USA Get Two Red Cards V Italy & Record Breaking Crowd

USA Eagles went down 10-30 to Italy in Houston on the weekend in a game that was notable for two red cards (one for a late hit and the other for not using arms) and also for setting a new attendance record of 17,214.

Here are the hits

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/06/2659/usa-eagles-have-two-players-red-carded-in-loss-to-italy-in-houston#allcomments

What are your thoughts on them? To me both only merit a yellow each and I have my doubts that we would have seen that sort of reffing if it had been a tier one country involved. If players in top countries were getting reds for these then the likes of the Tuilagi bro's would never play.

Also congratulations Eagles on the crowd record!!

Neither THAT late, both a case of being over committed, although the first one the player made no attempt to pull out at all. The second one it turned into a shove as he tried to pull out. Perhaps reckless but red does seem strong.
From what I understand though the ref had already warned about dangerous tackles, and t0he hits were very hard and on both occasions to players not in a position to defend themselves leaving them hurt.

Wait to see what the citing board has to say.

Great attendance figures, if they are doing those sort of tackles then watching them could be a lot of fun in the coming years, lets hope they play Samoa a few times!

Both deserved the red cards. They were illegal shoulder charges and late. The 2 players went to nail the Italians and if you're going to do that you better get the timing and technique correct.

Dangerous play like that looks good for the fans but they're career threatening.

Anyone that thinks those were red cards is an idiot.

1. Late tackle looks late on slo mo, look at it in real time, plaus the Italian milked it for all its worth.

2. Shoulder charge was just a collision, it happens in rugby.

3. I like Clever's comment "Only a red?".

Not convinced either were red, but both 'tackled' players got blindsided and hit hard so pretty harsh to say they 'milked it'.

The second one was certainly poor technique. Players have a responsibility to get their technique right if they're going to go flying in like that. They can't be surprised if they see cards if they get it wrong.

First one he wrapped, it was not a charge. Second one the imopact was with the forearm then chest...looks to all the world like he was trying to pull out too late.
I sit somewhere between the views on those, red isnt so outrageous in the context of the game....but by no means clear cut. That it happened again after one player had got slung for it shows the intent from the USA to go for the suicide hits and play recklessly.

C'mon boys.....the first was so late it was yesterday...not even an attempt to pull out. In fact I'd say he accelerated after the kick. The second? Ok....maybe a yellow

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Anyone that thinks those were red cards is an idiot.

1. Late tackle looks late on slo mo, look at it in real time, plaus the Italian milked it for all its worth.

2. Shoulder charge was just a collision, it happens in rugby.

3. I like Clever's comment "Only a red?".

1. How do you know?

2. You've just admitted it was a shoulder charge there!

3. Not relevant to whether it was a red or not.

Agree with Ultra. First looked pretty bad, I've seen players get away with it but I've also seen them red carded for less sinister looking tackles. The second... probably yellow in my view, but they really should have been more careful having already lost one player for a dangerous tackle.

First tackle was a disgrace, forget his technique, it was a cheap shot on someone who, seeing as the ball was long gone, was totally unprepared for the hit. Could and should have pulled out of the tackle, instead accelerated and deliberately took the guy out without the ball with no other aim but in inflict as much pain as possible. Rugby gives players enough opportunity to to this legally, it doesn't need cheap shots. Red

2nd one didnt look quite as bad, but no doubt the context of the game and what had been going on influenced the decision.

Good to see the record breaking crowd there!

If USA ever got off the ground with their rugby, with the sheer population they have and their well established love of full contact ball sports they could be very very good.

For world Rugby i'd love to see them develop more. Congrats to USA for the record breaking crowd!

the first one was so late he hit him in the showers

If the USA and Russia take rugby seriously they will be in a position to challenge the likes of Samoa, Argentina, Scotland and Ireland for a respectable IRB ranking position.

The thing that shocks me most is that guy is an inside center??? WOW

But yea I think both are harsh. First only a yellow, second I wouldnt have given anything. Yea, he didnt wrap his arms around, but its not the same as a shoulder charge, his hands were used in the push.

Pretty ridiculous.

Good to see a big crowd. With Ireland touring next year they should be aiming to get an even bigger one.

Yea maybe a bit of Dropkick Murphys pre game as well. Everyone's a winner.

gowales wrote:Good to see a big crowd. With Ireland touring next year they should be aiming to get an even bigger one.

Yeah as many as 60

gowales wrote:Good to see a big crowd. With Ireland touring next year they should be aiming to get an even bigger one.

They should be targeting a win against that spent force.

HERSH wrote:

gowales wrote:Good to see a big crowd. With Ireland touring next year they should be aiming to get an even bigger one.

They should be targeting a win against that spent force.

If kidney is still in charge anything is possible for the USA

First one clearly a yellow, problem is he has set himself a precedent by giving matey a red so that explains the 2nd but in my view clear yellows. Ref had a mare

I think what was important here to an extent is that they were cited by the ref as 'deliberate'. If you kind of look at the tackles, I hasten to agree. Especially the first - I believe he just knocked on 20 seconds prior and was taking it out.

Is intention important? Well, in the case of a Sam Warburton neckdrop in the world cup, which was NOT DELIBERATE, no, because it was still dangerous regardless. But in the case of a borderline very dangerous tackle being DELIBERATE, I think that does play a part.

The game is on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GSeZcmk-9A

To shed a different light on these red cards remember Manu only got a yellow for this...

http://www.rugbydump.com/2011/05/1957/manu-tuilagi-likely-to-be-cited-after-flurry-of-punches-on-chris-ashton

My own take on things.

1 - A yellow card. That a red was given seems really harsh to me. Yea its late but I dont think its anywhere near a red.

2 - A red card. It looks to me like an shoulder/forearm/elbow to the face and whats more its very late too. He had to walk. I think you won't see a much more clear cut red but thats just my own opinion.

Others may disagree of course. We have no black/white answer in law.

1st is a yellow, 2nd is a red........more to the point how did Italy only score 10 extra points against 14 men for 12 mins and then 13 for a further 14?!

prop_lyd wrote:1st is a yellow, 2nd is a red........more to the point how did Italy only score 10 extra points against 14 men for 12 mins and then 13 for a further 14?!

Lack of killer instinct? The Americans big hits rattled them?

clivemcl wrote:second I wouldnt have given anything.

I'm stunnned. You would be happy for play on?

Madness!

Staggy
Just out of interest. How many players are left on the field at the end of a game that you ref?... not counting the trainers.

I thought the first hit was certainly a penalty, but I can understand the yellow. I wouldn't have given yellow there, but to me it appeared close either way.

The second hit I thought was a clear red. The player led with a forearm and did not appear to attempt any form of wrap-up or tackle. Real dangerous play.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Staggy
Just out of interest. How many players are left on the field at the end of a game that you ref?... not counting the trainers.

I don't think I'm in the minority. That second challenge though clear red. I'm not on my own. In the last 10 minutes DrGrey and PropLyd have both agreed that second one is a red card. The USA commentators agreed it was earned.

The first one was an over reaction from the referee I felt. A late hit but not as dangerous as the second.

ouch.

cant argue with red for either, although yellow would have been sufficient. will anyone get cited for these 'tackles' ?