Lions 1 Year Out Captain Poll

First topic message reminder :

Just a little aside from Rava's article. Would be interested to see if we can call this right, 1 year out, especially when you consider the massive role the coming season has in relation to selection. Let me know if you want anyone added to poll.

SOB went toe to toe with Richie twice. Now granted the Irish backrow as a unit are good poachers, SOB is possibly our best.

miaow wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

miaow wrote:Cannot believe that Warburton has the same percentage of votes as Jonny Wilkinson! Are we really struggling for fly halves that badly!? First choice 10s will be Sexton, Priestland, and one of Flood or Farrell. I'd prefer Flood, but depends if he plays or not.

Warburton would be a good choice for captain. He will be the first choice seven, almost guaranteed. The fact he hasn't toured before does count against him. POC is the obvious choice, followed by BOD. I'd be very surprised if Robshaw went, but think he would make an excellent captain for the dirt trackers.

Not sure about Best tbh, I think he faces stiff competition for the numer two shirt.

Why? Rennie was vastly superior in their respective tours, and I think Rennie is only getting started.

EDIT: It is the same story for O'Brien.

I think if O'Brien starts at 7, regardless of how well the rest of the team plays, the Lions will struggle. They're up against the best openside in the world next Summer, Pocock proved how good he is in the way he dominated the Second Test against Wales last month. O'Brien, whilst a great player, would have to, for me, benefit from several injuries to start at 7. Great player, but against the best teams, his fetching ability toe-to-toe with best poachers isn't up there.

Rennie, whilst evidently having a better Summer tour than Warburton, was hardly playing the kind of opposition (I include the first game against Australia, such was the nature of the game and side that the Wallabies put out) that would allow that to be a fair gauge of who is the better player. Warburton has played Pocock out of a game: in 2010, at the Millenium Stadium, he marked Pocock out of the game, and whilst he didn't contribute massively in terms of offensive turnovers, he's a much more experienced and better player now than he was then.

All three will go. I think O'Brien is hampered by his ability to play across the backline/lack of top class fetching. Rennie could play himself into the starting slot. I'd be surprised, he hasn't really...proven himself in the way Warburton did at the World Cup. And this is the point, aside from who I think deserves it more, it's far more likely for Warburton to start. Firstly, there is the Gatland connection, but more importantly Gatland likes what he likes and is loyal to players who conform to what he wants. Having captained Wales to the World Cup and played against Pocock on numerous occasions, if not as successfully this Summer as in the past, he's got the experience and nous to try and take out one of the three important threats Australia have (the other two being Genia and the running ability of O'Conner/Cooper/Ioane etc.). They will need to target and stop these if they are going to win, and I don't think putting Rennie in because he's in form, or O'Brien in because he's incredible with ball in hand, will help. We could be faced with another Lee Mears/Phil Vickery scenario, so out of depth in one area that it negates all the other good work in other areas.

Warburton was unfit this Summer, but he'd been beasted for over twelve months, from the Polish training camps, World Cup, kept together for the Six Nations, and then rushed back for the Summer tour. It showed, especially in the Second Test, and I feel with O'Brien in the team, and no specialist breakdown operator, a repeat of this scenario is likely, which would be suicide. I'd be delighted if Rennie performed against the Wallabies, he's a very exciting player for Scotland and one who will be around for many years to come, someone, along with Gray, they can build the pack around. I'm not arguing for Warburton's inclusion over him per se, and certainly not just because he's Welsh. But the likelihood is Warburton will start, because of the selection criteria for the Lions. Even when Tipuric was clearly in better shape and form, Warburton was included over him. It may be right or wrong, we've seen both positive and negative results of loyalty to an out of form player (Mike Phillips a good example). Gatland may be experimental with his 3/4s, but he is increasingly conservative as the numbers get lower on the back of the shirt.

Sounds like you haven't been watching him lately. He was an absolutely top class 7 this summer and in the knockout stages of the hc. He won the vital turnover that ended the clermont semi, he outplayed mccaw at the breakdown in the second test v new zealand, and played extremely well in the first, getting turnovers. Claims about him being an inadequate fetcher are plain wrong. His weakness is his link play these days.

Hmmm I might be wrong then. I just feel that, for both Leinster and Ireland, he's part of a very savvy breakdown unit. Now, hopefully, the Lions will also have this, but I think his intrinsic ability to turn ball over isn't quite up there with Warburton or Rennie. But, as I said, Leinster and Irish fans who watch him closely will likely disagree, and they probably know more about him than I do.

With the greatest respects to both McCaw and O'Brien, Richie isn't what he used to be.

Did you see the 3rd test? Granted we were absolute shoite but Richie was unreal.

For the Lions, I see O'Brien as an absolutely perfect impact sub. He can play 6, 7 or 8. And against tiring defences you'd expect him to punch holes and make yards, if the team can get the ball in his hands in the right places.

