London Welsh win appeal

Well done Welsh, tough luck Falcons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9365484/London-Welsh-to-join-Aviva-Premiership-after-winning-appeal-against-decision-to-deny-them-promotion.html

From somebody who doesn't follow rugby that closely, it seemed a fairly ludicrous decision by the RFU.

It still hasn't been totally confirmed that the appeal was for promotion. There seems to be some confusion what exactly it was they were appealing

Guardian now running it. Wheres the confusion?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/29/london-welsh-win-appeal-premiership

Well done to LW. They were right to take on the RFU.

The RFU have confirmed it via twitter that Welsh are promoted.

Why shouldnt Welsh go up?

They won their league and Newcastle finished bottom of theirs. While Welsh have only made similar arrangements to other teams who ground share.

The RFU's rules were unfair and needed changing. The situation where teams in the Premiership cant get back up if they are relegated are plain silly. More common sense should be used all around.

Every single top professional sporting league in the world have criteria. Including the Welsh premiership. Clubs have been denied promotion in the past for the same reason. And Pontypool are being relegated even though they weren't bottom.

And not retrospectively applying new requirements on existing clubs is not silly. It's normal.

To me his is the wrong decision, now from this any championship club can spend all it's budget on players to get promoted without any plans in place, get promoted for one season in place of a side that is doin it's best to build a proper club get relegated and take all the parachute payments and do it again

Well im full of sour grapes but ill be dignified. I would have prefered bristol to go up as winners of the league by a country mile...but see how LW go.

If the RFU hadn't of fiddled with the championship and introduced the ridiculous playoff system (where you can finishe 8th and still win). Bristol would have gone up a league winners and this would all have been avioded.

It is also going to drive my mate whos a massive Bristol fan mad!

Thank the Lord!Fairness won over incompetence.The cosy cartel has been shaken up and promotion becomes viable.Either have a closed shop or offer the chance of promotion-no place for kiddology.

Overall, a good decision for the health of the game as it opens promotion back up. I do feel sorry for guys like GeordieFalcon. Also did Newcastle not sign a few players like Scott Macleod in anticipation of still being in the Aviva?

HammerofThunor wrote:Every single top professional sporting league in the world have criteria. Including the Welsh premiership. Clubs have been denied promotion in the past for the same reason. And Pontypool are being relegated even though they weren't bottom.

And not retrospectively applying new requirements on existing clubs is not silly. It's normal.

Yet to be decided and it's a bit different down our way.
I'm surprised at the verdict, but congrats to LW and commiserations to Newcastle, but will LW be able to compete in the English Prem next season?

So, away games to the Exiles could take place in either, Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Essex or Berkshire... Sorry, did I say Exiles, surely it should be Nomads?

What a ridiculous situation, I had no doubt whatsoever that the LW appeal would fail miserably, but then again I have no legal qualifications or experience whatsoever, it appears the RFU have none either...

LW will get pumped by all and sundry and be off back to the Championship at the end of next season, unless of course, the team that wins the Championship fails to meet promotion criteria - how ironic/shambolic would that be?

If only all sides in the top tier met those criteria!Funny old world.Fairness just might make things better or are we all bankers at heart??

Knackeredknees wrote:To me his is the wrong decision, now from this any championship club can spend all it's budget on players to get promoted without any plans in place, get promoted for one season in place of a side that is doin it's best to build a proper club get relegated and take all the parachute payments and do it again

Totaly agree, LW has not got the squad next year to compete in the Avivva Premiership.

[quote="Janecory"]

Knackeredknees wrote:To me his is the wrong decision, now from this any championship club can spend all it's budget on players to get promoted without any plans in place, get promoted for one season in place of a side that is doin it's best to build a proper club get relegated and take all the parachute payments and do it again

So LW have built a squad to compete?Most reckon they will struggle.Not sure that I follow you.I think they will get tanked fairly often.Immaterial really.There is right and there is wrong.LW are up as it is right.

Taff - you are talking out of your behind. They filled in the forms late they should not have been permitted in.

They will probably go bankrupt - again. Sad day for true London Welsh people.

Well, unfortunately my source was orrect and my perdiction a couple of weeks ago was correct. Welcome London's 5ths. Back down next year....unless of course the rules change and they only go down if another sarf east team with a bit of a better set up comes around.

LondonTiger wrote:Taff - you are talking out of your behind. They filled in the forms late they should not have been permitted in.

They will probably go bankrupt - again. Sad day for true London Welsh people.

Not sure from which orifice you erupt,Tiger,LW won the games they had to,submitted a business plan that matched 2/3 clunbs alreadt in situ and have been legally adjuged as fit for promotion.If you think form-filliing is tops for sporting promotion I genuinely feel for you.Fairplay is a big deal in Wales,shame it does not seem too highly regarded in England.
Times are hard.Ask a Wasps fan.

