Ireland Attack.

Clearly this is a weakness in the current irish team. It was frankly embarrassing to watch us get knocked further and further back so close to the welsh try line. It has already been said that if Ireland are far behind, they will find it very hard to get back into the game. This will kill us against better teams that are clinical with their chances in attack, if we do not have any way of generating points ourselves other than to force penalties.

Our tactical kicking game so far has been very good and for the most part it has been wonderfully executed, however we need to create more try scoring opportunities. We seemed to look much more dangerous when Eoin Reddan came on and quickened the service, and a lot of the substitutions generally did make an impact (not to sound too cliche) but whatever it was, the service at the breakdown was much quicker and players were taking the ball at pace. We need to do this for the full game and not just switch on at the end.

I am a big fan of Connor Murray, but there is a time and a place for marshalling the forwards into position, or preparing for a good box kick, and a time to just get the ball out quick and catch the opposition defence off guard. With the speed of service currently the opposition has far too much time to get into position and adjust to our attack. Murray needs to improve here, big time. On the occasions where we inevitably do have slow ball, we need options who can create space with very little themselves, or just power through the gain line.

It will be interesting to hear people's thoughts on how this can be achieved, what personnel changes should be made (if any) or even if people do not think it is a weakness at all and just a knee jerk reaction to the loss.

I agree it's definitely a weakness - look back over Ireland's season and the tries we have scored :

South Africa - Ruddock from a maul, Bowe from a kick
Australia - Zebo from a kick, Bowe intercept
Georgia -  we only scored once Georgia were worn out.
Italy - Murray on the fringes, & for O Donnell's try no real space was created, Italy stood off, and were down to 14 men.
France - none
England - Henshaw off a kick.

I think if we want to play a kick chase orientated game, the back line we currently play full of players who can play full back is the way to go. For a running game, we need a spark.

If I was coach, and a fearless man, I would move Payne to 15 and look at trying to develop Gary Ringrose for the world cup. South Africa did it successfully with Pollard when they badly needed a catalyst. Both Ringrose and Pollard played in the same junior world cup, and were both nominated for player of the tournament. I don't see it as an outrageous decision, but think it's an un-Irish one that is basically never going to happen.

kunu wrote:I agree it's definitely a weakness - look back over Ireland's season and the tries we have scored :

South Africa - Ruddock from a maul, Bowe from a kick
Australia - Zebo from a kick, Bowe intercept
Georgia -  we only scored once Georgia were worn out.
Italy - Murray on the fringes, & for O Donnell's try no real space was created, Italy stood off, and were down to 14 men.
France - none
England - Henshaw off a kick.

I think if we want to play a kick chase orientated game, the back line we currently play full of players who can play full back is the way to go. For a running game, we need a spark.

If I was coach, and a fearless man, I would move Payne to 15 and look at trying to develop Gary Ringrose for the world cup. South Africa did it successfully with Pollard when they badly needed a catalyst. Both Ringrose and Pollard played in the same junior world cup, and were both nominated for player of the tournament. I don't see it as an outrageous decision, but think it's an un-Irish one that is basically never going to happen.

Wait a second, were you not one of the people that slated me for saying this 5 weeks ago?

I don't think we have any reason to rush Ringrose into the setup when we already have an abundance of talented centres. I think that would be absolutely mad to ignore the options we already have, such as Olding/McCloskey/Marshall/Fitz/Earls. Ringrose would be miles down the pecking order.

However I would like to see more creativity in the midfield, and do think it needs looked at eventually.

No sir! I have been saying I prefer Payne at 15 for a while, also I think Kearns needs a kick up the arse. What I said last week was I wouldn't replace him with Earls or Cave, and that he had a decent game v England- which he did.

kunu wrote:No sir! I have been saying I prefer Payne at 15 for a while, also I think Kearns needs a kick up the arse. What I said last week was I wouldn't replace him with Earls or Cave, and that he had a decent game v England- which he did.

Ok, fair enough. I copped a lot for suggesting that so its good to see others think that.

I still think that Payne could be a great 13 for Ireland but he must play there for regularly for Ulster.

If Payne plays at 13, then drop Henshaw and bring in an Ulster 12 as well. There would be familiarity (sort of, depending on how often Payne plays 13) and also players playing in their position. I genuinely think Henshaw is wasted at 12 and it is frustrating to see him operating with such little space there.

I would rather see Henshaw as the starting 13, personally. But it is largely irrelevant for the time being as the best options at 12 are either injured or banned..

Honestly I'm not totally convinced by the current centres the provinces have had on show. Fitz just isn't a centre in my book - he never looks like he's got time on the ball, falls over on his own accord often, and he isn't great at timing his runs. His passing game is hit and miss. Overall I'd prefer him on the wing, and don't think he is better there than our current starters.