I'd have Ferris as a definite starter at 6. As effective as Lydiate is, Ferris actually tackles harder and brings much more when in possession if needed. 8 is completely up in the air between Heaslip, Faletau, Denton and Morgan in my opinion. 7 is between Rennie and Warburton. I agree that Rennie had a better summer tour. But I also agree with the posters who say Warburton is favourite. I don't think he was fully fit for this tour. At his best he's the best 7 in the 4 nations.

Does anyone else worry about Gatland as coach? He's done a great job for Wales. But he's still Wales coach. From a non-Welsh perspective; is there a danger he'll go with what he knows rather than who's best? And I'm not suggesting he'd be deliberately biased, nor am I having a dig at Wales. But coaches who are in a job a while do acquire favourites, and can be slow to change their minds.

From a Welsh perspective, there's also clearly the danger that favouring non-Welsh players could upset the Welsh camp after the tour is done and dusted. It's happened before. If I was the WRU I would have been reluctant to let him take this job. Just to avoid the potential pitfalls.

Feckless - SOB wasn't fit either (just had an op), so that is no excuse for Warburton.

As Gatland is the coach, it probably won't be a Welsh captain.
Ross Ford might be in with a shout.

Sin é wrote:Feckless - SOB wasn't fit either (just had an op), so that is no excuse for Warburton.

That's true. O'Brien hasn't been fully fit all season. And he has improved out of sight at 7. But can you think of anyone better suited to the role of impact sub?

Using the bench well is important. I think it's one thing that Leinster have done brilliantly. Particularly when changing the props or the scrum half at the correct moment to change the game.

miaow wrote:
I think if O'Brien starts at 7, regardless of how well the rest of the team plays, the Lions will struggle. They're up against the best openside in the world next Summer, Pocock proved how good he is in the way he dominated the Second Test against Wales last month. O'Brien, whilst a great player, would have to, for me, benefit from several injuries to start at 7. Great player, but against the best teams, his fetching ability toe-to-toe with best poachers isn't up there.

Rennie, whilst evidently having a better Summer tour than Warburton, was hardly playing the kind of opposition (I include the first game against Australia, such was the nature of the game and side that the Wallabies put out) that would allow that to be a fair gauge of who is the better player. Warburton has played Pocock out of a game: in 2010, at the Millenium Stadium, he marked Pocock out of the game, and whilst he didn't contribute massively in terms of offensive turnovers, he's a much more experienced and better player now than he was then.

All three will go. I think O'Brien is hampered by his ability to play across the backline/lack of top class fetching. Rennie could play himself into the starting slot. I'd be surprised, he hasn't really...proven himself in the way Warburton did at the World Cup. And this is the point, aside from who I think deserves it more, it's far more likely for Warburton to start. Firstly, there is the Gatland connection, but more importantly Gatland likes what he likes and is loyal to players who conform to what he wants. Having captained Wales to the World Cup and played against Pocock on numerous occasions, if not as successfully this Summer as in the past, he's got the experience and nous to try and take out one of the three important threats Australia have (the other two being Genia and the running ability of O'Conner/Cooper/Ioane etc.). They will need to target and stop these if they are going to win, and I don't think putting Rennie in because he's in form, or O'Brien in because he's incredible with ball in hand, will help. We could be faced with another Lee Mears/Phil Vickery scenario, so out of depth in one area that it negates all the other good work in other areas.

Warburton was unfit this Summer, but he'd been beasted for over twelve months, from the Polish training camps, World Cup, kept together for the Six Nations, and then rushed back for the Summer tour. It showed, especially in the Second Test, and I feel with O'Brien in the team, and no specialist breakdown operator, a repeat of this scenario is likely, which would be suicide. I'd be delighted if Rennie performed against the Wallabies, he's a very exciting player for Scotland and one who will be around for many years to come, someone, along with Gray, they can build the pack around. I'm not arguing for Warburton's inclusion over him per se, and certainly not just because he's Welsh. But the likelihood is Warburton will start, because of the selection criteria for the Lions. Even when Tipuric was clearly in better shape and form, Warburton was included over him. It may be right or wrong, we've seen both positive and negative results of loyalty to an out of form player (Mike Phillips a good example). Gatland may be experimental with his 3/4s, but he is increasingly conservative as the numbers get lower on the back of the shirt.

You clearly didn't watch any games during the summer tour then. Warburton was blown off the park three times in a row by Pocock. O'Brien outplayed McCaw twice in a row, plus he needed an operation which he attributes to his lack of ball carrying. Rennie outplayed Pocock in the Scotland-Australia game. So what are you basing that on?

miaow wrote:Hmmm I might be wrong then. I just feel that, for both Leinster and Ireland, he's part of a very savvy breakdown unit. Now, hopefully, the Lions will also have this, but I think his intrinsic ability to turn ball over isn't quite up there with Warburton or Rennie. But, as I said, Leinster and Irish fans who watch him closely will likely disagree, and they probably know more about him than I do.