Whilst London Welsh might struggle I can't help but feel this is a victory for rugby. Some of the RFU decision making and organisation is a shambles and this has only highlighted it. A team won the play offs fair and square and have now been rewarded for it as is right and proper. Will be interesting to see how LW go, but I'm glad that the correct decision has been made. That's my take on it. LW may go straight back down it's true, but at least they've been rewarded now for winning the championship. After all, what's the point of relegation and promotion if the RFU puts in criteria to stop it happening? Why not just ring fence it and be done with it?

ultra wrote:Well, unfortunately my source was orrect and my perdiction a couple of weeks ago was correct. Welcome London's 5ths. Back down next year....unless of course the rules change and they only go down if another sarf east team with a bit of a better set up comes around.

Sad on so many levels.I will pray for you tonight.

HammerofThunor wrote:Every single top professional sporting league in the world have criteria. Including the Welsh premiership. Clubs have been denied promotion in the past for the same reason. And Pontypool are being relegated even though they weren't bottom.

And not retrospectively applying new requirements on existing clubs is not silly. It's normal.

Bit different as Pontypool are only getting relegated as the league is being decreased in size and shaped around the existing regions (with the exception of Pontypridd and some would say Neath). It was never a case of having the same number of teams (one) get relegated and promoted as previous years, it was a complete restructuring of the 2nd tier of Welsh rugby

Well at least the top teams in the AP get two rest games next season, it's getting more like the Pro12 each year...

LW will go straight back down without any shadow of a doubt, they will be playing in Oxfordshire to an empty stadium, they probably have a hardcore of about 1000 fans, the rest will fall off when faced with a long round trip to watch "their side" getting pumped every two weeks.

Sorry, I don't see how that's a victory for rugby, it's a short term victory for LW but I doubt their underlying trading position will be any better for it next season. The only bonus will possibly be seen the season after next when they're back at "home", playing to reasonable crowds and benefiting from the parachute payments.

The RFU now have massive "egg on face" syndrome, and their most likely course of action will be to ring fence the AP as soon as the situation suits them, thus preventing any more success stories along the Exeter line.

Not good for English rugby, so no surprise for seeing a groundswell of support for the result amongst the neighbours.

Hmmm.......oh well, not to matter. ra ra and all that,,,i feel my very own article coming on regarding the importance of spreading the game beyond its southern roots, embracing us great unwashed and releasing the potential of many an otherwise chav.....laters

PJHolybloke wrote:Sorry, I don't see how that's a victory for rugby

Its not. Also, it shows a sports league cannot set its own criteria for financial success and survivability.

Good to see london welsh back in the top flight.

So sad they have to leave old deer park to do it...

It's a victory for the sugar-daddies out there. Hopefully an oil baron will by a lower club, pay over the odds for a load of SH journeymen and get them promoted while playing in a field with a couple of cows for supporters.

Did Bonymaen ever get promoted? And Bedwas was in the league above but didn't meet the criteria?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6630905.stm

maestegmafia wrote:Good to see london welsh back in the top flight.

So sad they have to leave old deer park to do it...

One of the best parts of a trip to watch London Welsh was Old Deer Park. Probably one of the nicest places to watch and simply walk around compared to virtually any club in the world. Now, it is just another club playing in some stadium - somwhere, nowhere - with no roots to the community.

Since the EU in its divine all knowing, all seeing manner have ordained London Welsh should be in the Premiership, then will they decree they drop the London from their name?

The rfu's decree has meant that London, well inner London has lost some huge rugby clubs, now they are losing another. Only sarries and quins are real London clubs, actually based within the parameters.

Wasps, london Irish, and London welsh have all had to move away. Richmond and london Scottish were expelled in financial ruin.

I am sure London welsh will remain at heart in the club house, so many great memories there, and some great rugby played on that pitch. Let's hope the future bodes well and the welsh exciles can make it work, in their second exciled home.

I may be Welsh but Im not sentimental for LW. I'm not sure that this will turn out to be the best for a club with a long and proud history. Might well end in tears. However if you introduce such a pathetic system of playoffs you must reap what you sow. Another fine chapter for the RFU.

Unfortunately this isn't a victory for rugby in any sense - scratch beneath the surface and any sensible person will see that this makes a mockery of the game. No planning, a late application, no roadmap for how they intend to stay in the AP ... I genuinely feel for the true fans of LW

Taffineastbourne wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Taff - you are talking out of your behind. They filled in the forms late they should not have been permitted in.

They will probably go bankrupt - again. Sad day for true London Welsh people.

