Lion Capt

by mowgli Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:20 pm

I think most people were in agreement that SW was the best man for the job but for me his star is on the wane for various reasons. Firstly I don't think it is certain Gatland will coach now, though who would replace him i don't know. I think this tour has shown that him taking a year off has the potential to stuff Wales right up. If he is HC then i expect SW to get the nod but right now I am not sure the lad is even in the team on merit but rather because he is Capt. Tipuric deserves his chance and SW's leadership, decision making and form are all questionable.

Having come that conclusion you start to consider alternatives and it's not a great pool of candidates.

I would love to see BOD have a 2nd crack at it as to be fair his first was a hatchet job.

Regardless of him being the skipper in 2009 i think POC would be a great selection as he woudl have to the respect of the entire camp.

other suggestions? of both coach and capt?

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:48 pm

If I'd been asked this 3 months ago I'd have said Warburton without doubt. However he hasn't had a great season and with the depth in the backrow, he isn't the shoe in he looked a few months ago.

Right now I'd say BOD, no question. Played a big role in Leinsters HEC win and has been in inspired form in NZ. If he can lead Ireland to a win tomorrow then he will be in a very strong position. Has unrivalled experience and is hugely respected in Australia.

There's a lot of rugby to be played between then and now though. People will emerge, get injured and fall away.

by offload Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:53 pm

I'm sorry but you've written some nonsense there. Very premature to be talking about Lions captains. Very premature to be dismissing SW after a couple of games following an injury. Certainly no evidence that Gatland won't lead the Lions. It's ridiculous to suggest there are no good alternatives for captain as there are plenty of strong leaders in British and Irish rugby. It also remains to be seen whether BOD or POC will even be in contention when the tour comes around.

Let's get through the AI's, another 6 Nations and a full domestic season and see who is still standing.

by ChequeredJersey Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:54 pm

Kelly Brown. It's a long shot but you heard it here first

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:57 pm

I'm not writing anyone off, what I'm saying is the outstanding candiates change from month to month and there is a lot of rugby to be played.

In my opinion, now today, I'd select BOD, but by 11am tomorrow I may feel different guinness

.

by offload Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:00 pm

Rodders I was referring to the OP.

By the way, if the tour was now, I'd pick BOD too.

by IanBru Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:01 pm

The Captain has to be a talisman whose place in the test XV is assured. None of the above fulfill both of those requirements.

To be honest, only Richie Gray is consistently picked for his position on the endless 'Lions XV' threads, and he is almost certainly too young.

by offload Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:01 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Kelly Brown. It's a long shot but you heard it here first

Get done the bookies Chequered, you'll get some great odds on that one. Smile

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:05 pm

offload wrote:Rodders I was referring to the OP.

By the way, if the tour was now, I'd pick BOD too.

Oops sorry... guinness

by mowgli Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:08 pm

Offload

Not sure that asking a question on a rugby forum about Capts and coaches for a lions tour less than a year before it starts, that discusses the well documented fall from grace of the man who almost every pundit would have mooted as good bet for skipper and the concern that Gatland, whose involvement was a shoo in but whose absence from the camp has directly affected Welsh performances, can be described as nonsense. Perhaps a little nonsensical to say that is premature but of course you are entitled to your opinion. Don't be sorry.
thumbsup

IMO the Lions skipper will not evolve from here on in but if you have an idea why not put it out there?

by **NeilyBroon** Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:30 pm

I actually had forgotten about Kelly Brown, if he has a good return next season and is made Scotland captain I can see this perhaps happening to be honest! He's an outstanding player with an excellent workrate, especially for Sarries

by Sin é Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:28 pm

Can't see anyone getting the captaincy of the Lions who hasn't been on a tour before. I also don't think who ever is selected has to be the best in their position as long as they are up there - providing leadership will give them an edge.

BOD talking about the Lions in yesterday's paper:

In South Africa in 2009 he also began to appreciate the true Lions’ ethos. “That gave me a flavour for what all the hoo-ha was about Lions’ tours. We did a lot of things wrong (in ’05), such as not rooming together,” which he believes should include the captain.

There was also player and management overload. “One hundred percent. For example, I don’t think I ever trained with Denis Hickie on the tour, certainly not after the first week in New Zealand. Irrespective of what happened injury-wise, there was minimal fun to be had, and that’s why, before ’09, I thought these Lions tours were going to be way better, as they’d been made out to be by all the Lions greats of the ’70s. You see all these guys talking about lifelong friendships and I thought: ‘I don’t have any of that and I’ve been on two of them.’”

