse. He has that certain something.

blackcanelion wrote: Slade reminds me of Ken Rutherford. Ken was a NZ cricketer of great potential who made his debut against the West Indies, back when they were a force. It destroyed him. Slade due to injuries has had little time to develop and a fair amount of pressure to perform instantly. He definitely had the ability and skill set to be world class 1st 5. I can't see him getting there now. Barrett for me is the dark horse. He has that certain something.

Cruden is a top notch player. I was surprised NZ didn't look to bring him on last week for Savea, for SBW on wing and Carter at 12. But i suppose you won the test match so thats all that matters.

Do you think Barrett is a better prospect than his former U20's team mate Anscombe?I have only seen glimpses of both of them so apologies if it's a stupid question, but think Anscombe playing for Blues in what has been a disastorous season is a disadvantage. I know Barrett is in the NZ squad now, but will he remain ahead in the pecking order or do you think Anscombe will become the better player?.

last post before the game so here are some thoughts:

1. Ireland and NZ will be fired up for this one. For Ireland it's the last opportunity for many of these players to beat NZ. For NZ it's a young team with players looking to set a mark and older players determined to improve on last week.

2. Ireland will look to improve their restarts. they got towelled here for part of the game last week. I thought they'd countered NZ's advantage towards the end. NZ will have to work to maintain the standard with both carter and Reid out.

3. Ireland will look to improve their lineouts. NZ had an advantage I felt. I think Ireland will look to attack NZ's ball. Our back three are less of an attacking option in the lineout this week.

4. NZ will look to improve their scrum. Whilst NZ had the advantage in the first half, we struggled once we bought on replacements. Cron has suggested it's mostly to do with the second shove, so look for the loose forwards to bind for longer.

5. The kicking game. I expect more of the same from Ireland to start with, i.e. box kicks and a good kick chase. Don't be surprised if NZ look to kick the ball in behind the Irish defensive line. Carter felt he should have kicked more and that Irish defensive pattern left holes for a good kicking game to exploit. I think we might also see more box kicks from Smith if the game is tight.

6. The ruck. I think more of the same. It's the most difficult part of the game to adjust to. A new referee this week. I'm picking more of the same from the Irish. I think NZ will look to vary their game and try for a high tempo wide game again. However, it's forecast to be wet. As per usual a lot will depend on what the referee chooses to pick up.

7. defensive alignments. More of the same from both sides

8. Attacking structure. I think a lot will depend on the weather, the abilty of players to make the advantage line, and ruck rulings. If NZ have to commit players to control the ball, Ireland will look to go wide. NZ have a more balanced back three and three loosies with open side experience so don't be surprised if there are counter attacking opportunities.

Overall, an interesting game. There are a lot of raw young players in the NZ side. It'll be interesting to see if Ireland can back up.

Londonirishollie wrote:

blackcanelion wrote: Slade reminds me of Ken Rutherford. Ken was a NZ cricketer of great potential who made his debut against the West Indies, back when they were a force. It destroyed him. Slade due to injuries has had little time to develop and a fair amount of pressure to perform instantly. He definitely had the ability and skill set to be world class 1st 5. I can't see him getting there now. Barrett for me is the dark horse. He has that certain something.

Cruden is a top notch player. I was surprised NZ didn't look to bring him on last week for Savea, for SBW on wing and Carter at 12. But i suppose you won the test match so thats all that matters.

Do you think Barrett is a better prospect than his former U20's team mate Anscombe?I have only seen glimpses of both of them so apologies if it's a stupid question, but think Anscombe playing for Blues in what has been a disastorous season is a disadvantage. I know Barrett is in the NZ squad now, but will he remain ahead in the pecking order or do you think Anscombe will become the better player?.

I'm not sure. Anscombe has ability, Barritt seems to have the x factor. It'd be interesting to see Anscombe outside the Blues franchise. Something is wrong there, probably with at a board level.

Agree with all there BC, particularly the kicks which is a pet of Crudens. He's mastered that little chip through, with variations and subtle angles.

Theres a lot more pace in this team from 6-12 so I guess some high octane stuff is the plan.

Happy that Earls is back where he truly and solely belongs. Major plus for Ireland that Carter & Reid are out. No matter what the Keewees say.

It gives us a chance. Albeit a slim one. We have never, ever, in our History, had two, contiguous, consistent, top performances, at the highest level. Keewees by 15 min.

Just one more thing...
Paddy Bloody Wallace. This HAS to be the last of Kidneys clueless brain-farts and his last stand. It's way beyond laughable.


GO!

Gibson wrote:Major plus for Ireland that Carter & Reid are out. No matter what the Keewees say.

Perhaps...we just keep saying...

"There are no problems...there are only opportunities.."
"There are no problems...there are only opportunities.."
"There are no problems...there are only opportunities.."
"There are no problems...there are only opportunities.."
"There are no problems...there are only opportunities.."

This is where it is discovered that Cane and McCaw work in the same backrow and Cruden is fully "blooded" as a less experienced but more attacking version of Carter.

