London Welsh win appeal

First topic message reminder :

Well done Welsh, tough luck Falcons.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9365484/London-Welsh-to-join-Aviva-Premiership-after-winning-appeal-against-decision-to-deny-them-promotion.html

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

I think it's a poor outcome in that it's highlighted that the steps the RFU have put in place aren't workable is all.

I get that they want to protect the game at the upper level and having structures in place makes sense, but I think it's crazy it's gotten to this situation that the structures the RFU have put in place aren't actually legal.

And also Asbo, what do you expect clubs like LW to do then if not appeal this? Win the league and then just stay there? How does that help to develop the game? That's effective ringfencing without out and out calling it that.

Think the RFU need to sort out this mess for once and for all instead of making stopgaps and half thougthout plans (that might come across as a bit harsh, but that's honestly what it looks like for me).

I've no doubt it will be a tough old season for LW, but why shouldn't they be rewarded for winning the league?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

What, so Exeter have been in pre season training for a month already??!

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

Not keeping with the debate but does anybody know if Gordon Ross is staying for this season? I wasn't sure because he's around 34 now, and I reckon he's got coaching ambitions, could possibly ease into a player/assistant coach role

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

rugbydreamer wrote:I think it's a poor outcome in that it's highlighted that the steps the RFU have put in place aren't workable is all.

I get that they want to protect the game at the upper level and having structures in place makes sense, but I think it's crazy it's gotten to this situation that the structures the RFU have put in place aren't actually legal.

And also Asbo, what do you expect clubs like LW to do then if not appeal this? Win the league and then just stay there? How does that help to develop the game? That's effective ringfencing without out and out calling it that.

Think the RFU need to sort out this mess for once and for all instead of making stopgaps and half thougthout plans (that might come across as a bit harsh, but that's honestly what it looks like for me).

I've no doubt it will be a tough old season for LW, but why shouldn't they be rewarded for winning the league?

I don't dispute that it is quasi-ringfencing, but I can at least see the reason why they have the structures. By 'clubs like LW', do you mean, say, the Pirates? They are planning for the future, are attempting to progress a stadium of their own, have plans in place to develop, etc. Clubs that aspire to the top flight should think like that imo, rather than finding themselves in a promotion situation and scrabbling around to sort out arrangements that will actually allow them to participate. I realise that sounds harsh too (your comment wasn't ), and I know that this situation is also of the RFU's making, but you won't convince me that this advances the game at the top level in England

rugbydreamer wrote:I think it's a poor outcome in that it's highlighted that the steps the RFU have put in place aren't workable is all.

I get that they want to protect the game at the upper level and having structures in place makes sense, but I think it's crazy it's gotten to this situation that the structures the RFU have put in place aren't actually legal.

And also Asbo, what do you expect clubs like LW to do then if not appeal this? Win the league and then just stay there? How does that help to develop the game? That's effective ringfencing without out and out calling it that.

Think the RFU need to sort out this mess for once and for all instead of making stopgaps and half thougthout plans (that might come across as a bit harsh, but that's honestly what it looks like for me).

I've no doubt it will be a tough old season for LW, but why shouldn't they be rewarded for winning the league?

All quite reasonable.


The problem is that the structure that comes about as a result is likely to make it harder for small clubs to break through, not easier....and we may see a further reduction in the level of support given by the "haves" in the jeffs to the "have nots", its PRLs unbreakable bond that keeps it as a 12 club competition. Sooner or later ambitious inverstors at places like Bath Saracens and Sale will force a fundamental change, this pushes one step closer.

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

What, so Exeter have been in pre season training for a month already??!