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

McCloskey looks good, so could be an option. Olding too.

What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

Why Rory? Henshaw has shown that he is more than capable at 12 and is actually playing well there.

For me, Henshaw 12 - Earls 13 or Olding 12 - Henshaw 13.

Sadly, for all the talent he has, Payne for me is best utilized as a cover for several positions from off the bench.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

I'd like to see Reddan get a start just to find out if he can do what he did today from the start.We will probably have to wait until the WC warmups for that however.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Why Rory? Henshaw has shown that he is more than capable at 12 and is actually playing well there.

For me, Henshaw 12 - Earls 13 or Olding 12 - Henshaw 13.

Sadly, for all the talent he has, Payne for me is best utilized as a cover for several positions from off the bench.

If you have watched Henshaw play at 13 or fullback with more space, you will know that he is a very silky runner with good awareness of players outside of him. It seems he is being used as a battering ram simply because of his size. He is wasted here, and I want to see players utilised properly. Yes, he is doing his job admirably, but if you want a player that can do this even better and who is primarily used for this, pick Stuart McCloskey. Otherwise, let Henshaw play where he is best.

I know you want to see both Henshaw and Earls play in the same team, but I am a big fan of square pegs in square holes, and I do not like reshuffling for the sake of it. Earls will have to fight for the jersey, and I do not think we are ever going to see a Henshaw-Earls combination. Possibly for one of the easier world cup pool matches.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

I'd like to see Reddan get a start just to find out if he can do what he did today from the start.We will probably have to wait until the WC warmups for that however.

Yes, I would be keen to see that as well. I know there are other factors involved other than a simple swap at scrum half, but it was quite a huge difference when Reddan came on and we need to find out how we can get that sort of service consistently. I think Healy/Cronin/Henderson helped a lot as well to be honest.

I have not seen the game yet but it seems odd you go from Murray being the best SH in the NH in the morning to 2nd choice behind Reddan a few hours later

I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

I'd like to see Reddan get a start just to find out if he can do what he did today from the start.We will probably have to wait until the WC warmups for that however.

Yes, I would be keen to see that as well. I know there are other factors involved other than a simple swap at scrum half, but it was quite a huge difference when Reddan came on and we need to find out how we can get that sort of service consistently. I think Healy/Cronin/Henderson helped a lot as well to be honest.

Henderson was awesome,he's another I'd like to see start against a decent side just to see if he can do it when the opposition are fresh.He has serious potential and could be one of the greats,I hate to hype him up like that but he just keeps improving every time I see him and has added real aggression to his game since coming back from injury.

kunu wrote:I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Yeah I'd just like to see it as he has only one start under Schmidt and that was the mess of a game v Oz where everyone was awful.It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his Leinster form under Schmidt and if he can then I'd have great confidence that Schmidt could get Murray up to that level in time for the World Cup as Ireland will effectively become a club side in the build up this year.He will have the time to work with the players and improve their skills in a way he just can't do right now.

lostinwales wrote:I have not seen the game yet but it seems odd you go from Murray being the best SH in the NH in the morning to 2nd choice behind Reddan a few hours later

I think his game management is world class, but his service needs to quicken up. He is practically faultless in every other facet of play, and he actually has a fantastic passing game. At the minute though this is a weakness that needs serious attention.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

kunu wrote:I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Yeah I'd just like to see it as he has only one start under Schmidt and that was the mess of a game v Oz where everyone was awful.It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his Leinster form under Schmidt and if he can then I'd have great confidence that Schmidt could get Murray up to that level in time for the World Cup as Ireland will effectively become a club side in the build up this year.He will have the time to work with the players and improve their skills in a way he just can't do right now.

Agreed - something I'm looking forward to

I posted something similar on the match thread, but as a former SH, it is a pet peeve of mine that I see a lot, when a 9 comes off the bench and adds tempo to the game that he is called to start next week. It is so much easier for a 9 to do this coming off the bench than for a 9 starting! Massively so. Connor Murray has been top class pretty much since the Lions tour and is integral to the way Ireland have been playing, whilst Reddan has proven to be nothing more than average at International level. One bright cameo against a tiring Welsh team, when Ireland are striving to get back in the game shouldn't change anything. Murray is still Ireland's best nine, and fairly comfortably too.

JDizzle wrote:I posted something similar on the match thread, but as a former SH, it is a pet peeve of mine that I see a lot, when a 9 comes off the bench and adds tempo to the game that he is called to start next week. It is so much easier for a 9 to do this coming off the bench than for a 9 starting! Massively so. Connor Murray has been top class pretty much since the Lions tour and is integral to the way Ireland have been playing, whilst Reddan has proven to be nothing more than average at International level. One bright cameo against a tiring Welsh team, when Ireland are striving to get back in the game shouldn't change anything. Murray is still Ireland's best nine, and fairly comfortably too.