Taylor, mo chara, truth is man, ye can well afford to keep on saying it. For another 100 years.

E whakapono ki koutou. Meas.

As I pointed out in my thread "AllBlacks the future" a lot of remaining players have little or no experience.As to players not making the next RWC only Hore and Mealamu [Flynn too] are definite non starters.Most of the Squad or those there abouts have EVERY chance of being at the next RWC.That includes McCaw and Dan Carter,30 or 31 is no age these days if your good enough 34or 5 is still
realistic these days.
Given the squad he picked,and the fact he has`nt draughted in the more experienced Locks Donnelly ,Eaton its a case of last man standing.Nonu must have REALLY upset someone,Barrett covering 10/12,Ellison everyone else.
Romano is a straight case of rotation thingk he would have started anyway,Crudon/SBW are a club combo that may work.Ben Smith and Gear are in to cover the kick /chase game.Ireland first test tried to surprise the AB`s by running at them,Better sides than Ireland have come up short trying that.In bad weather Ireland reverted to the Munster style dog fight create little but stop the other side doing so too.This is the least experienced AB team since France first test 2009[as opposed to a deliberately weakened one].The night before that match a French fan asked me on the old 606 site."Can we win Tomorrow" my answer "YES!!you have won 11 matches why not 12?"the rest is history.
By Sunday headlines could be NZ shock two firsts an Ireland win and a JWC Final loss.Baby Boks at home must be favourites as this is THE weakest Baby Blacks side to date.

The must be close to the most quick all blacks team named. All players very agility. They must already wave the white flag on win the close battle and decide to go haremscarem. If it work then will be spectacular.

My mind if that DC rested is a tactical idea and is the old story of the "hamstring" is not so true but not admit the change of plan to Ireland so pretend about injury.

Cruden is not the game as good game manager but he is more attacking and running like when DC was younger. So A Smith/Cruden/Ellison/Gear/ B Smith all running with the ball options and give up the "close and kick" game in favour to trust the ball in hand. Added to SBW and Dagg and you see there is more like Australian combinator with three fetching back row men.

My mind is if NZ can get enough ball then they will get a big score. But can they get the ball? Will the lineout functioning with new lock combinator? will Ireland close it down with the narrow game?

Should be some interesting.

red_stag wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Now before this tour I was calling for Cave,Tuohy etc. to get a chance which would seem to contradict my previous point but that was because Kidney had refused to try anyone new at lock or centre for so long I just wanted to see change as soon as possible.

I don't think that the likes of Dan Tuohy, Craig Gilroy, Peter O'Mahony would have been "blooding".

They would have simply been the best in their positions.

Whether you use the term 'blood' or not, it amounts to the same thing. Game time at top level. You do believe theres a step up yes? And so they need time to get accustomed with the higher standard?

You talk about best players being played. POM and Tuohy were only picked because Deccies hand was forced, not because they were best. And Gilroy has not been deemed 'best' by deccie even though the club season indicates so (along with Zebo).

What else do players have to do apart from play brilliantly all season (and better than the alternatives).

The think is players who are ultimatly shoes-ins for their country are rarely stand out performers in their first few caps. They need to be thrown in and below par performances suffered because you have faith in them based on the quality they have shown for their clubs.

Agree with those who are saying that this AB side could be more dangerous.

I think Carter being out actually lessons our chances. Carter actually was poor enough last week and there seemed to be a lack of fire and hunger about the ABs when we got stuck in.

This side looks a bit fresher and I think the guys come in will really have the fire in their bellies.

Its an interesting contrast between the two countries. NZ have no hesitation to bring new faces in, despite being the team with perhaps more to lose and being under more pressure to perform, whereas Kidney flies Paddy Wallace in rather than play Cave or Zebo.

That consertative, stick with what you know approach is the single biggest thing holding Irish rugby back imo.

Darren Cave has been wasted on this tour, Zebo has gone from the starting lineup, to the bench, to the stands .... Earls and BOD partnership discarded after one game. McFadden starting 3 tests on the right wing, Trimble not getting any gametime in his best postion. Gavin Duffy brought out and not used. Gilroy sitting at home. Fitzpatrick not used after the 1st test.

The managment is just so clueless and incompetent it defies belief at times.

Fair play to the players for fronting up because they've performed in spite of, and not because of the coaches. Les Kiss apart the others couldn't run an AIB team.

The attitude of 'you werent amazing in your debut so we will maybe give you another game next year' on the basis of one performance is certainly not an ideal way to treat a young prospect.

[quote]Just try and remember George Bernard Shaws old adage about wrestling with a pig[quote]

Clive you have to ask what Cave and Zebo will have got from this tour and whether the management are actually serious about developing the next generation of players.

Personally I think they are just winging it from game to game...every so often things click...but over the longer term there is a lack of consitancy and overall there is a gradual deteriation in the quality of the side as older players decline and the players coming through lack the experience, confidence and quality of the players they are replacing.

Thats for another day, but Kidney has made his bed with the selection, we simply have to get a result here.