Em, no! Two weeks. I was talking about the summer we got promoted tho - we knew we were going up more than a month before this point in the year, so could start the prep then

I wasn't trying to convince you of that Asbo! I just don't see what you and others would want, if a club wins the league, shouldn't they be rewarded? (yes it would be better for them to have proper structures in place but again this just highlights the incompetence of the RFU, not sure why clubs should be punished for that)

rugbydreamer wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

The WP has issues
https://www.606v2.com/t31729-will-pontypool-become-the-first-club-ever-legally-defined-as-rubbish

Looseheaded wrote:Not keeping with the debate but does anybody know if Gordon Ross is staying for this season? I wasn't sure because he's around 34 now, and I reckon he's got coaching ambitions, could possibly ease into a player/assistant coach role

I hope he is sticking around for you guys, he showed in the final that he's still got what it takes

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

What, so Exeter have been in pre season training for a month already??!

Em, no! Two weeks. I was talking about the summer we got promoted tho - we knew we were going up more than a month before this point in the year, so could start the prep then

Yes but I said you were exaggerating about the pre-season training bit, not anything else. Honestly, I know a lot of people don't read what I write on here properly, didn't have you pegged down as one of them though

And yep I agreed with you about them having less time to plan (hence my comment about the late delay in the hearing having an effect).

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

The WP has issues
https://www.606v2.com/t31729-will-pontypool-become-the-first-club-ever-legally-defined-as-rubbish

I know, tis why on a previous comment I said this:

If nothing I hope this brings about a restructuring of the game at this level in England because for an outsider looking in, it's all just a bit embarrassing (even more so than what's going on in Wales at the moment!)


I'm well used tot he WRU being utterly shambolic in it's dealings with clubs. This is just a bit of same old same old for us unfortunately

rugbydreamer wrote:I wasn't trying to convince you of that Asbo! I just don't see what you and others would want, if a club wins the league, shouldn't they be rewarded? (yes it would be better for them to have proper structures in place but again this just highlights the incompetence of the RFU, not sure why clubs should be punished for that)

First and foremost, promotion and relegation should be decided on the field of play - that is the very essence of competitive sport. But don't you see that there is a broader responsibility to improve the game? This episode does highlight the incompetence of the RFU indeed, but their objective was at least well-intended

rugbydreamer wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

The WP has issues
https://www.606v2.com/t31729-will-pontypool-become-the-first-club-ever-legally-defined-as-rubbish

I know, tis why on a previous comment I said this:

If nothing I hope this brings about a restructuring of the game at this level in England because for an outsider looking in, it's all just a bit embarrassing (even more so than what's going on in Wales at the moment!)


I'm well used tot he WRU being utterly shambolic in it's dealings with clubs. This is just a bit of same old same old for us unfortunately

Fair enough RD, maybe we should all look to New Zealand and see how they have managed to utterly butcher their traditional club game, and almost bankrupt the entire union, without anyone batting an eyelid At least they have a world cup to show for it.

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

What, so Exeter have been in pre season training for a month already??!

Em, no! Two weeks. I was talking about the summer we got promoted tho - we knew we were going up more than a month before this point in the year, so could start the prep then

Yes but I said you were exaggerating about the pre-season training bit, not anything else. Honestly, I know a lot of people don't read what I write on here properly, didn't have you pegged down as one of them though

And yep I agreed with you about them having less time to plan (hence my comment about the late delay in the hearing having an effect).

Cheeky minx! Pot-kettle, my lover!!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

What, so Exeter have been in pre season training for a month already??!

Em, no! Two weeks. I was talking about the summer we got promoted tho - we knew we were going up more than a month before this point in the year, so could start the prep then

Yes but I said you were exaggerating about the pre-season training bit, not anything else. Honestly, I know a lot of people don't read what I write on here properly, didn't have you pegged down as one of them though

And yep I agreed with you about them having less time to plan (hence my comment about the late delay in the hearing having an effect).

Cheeky minx! Pot-kettle, my lover!!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

The WP has issues
https://www.606v2.com/t31729-will-pontypool-become-the-first-club-ever-legally-defined-as-rubbish

I know, tis why on a previous comment I said this:

If nothing I hope this brings about a restructuring of the game at this level in England because for an outsider looking in, it's all just a bit embarrassing (even more so than what's going on in Wales at the moment!)