I don't think anybody would dispute that,I would just like a look to see whether in this one facet of scrum half play Reddan can do a better job.If he can then I would be encouraged as I believe Schmidt can work with Murray to get him up to that level in that one facet.Overall Murray is a far better player obviously and will remain undisputed first choice.

JDizzle wrote:I posted something similar on the match thread, but as a former SH, it is a pet peeve of mine that I see a lot, when a 9 comes off the bench and adds tempo to the game that he is called to start next week. It is so much easier for a 9 to do this coming off the bench than for a 9 starting! Massively so. Connor Murray has been top class pretty much since the Lions tour and is integral to the way Ireland have been playing, whilst Reddan has proven to be nothing more than average at International level. One bright cameo against a tiring Welsh team, when Ireland are striving to get back in the game shouldn't change anything. Murray is still Ireland's best nine, and fairly comfortably too.

I agree with this, and I genuinely believe that Murray is one of the best around, however would you not agree that Murray does seem to spend an awful lot of time marshalling his forwards into position, rather than just shipping the ball out wide as quick as possible? There is a time for that, no doubt, but there is a time to just get that ball out quickly. Reddan does this rather consistently for Leinster, it is one of his strengths.

Which brings me onto my next point, is this a tactical decision made by the coaching team? A more tight and organised approach by Murray, followed by the quicker service by Reddan to close the game?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

I'd like to see Reddan get a start just to find out if he can do what he did today from the start.We will probably have to wait until the WC warmups for that however.

Yes, I would be keen to see that as well. I know there are other factors involved other than a simple swap at scrum half, but it was quite a huge difference when Reddan came on and we need to find out how we can get that sort of service consistently. I think Healy/Cronin/Henderson helped a lot as well to be honest.

Murphy came on for Heaslip when Reddan came on. That would have made a difference.

None of the backrow had particularly good games and I don't think SOB or Heislip really deserved to start. Both Murphy & TOD played really well against England and the Welsh chop SOB down all day long.

Sexton had a really off day as well which would have put a lot more pressure on Murray. Reddan isn't the answer. Welsh teams usually eat him alive. They were probably a bit tired when he came on.

kunu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

kunu wrote:I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Yeah I'd just like to see it as he has only one start under Schmidt and that was the mess of a game v Oz where everyone was awful.It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his Leinster form under Schmidt and if he can then I'd have great confidence that Schmidt could get Murray up to that level in time for the World Cup as Ireland will effectively become a club side in the build up this year.He will have the time to work with the players and improve their skills in a way he just can't do right now.

Agreed - something I'm looking forward to

Yes but isn't it too late for the World Cup? Criticism of Ireland's lack of any genuine attack had been ignored largely because of their successes. The dependence on the tactical kicking game seems to have run its course, and if there's one thing that is difficult to establish in a short timeframe is an attack strategy using largely the same players.

It suggests Schmidt had been short sighted in not widening his attack options to include ball in hand. Mind you, haven't seen the game is we don't get it till later today but the comments and match reports suggest Ireland's strategy has been analysed and stripped down by Wales, and Schmidt has more work to do. It's the waiting this long to do anything that should concern. Narrow strategies never last forever.

However, will wait for the game...

I'd say I've watched about 90% of Leinster's games over the past 5 years and so have a fairly good handle on Reddan's style - he certainly has a reputation as a quick scrum half but I'm not sure that's totally accurate. To be blunt, he has two types of games - 1) When he's on form he's in quick mode, sometimes too quick and doesn't look where he's going/passing, or who's even outside him when he goes there. Other times it works out and Leinster do well - but the last time this happened was probably the Glasgow Rabo final, the Northampton game in Franklins Gardens 2013 also comes to mind.

2) He can be lethargic on the pitch, and his awareness goes through the floor. Then we start seeing him not noticing the ball being available in rucks and just making a general hames of the situation. Much worse than what Murray offered today.

Having said all that, BOD really rates him - But points to his sweeping in defence as his stand-out attribute.

Taylorman wrote:

kunu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

kunu wrote:I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Yeah I'd just like to see it as he has only one start under Schmidt and that was the mess of a game v Oz where everyone was awful.It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his Leinster form under Schmidt and if he can then I'd have great confidence that Schmidt could get Murray up to that level in time for the World Cup as Ireland will effectively become a club side in the build up this year.He will have the time to work with the players and improve their skills in a way he just can't do right now.

