Michael Johnson - Why the progeny of slaves will strike gold at the Olympics

First topic message reminder :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167996/Why-progeny-slaves-strike-gold-Olympics.html

MJ Not afraid to face controversey it would appear

The basis of your question is ridiculous. Its like asking someone to take a randon samply on 500 Germans and 500 from Luxumberg. You will get a skewed result.

Try again.

I have followed this thread with interest although silently up until now.
With regards to the recent scenarion of taking 1000 West Africans and 1000 East Africans and training them the same and then evaluating performance at either Sprinting and Long Distance the sample size of 1000 would be reasonable.
Of course there would be statistical outliers but any analysis would have a statistical error of approx 2%.
Therefore if the difference in the results was greater than say 2% it would indicate some sort of propensity for one group or the other to better at one or the other.
As with all experiments repeating and achieving consistent results would further add evidence/proof.

In my opinion it is therefore a worthwhile question that is valid in this debate/arguement.

I look at statistics all the time and IMO and there is certainly enough evidence not to rule out a propensity for West Africans or those with some or all of that heritage to be naturally better at sprinting.
However, it could be that a mix of non West African in a person could actualy help even if a pure non West African does not have any propensity at all. This is just to make a point that when mixing two traits it does not always give you that expected from those alone. it is not purely additive. it could be how things work in combination.

Please carry on.

He was not asking for 1000 East Africans but 1000 from a particular tribe who number 1.6m and then wanting a sample from Nigeria who have 120m people. That sounds like one of those euro sceptic Tories who want a particular skewered questing asked in a referrendum.

I've read that over 80% of black people in the Americas are not 100% west African due to the systematic r*** that went on. Bolt, Powell, Blake, Frater et al are not 100% of west african stock. Yes their west african ancestry is there for all to see, but who is to say which gene makes them run faster. It could be, as you say, the combination of their mixed heritage. Or it could be as Johnson suggests that it was a speeded up darwinism where the fittest survived. Coupled with the breeding programme to make bigger and more productive cane cutters.

azania
Your second paragraph contains theories that are entirely feasible.
There is probably not one specific thing that explains the differences in performance, and my guess is that it is probably a combination of all the theories put forward in this article to varying degrees.
Of course it will take a lot of research, time and probably new discoveries to validate it all and to what degree, and in time perhaps new smaller factors will be discovered also.

The first paragraph however is still a valid comparison between two groups, but of course is limited only to the 2 groups selected. The size of the group the 1000 comes from whether a country of 120M or a tribe of 1.6M will not change how the statistics work.

One shouldn't forget self belief, hard work and the will to win. Plus the confidence knowing that your white opponent has already conceded defeat because he believes that black sprinters are genetically predisposed to run faster.

As for the comparison, well certain factors have to be in place. Both have to grow up in the same environment, eat the same food,live at sea level or altitude. Preferably have them from birth. The climate and terrain enables one to be better at one event than the other.

1st para. 1st sentence
Yes these are all factors for both White, Black and Mixed alike.

1st para. 2nd sentence
What is the second sentence needed for. I'm trying to be objective and raise the level of this interesting topic and give a balanced view.
Then you throw that one in.

2nd para.
Statistical modelling allows the isolation of the affect of all the factors included. So for the factors such as:- training, food, where living, height, weight, health etc., providing all the details are captured they can be accounted for in the modelling process to allow the specific affect of each factor to be obtained and/or discounted from the analysis where appropriate. That is what statistical modelling is all about.

azania wrote:One shouldn't forget self belief, hard work and the will to win. Plus the confidence knowing that your white opponent has already conceded defeat because he believes that black sprinters are genetically predisposed to run faster.

That, I'm afraid, it's essentially azania's entire argument in a nutshell. The first sentence is equally as bad because he gives it as a reason why black athletes dominate the sprints.

I can't say I'm offended by it, but I would imagine I know what I'd be called if I used this as a reason for the dominance of whites over blacks in any field.

skimpton wrote:1st para. 1st sentence
Yes these are all factors for both White, Black and Mixed alike.