I'm well used tot he WRU being utterly shambolic in it's dealings with clubs. This is just a bit of same old same old for us unfortunately

Fair enough RD, maybe we should all look to New Zealand and see how they have managed to utterly butcher their traditional club game, and almost bankrupt the entire union, without anyone batting an eyelid At least they have a world cup to show for it.

Ha yes that elusive world cup, makes it all worth it...

Nah the WRU is too focused on Team Wales at the minute and are effectively hamstringing the regional game and are rushing through criteria for the Welsh Prem without even attempting at looking at long term planning. Sigh.

rugbydreamer wrote:Ha yes that elusive world cup, makes it all worth it...

Nah the WRU is too focused on Team Wales at the minute and are effectively hamstringing the regional game and are rushing through criteria for the Welsh Prem without even attempting at looking at long term planning. Sigh.

So it's ok for a club to behave in that way, but not a union?!

rugbydreamer wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

As I have pointed out in another article Dreamer, is the rabo in line with EU competition law? https://www.606v2.com/t31857-ok-what-should-be-promotion-requirements-extending-to-the-rabo

As the Rabo doesn't have relegation or promotion issues I don't think that they do? (don't really have a clue mind you )

What happens if a sugar-daddy decided to take over a non-Rabo club within the EU (and especially the Rabo zone) and claimed an entry?

Let's take an extreme hypothetical example: Mr Abramovic decided to take over Cork Constitution playing at Cork City ground. Firstly he'd have to challenge the IRFU's right to over-ride EU's rights to allow competition in their monopoly area. And then challenge the Rabo on the same grounds.

If BT couldn't maintain their monopoly of land-line infrastructure, phone numbers etc., the IRFU and the Rabo should be a doddle.

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

But that means the only method open to the RFU is ringfencing, something which is more unfair than the current system.

If it's against the law to apply selection criteria against a team winning the championship, the only course of action the RFU could reasonably take to engender club stability in the Jeff, is to ringfence it for 10 years until all clubs in have minimum tenure requirements in stadia of a predetermined size and quality.

Bristol, Pirates and Newcastle will be stagnating whilst that all gets put in place. Congratulations to the legal team at London Welsh.

It's nice to see new faces in the Premiership, but I'm not sure I'm happy to see London Welsh get promoted. They don't have the infrastructure and in order to compete they're going to have to invest what money they get in (after Oxford FC have taken their cut) on their playing squad. That's why the infrastructure should be in place first.

I think it's grossly unfair on the Pirates, for instance, who have been going about trying to meet these criteria, for London Welsh to get promoted without bothering.

The other side of it is Exeter, who did jump through all the hoops and in my opinion are a stronger club because of it and more suitable to compete in the Premiership, especially in the long-term.

In the very short-term you want the best team going up, but the long-term dream is for all clubs to meet the promotion criteria. Forcing them to undergo these improvements (as Exeter were) is no bad thing. I don't think it's good for the long-term health of the game that a club that are so unprepared for Premiership rugby (as shown by the independent audit) can get through on what is little more than a technicality.

People commenting on the Western mail seem to be convinced that Welsh can be our 5th region...

Deluded is all i can say.

gowales wrote:People commenting on the Western mail seem to be convinced that Welsh can be our 5th region...

Deluded is all i can say.

hadnt there been talk of the WRU investing in it? I read something about the SRU having plans along those lines for LS

PJHolybloke wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

But that means the only method open to the RFU is ringfencing, something which is more unfair than the current system.

If it's against the law to apply selection criteria against a team winning the championship, the only course of action the RFU could reasonably take to engender club stability in the Jeff, is to ringfence it for 10 years until all clubs in have minimum tenure requirements in stadia of a predetermined size and quality.