Agreed - something I'm looking forward to

Yes but isn't it too late for the World Cup? Criticism of Ireland's lack of any genuine attack had been ignored largely because of their successes. The dependence on the tactical kicking game seems to have run its course, and if there's one thing that is difficult to establish in a short timeframe is an attack strategy using largely the same players.

It suggests Schmidt had been short sighted in not widening his attack options to include ball in hand. Mind you, haven't seen the game is we don't get it till later today but the comments and match reports suggest Ireland's strategy has been analysed and stripped down by Wales, and Schmidt has more work to do. It's the waiting this long to do anything that should concern. Narrow strategies never last forever.

However, will wait for the game...

He has 2 months before the WC to prepare the team,that's plent of time considering he is working with the most talented players we have.Schmidt hasn't been short sighted,he's been building a framework of consistency ,the hope is that with the solid foundations in place he can build on them.

If it is too late then that's not really his fault,he had a lot of work to do as we were at a very low base when he took over and he also had to deal with the disruption of Plumtree unexpectedly leaving after only a year.The longer Schmidt is in control the better this team will get and the WC should really show his talent as it's the only time a NH coach gets control of his team and is able to work with them for an extended period of time.

kunu wrote:I'd say I've watched about 90% of Leinster's games over the past 5 years and so have a fairly good handle on Reddan's style - he certainly has a reputation as a quick scrum half but I'm not sure that's totally accurate. To be blunt, he has two types of games - 1) When he's on form he's in quick mode, sometimes too quick and doesn't look where he's going/passing, or who's even outside him when he goes there. Other times it works out and Leinster do well - but the last time this happened was probably the Glasgow Rabo final, the Northampton game in Franklins Gardens 2013 also comes to mind.  

2) He can be lethargic on the pitch, and his awareness goes through the floor. Then we start seeing him not noticing the ball being available in rucks and just making a general hames of the situation. Much worse than what Murray offered today.

Having said all that, BOD really rates him - But points to his sweeping in defence as his stand-out attribute.

BOD didn't say that - what he said is that Murray is the best defensive scrumhalf in the world.

Many would rate his kicking game very highly (i.e., crossfield kick for Henshaw's try v England - he didn't kick today).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

JDizzle wrote:I posted something similar on the match thread, but as a former SH, it is a pet peeve of mine that I see a lot, when a 9 comes off the bench and adds tempo to the game that he is called to start next week. It is so much easier for a 9 to do this coming off the bench than for a 9 starting! Massively so. Connor Murray has been top class pretty much since the Lions tour and is integral to the way Ireland have been playing, whilst Reddan has proven to be nothing more than average at International level. One bright cameo against a tiring Welsh team, when Ireland are striving to get back in the game shouldn't change anything. Murray is still Ireland's best nine, and fairly comfortably too.

I agree with this, and I genuinely believe that Murray is one of the best around, however would you not agree that Murray does seem to spend an awful lot of time marshalling his forwards into position, rather than just shipping the ball out wide as quick as possible? There is a time for that, no doubt, but there is a time to just get that ball out quickly. Reddan does this rather consistently for Leinster, it is one of his strengths.

Which brings me onto my next point, is this a tactical decision made by the coaching team? A more tight and organised approach by Murray, followed by the quicker service by Reddan to close the game?

I would imagine it is a tactical decision by the coaching staff. We've seen the same with Webb in the Welsh team. People asking why he doesn't play like he does for the Ospreys for Wales, and it has to be a tactical decision. There just won't be the same number of gaps at International level that there are at regional. It is more of a chess match, where you have to prod and poke your opponent, and then make sure you take your chance when it presents.

There is no benefit to just winging the ball away from the ruck as quick as possible from minute one, it'll just lead to mistakes, which given the stiffling nature of international defences are where a lot of tries come from, is exactly not what you want. Whereas when Reddan came on, Ireland were down and had to throw caution to the wind so it was a lot easier for fresh legs to come on and speed the game up. I don't think Murray had his best game today, but wasn't it Reddan on when Ireland had their only obvious huge overlap under the posts and Healy knocked on into the try area? Basically, what I am trying to say, is the most important part of playing nine is your decision making and vision. Knowing when to marshall and when to get it gone sharply. And, for me, Murray is comfortably Ireland's best nine.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

I'd like to see Reddan get a start just to find out if he can do what he did today from the start.We will probably have to wait until the WC warmups for that however.

Yes, I would be keen to see that as well. I know there are other factors involved other than a simple swap at scrum half, but it was quite a huge difference when Reddan came on and we need to find out how we can get that sort of service consistently. I think Healy/Cronin/Henderson helped a lot as well to be honest.

Murphy came on for Heaslip when Reddan came on. That would have made a difference.