Not sure from which orifice you erupt,Tiger,LW won the games they had to,submitted a business plan that matched 2/3 clunbs alreadt in situ and have been legally adjuged as fit for promotion.If you think form-filliing is tops for sporting promotion I genuinely feel for you.Fairplay is a big deal in Wales,shame it does not seem too highly regarded in England.
Times are hard.Ask a Wasps fan.

Unsurprisingly you clearly don't get it, TaffinE. Genuine LW fans understand perfectly well that this isn't a good decision for them. Much better to have put in the groundwork, developed the infrastructure to support a real run in the prem, but cutting corners for a brief moment of glory in the sun is good for nobody. If you could just take off the blinkers for a second ...

offload wrote:I may be Welsh but Im not sentimental for LW. I'm not sure that this will turn out to be the best for a club with a long and proud history. Might well end in tears. However if you introduce such a pathetic system of playoffs you must reap what you sow. Another fine chapter for the RFU.

Offload, spot on, RFU incompetence exposed yet again

I to am Welsh and do not support ant English clubs including London Welsh, but I will say this, how stupid do the premier rugby look now ? They put the rules in place and they should have covered all bases just in case a scenario like this happened. There must have been some flaws in their rules as what cannot speak cannot lie and LW are promoted and the PR have lost. They call themselves the richest league in the world, then why didn't they use some of that money to hire a team of people who know the legal sides of things and tie up any loose ends when they were putting these rules in place ? I agree with some posters on here that LW will probably struggle but I must admit, I will be watching the Aviva prem with a little more interest now, not just for a tool of watching rugby when there is no other rugby on t.v. I will be rooting for LW and perhaps this is just the tonic for English rugby because you have more interest now from outside if England.

I have very mixed feelings about this all. On one hand the rules put in place by the PRL are ridiculous in that so many of the current Jeff sides don't meet the criteria, therefore this successful challenge will hopefully get the powers at be to address the situation. Furthermore Newcastle came bottom so deserve to go down and LW have earnt their shot at the Jeff.

The negative side is that LW should never be allowed to go up on the grounds of playing at a stadium that will lose their supporter base. With Glaws being the first visitors to Chiefs after their promotion it was clear within minutes that Sandy Park was full of fervent supporters and it had the potential to be a real fortress. I can quite easily see the Glaws fans outnumbering LW's at the Kassam. I know I'd be furious if Glaws suddenly up sticks and moved to Birmingham as it shows a real lack of loyalty to the fans that supported and got them where they are.

I am just hoping that the governing bodies and LW have a clear plan to secure LW's financial future, as if this leads to a proud club being in dire straits then a lot of people will need to hang their heads in shame.

Taking all that aside, welcome to the Jeff LW and good luck

maestegmafia wrote:The rfu's decree has meant that London, well inner London has lost some huge rugby clubs, now they are losing another. Only sarries and quins are real London clubs, actually based within the parameters.

Wasps, london Irish, and London welsh have all had to move away. Richmond and london Scottish were expelled in financial ruin.

I am sure London welsh will remain at heart in the club house, so many great memories there, and some great rugby played on that pitch. Let's hope the future bodes well and the welsh exciles can make it work, in their second exciled home.

They arent losing a club. Firstly Richmond isnt in inner London, and secondly LW arent moving....they are just playing some games elsewhere between now and relegation.
Were they to stay up theyd have to look at a long term ground move regardless of any rules mandating size, financial viability is required. The locatyion of their ground means it cant be extended.
A better solution may have been to swap with LS, but thats not something that can be organised at short notice especially as they have a ground share with Riichmond who actually payed for most of the recent improvements.


It is a man sausage up all round, but its unfair to cast the RFU as villains in all this. They have tried to mediate between the interests of all clubs. The rules were in place to help protect the smaller Jeff members, but they kept relegation alive. The rules were also designed to help encourage clubs like bristol or Exeter who made long term investment in the game, hardly an evil ambition.
The courts decision to declare the rules unenforceable does make them look stupid, but also shows how law can trump whats actually best for the game, in making decisions based on "well this is how is how its done in soccer".


We all know the inevitable consequence of this, the door will shut. Whether thats on a top 10, 12 or two leagues of 8/10 we will have to wait and see. But you could colour me amazed if within 4 years we dont see a closed shop in professional rugby with an element of minimum standards. Then we can have the sort of arguments the Welsh Premiership has been having the last couple of years.

Joy.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

LW arent moving....they are just playing some games elsewhere between now and relegation.

