My dear friend Bruce cops more criticism.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 6:52 pm

From Rugby 365.

The seven-time champions were sunk by the Hurricanes in front of their home crowd in Christchurch which leaves them facing a tough battle to get into the play-offs.

The visitors showed plenty of character to secure the narrow victory and keep their own play-off hopes alive, but Blackadder was left fuming as he felt that there had been obstructive running in the build-up to both of Hurricanes captain Conrad Smith’s two tries.

He told Fairfax NZ News: “There were two tries that shouldn’t have been allowed for a start. Those things, they hurt you and they kill you.”

Smith’s first try saw Julian Savea block Crusaders flyhalf Tom Taylor in front of the tryline and Blackadder said that in cases such as these the TMO should be given greater powers to ensure that the fairest outcome is reached.

“To me that was not a try. If there was a TMO like rugby league, they wouldn’t have allowed it,” Blackadder said.

The Crusaders boss was further frustrated when Hurricanes lock Jeremy Thrush was allowed to obstruct Luke Romano in the lead-up to Smith’s second try, but admitted that despite these issues his team had not been accurate enough on the night.

“Even the second one [was dubious], when they had a guy in our defensive line as obstruction. But we weren’t quite on song and put our hands up and took responsibility for what wasn’t a very accurate performance,” he said.

Referee Lawrence was at the centre of controversy at last year’s World Cup when many South African felt aggrieved at his application of the breakdown laws in the Springboks’ quarterfinal defeat to the Wallabies.

Apparently Blackadder did not speak to Lawrence after the match, but did have a lengthy discussion with SANZAR referees boss Lyndon Bray.

The loss to the Hurricanes has placed even more importance on the Crusaders’ clash with the table-topping Chiefs in Hamilton this weekend and Blackadder said that his team are aware it could make or break their season.

“We are now in a death struggle to make the play-offs. We have a lot to do to make the top six. We just have to absolutely focus on our tasks this week and on getting a result on Friday,” he said.

by HammerofThunor Wed 04 Jul 2012, 6:54 pm

You're getting worse than Ghost is with Barnes

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 6:56 pm

I am just reporting the news mate, I wasn't the one moaning. kiss

by HammerofThunor Wed 04 Jul 2012, 6:59 pm

Can we have a sticky then for all the links to articles with coaches blaming refs?

And is the first one you've come across? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with SA so it's rather strange you felt it was worth a post Whistle

by red_stag Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:02 pm

Biltong I've never understood your Bruce/Bryce joke.

by Thomond Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:05 pm

It was a dig Biltong and you know it.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:06 pm

Well in SA we tend to tell australian jokes by indentifying them as Bruce, similar to South Africans are always Van der Merwe or Van.

So my dig at Bruce is the QF.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:07 pm

Thomond wrote:It was a dig Biltong and you know it.

Of course it is a dig, but I did call him my dear friend.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:08 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Can we have a sticky then for all the links to articles with coaches blaming refs?

And is the first one you've come across? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with SA so it's rather strange you felt it was worth a post

It is the club section of Rugby union, and this was a Super XV match

by Thomond Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:08 pm

A bit long to be holding a grudge man. I'm not one to be mocking soccer fans but will we soon be shouting the referees a ...... if we continue this trend?

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:10 pm

Its not a grudge Thomond, it is my pet project.

I am assimilating my grief. Wink

by PJHolybloke Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:25 pm

Biltong, don't let them grind you down man.

Some things in the universe are constants, gravity, the speed of light, Newton's Laws, night and day and never, ever, ever forgiving Bruce Lawrence.

If you fail us now mankind will be on the edge... maybe that's what the Mayans were on about.

Shocked

No forgiveness before December!

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 7:46 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:Biltong, don't let them grind you down man.

Some things in the universe are constants, gravity, the speed of light, Newton's Laws, night and day and never, ever, ever forgiving Bruce Lawrence.

If you fail us now mankind will be on the edge... maybe that's what the Mayans were on about.

No forgiveness before December 2035!

Fixed that for you mate. thumbsup

by sugarNspikes Wed 04 Jul 2012, 8:06 pm

People talk about the law interpretations ruining rugby, but this constant undermining of referees by coaches, players and fans is far worse.

It just becomes a ready-made line these days when a side loses.

by PJHolybloke Wed 04 Jul 2012, 8:12 pm

biltongbek wrote:
PJHolybloke wrote:Biltong, don't let them grind you down man.

Some things in the universe are constants, gravity, the speed of light, Newton's Laws, night and day and never, ever, ever forgiving Bruce Lawrence.