None of the backrow had particularly good games and I don't think SOB or Heislip really deserved to start. Both Murphy & TOD played really well against England and the Welsh chop SOB down all day long.

Sexton had a really off day as well which would have put a lot more pressure on Murray. Reddan isn't the answer. Welsh teams usually eat him alive. They were probably a bit tired when he came on.

You have ignored POM in your analysis here. What are your thoughts on his performance this year in the 6 nations?

JDizzle wrote:
There is no benefit to just winging the ball away from the ruck as quick as possible from minute one, it'll just lead to mistakes, which given the stiffling nature of international defences are where a lot of tries come from, is exactly not what you want. Whereas when Reddan came on, Ireland were down and had to throw caution to the wind so it was a lot easier for fresh legs to come on and speed the game up. I don't think Murray had his best game today, but wasn't it Reddan on when Ireland had their only obvious huge overlap under the posts and Healy knocked on into the try area? Basically, what I am trying to say, is the most important part of playing nine is your decision making and vision. Knowing when to marshall and when to get it gone sharply. And, for me, Murray is comfortably Ireland's best nine.

I completely agree that there is a time and a place, that is my point, but we haven't seen quick ball at all this 6 nations, apart from the closing moments of today's game. There is a time for everything, and we need to see more pressure put on the opposition defence, with quick ball being recycled to generate momentum. It is all a bit too slow for me.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

kunu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

kunu wrote:I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Yeah I'd just like to see it as he has only one start under Schmidt and that was the mess of a game v Oz where everyone was awful.It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his Leinster form under Schmidt and if he can then I'd have great confidence that Schmidt could get Murray up to that level in time for the World Cup as Ireland will effectively become a club side in the build up this year.He will have the time to work with the players and improve their skills in a way he just can't do right now.

Agreed - something I'm looking forward to

Yes but isn't it too late for the World Cup? Criticism of Ireland's lack of any genuine attack had been ignored largely because of their successes. The dependence on the tactical kicking game seems to have run its course, and if there's one thing that is difficult to establish in a short timeframe is an attack strategy using largely the same players.

It suggests Schmidt had been short sighted in not widening his attack options to include ball in hand. Mind you, haven't seen the game is we don't get it till later today but the comments and match reports suggest Ireland's strategy has been analysed and stripped down by Wales, and Schmidt has more work to do. It's the waiting this long to do anything that should concern. Narrow strategies never last forever.

However, will wait for the game...

He has 2 months before the WC to prepare the team,that's plent of time considering he is working with the most talented players we have.Schmidt hasn't been short sighted,he's been building a framework of consistency ,the hope is that with the solid foundations in place he can build on them.

If it is too late then that's not really his fault,he had a lot of work to do as we were at a very low base when he took over and he also had to deal with the disruption of Plumtree unexpectedly leaving after only a year.The longer Schmidt is in control the better this team will get and the WC should really show his talent as it's the only time a NH coach gets control of his team and is able to work with them for an extended period of time.

He's also got a core group of players (Healy, Heaslip, SOB, Toner, Ross, Sexton, Kearney) that have played under him successfully implementing a completely different type of game at Leinster. As others have said, and his interviews suggest, he clearly doesn't think that a running game is the best option at test level. Maybe this game will force him to reconsider, although I doubt he'll change anything too drastically before the tournament.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

kunu wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

kunu wrote:I don't know if Reddan is the answer. He has sped up many a game from the bench, only to be decidedly average upon his next start. I think Murray will learn from this game, and is good enough to improve for next week. So I'd start him.

I'd like to see Healy start, but would keep Best. Cronin's really fast, but Best is a far better link player and should work well in a Schmidt all-out running plan, like Strauss used to do. Remember Best and Healy's interplay before Best's try v NZ - class stuff. Cronin can make some nice breaks (which I suppose we need) but tends to screw up the final pass, and is worse in the set piece.

Henderson in at 6, POM at 7 and SOB at 8 might be a decent experiment.

Yeah I'd just like to see it as he has only one start under Schmidt and that was the mess of a game v Oz where everyone was awful.It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his Leinster form under Schmidt and if he can then I'd have great confidence that Schmidt could get Murray up to that level in time for the World Cup as Ireland will effectively become a club side in the build up this year.He will have the time to work with the players and improve their skills in a way he just can't do right now.

Agreed - something I'm looking forward to

Yes but isn't it too late for the World Cup? Criticism of Ireland's lack of any genuine attack had been ignored largely because of their successes. The dependence on the tactical kicking game seems to have run its course, and if there's one thing that is difficult to establish in a short timeframe is an attack strategy using largely the same players.