1st para. 2nd sentence
What is the second sentence needed for. I'm trying to be objective and raise the level of this interesting topic and give a balanced view.
Then you throw that one in.

2nd para.
Statistical modelling allows the isolation of the affect of all the factors included. So for the factors such as:- training, food, where living, height, weight, health etc., providing all the details are captured they can be accounted for in the modelling process to allow the specific affect of each factor to be obtained and/or discounted from the analysis where appropriate. That is what statistical modelling is all about.

The 2nd sentence of the 1st para is aimed at those who believe that blacks of west African origin have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Imagine lining up against someone who you believe has an inbuilt advantage. It would be confidence sapping. Sprinting has fine margins. Self belief that you will win is an advantage. And the belief that you are at a disadvantage will not help in winning.

djlovesyou wrote:

azania wrote:One shouldn't forget self belief, hard work and the will to win. Plus the confidence knowing that your white opponent has already conceded defeat because he believes that black sprinters are genetically predisposed to run faster.

That, I'm afraid, it's essentially azania's entire argument in a nutshell. The first sentence is equally as bad because he gives it as a reason why black athletes dominate the sprints.

I can't say I'm offended by it, but I would imagine I know what I'd be called if I used this as a reason for the dominance of whites over blacks in any field.

I see you are not interested in debate but point scoring like a playground kid. That is not my argument in a nutshell. But if you believe it is my argument, then I'm happy for you.

You say that black athletes dominate the sport because they are genetically predisposed to do so. I dont believe that. But have fun.

But you still think that black people working harder is A REASON for their success in the sport.

And essentially, when you look at British sprinting, the whole 'self belief, hard work and the will to win' nonsense that you spout is the only one of your little theories that could possibly be attributed if you're so keen to deny any genetic predisposition.

You seem very reluctunt to discuss the reasons for athletes with a West African background dominating the sprints in the UK for some strange reason.

djlovesyou wrote:But you still think that black people working harder is A REASON for their success in the sport.

And essentially, when you look at British sprinting, the whole 'self belief, hard work and the will to win' nonsense that you spout is the only one of your little theories that could possibly be attributed if you're so keen to deny any genetic predisposition.

You seem very reluctunt to discuss the reasons for athletes with a West African background dominating the sprints in the UK for some strange reason.

I have not said that. Its not a little theory. Christie and Regis were asked a similar question and they said similar responses that I gave. In essense they said that once you line up, you have to have the self belief that you will win. If you have doubts that the person next to you has a genetic advantage, you will not perform as well. Sprinting is not just about speed. You have to have TOTAL self belief to be able to harness that sped. Why do you think Powell doesn't run as fast as he can in major finals? He lacks the self belief in totality.

You seem to totally ignore that fact that the best sprinters are of MIXED heritage. You just see a black person. That is your problem. Do you think Bolt and Blake are 100% west African? I am not reluctant to discuss it. I have mentioned it several times. You choose you discuss a biological inaccuracy. Not all black people look alike mate.

Nobody has ever denied that a lot of black sprinters are not 100% West African - but the vast majority have a significant West African heritage.

Think I've said that a good number of times.

Why don't these white sprinters run to their full potential when they're running in races of just white people then? It's a bit silly to suggest that EVERY White, Asian, East African, etc sprinter suffers from this inferiority complex. (and has done for many many years). A few athletes, fine, every athlete - to believe this is pretty moronic.

Despite you essentially calling me racist in your post - this entire premise is probably the most racist thing on the thread.

Is this a case of the irresistable force striking the immovable object?!

Or just a case of two immovable objects?! Never quite meeting?!

I'm beginning to wonder the same thing SJ!

Dj, once again you are attributing thoughts that are not mine to me. You make a comment which you attribute to me and continue to address it. Quite silly really. You may as well go and have a mass debate alone. You seem like the type of person who would enjoy that.

As for my comments being racist, please explain. Bear in mind I have not called anyone lazy or whatever. You have accused me of saying that. You are using words like 'EVERY'. Once again your words.

So how do know that its not the mixed heritage that has a greater effect? Totally ignore because they "look" west African. Another assumption.