He was back in the trenches in ’09, with Paul O’Connell assuming the captaincy, and with less pressure came more of an opportunity to understand what the Lions were about. “And I did that. And I had a great time.”

You’d imagine O’Connell maybe didn’t? “No, I would imagine not. It’s a very stressful environment being captain of a situation like that. Incredibly tough. Way more so than your national team, ’cos you’ve got help from guys, unless you’ve got guys who’ve been captains before and give a helping hand and take some of the responsibility away. And there was so little bitchiness on that (’09) tour. There was bitchiness in ’01, and in ’05 things went badly and staying on the tour was a massive error.”

Hence, when injured in the second Test in ’09, he was on the first available flight home.

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:32 pm

Sin old bean that is actually a very good point, it is quite rare for anyone to captain the Lions on their first tour.

Does anyone know the last person to do that was?

by Guest Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:50 pm

As an outside bet, Ryan Jones anyone? I know he's rarely started for Wales, and I know there are better regular 8's, 6's and locks... but I have an inklin he's about to really launch himself again.

POC most likely though imho, Warbs if he gets properly fit and back to top form (it's not like he's bad right now). Whichever of these two stands out at 6n's 2013 will get the nod.

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:53 pm

Yes I think Jones is a dark horse. He's had a fantastic season. But then if Gatland isn't selecting him for Wales?

AW Jones?

by Guest Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:01 pm

rodders wrote:But then if Gatland isn't selecting him for Wales?

Think with the Lions as already suggested, not necessarily best in position. With National Teams its hard not to pick best in position... if you know what I mean!

AW Jones?

Can't see AW touring tbh.

by mowgli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:03 pm

I thought Jones briefly but i just don't think he is aggressive enough and although i rate him as having come back from a long run of poor form he seemed to go off his game when skippering Wales.He is now a utility forward which makes him much more selectable and although i think he does a job and does provide leadership and experience I am not sure he is lions skipper material. As for never having been on tour and being skipper, Jonno replaced Dooley in 1993 and was then skipper in 1997 and 2001 but I can't recall anyone in recent history debuting as skipper so perhaps POC will follow Jonno and lead again. AWJ is an option ut to be honest he will be lucky to be selected at all with Gray, Lawes, Charteris, POC etc all in the running.

by Guest Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:08 pm

mowgli wrote:I thought Jones briefly but i just don't think he is aggressive enough

I think that is one area of his game that has actually improved. I do agree that the pressure of captaincy got to him, but 5 years more experience now.

by Sin é Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:09 pm

rodders wrote:Sin old bean that is actually a very good point, it is quite rare for anyone to captain the Lions on their first tour.

Does anyone know the last person to do that was?

Martin Johnson probably.

BOD & POC were both on tours previous to being made captains.

If looking at Welsh players, Mike Phillips seems to have been in his element on the last tour and a lot of the Irish lads speak highly of him (ROG & POC anyway).

ROB Kearney might be a good shout. Earls said he was great at helping him get his confidence back after his disasterous debut on the last tour. He seems to have got on well with the rest of the players - Ugo Monye fixed him up with his present girlfriend!

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:12 pm

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Sin old bean that is actually a very good point, it is quite rare for anyone to captain the Lions on their first tour.

Does anyone know the last person to do that was?

Martin Johnson probably.

BOD & POC were both on tours previous to being made captains.

If looking at Welsh players, Mike Phillips seems to have been in his element on the last tour and a lot of the Irish lads speak highly of him (ROG & POC anyway).

ROB Kearney might be a good shout. Earls said he was great at helping him get his confidence back after his disasterous debut on the last tour. He seems to have got on well with the rest of the players - Ugo Monye fixed him up with his present girlfriend!

johnny sexton might be a good shout Whistle

...

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:13 pm

Johnson was on the 1993 tour to NZ was he not?

Hastings captained on his second tour too.

Sorry I'm too young to go back further.... Smile

by Sin é Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:16 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Sin old bean that is actually a very good point, it is quite rare for anyone to captain the Lions on their first tour.

Does anyone know the last person to do that was?

Martin Johnson probably.

BOD & POC were both on tours previous to being made captains.

If looking at Welsh players, Mike Phillips seems to have been in his element on the last tour and a lot of the Irish lads speak highly of him (ROG & POC anyway).