Bristol, Pirates and Newcastle will be stagnating whilst that all gets put in place. Congratulations to the legal team at London Welsh.

No it doesn't, it means the RFU actually have to sit down and work out a fairer system or as others have said if they are determined to push through with this criteria then to put things in place for those that don't meet it but are actually in the Premiership to have a timescale in which to do so. If that makes sense. Really don't see how you can blame LW here PJ.

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]

gowales wrote:People commenting on the Western mail seem to be convinced that Welsh can be our 5th region...

Deluded is all i can say.

hadnt there been talk of the WRU investing in it? I read something about the SRU having plans along those lines for LS[/quote

There were talks in the past of them linking up with the O's and now more rumours of it happening with the Scarlets, as the LW chairman is now a board member with us. Doubt anything will come of it though.

Maybe like 4 years ago, but there's no way in hell the RFU would really let the WRU use it as some development club or something and rightly so.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Ha yes that elusive world cup, makes it all worth it...

Nah the WRU is too focused on Team Wales at the minute and are effectively hamstringing the regional game and are rushing through criteria for the Welsh Prem without even attempting at looking at long term planning. Sigh.

So it's ok for a club to behave in that way, but not a union?!

haha! No (and I've never said it was mr!), but that's just another fundamental problem with out sport. Professional on the pitch, arse backward and amature off it. I just don't see how a team winning the league they are in shouldn't be rewarded in some way. In England they've got the promotion system so that's that. Not the clubs problem it's managed so badly by the RFU (even if they could also be doing things themselves to make their own situation more viable)

IMO Welsh shouldn't have been awarded promotion but instead have been given extra prize money by the RFU so they could invest in the club.

But TBH i'm not sure how much of a future a club called London Welsh (important bit in the bold) has in English rugby. They should probably try and rebrand themselves in a few years.

gowales - reckon I'd agree with that first bit, some sort of reward is needed for winning a league if promotion isn't possible/allowed, but (I may be wrong) I don't think there was anything like that considered in this case.

gowales wrote:IMO Welsh shouldn't have been awarded promotion but instead have been given extra prize money by the RFU so they could invest in the club.

But TBH i'm not sure how much of a future a club called London Welsh (important bit in the bold) has in English rugby. They should probably try and rebrand themselves in a few years.

Yeah because Saracens and London Irish have really struggled to hold onto those Jeff places. Not to mention the Exeter Chiefs. I know that the Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Saxons would be shunned by the Welsh public but the Englandlanders arent quite so uptight.

I'll be surprised if they ever attract more than 5,000 at their new stadium

gowales wrote:People commenting on the Western mail seem to be convinced that Welsh can be our 5th region...

Deluded is all i can say.

That won't happen, and as you say, people are deluded if they think the WRU can make that happen. Welsh are part of the English league system, and in the top two tiers of the game (both of which are fully pro) clubs have to run an Academy producing English qualified players.

There are already very few Welsh qualified players at the club. In terms of them being able to avoid relegation, they will no longer have the benefit if fielding dual registered players from other Premiership clubs, as they did this season.

That's not a dig, but it is reality. Good luck to them, and I hope promotion doesn't bring financial ruin.

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Ha yes that elusive world cup, makes it all worth it...

Nah the WRU is too focused on Team Wales at the minute and are effectively hamstringing the regional game and are rushing through criteria for the Welsh Prem without even attempting at looking at long term planning. Sigh.

So it's ok for a club to behave in that way, but not a union?!

haha! No (and I've never said it was mr!), but that's just another fundamental problem with out sport. Professional on the pitch, arse backward and amature off it. I just don't see how a team winning the league they are in shouldn't be rewarded in some way. In England they've got the promotion system so that's that. Not the clubs problem it's managed so badly by the RFU (even if they could also be doing things themselves to make their own situation more viable)

You do get something for winning the league. You get a nice shiny trophy, medals for all your squad and you get to call yourselves Champions. That's what they were playing for at the start of the season.