And how you can ignore the fact that sprinting is also mental as well as physical is beyond me. But hey, run along on your own tangent and carry on with the assumptions. But remember, assumptions starts with "ass" and followed by "u".

It's my fault as you've been doing it for days now, but you either choose to ignore every word I write or you simply don't have the necessary intelligence to understand it.

Take your pick.

Of course sprinting is mental - but you're suggesting that one ethnic group is somehow more mentally strong than another. It doesn't make any sense.

azania wrote:

skimpton wrote:1st para. 1st sentence
Yes these are all factors for both White, Black and Mixed alike.

1st para. 2nd sentence
What is the second sentence needed for. I'm trying to be objective and raise the level of this interesting topic and give a balanced view.
Then you throw that one in.

2nd para.
Statistical modelling allows the isolation of the affect of all the factors included. So for the factors such as:- training, food, where living, height, weight, health etc., providing all the details are captured they can be accounted for in the modelling process to allow the specific affect of each factor to be obtained and/or discounted from the analysis where appropriate. That is what statistical modelling is all about.

The 2nd sentence of the 1st para is aimed at those who believe that blacks of west African origin have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Imagine lining up against someone who you believe has an inbuilt advantage. It would be confidence sapping. Sprinting has fine margins. Self belief that you will win is an advantage. And the belief that you are at a disadvantage will not help in winning.

azania
I was trying to lift this interesting debate to a more adult level. Why aim something as a dig at someone in response to my post. Some people may well have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Those with a West African heritage MAY have this. It may be that those with some West Africans genes only have an advantage when combined with White genes. To rule out any genetics giving a propensity for any trait whether sprinting, murder, becoming a musician, being fat or whatever is wrong without proof just as much as ruling it in.

As I said before there are probably genetics, where you were born, nurturing of various kinds, diet etc that all contribute and probably to varying degrees. Genetics may also play a part in confidence and self belief, not the only part but a part.

azania wrote:One shouldn't forget [...] hard work and the will to win.

I'm sorry but that's insulting.

skimpton sounds perfectly sensible to me, I suggest if he/she wishes to remain so we should stop this debate here.

It is clear that some have decided this is a clear-cut issue, when it is equally clear that it is complex and there are loads of unknowns.

skimpton wrote:

azania wrote:

skimpton wrote:1st para. 1st sentence
Yes these are all factors for both White, Black and Mixed alike.

1st para. 2nd sentence
What is the second sentence needed for. I'm trying to be objective and raise the level of this interesting topic and give a balanced view.
Then you throw that one in.

2nd para.
Statistical modelling allows the isolation of the affect of all the factors included. So for the factors such as:- training, food, where living, height, weight, health etc., providing all the details are captured they can be accounted for in the modelling process to allow the specific affect of each factor to be obtained and/or discounted from the analysis where appropriate. That is what statistical modelling is all about.

The 2nd sentence of the 1st para is aimed at those who believe that blacks of west African origin have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Imagine lining up against someone who you believe has an inbuilt advantage. It would be confidence sapping. Sprinting has fine margins. Self belief that you will win is an advantage. And the belief that you are at a disadvantage will not help in winning.

azania
I was trying to lift this interesting debate to a more adult level. Why aim something as a dig at someone in response to my post. Some people may well have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Those with a West African heritage MAY have this. It may be that those with some West Africans genes only have an advantage when combined with White genes. To rule out any genetics giving a propensity for any trait whether sprinting, murder, becoming a musician, being fat or whatever is wrong without proof just as much as ruling it in.

As I said before there are probably genetics, where you were born, nurturing of various kinds, diet etc that all contribute and probably to varying degrees. Genetics may also play a part in confidence and self belief, not the only part but a part.

Skimpton, apologies for using your excellent post to project onto others. Some people may or may not. The jury's still out. I am very skeptical. DJ et al support it and are trying to badger me into supporting it. They use science but ignore science when it doesn't suit their argument. They use melanin content, project it to west African and make assumptions. The overwhelming majority of blacks in the Americas are of mixed heritage. Genetics is not a cut and dried subject as they try to make it out to be. A high degree of melanin does not display what lies within.