ROB Kearney might be a good shout. Earls said he was great at helping him get his confidence back after his disasterous debut on the last tour. He seems to have got on well with the rest of the players - Ugo Monye fixed him up with his present girlfriend!

johnny sexton might be a good shout ...

I can't see him even going on tour - Gatland wouldn't be patient enough to deal with his on-field tantrams Smile

by LeinsterFan4life Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:18 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Sin old bean that is actually a very good point, it is quite rare for anyone to captain the Lions on their first tour.

Does anyone know the last person to do that was?

Martin Johnson probably.

BOD & POC were both on tours previous to being made captains.

If looking at Welsh players, Mike Phillips seems to have been in his element on the last tour and a lot of the Irish lads speak highly of him (ROG & POC anyway).

ROB Kearney might be a good shout. Earls said he was great at helping him get his confidence back after his disasterous debut on the last tour. He seems to have got on well with the rest of the players - Ugo Monye fixed him up with his present girlfriend!

johnny sexton might be a good shout ...

I can't see him even going on tour - Gatland wouldn't be patient enough to deal with his on-field tantrams

good lad

by mowgli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:20 pm

Yep Jonners replcaed Dooley whose dad died. Can't see Philipps being a skipper, Heaslip? Croft? Jamie Roberts? Kearney...not sure. I still think it will be SW,BOD or POC and most likely POC

by mowgli Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:21 pm

Sexton might not skipper but right now he would probably be my 1st choice 10

by Sin é Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:23 pm

rodders wrote:Johnson was on the 1993 tour to NZ was he not?

Hastings captained on his second tour too.

Sorry I'm too young to go back further....

Finlay Calder captained the 1989 (Aus) was on only one tour. Lions won that one.

Ciaran Fitz 1983 NZ (one tour) lost.

by **rodders** Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:26 pm

Good man Sin, I knew an auld fella like you would know guinness

....

by Sin é Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:29 pm

rodders wrote:Good man Sin, I knew an auld fella like you would know .... ....

Yea, its great an auld fellow like me can use goggle Very Happy

What are the youth of today coming to Shocked

by Feckless Rogue Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:30 pm

I think O'Connell is the best candidate.

by offload Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:32 am

I'm coming back to this thread after a break. To the OP, all I'll say is this. Whatever your opinion and some of what you have said I agree with, it is a bit rich to describe Warbuton's situation as a "fall from grace" ? He has payed two games following an injury when he has not been at his best. That's all.

Take a look at BOD's performance two weeks ago. Poor. Yet he bounced back last week and played really well.

by mowgli Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:42 am

Fair enough offload we'll have to disagree and that is fine

I think it is a huge fall from grace in the context of where he was before the french RWC game.

Look at his story; so good that he retires Nugget, made skipper and leads the Welsh to the verge of outright glory; is everyone's lions skipper 18 months out. Talked about as being as good as MCCaw and Pocock. Where is all that now?

Gets sent off in a RWC semi final for a debatably poor tackle, gets injured, returns to play in a vital test as skipper whilst obviously not match fit and in doing so keeps the player everyone wants to see at 7 get his chance on the bench. Then has such little grasp of his team that he lets RP kick a dolly back to the Aussies on the verge of yet more glory. Even my girlfriend knew Wlaes needed to keep the ball and she is from Milton Keynes!

I'm beginning to think he is an English sleeper.

I accept that SW is still class but for Wales recently he has been something of a liability.

by kingjohn7 Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:26 am

too peed to read all the posts( goy about half way through), but for me at the mo the best captains probably wouldnt be starters. so at the mo id go for rory best.

by flyhalffactory Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:41 am

[quote="offload"]I'm sorry but you've written some nonsense there. Very premature to be talking about Lions captains. Very premature to be dismissing SW after a couple of games following an injury. Certainly no evidence that Gatland won't lead the Lions. It's ridiculous to suggest there are no good alternatives for captain as there are plenty of strong leaders in British and Irish rugby. It also remains to be seen whether BOD or POC will even be in contention when the tour comes around.

Let's get through the AI's, another 6 Nations and a full domestic season and see who is still standing. [/quote

100%

by majesticimperialman Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:40 am

I have gone for A N OTHER.

Personly i dont think ( not sure ) that either POC, or BOD, will even get into the lions squad. and SAM as been rubbish so far on this summers tour.