However, winning the league was never meant to entitle you to promotion to the Premiership, for that you have to meet certain criteria - minimum standards of infrastructure. Clubs like Exeter and Cornish Pirates have gone about building these foundations that will stand them in good stead with the future. LW have taken a shortcut and ridden through on a technicality (two wrongs not making a right come to mind). If it were Sale, Wasps, Irish or Saracens (who don't have primacy of tenure) sitting in 12th, then I could understand the argument that this was grossly unfair, but Newcastle are a good club with their own ground and a good support base, and it's a shame to see a good club replaced by a good team in my opinion, especially as I seriously doubt that the London Welsh team is any better than the Newcastle team anyway.

Hopefully the RFU sort this farce out then, but I don't know why it has taken this long from the criteria's inception for this all to come out and someone to complain about it. It's not like the RFU tried to force these rules through to stop London Welsh getting promoted, and if they contravened EU competition law, surely someone should have said when they were being mooted and finally installed?

Robbo,

To be honest with you its not like the RFU went out of their way to fight this. Its forced the PRL and other parties back to the table to renegotiate the whole deal with collectivity, wghich is what theyve wanted for some time.
the RFU shouldnt give a tuppenny fuk if its LW or Newcastle in the Jeff, but they had to apply the rules as written. Which they did, then cooperated in the appeal making it as quick and smooth as possible.
Straight away they accpetted the courts ruling and are now looking to bring all parties back to the table to thrash out a new agreement, without the PRL being able to hold an axe over them.

So now Rob Andrew and 57 free lunches will get to reshape the future of club rugby in England. Joyous days.

rugbydreamer wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:If anything good can come from it it will be that the RFU actually puts structures in place that don't contravene UK and EU competition law, PJ?

But that means the only method open to the RFU is ringfencing, something which is more unfair than the current system.

If it's against the law to apply selection criteria against a team winning the championship, the only course of action the RFU could reasonably take to engender club stability in the Jeff, is to ringfence it for 10 years until all clubs in have minimum tenure requirements in stadia of a predetermined size and quality.

Bristol, Pirates and Newcastle will be stagnating whilst that all gets put in place. Congratulations to the legal team at London Welsh.

No it doesn't, it means the RFU actually have to sit down and work out a fairer system or as others have said if they are determined to push through with this criteria then to put things in place for those that don't meet it but are actually in the Premiership to have a timescale in which to do so. If that makes sense. Really don't see how you can blame LW here PJ.

Yes it does. (panto season's come early )

The system they had was fair, it just wasn't legal and legal doesn't always mean fair.

Every team in the top two tiers knew what the score was regarding promotion criteria, nobody challenged that previously as it was understood, in spirit, to be a method of ensuring clubs entering the Jeff were fit and healthy, had a large degree of self-determination, and could offer facilities commensurate with being at the top of the sporting ladder.

Of the teams that finished in the play-off places only Bristol had a suitable application in place, in order and in time, Bedford and the Pirates didn't even submit an application as they're busy putting real meaningful and sustainable business models together. LW rattled together a half-baked application based on a combination of wing and prayer, submitted it on the back of a fag packet and sent it in late when it became a distinct possibility that they could make the play-offs.

After winning the play-offs, LW had their application, quite rightly, turned down as they weren't up to scratch in terms of the spirit in which the criteria were first laid down - namely to ensure the development of good and intrinsically sound rugby clubs based on long term investment in infrastructure and player development. Rather than accept the decision as right and proper for the English game as a whole, out flew the rattle and in flew the legal A-Team, the rest, as they say, is history.

There are a number of things I see as salient here, LW played the two teams in the play-offs that hadn't submitted an application for promotion and therefore only had a cup to play for, LW finished 14 points adrift of Bristol and are next season going to be playing in the Jeff based on a legal argument, the RFU will not be able to vet clubs next season based on any criteria in which any of the current Jeff clubs fail, the RFU want all clubs to have a sound business model and they want clubs to either own outright or have extensive lease and operational rights to their own well-appointed stadia.