The argument falls down as Happytraveller noted when he mentioned Brazil. Brazil has the highest population of people of African origin outside of Nigeria. Because Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Guinea Bissau and Mozambique are ex portuguese colonies and speak portuguese doesn't mean that most slaves came from there. Factually incorrect in fact as most blacks in Brazil came from Nigeria and there are close cultural similarities between the Yoruba tribe and certain aspect of African Brazilian traditions. So why dont brazil produce world class sprinters? They are a mad sporting nation. So why not? If this gene is predominant within West Africans, why have 8 Nigerians broken 10secs. Also consider many of them have been busted for steroids also. Oh yes, the argument goes that they do not have the infrastructure. Nonsense. They have running tracks all over Lagos, Benin City, Enugu, Calabar, Jos, Abuja and other cities (no I dont look at wiki as I travel to West Africa often enough).

The prevelance of Kenyans to run well over distance is countered by Arab North Africa and Ethiopians. People then ignore the impact of culture and role models. Said Aouita came around and many Arabs followed. Mirrus Yifter came up and so many Ethiopians followed. Seb Coe and Steve Ovett here in the UK broke all manner of records. They were folowed by Cram and that red haired Yorkshireman and a couple of Scots who were world beaters. How and why? They had someone to shoot at so to speak. Unfortunately it doed down and no-one has beaten Coe's Euro record over 800m. Was Coe a genetic freak or just someone who managed to harness his talent. If Coe had the mentality that some Kenyan bod was genetically predisposed to run faster than he, I doubt very much if he would have been as successful as he was.

Genetics? Yes. People who excell in athletics are born with certain advantages - the ability to run fast, throw far and endure pain over distance whilst moving at speed. But I do not support the idea that one racial group are genetically predisposed to succeed in certain athletic events.

djlovesyou wrote:It's my fault as you've been doing it for days now, but you either choose to ignore every word I write or you simply don't have the necessary intelligence to understand it.

Take your pick.

Of course sprinting is mental - but you're suggesting that one ethnic group is somehow more mentally strong than another. It doesn't make any sense.

No I'm not. That is what you want me to be saying. I have brought up Powell as an example of someone who is mentally weak. Of course it doesn't make any sense to you. Nothing other than your opinions make sense to you.

Next.

You want it all ways. You say one thing, when it's challenged you pretend you never said it.

You have problems following a discussion, and all you can do is get angry when things get confusing for you.

By my calculations, 84 athletes have broken 10 seconds legally. Of these 8 are Nigerian while another is a Nigerian "recruited" to run for Qatar. I don't know how this can be portrayed as a low number.

Mike Selig wrote:

azania wrote:One shouldn't forget [...] hard work and the will to win.

I'm sorry but that's insulting.

skimpton sounds perfectly sensible to me, I suggest if he/she wishes to remain so we should stop this debate here.

It is clear that some have decided this is a clear-cut issue, when it is equally clear that it is complex and there are loads of unknowns.

Its not intended to be insulting. Let me put it this way. I am black. My heritage is mixed. I was born in S.Africa to South African parents whose parents were also S. African and so on. But my heritage is mixed. I have Central African and West African heritage together with European heritage. But I am considered black as I look black and am black. Under apartheid my parents carried a pass and I was barred from doing what is considered the norm.

Every single black kid I knew at school had it built into them that to get half as far as any white kid, we had to work 10 times as hard. Obviously under apartheid no matter how hard you worked, you would never be 'as good'. Transfer it to the UK and I hear the same thing. Its the norm within black households in the UK. Well its the norm within the so-called black middle classes. What white people take for granted, we dont. Not getting stopped and searched is unique. I saw my son getting questioned outside our home by cops. Long story but I got a formal apology out of it. A little background.

Now there is a long streak to go the extra mile within the black community who want to be successful in anything. That is not to say that others are lazy. Far from it. But take sports. Many blacks are restricted in the job market and see sports as a way to be successful. An equalizer. Those who have the talent work damn hard. Do they work harder than their white counterparts. Probably not. But imo the difference maker happens when they line up.