If you fail us now mankind will be on the edge... maybe that's what the Mayans were on about.

No forgiveness before December 2035!
Fixed that for you mate.

Cheers bud. Keep on keepin' on. Hug

by yappysnap Wed 04 Jul 2012, 8:59 pm

Uh I never like hearing a coach publically slagging off a ref.

Haven't players got in trouble for this in the past as well?

I don't think i've ever seen Bruce have a bad game either, hes a very underrated ref.

by Taylorman Wed 04 Jul 2012, 9:21 pm

Agree with smiths try as you know when somethings wrong when it just feels wrong. And that try felt wrong. Should have been a scrum for accidental offside at least. But the comment was specifically pointed at the tmo...it seems to be assuming bl missed it and that the tmo should step in.

In saying that, thats about the only thing that went the canes way and with the canes virtually handing thover all their scrum and lineout ball the saders should have done more than a solo guiford try and robinsons.

They need to be a lot better this week as the chiefs now look to be the saders of old. Defence AND attack in spades. The canes chiefs showdown could see those two teams in for NZ.

by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 Jul 2012, 9:29 pm

While I understand that this thread is primarily for Biltong to vent and deal with unresolved issues (like not winning the world cup) Wink

. I am slightly alarmed at the 'ref-critiquing', shall we call it' that is sneaking into rugby
(I don't seem to remember it being as prevalent 10 years ago). While I hope the IRB holds its refs to account for errors, I think that the 'blaming of the ref' by players coaches journalists etc, could potentially have dire consequences if allowed to continue. As mentioned above, we might end-up like soccer, which in my opinion is out of hand, and the mal-treatment of the ref in that game is one of the reasons I find it difficult to watch the game. Furthermore, I see more and more ref-bashing trickling into school-boy rugby (there have been two high-profile incidents in SA this season where refs have actually been attacked at school rugby matches, one by a player - a school-boy! - and the other by a coach) We have to ask ourselves, is it worth taking a couple of bad calls on the chin, so to speak, and even losing a match because of it, or even a tournament, if it safeguards the game as a whole from sliding down a slippery slope from whence it'll be difficult to return!

Disclaimer: this is not a dig at you Biltong, it is more a commentary on what I see as a broader trend that is developing.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 9:42 pm

MrFishpaste unfortunately this is the natural progression as the laws have so much ambiguity these days and there is more and more on the line with every match, money, future careers etc.

I just watched Re Union and TJ showed two of the Hurricanes tres should not have been, the first ry we all know about however the one where the forward (can't remember his name) was standing in a total offside position of the ruck impeded the inside and outside defenders.

Tane Randall was actually more convinced the second try was blatant obstruction and should have been a penalty, the first in his opinion was more a case of accidental obstruction.

Anyway, because of the controversial matches on the increase this isn't going to go away.

Sure I am having a dig at my old friend Bruce, but then I am having fun with it.

by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:04 pm

I know you're having a bit of fun....

....But seriously now: Surely the criticism needs to be leveled at the IRB for over-complicated rules, and the refs need sympathy for having to interpret them on the spot!

I agree that, with more money on the line in rugby matches in the pro era the ref will come under increased scrutiny, but at what cost to the game as a whole? What would rugby be like if it ever devolved to the point where the rugby ref is treated like a soccer ref? Already, we've seen SBW tell the ref to F*** off in a recent Super RUgby match (the one with the big, 'hand-bag' session)...I don't think this kind of thing will be good for Rugby!!

by red_stag Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:09 pm

Here is a question. How would the public react to this.

- Referee awards penalty. Lets say that it was a bad call too and replays show that he should have given it the other way.

- Player shouts "F*** You" to the referee

- Referee issues a straight red card for a player cursing at the referee.

Would the public reaction be:

A: Support the referee for dealing with abusive language towards match official

B: Criticise the referee on the premise that the player had a right to be angry

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:12 pm

I agree that the criticism should be pointed at the IRB, but you know as well as I do things don't work that way.

Referees are the front line and in the eyes of the spectators on a weekly basis, vor us the IRB is like the untouchables behind bulltproof glass cages, locked in a sterile environment hiding away from public eyes.

The only way the IRB is going to repsond or make changes is when the public enmass protest on what they see firsthand.

Sad, but true.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:14 pm

red_stag wrote:Here is a question. How would the public react to this.

- Referee awards penalty. Lets say that it was a bad call too and replays show that he should have given it the other way.