No Rodders,

They arnt winging it. Its clear that the team has gotten more and more conservative through the three tests. The assignment initially was to use the form players. Then when that didnt go well, Deccie started fearing for his credibility and job so he abandoned his game plan for the test series.

It just so happens we are letting him away with it because we want a win too!

Sin é wrote:

MMC wrote:

Sin é wrote:Donncha Ryan has about 10 starts

I find that amazing. Just shows how such a good player can be held back so much when he's behind one of the greatest in his position.

He was a bit unlucky with injury (in that he was injured at the same time as POC was).

One thing about DOC - he has been virtually injury free for most his career. Jumping into freezing lakes must work!

I swam in the lake at Queenstown in the middle of a hot kiwi summer a few years and it was friggin freezin then, god knows what it's like in the middle of a south island winter. DOC must liathroidi of steel

Anyone else worried about our lack of physically in the backs? Wallace and Earls do get criticised for their defensive capabilities, unjustly so I feel, but there's no doubt that D'arcy and Trimble are more physical and robust than the above mentioned. They're more likely to go looking for confrontation.

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this point, or do they think it's even relevant?

I don’t think their physicality is an issue in defense. In attack they’re less likely to be able to break a tackle but I think Wallace’s distribution is better than Darcy’s and I’d expect us to be looking to find wingers in space rather than take the ball into contact and drive the legs.

No its a relevent point Gretgael.

I think Trimble added something last week, just by his physical presence and the defensive patterns worked really well with D'arcy in the 1st half.

Paddy Wallace is a very solid defender imo, deceptively strong with good tackling technique, but this is a big step up from anything he's played recently and he hasn't played with BOD fo a while.

So far we've kept SBW quiet but with him and Gear bursting through the middle we will be severly tested.

Out wide Earls is an agressive tackler but positionally he and McFadden aren't the best.

I don't think we can afford to play with as little ball as we did last week as i don't think our defence will be able to hold up as well with the players we have this week.

The only change I'm not too sure about is Messam. Maybe the fact it's at the Tron is a plus, and I'm sure cruden with sbw outside him will feel right at home in more ways than one. I agree though Thomson looked a bit fragile last week. Can't fault his commitment but I think he got bashed around too much and we need a player who can do the opposite: bash the opposition around. I think he'll do better with fresh legs against tired legs late in the second half.

Looking forward to this match. Good on ya Ireland for making this an enthralling series after the mismatch in the first match.

I don’t think their physicality is an issue in defense. In attack they’re less likely to be able to break a tackle but I think Wallace’s distribution is better than Darcy’s and I’d expect us to be looking to find wingers in space rather than take the ball into contact and drive the legs.

I'm not sure we'll use our wingers much this game, there's been no evidence of them being used in the last two games, so I think we'll stick with that trend.

No doubt Wallace has better skills than D'arcy, but I think D'arcy has more dog in him because his game is almost just to stop the opposition playing these days and he was great at that last week, where Paddy is a creative player.

I cant help but think Wallace could make more happen with Trimble on a wing. Whatever Wallace brings to the table in terms of distribution will be limited due to lack of prep time.

I honestly don't know how to call this one. Wait and see I guess. I've got a bad feeling though. I also think Wallace can do little right. If he plays below par, nobody will take into consideration how he was thrown in after a month off.

Just wish tomorrow would come, I've done enough chatting about this, time to get it done.

Rodders, to be honest, I would have Trimble and Earls on the wings. Trimble for his physically, but I'd like to see him come in field a bit more and look for work. Earls, for me, is a winger and changing him for Mcfadden we won't lose anything. I'm worried that Wallace said this time 5 days ago he was lying on a beach in Portugal and now he 's starting a test against the best team in the world, in their back garden, talk about a challenge!!!!

I'm not sure Mick..it was the agression and physicality in defence that really got to the ABs last week. Our line speed was superb and the hits were massive. In the moist conditions they were spilling the ball and getting frustrated.

I'm not sure we'll be able to replicate that this week, at least not quite.

We also don't want Wallace trucking into contact, which means going wide a bit more.... which isn't a great idea because it was the direct attacking up the middle that worked so well last week.

The attempted wide game,combined with the aimless kicking slaughtered us in the first test. What are Wallaces best attributes... distribution and Kicking.... so.....

We'll have to wait and see but I personally think we've gone backwards this week with the selection.

Can someone tell me why the next tour to NZ will be in 12 years?

Some of the best attacking stuff last week involved Trimble IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqJ-KxVMRPc&feature=relmfu

Check out 45 minutes in and 65 minutes in. (The video time, not the match clock)

I know Fergus did a decent job, but I just dont see how out of himself, Trimble, Zebo, and now Earls, he has been deemed to be a nailed on starter?

I too would have had Trimble and Earls.

I completely forgot about that absolutely phenomenal pass thrown by Trimble in that game. It was a bit of a "wow" moment.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I completely forgot about that absolutely phenomenal pass thrown by Trimble in that game. It was a bit of a "wow" moment.

I bet Sexton didnt know he was the dummy runner!