If they want owners to invest that kind of money in club/ground infrastructure, the only way they will persuade them is by ringfencing the Jeff for a period of around 10 years, nobody will be interested in building a 10,000 capacity purpose built stadium if they stand a chance of getting relegated at the end of the season.

Not good for English rugby and I harbour severe doubts that it will actually be any good for London Welsh either.

They should have stuck to the spirit of the promotion criteria and accepted the fact that they had nothing in place to ensure that we don't see another meltdown like the ones we witnessed when the game went pro, and that's what the selection criteria were all about.

I blame London Welsh entirely for whatever ills come as a result of this.

Given that LW admit that they did not meet the primacy of tenure requirement, does this judgement mean that they are no longer required to meet any of the entry standards, including for example community work, putting an academy in place, etc.? Anyone know?

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Ha yes that elusive world cup, makes it all worth it...

Nah the WRU is too focused on Team Wales at the minute and are effectively hamstringing the regional game and are rushing through criteria for the Welsh Prem without even attempting at looking at long term planning. Sigh.

So it's ok for a club to behave in that way, but not a union?!

haha! No (and I've never said it was mr!), but that's just another fundamental problem with out sport. Professional on the pitch, arse backward and amature off it. I just don't see how a team winning the league they are in shouldn't be rewarded in some way. In England they've got the promotion system so that's that. Not the clubs problem it's managed so badly by the RFU (even if they could also be doing things themselves to make their own situation more viable)

I would have no hesitation in rewarding LW - in a similar situation, Rotherham received the parachute payment that today Newcastle will get for dropping down a league, a very substantial payment which would then actually help LW plan for a proper campaign in the prem - I think LW would have been better off with that

I agree with PJ that this isn't good for English rugby at all. I also agree with As that offering LW Newcastle's parachute payment (I believe it is a two year payment as well, so offer them either both years or the full whack up front) so they could develop into a Premiership club would have been a better result for absolutely everyone.

So be it though, now we have what we have.

robbo277 wrote:I agree with PJ that this isn't good for English rugby at all. I also agree with As that offering LW Newcastle's parachute payment (I believe it is a two year payment as well, so offer them either both years or the full whack up front) so they could develop into a Premiership club would have been a better result for absolutely everyone.

So be it though, now we have what we have.

Unless Newcastle decide to appeal, robbo, which I believe is still a possibility.

From today's Grauniad:

London Welsh win appeal against Premiership exile

by Paul Rees

London Welsh will be in the Premiership next season after winning an appeal against a decision to exclude them on the grounds they did not meet the entry criteria. Three QCs, in a landmark ruling, decreed that the particular regulation the Championship winners failed to meet, primacy of tenure, was anti-competitive and broke the law.

Newcastle are relegated and will spend the weekend receiving legal advice before deciding on Monday whether to take the issue to the high court. London Welsh had been denied promotion last month by the Rugby Football Union, who were acting on a report from independent auditors that the club failed to meet the minimum standards criteria on various counts, not least because they did not have primacy of tenure at the ground where they will play next season, Oxford United's Kassam Stadium.

The three-man appeal panel heard evidence and submissions from the various interested parties on Thursday before releasing their judgment the following evening. They ruled that London Welsh did not meet the primacy of tenure regulation, but said that the hearing engaged two general principles.

"The first is that issues of promotion and relegation should, as far as possible, be determined by performance on the pitch," said the QCs, in their judgment.

"The second is that rules set out to govern the game should be respected and applied by everyone. "

At one stage London Welsh contended that it had met the requirements for primacy of tenure – it is now common ground that it had not. We concluded that the primacy of tenure regulation gave rise to an unjustified distortion of competition, contrary to EU and UK competition law."