So i say lets waite and see nearer the time who is playing the best rugby and who is best to be captain of the Lions.

by dragonbreath Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:27 am

On current form and depth of experience Ryan Jones anyone

I would give it to BOD if he maintains form. He was kind of robbed of his opportunity in NZ.

by slartibartfast Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:36 am

Ryan jones

by gowales Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:37 am

If he can keep his fitness up then BOD without a shadow of a doubt. I don't know if POC will make the first XV and i haven't been impressed by Warburton's leadership or form.

Someone else could make the grade, but with the Lions XV that's in my head BOD would be the perfect choice.

I don't think Ryan will make the first XV, he might be a be a squad player but even that's a push.

by **LondonTiger** Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:05 am

Ross Ford for me - though that would be harsh on Rory Best as he would be pushing Ford very hard for the starting hooker berth.

by mowgli Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:06 am

gowales wrote:If he can keep his fitness up then BOD without a shadow of a doubt. I don't know if POC will make the first XV and i haven't been impressed by Warburton's leadership or form.

Someone else could make the grade, but with the Lions XV that's in my head BOD would be the perfect choice.

I don't think Ryan will make the first XV, he might be a be a squad player but even that's a push.

Mmmm might have to rethink BOD

by Cadair Idris Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:44 am

Absolutely no need to pick a captain in advance of tour in my view, especially when it's not clear if a number of leading candidates will make the team. Why not break with tradition, pick the best squad, then the best team for the tests and pick the captain from there?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:49 am

Cadair Idris wrote:Absolutely no need to pick a captain in advance of tour in my view, especially when it's not clear if a number of leading candidates will make the team. Why not break with tradition, pick the best squad, then the best team for the tests and pick the captain from there?

Bceause the captain is required for the sponsors photo shoots

Bearing this in mind, Henson?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:50 am

Two words for you - Richie Gray

by robbo277 Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:00 am

Cadair Idris wrote:Absolutely no need to pick a captain in advance of tour in my view, especially when it's not clear if a number of leading candidates will make the team. Why not break with tradition, pick the best squad, then the best team for the tests and pick the captain from there?

I'd agree with this completely. You pick your captain so far out and he might not be the form man. Let's say O'Driscoll is picked as captain, what if Davies, Tuilagi and Roberts are all on better form during the tour? What if O'Connell is picked and Gray, Ryan, AWJ, Lawes or whoever is on better form? Warburton and any of O'Brien, Ferris, Heaslip, Brown, Rennie, Denton, Lydiate, Faletau, Robshaw, Croft, Wood etc are on better form?

I'm trying to think of my starting 15, and no-one (IMO) is guaranteed a starting spot. There's competition everywhere (which is a great thing), but it means that selecting a captain could be tying your hands too early.

by gowales Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:03 pm

mowgli wrote:
gowales wrote:If he can keep his fitness up then BOD without a shadow of a doubt. I don't know if POC will make the first XV and i haven't been impressed by Warburton's leadership or form.

Someone else could make the grade, but with the Lions XV that's in my head BOD would be the perfect choice.

I don't think Ryan will make the first XV, he might be a be a squad player but even that's a push.

Mmmm might have to rethink BOD

The game today doesn't change the fact that he's a class player and probably the best 13 in the NH

by Sin é Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:40 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Cadair Idris wrote:Absolutely no need to pick a captain in advance of tour in my view, especially when it's not clear if a number of leading candidates will make the team. Why not break with tradition, pick the best squad, then the best team for the tests and pick the captain from there?

I'd agree with this completely. You pick your captain so far out and he might not be the form man. Let's say O'Driscoll is picked as captain, what if Davies, Tuilagi and Roberts are all on better form during the tour? What if O'Connell is picked and Gray, Ryan, AWJ, Lawes or whoever is on better form? Warburton and any of O'Brien, Ferris, Heaslip, Brown, Rennie, Denton, Lydiate, Faletau, Robshaw, Croft, Wood etc are on better form?

I'm trying to think of my starting 15, and no-one (IMO) is guaranteed a starting spot. There's competition everywhere (which is a great thing), but it means that selecting a captain could be tying your hands too early.

Any player worthy of being captain will make sure his form is right.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:49 pm

the problem with form is you dont know until after the game has been played

by TJ1 Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:58 pm

The captain has to be a nailed on test starter and at this point there is not many of them let alone who also have the experience / temperament to captain.

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