It suggests Schmidt had been short sighted in not widening his attack options to include ball in hand. Mind you, haven't seen the game is we don't get it till later today but the comments and match reports suggest Ireland's strategy has been analysed and stripped down by Wales, and Schmidt has more work to do. It's the waiting this long to do anything that should concern. Narrow strategies never last forever.

However, will wait for the game...

He has 2 months before the WC to prepare the team,that's plent of time considering he is working with the most talented players we have.Schmidt hasn't been short sighted,he's been building a framework of consistency ,the hope is that with the solid foundations in place he can build on them.

If it is too late then that's not really his fault,he had a lot of work to do as we were at a very low base when he took over and he also had to deal with the disruption of Plumtree unexpectedly leaving after only a year.The longer Schmidt is in control the better this team will get and the WC should really show his talent as it's the only time a NH coach gets control of his team and is able to work with them for an extended period of time.

With respect two months is not enough time to implement a new attack strategy that is capable of providing Ireland an alternative to beating top 3 or 4 sides. Was just reading a post Biltong posted warning of exactly this scenario after the SA win. I think Schmidt has over focussed on one trick and that has now come undone.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What can be changed now and more importantly is the service at the breakdown. Would it be better to see Reddan start against Scotland if this game is going to come down to points difference? Possibly starting Healy, Cronin and Henderson as well.

I'd like to see Reddan get a start just to find out if he can do what he did today from the start.We will probably have to wait until the WC warmups for that however.

Yes, I would be keen to see that as well. I know there are other factors involved other than a simple swap at scrum half, but it was quite a huge difference when Reddan came on and we need to find out how we can get that sort of service consistently. I think Healy/Cronin/Henderson helped a lot as well to be honest.

Murphy came on for Heaslip when Reddan came on. That would have made a difference.

None of the backrow had particularly good games and I don't think SOB or Heislip really deserved to start. Both Murphy & TOD played really well against England and the Welsh chop SOB down all day long.

Sexton had a really off day as well which would have put a lot more pressure on Murray. Reddan isn't the answer. Welsh teams usually eat him alive. They were probably a bit tired when he came on.

You have ignored POM in your analysis here. What are your thoughts on his performance this year in the 6 nations?

I didn't ignore POM - I said none of the backrow played well today and POM had a very poor day (but not helped by 2/3rs of his backrow not really being match fit). Heislip could not be fit. And SOB has not been great. At least POM is fit and that is why I've included him (and the backrow was good with TOD & Murphy v England).

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:I'd say I've watched about 90% of Leinster's games over the past 5 years and so have a fairly good handle on Reddan's style - he certainly has a reputation as a quick scrum half but I'm not sure that's totally accurate. To be blunt, he has two types of games - 1) When he's on form he's in quick mode, sometimes too quick and doesn't look where he's going/passing, or who's even outside him when he goes there. Other times it works out and Leinster do well - but the last time this happened was probably the Glasgow Rabo final, the Northampton game in Franklins Gardens 2013 also comes to mind.  

2) He can be lethargic on the pitch, and his awareness goes through the floor. Then we start seeing him not noticing the ball being available in rucks and just making a general hames of the situation. Much worse than what Murray offered today.

Having said all that, BOD really rates him - But points to his sweeping in defence as his stand-out attribute.

BOD didn't say that - what he said is that Murray is the best defensive scrumhalf in the world.

Many would rate his kicking game very highly (i.e., crossfield kick for Henshaw's try v England - he didn't kick today).

He did say that, he was talking about Reddan on BT Sport before a Champions cup game if memory serves.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:I'd say I've watched about 90% of Leinster's games over the past 5 years and so have a fairly good handle on Reddan's style - he certainly has a reputation as a quick scrum half but I'm not sure that's totally accurate. To be blunt, he has two types of games - 1) When he's on form he's in quick mode, sometimes too quick and doesn't look where he's going/passing, or who's even outside him when he goes there. Other times it works out and Leinster do well - but the last time this happened was probably the Glasgow Rabo final, the Northampton game in Franklins Gardens 2013 also comes to mind.  

2) He can be lethargic on the pitch, and his awareness goes through the floor. Then we start seeing him not noticing the ball being available in rucks and just making a general hames of the situation. Much worse than what Murray offered today.

Having said all that, BOD really rates him - But points to his sweeping in defence as his stand-out attribute.

BOD didn't say that - what he said is that Murray is the best defensive scrumhalf in the world.

Many would rate his kicking game very highly (i.e., crossfield kick for Henshaw's try v England - he didn't kick today).

He did say that, he was talking about Reddan on BT Sport before a Champions cup game if memory serves.