Sad but probably true. Also the most succinct description of the situation so far.

seem a lot of bitterness towards London Welsh . didnt realise the Avia prem was so clicky . ur face dont fit u cant come . yes they prob go down next year but some posters seemed to cant wait for that to happen . everything legal they deserve to be up there . come on London Welsh

LordDowlais wrote:I to am Welsh and do not support ant English clubs including London Welsh, but I will say this, how stupid do the premier rugby look now ? They put the rules in place and they should have covered all bases just in case a scenario like this happened. There must have been some flaws in their rules as what cannot speak cannot lie and LW are promoted and the PR have lost. They call themselves the richest league in the world, then why didn't they use some of that money to hire a team of people who know the legal sides of things and tie up any loose ends when they were putting these rules in place ? I agree with some posters on here that LW will probably struggle but I must admit, I will be watching the Aviva prem with a little more interest now, not just for a tool of watching rugby when there is no other rugby on t.v. I will be rooting for LW and perhaps this is just the tonic for English rugby because you have more interest now from outside if England.

LD, that's good to hear that there are some positives to this outcome

Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved. As a life long LW supporter, I am proud and obviously happy at the decision and achievement, though am also rather upset about the move to Oxford and nervous about the huge risk going up is. But any true fan should want his team in the top league possible

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Unfortunately this isn't a victory for rugby in any sense - scratch beneath the surface and any sensible person will see that this makes a mockery of the game. No planning, a late application, no roadmap for how they intend to stay in the AP ... I genuinely feel for the true fans of LW

Surely that's an RFU problem though and not much to do with LW (I agree with you about no plan as to how to stay up)? They are only going by a set precedent. They won the league so why shouldn't they get promoted?

This is interesting:

"The panel, chaired by James Dingemans QC, said London Welsh had not met the requirements of primacy of tenure for their nominated stadium, but it upheld the club’s assertion that they gave rise to an unjustified distortion of competition “contrary to EU and UK competition law”."

LW may not have met the requirements but there are a fair few other clubs in the Premiership that don't either. Criticise LW by all means but what really are they supposed to do when they win the league? just stay there? If nothing I hope this brings about a restructuring of the game at this level in England because for an outsider looking in, it's all just a bit embarrassing (even more so than what's going on in Wales at the moment!)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

I wouldn't even say I'm optimistic in the sense of thinking we stand a good shot, I just have that irritating British trait of always believing in the underdog and disliking anyone who badmouths them. It'll be a huge task to stay up but I do believe that they could pull it out the bag.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:seem a lot of bitterness towards London Welsh . didnt realise the Avia prem was so clicky . ur face dont fit u cant come . yes they prob go down next year but some posters seemed to cant wait for that to happen . everything legal they deserve to be up there . come on London Welsh

It's not a clique Jimmy, any more than it's bitterness towards LW. The fact is that there are already too many "displaced" London clubs in the Jeff and now there is another one.

The whole point of the rules was to encourage clubs to adopt viable long term development and investment strategies in line with their aspirations towards promotion to the Jeff.

LW have nothing like that in place and this could potentially cause them more harm than good. Furthermore, it's not good for English rugby as it may well encourage chancers to take over clubs just for the thrill of having a crack at the Jeff.

I can't see anything good coming from it, as the ultimate sanction will be that the Jeff will be ringfenced.

If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

Not if those rules were in place to help protect clubs. They may not have been legally enforceable, that doesnt make them inherently evil and purely negative.

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Unfortunately this isn't a victory for rugby in any sense - scratch beneath the surface and any sensible person will see that this makes a mockery of the game. No planning, a late application, no roadmap for how they intend to stay in the AP ... I genuinely feel for the true fans of LW

Surely that's an RFU problem though and not much to do with LW (I agree with you about no plan as to how to stay up)? They are only going by a set precedent. They won the league so why shouldn't they get promoted?

This is interesting:

"The panel, chaired by James Dingemans QC, said London Welsh had not met the requirements of primacy of tenure for their nominated stadium, but it upheld the club’s assertion that they gave rise to an unjustified distortion of competition “contrary to EU and UK competition law”."

LW may not have met the requirements but there are a fair few other clubs in the Premiership that don't either. Criticise LW by all means but what really are they supposed to do when they win the league? just stay there? If nothing I hope this brings about a restructuring of the game at this level in England because for an outsider looking in, it's all just a bit embarrassing (even more so than what's going on in Wales at the moment!)

No question, it's the RFU's problem, dreamer, couldn't agree more. But think about this logically. In an effort to develop the game, the RFU and PRL came up with a set of minimum standards criteria (MSC) to which all clubs playing in the highest league should be held. But of course, some of the clubs already in that league didn't meet them, and so were exempted (the mistake imo was in not setting time around which these clubs should makes moves towards meeting these). However, if those clubs got relegated, to get back up, they would have to meet the MSC just like any other aspirant. But London Welsh don't and in their appeal, didn't even claim to meet them. So we end up in a situation where the original intention behind the MSC of trying to move the game forward is simply ignored. I realise that emotion will cloud thinking for many on this topic, but it seems pretty clear to me that it's a poor outcome