The panel noted there were clubs already in the Premiership which did not have primacy of tenure and that the rule that allowed three of the 12 sides in the top flight to play at grounds they did not own was narrow and unjustified. It rejected Newcastle's claim that the primacy of tenure regulation itself made Welsh ineligible for promotion.

The RFU reacted to the judgment by saying it would instigate an immediate review of the minimum standards criteria, a set of regulations championed by Premiership Rugby rather than the governing body. The panel did not reject the concept of entry criteria because it dismissed London Welsh's contention that they should be allowed promotion in the interests of natural justice.

"This is a victory not only for London Welsh, its players, coaching staff and supporters but also for sport in general and the game of rugby union in particular," said the club in a statement. "It reinforces the fundamental sporting ethic that the best team should receive the appropriate awards. The strength of our case was based on legal merits, in particular anti-competition grounds, and fairness and justice."

The Premiership fixtures for next season will be published on Wednesday. London Welsh have not been in the top flight before and, even though they will be playing in Oxford, they will become the fifth club in the London area in the top 12.

Newcastle's demotion leaves Sale as the only representative from the north of England. The Falcons had feared the appeal would go against them once they realised the appeal panel was looking not just at the criteria themselves but their legality. Their contention that London Welsh had missed the application deadline was thrown out.

"It is a disappointing day for us and at this moment we have no idea of where we go from here," said the Newcastle director Duncan Edward. "As a board we have to spend the weekend considering the judgment, talking to Premiership Rugby and taking legal advice before deciding on Monday whether to take the matter further or accept the decision. The bottom line is that London Welsh have been promoted despite not meeting the entry criteria and that has huge implications for the Premiership."

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Ha yes that elusive world cup, makes it all worth it...

Nah the WRU is too focused on Team Wales at the minute and are effectively hamstringing the regional game and are rushing through criteria for the Welsh Prem without even attempting at looking at long term planning. Sigh.

So it's ok for a club to behave in that way, but not a union?!

haha! No (and I've never said it was mr!), but that's just another fundamental problem with out sport. Professional on the pitch, arse backward and amature off it. I just don't see how a team winning the league they are in shouldn't be rewarded in some way. In England they've got the promotion system so that's that. Not the clubs problem it's managed so badly by the RFU (even if they could also be doing things themselves to make their own situation more viable)

I would have no hesitation in rewarding LW - in a similar situation, Rotherham received the parachute payment that today Newcastle will get for dropping down a league, a very substantial payment which would then actually help LW plan for a proper campaign in the prem - I think LW would have been better off with that

You won't see me arguing with that Asbo, but that doesn't appear to have been possible in this case. I just think this is yet another kick up the backside the RFU need to sort out the game their end

Happy that LW go up in preference to Newcastle. These things should be decided on the field rather than on the basis of off field facilities especially as the rules don't apply to the existing teams.

Having said that I would much prefer if promotion was not based on play offs which can lead to weak teams being prmoted

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I to am Welsh and do not support ant English clubs including London Welsh, but I will say this, how stupid do the premier rugby look now ? They put the rules in place and they should have covered all bases just in case a scenario like this happened. There must have been some flaws in their rules as what cannot speak cannot lie and LW are promoted and the PR have lost. They call themselves the richest league in the world, then why didn't they use some of that money to hire a team of people who know the legal sides of things and tie up any loose ends when they were putting these rules in place ? I agree with some posters on here that LW will probably struggle but I must admit, I will be watching the Aviva prem with a little more interest now, not just for a tool of watching rugby when there is no other rugby on t.v. I will be rooting for LW and perhaps this is just the tonic for English rugby because you have more interest now from outside if England.