- Player shouts "F*** You" to the referee

- Referee issues a straight red card for a player cursing at the referee.

Would the public reaction be:

A: Support the referee for dealing with abusive language towards match official

B: Criticise the referee on the premise that the player had a right to be angry

I think it firstely depends on whether it is your team's player, the reality is most fans are so invested emotionally in their teams that they don't think straight. we have seen it before here on the forum whereby what we defend this week we blast next week.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:22 pm

Why issue a red card?

In a one off incident perhaps the ref should issue a yellow, is that not one of the purposes of the yellow, give the player 10 minutes to go away settle down, and think about what hes done.

I wouldnt criticise the referee for dealing with incidents of abusive language, especially if its directed at him or any other officail, but it must be dealt with in context with the situation and the game at the time of the incident.

by red_stag Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:29 pm

Biltong what was the publics reaction to Peter van Zyl in South Africa.

Do you think over 16 years later that the reaction would be different if it happened now.

by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:35 pm

Red Stag: My answer would be option A. I think my overall point is that if a ref makes a bad call, a team may lose a match, which would make fans of that team unhappy (and require hours of expensive psycho-therapy to get over it - like our esteemed colleague Biltong Wink

) But if the ref's authority is consistenly undermined (the authority of the office of referee, so to speak) then we may 'lose' the sport as we know it and that will make all fans unhappy (Okay, so a little melodramatic, but you get my point).

But as Biltong has said, the ball is essentially in the IRB's hands...

by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:37 pm

RE: Piet Van Zyl. AS I recall, most of the people that I came into contact with thought he was a moron, and were glad that AJ Venter laid into him at the bottom of the 'ruck'. All he did was re-inforce the stereotype that Boks (and their fans) are thugs...

by PJHolybloke Wed 04 Jul 2012, 10:38 pm

red_stag wrote:Here is a question. How would the public react to this.

- Referee awards penalty. Lets say that it was a bad call too and replays show that he should have given it the other way.

- Player shouts "F*** You" to the referee

- Referee issues a straight red card for a player cursing at the referee.

Would the public reaction be:

A: Support the referee for dealing with abusive language towards match official

B: Criticise the referee on the premise that the player had a right to be angry

Invade the pitch and force feed the ref a handful of carrots - you know it makes sense.

Refs make mistakes because they're exactly the same as the rest of us, it does make me smile when people berate them merely for being human. I have never seen a game where I've thought a ref was "biased", "bought", "bent" call it what you like, I've very rarely seen a game where the performance of the ref has been the primary reason for one team winning and one team losing, the massively overwhelming amount of games I've seen where one team has lost, they pretty much earned the defeat themselves.

Aus v SA QF in 2011 RWC was one of the games I've seen where a referee did have such a poor performance that his decisions had a skewed influence on the final result, but I still don't believe it was the result of a hidden agenda, "Bruce" just had a really, really bad day at the office.

I still reckon I have them much more often than he does though. Very Happy

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 05 Jul 2012, 12:24 am

red_stag wrote:Here is a question. How would the public react to this.

- Referee awards penalty. Lets say that it was a bad call too and replays show that he should have given it the other way.

- Player shouts "F*** You" to the referee

- Referee issues a straight red card for a player cursing at the referee.

Would the public reaction be:

A: Support the referee for dealing with abusive language towards match official

B: Criticise the referee on the premise that the player had a right to be angry

In that situation it would always be A for me, even if it was against Ireland. A referee shouldn't tolerate that sort of thing, and a player has to respect the referee on the field. That is what I was brought up to do by my coaches, to show respect to the referee no matter what. BTW did you see SBW getting into a scuffle and when the referee then talks to him about it he seems to tell the referee to eff off? If you haven't seen it I shall post the link (or for anyone else who would like to see it). The referee does nothing in this instance.

I realise players can lose their cool at times, but that isn't an excuse. When a player loses his cool and punches someone they still get carded. The same thing should happen if someone is abusive towards the referee.

by Guest Thu 05 Jul 2012, 1:21 am

Yup, saw SBW mouth off football style. Not a good look. This is more common in the NRL where he came from.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Jul 2012, 8:58 am

Why issue a red card?

In a one off incident perhaps the ref should issue a yellow, is that not one of the purposes of the yellow, give the player 10 minutes to go away settle down, and think about what hes done.