Many here have this certain belief in the notion that blacks are genetically superior to whites in sprinting. I dare say that such views are not uncommon within polite white society and the chattering classes. I reckon those thoughts permeates through to sprinters of both races. With that in the back of their mind, one person would have a mental edge and the other will not. The one with the mental edge will probably run faster and win.

I know DJ will come back and pick up on one aspect and run with it (slowly because of genetics no doubt), make assertions and attribute them to me.

djlovesyou wrote:You want it all ways. You say one thing, when it's challenged you pretend you never said it.

You have problems following a discussion, and all you can do is get angry when things get confusing for you.

No. You say that I said it. You add words to make it more potent. "EVERY", ""ALL". Quite childish really.

trickstat wrote:By my calculations, 84 athletes have broken 10 seconds legally. Of these 8 are Nigerian while another is a Nigerian "recruited" to run for Qatar. I don't know how this can be portrayed as a low number.

And how many were roided?

azania wrote:

trickstat wrote:By my calculations, 84 athletes have broken 10 seconds legally. Of these 8 are Nigerian while another is a Nigerian "recruited" to run for Qatar. I don't know how this can be portrayed as a low number.

And how many were roided?

2

[quote="trickstat"]By my calculations, 84 athletes have broken 10 seconds legally. Of these 8 are Nigerian while another is a Nigerian "recruited" to run for Qatar. I don't know how this can be portrayed as a low number.[/quote]

That is easy to do.... It's less than 10%. Score that in an exam and you'll be disappointed with your low number.

ryanbailey wrote:

trickstat wrote:By my calculations, 84 athletes have broken 10 seconds legally. Of these 8 are Nigerian while another is a Nigerian "recruited" to run for Qatar. I don't know how this can be portrayed as a low number.

That is easy to do.... It's less than 10%. Score that in an exam and you'll be disappointed with your low number.

Not too bad for a country with just over 2% of the world's population.

azania. It is worth pointing out that those who you term North African "Arabs" who excel at middle distance, for instance Saida Aouita, are not really Arabs but Berbers, descendants of the people who originally inhabitated North Africa before the Arabs invaded with Islam. Of course the Berbers have mixed with Arabs and others but the predominance of Berbers in Arab World athletics would tend to support those who believe excellence in athletics is largely dependent upon genetics, racial origin, or what they call it. And back on topic, that part of the world was pretty good at slavery too (viz. Barbary Pirates). So there may well be "progeny of slaves" there too. And now I am out of here.

Of course genetics have something to do with it, but it is not the only factor.

A combination of genetics, tradition , socio-cultural factors, training (nurture) etc is responsible for the caribbean dominance in the sprints. It would be rather silly to deny the interplay of nature and nurture.

Where are Nigerian Sprinters Black population 160 million? The genectics might be there but the other factors to nurture that genectics are absent. I doubt if Bolt was born in Nigeria - he would have been succesful.

This is simillar to when I was young and living in the caribbean, I met some of the most gifted school kids. They amount to nothing because the environment was not their to nurture their natural educational talent.

"Many here have this certain belief in the notion that blacks are genetically superior to whites in sprinting"

Nobody to my knowledge has said this on this board

And therein is the problem with attempting to debate this interesting topic. Whereas some posters attempt logic (thanks for your input skimpton by the way) all your arguements are an appeal to emotion. I appreciate your background might make this whole issue rather personal but with respect to you that should have no bearing on your conclusions. But obviously it does and therefore attempting rational arguement is a bit pointless.


"Some people may well have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Those with a West African heritage MAY have this. It may be that those with some West Africans genes only have an advantage when combined with White genes. To rule out any genetics giving a propensity for any trait whether sprinting, murder, becoming a musician, being fat or whatever is wrong without proof just as much as ruling it in."

I agree with this and think that it's the crux of the matter

Is it time to move on now?

azania wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

azania wrote:One shouldn't forget [...] hard work and the will to win.