LD, that's good to hear that there are some positives to this outcome

ASBO, sorry for the late reply, business has been good today, had a very long day, in these climates I suppose I cannot argue, but I just tried putting a positive spin on this as I know there are going to be a lot of doom and gloom merchants from the English side of Offa's dyke just because of one word "Welsh", look lets not get dragged down by the politics and just enjoy a new flavour in the Jeff, I along with a lot of other Welshmen will now show more interest in the English game which can only be a good thing.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:Everyone immedietly writing us off is silly. I'm not saying we're gonna set the league on fire, but with the players coming in and the hopeful increase in funding we can build a solid squad which can retain it's place, and keep building from there. There seem a lot of people angry at the RFU's incompetence who are taking it out on the clubs involved.

Looseheaded, i admire your optimism and hope indeed that you can hold your own. But most clubs have already started pre-season training, nearly all players are contracted for next season already, it's going to be a struggle to augment your squad from here in time for the start of the season.

Asbo that's a bit of an exaggeration about the pre-season training. Some clubs started back last week, others are still yet to go back so on that front they are hardly all that far behind, if at all. See your point about building a squad, but most teams are still announcing signings/are yet to announce them, so LW whilst obviously having been hindered by such a late delay in this hearing (again not exactly their fault) I think should be able to make a workable squad for next season. I certainly hope so anyways.

I don't believe it is, dreamer - Exe's experience would support my view, and they were over a month ahead of where LW are now - we might get the odd signing for prem clubs, but not many, trust me

I bet there will be a lot of good Welsh players who have been released by the regions who might go there, Barry Davies the full back from the Ospreys is looking for a club.

LordDowlais wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I to am Welsh and do not support ant English clubs including London Welsh, but I will say this, how stupid do the premier rugby look now ? They put the rules in place and they should have covered all bases just in case a scenario like this happened. There must have been some flaws in their rules as what cannot speak cannot lie and LW are promoted and the PR have lost. They call themselves the richest league in the world, then why didn't they use some of that money to hire a team of people who know the legal sides of things and tie up any loose ends when they were putting these rules in place ? I agree with some posters on here that LW will probably struggle but I must admit, I will be watching the Aviva prem with a little more interest now, not just for a tool of watching rugby when there is no other rugby on t.v. I will be rooting for LW and perhaps this is just the tonic for English rugby because you have more interest now from outside if England.

LD, that's good to hear that there are some positives to this outcome

ASBO, sorry for the late reply, business has been good today, had a very long day, in these climates I suppose I cannot argue, but I just tried putting a positive spin on this as I know there are going to be a lot of doom and gloom merchants from the English side of Offa's dyke just because of one word "Welsh", look lets not get dragged down by the politics and just enjoy a new flavour in the Jeff, I along with a lot of other Welshmen will now show more interest in the English game which can only be a good thing.

cowpat. We would have been just as peed off if it was Bedford so just get over yourself. Everything negative towards something with "Welsh" in it isn't BECAUSE it has "Welsh" in it.

I was dead against ring fencing the premiership but it looks like that is the only way forward. I feel sorry for all the would-be Exeters out there that. More so for Pirates as they would have been eligible for promotion if they had a cry-baby lawyer in charge.

Bristol should hire a lawyer and appeal that they came 1st in league so should be promoted and that the playoffs werent fair, most of the jeff teams didnt have to win a playoff to get in.

Well you can pretty much guarantee that there will be a raft of applications for promotion from the Championship clubs next season.

Just as much as you can guarantee that the PRL will get together and push for this coming season to be the last one to feature a promotion/relegation element for some considerable time.

There will be some serious stitching up going on shortly, and I feel very, very sorry for the clubs in the Championship that were doing the right thing. You only have to look at Exeter to see how well the model can work when applied by a club that believes in it.

Does anyone think that LW can qualify for the HC next season? No?

What about the Amlin then?

Thought so...

PJ,
I wouldn't be surprised if you are right that relegation may be suspended or put off a few season. And if this happens, I would bet it will be after next season (allowing London Welsh an opportunity to get relegated back down).

The writing's on the wall Doc. LW will be "hoist with their own petard", but it's the other clubs working to the spirit of the criteria that I feel sorry for.