Are you sure he wasn't talking about Boss? I would not rate Reddan defensively. He made the comment about Murray being the best defensive scrumhalf in the world on Newstalk last week / or week before maybe.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

JDizzle wrote:
There is no benefit to just winging the ball away from the ruck as quick as possible from minute one, it'll just lead to mistakes, which given the stiffling nature of international defences are where a lot of tries come from, is exactly not what you want. Whereas when Reddan came on, Ireland were down and had to throw caution to the wind so it was a lot easier for fresh legs to come on and speed the game up. I don't think Murray had his best game today, but wasn't it Reddan on when Ireland had their only obvious huge overlap under the posts and Healy knocked on into the try area? Basically, what I am trying to say, is the most important part of playing nine is your decision making and vision. Knowing when to marshall and when to get it gone sharply. And, for me, Murray is comfortably Ireland's best nine.

I completely agree that there is a time and a place, that is my point, but we haven't seen quick ball at all this 6 nations, apart from the closing moments of today's game. There is a time for everything, and we need to see more pressure put on the opposition defence, with quick ball being recycled to generate momentum. It is all a bit too slow for me.

All a bit chicken and egg there though, it's easier for a nine to supply quick ball when you get over the gainline, and it's easier to get over the gainline when you are getting quick ball.

O'Connell is the only Irish player to make two decent breaks that I can really remember, and that has to be a bigger concern than Murray's service. To be honest, I think Wales's line speed had a lot to do with it and you have to give them an awful lot of credit. No matter how 1-dimensional your attack is, to keep that physicality, aggression and discipline up for 30 phases is outstanding. And even at the end of that series of play, Ireland ended up winning the penalty with sheer persistance and discipline themselves.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:I'd say I've watched about 90% of Leinster's games over the past 5 years and so have a fairly good handle on Reddan's style - he certainly has a reputation as a quick scrum half but I'm not sure that's totally accurate. To be blunt, he has two types of games - 1) When he's on form he's in quick mode, sometimes too quick and doesn't look where he's going/passing, or who's even outside him when he goes there. Other times it works out and Leinster do well - but the last time this happened was probably the Glasgow Rabo final, the Northampton game in Franklins Gardens 2013 also comes to mind.  

2) He can be lethargic on the pitch, and his awareness goes through the floor. Then we start seeing him not noticing the ball being available in rucks and just making a general hames of the situation. Much worse than what Murray offered today.

Having said all that, BOD really rates him - But points to his sweeping in defence as his stand-out attribute.

BOD didn't say that - what he said is that Murray is the best defensive scrumhalf in the world.

Many would rate his kicking game very highly (i.e., crossfield kick for Henshaw's try v England - he didn't kick today).

He did say that, he was talking about Reddan on BT Sport before a Champions cup game if memory serves.

Are you sure he wasn't talking about Boss? I would not rate Reddan defensively. He made the comment about Murray being the best defensive scrumhalf in the world on Newstalk last week / or week before maybe.

Positive - that was the whole point of his comments. He was pointing out what's good about Reddan that goes unnoticed etc.

Also it wasn't his defence, but his sweeping positioning that he highlighted

Some good points there, especially regarding POC making the only real line breaks, something he is hardly renowned for. As I said above, Healy, Cronin and Henderson all made a telling contribution in that department when they came on.

So do they come into the team for the Scotland game? Surely changes must be made if we hope to win on points difference?

I'm not sure the discussion on Ireland's attack should focus on the midfield. Ireland missed a couple of chances today because the half-backs didn't make good decisions, yet that somehow is the midfield's problem?

Why did the half backs make poor decisions? Pressure mostly and that from an ongoing mediocrity at the breakdown. Ireland won't score tries if they can't get quick ball irrespective of who occupies the 12 and 13 shirts. I'm not at all convinced that SOB and POM are in any way compatible in the same backrow, notwithstanding SOB's return from injury.

The Great Aukster wrote:I'm not sure the discussion on Ireland's attack should focus on the midfield. Ireland missed a couple of chances today because the half-backs didn't make good decisions, yet that somehow is the midfield's problem?

Why did the half backs make poor decisions? Pressure mostly and that from an ongoing mediocrity at the breakdown. Ireland won't score tries if they can't get quick ball irrespective of who occupies the 12 and 13 shirts. I'm not at all convinced that SOB and POM are in any way compatible in the same backrow, notwithstanding SOB's return from injury.

I don't think that the focus is on the midfield, but it is certainly worth considering as a factor. Who would you drop/bring in to the back row then? I was particularly disappointed with POM with ball in hand. He tried to go run sideways at times when sticking the head down and driving was the right option.

The Great Aukster wrote:I'm not sure the discussion on Ireland's attack should focus on the midfield. Ireland missed a couple of chances today because the half-backs didn't make good decisions, yet that somehow is the midfield's problem?