I'm sorry but that's insulting.

skimpton sounds perfectly sensible to me, I suggest if he/she wishes to remain so we should stop this debate here.

It is clear that some have decided this is a clear-cut issue, when it is equally clear that it is complex and there are loads of unknowns.

Its not intended to be insulting. Let me put it this way. I am black. My heritage is mixed. I was born in S.Africa to South African parents whose parents were also S. African and so on. But my heritage is mixed. I have Central African and West African heritage together with European heritage. But I am considered black as I look black and am black. Under apartheid my parents carried a pass and I was barred from doing what is considered the norm.

Every single black kid I knew at school had it built into them that to get half as far as any white kid, we had to work 10 times as hard. Obviously under apartheid no matter how hard you worked, you would never be 'as good'. Transfer it to the UK and I hear the same thing. Its the norm within black households in the UK. Well its the norm within the so-called black middle classes. What white people take for granted, we dont. Not getting stopped and searched is unique. I saw my son getting questioned outside our home by cops. Long story but I got a formal apology out of it. A little background.

Now there is a long streak to go the extra mile within the black community who want to be successful in anything. That is not to say that others are lazy. Far from it. But take sports. Many blacks are restricted in the job market and see sports as a way to be successful. An equalizer. Those who have the talent work damn hard. Do they work harder than their white counterparts. Probably not. But imo the difference maker happens when they line up.

Many here have this certain belief in the notion that blacks are genetically superior to whites in sprinting. I dare say that such views are not uncommon within polite white society and the chattering classes. I reckon those thoughts permeates through to sprinters of both races. With that in the back of their mind, one person would have a mental edge and the other will not. The one with the mental edge will probably run faster and win.

I know DJ will come back and pick up on one aspect and run with it (slowly because of genetics no doubt), make assertions and attribute them to me.

Mental edge is one thing. Hard work and will to win are others. It doesn't matter what you intended, when you said (in your original post) that hard work makes a difference you were essentially suggesting that blacks work harder than whites - that is insulting, whatever you meant.

I'm not going to sit here and molly cuddle an adult. But if you thought I meant that then go with it. If you feel insulted, that is your problem. I've explained it and if you don't agree, you don't agree.

english_osprey wrote:"Many here have this certain belief in the notion that blacks are genetically superior to whites in sprinting"

Nobody to my knowledge has said this on this board

And therein is the problem with attempting to debate this interesting topic. Whereas some posters attempt logic (thanks for your input skimpton by the way) all your arguements are an appeal to emotion. I appreciate your background might make this whole issue rather personal but with respect to you that should have no bearing on your conclusions. But obviously it does and therefore attempting rational arguement is a bit pointless.


"Some people may well have a genetic advantage when it comes to sprinting. Those with a West African heritage MAY have this. It may be that those with some West Africans genes only have an advantage when combined with White genes. To rule out any genetics giving a propensity for any trait whether sprinting, murder, becoming a musician, being fat or whatever is wrong without proof just as much as ruling it in."

I agree with this and think that it's the crux of the matter

Is it time to move on now?

Horse manure. Show me evidence that is beyond proof and doubt. There isn't any. we are left with a leap of faith. That is in essence the argument of those who claimthat West Africans have a genetic advantage. Also ignoring the fact that most who have broken 10s are mixed.

azania wrote:
Horse manure. Show me evidence that is beyond proof and doubt. There isn't any. we are left with a leap of faith. That is in essence the argument of those who claimthat West Africans have a genetic advantage. Also ignoring the fact that most who have broken 10s are mixed.

Secondly, you seem to be calling out people coming up with Nigerian sprinters.
Let's go back 10 years in the past.

Are you watching the world junior champs on eurosport?

Did you here thr bit about the Nigerians missing the first two days due to 'visa issues'? That lack of infrastructure could be one reason for their relative lack of success.

[quote="azania"][quote="skimpton"][quote="azania"]

skimpton wrote:1st para. 1st sentence
Yes these are all factors for both White, Black and Mixed alike.

Factually incorrect in fact as most blacks in Brazil came from Nigeria and there are close cultural similarities between the Yoruba tribe and certain aspect of African Brazilian traditions.