Nope, a definite red everytime I'm afraid Laurie. Abusing a match official is just not on. There are plenty of ways to vent at a referee without verbally abusing them, "come on sir, I was on my feet" is perfectly acceptable if a little likely to get you marched 10m if it happens to often. I have no problem with a player questioning a referees decision, the ref should be able to give a reasoned answer. I have a large problem with players just screaming at the ref and waving their arms about football style.

by Mr Fishpaste Thu 05 Jul 2012, 10:24 am

I saw the SBW incident ans was not happy (it is posted on Rugby Dump if anyone wants to see it...) if it is a card-able offensive (to swear at the ref) can it be cited?

by formerly known as Sam Thu 05 Jul 2012, 10:29 am

I saw the SBW incident ans was not happy (it is posted on Rugby Dump if anyone wants to see it...) if it is a card-able offensive (to swear at the ref) can it be cited?

Any offence can be cited as far as I know. Particularly something that can earn a red card and a three game ban. I think David Paice was the last AP player to be sent off for swearing at a ref, 3 game ban followed.

by Guest Fri 06 Jul 2012, 9:45 am

Bruce is a fricken pillock!! Just awarded a bs double movement try to the crusaders, knob head.

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 06 Jul 2012, 10:04 am

EBOP wrote:Bruce is a fricken pillock!! Just awarded a bs double movement try to the crusaders, knob head.

This is also an acceptable response. Very Happy

by Guest Fri 06 Jul 2012, 10:10 am

What can I say Carpe Diem, the pressure got to me Doh

You do have to marvel at the restraint of these players sometimes. If we got binned everytime we swore at the ref, we'd see no couch time Very Happy

by Effervescing Elephant Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:06 am

My Wife can't stay in the same room as me when i'm watching a game. The swearing and flailing limbs make it a very unsavoury place to be!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 11 Jul 2012, 2:10 pm

Am surprised that biltong hasn't commented on the Ellis double-movement try?

by **Biltong** Wed 11 Jul 2012, 2:21 pm

I copped so much criticism for putting up this thread about Bruce and other things, I decided I will stick to rugby related things only as of now.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 11 Jul 2012, 2:45 pm

biltongbek wrote:I copped so much criticism for putting up this thread about Bruce and other things, I decided I will stick to rugby related things only as of now.

Furry muff, but it was an absolute howler of a decision, particularly when as TMO he has the time to take an informed decision rather than a quick reaction! Surely he'll be removed from the panel?

by gowales Wed 11 Jul 2012, 2:56 pm

Bryce is a joke. He shouldn't reff another professional rugby game again. Ok, maybe a Pro 12 game between Zebre and Connaught.

Just my take on it Smile

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:00 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I copped so much criticism for putting up this thread about Bruce and other things, I decided I will stick to rugby related things only as of now.
Furry muff, but it was an absolute howler of a decision, particularly when as TMO he has the time to take an informed decision rather than a quick reaction! Surely he'll be removed from the panel?

Yeah I saw it too, very strange call. It was just bizarre, it couldn't have been more obvious.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:09 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I copped so much criticism for putting up this thread about Bruce and other things, I decided I will stick to rugby related things only as of now.
Furry muff, but it was an absolute howler of a decision, particularly when as TMO he has the time to take an informed decision rather than a quick reaction! Surely he'll be removed from the panel?

I saw something somewhere (NZ Herald?) saying that the refereeing assessor had backed Bruce's call on that one Headscratch

by red_stag Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:56 pm

What question was the TMO asked. That can very often make all the difference.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 11 Jul 2012, 3:59 pm

red_stag wrote:What question was the TMO asked. That can very often make all the difference.

"Try or no try?" from memory

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:00 pm

"Try or no try" - but blatantly obvious double movement in the act of scoring

by red_stag Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:38 pm

Then ignore. Criticism seems justified. I hate giving out about referees but for that dopey idiot I'll make an exception.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:43 pm

SANZAR Game Manager Lyndon Bray has backed Lawrence's TMO call:

“You only have to imagine that this tackle scenario happened on the halfway line and you realise that you are dealing with the same picture that our players and referees deal with many times per game,” Bray said.

“The tackler is driven off the ball carrier by the first arriving player, who does a great job of maintaining his feet as he enters the tackle, and Ellis ends up exercising an option: that is, he has the ball on the ground over the line.”

“He does not make a second attempt to place the ball, nor does he try to get back to his feet to get over the line. The action happened all in a natural period of time. If this had happened on halfway, Ellis would have placed the ball after the Chiefs player was driven off him, and we would have played on.”

(from http://www.frontrowgrunt.co.za/2012/07/bryce-was-right/ )

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 11 Jul 2012, 5:41 pm

And the moon was blue

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