Why did the half backs make poor decisions? Pressure mostly and that from an ongoing mediocrity at the breakdown. Ireland won't score tries if they can't get quick ball irrespective of who occupies the 12 and 13 shirts. I'm not at all convinced that SOB and POM are in any way compatible in the same backrow, notwithstanding SOB's return from injury.

Why do you think they're not compatible? If you look at Ireland's total metres made this 6 nations (prior to today's game) they were second last, ahead of only Italy. Our breakdown stats are consistently good however, can't remember the numbers but against England we really did a job.

Ireland have won 483 rucks this competition, and lost 13 - that's a 97% success rate and the best in the competition. England are second with 94%.

I know ruck success doesn't translate directly into quick ball, but Ireland are clearly adept in the area so I wouldn't go placing the blame on the back row for our season of blunt attacking.

Most the metres gained by Ireland are through kicking.

I don't think POM & SOB play well together. POM is better with a TOD or a Henry in the backrow. SOB is better with a Ferris or Ruddock (though I don't think SOB is really back to his best yet).

The thread name should be changed to 'Ireland Attack???' it would be more accurate.

in terms of the cameos today if you want reddan to start then we should start Madigan (just to see as someone said in relation to reddan) given Madigan injected some momentum as well. Re the backrow heaslip was definitely not fully fit...and there must have been doubts about SOB and Sexton

Sin é wrote:Most the metres gained by Ireland are through kicking.

I don't think POM & SOB play well together. POM is better with a TOD or a Henry in the backrow. SOB is better with a Ferris or Ruddock (though I don't think SOB is really back to his best yet).

Well then we're making negative metres with the ball in hand, the figure is low enough as it is.

kunu wrote:Ireland have won 483 rucks this competition, and lost 13 - that's a 97% success rate and the best in the competition. England are second with 94%.

I know ruck success doesn't translate directly into quick ball, but Ireland are clearly adept in the area so I wouldn't go placing the blame on the back row for our season of blunt attacking.

I agree. Ireland's forwards are fine. They get plenty of quick ball. The Irish half backs kick it all away. Is that a problem with Sexton or Schmidt? Probably a combination. Schmidt knows that Sexton is a limited player who is great at one aspect of play, kicking but poor beyond that. He knows that Ireland have no other real options so he goes with Sexton. I think Schmidt is a pragmatic coach. He knows he cannot turn Sexton into an all round player so he bases his tactics around Sexton's kicking.

Usually the limited tactics pay off. Today they did not. The trouble with limited tactics is that the better teams will know what is coming and nullify them. The best teams vary their tactics. I don't think Ireland have the personnel to do this.

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

A great result for Ireland because it will allow us all to be more honest.  You have to thread so lightly on sensitivities when the team are 'going well' but all bets are off.  

I don't feel nearly as bad as I should feel because Wales had to play out of their skins (and they did) to get that win.  All we had to do to almost nick it is play some of the most inaccurate, lightweight, impotent, 'seemingly brainless' rugby I've seen in quite a while.  It was bereft of anything that can function adequately when the pressure is truly on.  Wales applied the pressure and watched Ireland's true 'seeming' credentials implode.

I won't name names tonight but I'll be bloody honest next week. Some players on this Ireland team need a break....from being picked - no more excuses.    

But surprisingly, behind all that, I still see a lot in that game to think there is more there. But for whatever reason, it isn't coming out during this Championship.  

I just can't accept that Ireland's coaches, and Mr Analysis, can keep playing such valueless impressions of an attacking game or that they fail to see when the opportunity to go wide is much more preferable to the continuous head-butting claustrophobia of forwards (and bloody backs) simply finding the closest contact they can find and heading straight for it.  There just has to be method in that constant madness.... or else it's just mad.

I can't believe our coaches think that's WC winning rugby that we played today.  We had nothing close to the intensity levels ready to mix it with a Wales we all knew were going to come at us with the Kitchen sink.
So I come back to thinking that was a very good game of ploddingly inept rugby almost taking a win from perhaps the most dynamic performance this year in the Championship by any side - coming from Wales.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

As for Earls, his physicality as a player just isn't adequate for test level rugby. I think he would be fine, but wouldn't do us any favours against the water tight defences of the top 6. You need to make yards against brick walls for the first 50 odd minutes of any test game.

Earls is plenty physical! He has played Wales x 4 times, has been on the winning side 2 times and has scored 3 tries. Three of the games out of 4 were in the centre (from where he scored 2 tries). One of the wins was in the Millenium Stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kc43_AiKNI&spfreload=10 that's just not great, and the Rabo is hardly the pinnacle of physicality