Where did you hear that? The research I quoted earlier said that slaves came from all parts of Africa. That was said to be a surprise to researchers.

I'd like to welcome Grilo to the forum and appreciate the additional knowledge he has brought to the discussion. I also notice for the first time Treacher and Skimpton who are also bringing wisdom to the forum

ps I would also like to congratulate Azania for reaching the ripe old age of 100. Congratulations Sir

Welcome aboard Grilo.

You said:
you are equally stubborn by trying to push the theory that mixed lineage would be what makes you fast

I am not pushing that theory whatsoever. I mention that matter because people are saying that some gene that is within some west africans make them run faster. My counter is that those who run fastest are from the americas who are mostly of mixed heritage.

There are many reasons why some people run fast. Yes individuals have something within them that enables them to run fast. Just as footballers have a natural born talent to play in the EPL. Their ethnicity is irrelevant.

Brazil is an excellent example. Why don't they produce good sprinters. They are a sports mad nation and have loads of people who originate from west africa. Perhaps that theory should be looked at again.

[quote="teassoc"][quote="azania"][quote="skimpton"]

azania wrote:

skimpton wrote:1st para. 1st sentence
Yes these are all factors for both White, Black and Mixed alike.

Factually incorrect in fact as most blacks in Brazil came from Nigeria and there are close cultural similarities between the Yoruba tribe and certain aspect of African Brazilian traditions.

Where did you hear that? The research I quoted earlier said that slaves came from all parts of Africa. That was said to be a surprise to researchers.

I read that capoeira (spelling) is closely linked to some Yoruba ritual masquerading as dance and martial arts.

azania wrote:Welcome aboard Grilo.


I am not pushing that theory whatsoever. I mention that matter because people are saying that some gene that is within some west africans make them run faster. My counter is that those who run fastest are from the americas who are mostly of mixed heritage.

I think this is a major reason why this discussion is still going, despite it being explained to you simply on many an occasion.

Nobody is saying that there is some gene within some West Africans that make them run faster.

There is a big difference between there being a specific gene and populations having a genetic propensity. Let's just lose the word genetic and just say propensity, it might alleviate a little of the confusion that it seems to be causing you.

Fine. Swap genetic for propensity and my point remains the same.

Interesting that Lemaitre said that there was probably a mental block within white sprinters that stops them from running to their potential.

"I personally find that comment offensive. It assumes that because Johnson is black and talking about an issue you support that he is right. You should be aware that black people also have different opinions with one another......just like white people or any other group."

Your very words. Or does that not apply to Lemaitre here?

I have given up on Azania since the suggestion that blacks work harder than whites and subsequent refusal to clarify and/or apologise. That and the comment about "white justice" on the John Terry thread.

Lemaitre has a point, I'm sure there are mental issues there.

djlovesyou wrote:"I personally find that comment offensive. It assumes that because Johnson is black and talking about an issue you support that he is right. You should be aware that black people also have different opinions with one another......just like white people or any other group."

Your very words. Or does that not apply to Lemaitre here?

Read the very first comment at the start of the OP. It seems that Christophe is not afraid to shy away from controversy. He doesn't believe that black people have a special propensity to run fast. I support his opinion and disagree with Johnson.

Mike Selig wrote:I have given up on Azania since the suggestion that blacks work harder than whites and subsequent refusal to clarify and/or apologise. That and the comment about "white justice" on the John Terry thread.

Lemaitre has a point, I'm sure there are mental issues there.

It wasn't a suggestion or anything of the sort. There are loads of caveats which I gave but you choose to ignore it. Probably want to be a victim and feel oppressed it seems.

If you believe that your opponent has a genetic advantage, that is half the battle lost unfortunately. Sprinting at an elite level is as much ability as it is mentality.

"Sprinting at an elite level is as much ability as it is mentality"

No it's not that's just a ludicrous thing to say.

english_osprey wrote:"Sprinting at an elite level is as much ability as it is mentality"

No it's not that's just a ludicrous thing to say.

Asafa Powell may disagree with that.