With the greatest respects to both McCaw and O'Brien, Richie isn't what he used to be.

Again, what are you basing this on? McCaw isn't as quick as he once was, but he is still world class at everything else. In the third test he was absolutely fantastic. In the RWC he outplayed Pocock against Australia, who you claim to be the best 7.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You clearly didn't watch any games during the summer tour then. Warburton was blown off the park three times in a row by Pocock. O'Brien outplayed McCaw twice in a row, plus he needed an operation which he attributes to his lack of ball carrying. Rennie outplayed Pocock in the Scotland-Australia game. So what are you basing that on?

Erm, well, ok, yeah, you're right, I didn't. Nice one. The second Test Warburton was outclassed, the third he was injured early on, and the first Test he was hardly 'blown off the park'. I think it's ridiculous to take the, frankly, very special circumstances of the Scotland-Australia game and say that it's fair to compare that one game with the three Wales played. I'm not demeaning the victory, but with one and a half eyes clearly on the first Wales Test four days later, and the conditions it was played in, it is something of an anomaly. Even with that all said, I'd disagree that Rennie outplayed Pocock.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Again, what are you basing this on? McCaw isn't as quick as he once was, but he is still world class at everything else. In the third test he was absolutely fantastic. In the RWC he outplayed Pocock against Australia, who you claim to be the best 7.

I think Richie McCaw once epitomised the rugby player who, regardless of situation or environment, never let his standard drop, inspiring the team to victory, and he is quite possibly the greatest player to have ever played the game. Don't get me wrong, he's still world class. But the proof here is that, with Ireland giving New Zealand a real test, and putting NZ on the back foot, or at least an equal footing, McCaw was unable to dominate the breakdown in the way he once did. Pocock is undeniably a better operator at the breakdown now; again, I disagree that McCaw outplayed him in the World Cup. New Zealand beat up Australia up front, but individually, I wouldn't say McCaw got the better of him. Pocock, over the last two seasons in the Tri-Nations, has proven himself the better out of the two with head-to-head confrontations, although there isn't a lot in it.



Anyway, I think you're just trying to polarise, not sure why, for me suggesting O'Brien isn't a good enough fetcher to start against Pocock? I believe that Warburton is the only 7 available to the Lions at the moment who is proven to be able to compete with the best 7s in the world at the breakdown, and McCaw is one of those. However, an unfit Warburton clearly isn't. He should never have toured, though you can understand the reasoning behind it, twelve months away from the Lions, a good opportunity for Wales to not only get the scalp but also test the waters because many of the team will be on the Lions tour. Warburton will be one of them, and I'd be very surprised if he doesn't start. You obviously differ with your opinion of O'Brien, I still think he's got a little way to go over the ball, but he makes up for this with his strength. Don't accuse me of not watching the games because I have a different opinion to you. I'd say Rennie is far more likely to start, because you need someone to get to the breakdown either quicker or at the same time as Pocock. Tipuric is great at this, he's quicker than Warburton, if not quite as strong, but will suffer due to lack of opportunity with Wales (should have come at least once against Australia). Anyway, I have to say Feckless sums it up perfectly for me. O'Brien is the consummate sub, covering the whole back row, and a beast to come on to up/maintain the intensity and physicality. Ferris adds that bit more than Lydiate, I agree, but I wouldn't be worried about Gatland and any conflict of interest. These Welsh boys are more professional/not as precious as those under Henry, and will accept it if they don't make the tour/first team/captaincy. For me, it's out of BOD and POC; the Roberts/BOD centre pairing reunited is a tantalising prospect, and if POC can stay fit next season, he's an obvious choice to maintain the captaincy.

So did you watch the Ireland-NZ games or not? Did you watch the Scotland game?

You say Warburton has proven he is able to compete with the best 7s in the world.. yet Pocock has outclassed him about 5 times now. What other top 7s has he competed with? Brussow is the only one who comes to mind. Rennie I think had a bigger impact for Scotland than Pocock did for Australia. The conditions are irrelevant in this scenario, he has done something Warburton could not. You say O'Brien has a little way to go when he actually makes a huge number of crucial turnovers in the Ireland games, against NZ, and a top 7 you describe. He outplays McCaw in two games, not just the second test. The NZ press even had a lot of praise for O'Brien and his work at the breakdown, and the NZ fans on these forums.

Also, using the excuse that Warburton is unfit doesn't really work either because O'Brien shouldn't have even been touring. He has needed an operation for ages now and will be out until around November.

I don't think we can really use the Warburton was unfit line guys. It's a bit pathetic. McCaw was playing through hell in the WC and he still outplayed Pocock.

He also said before the tour that he was fine to play...

So if he actually wasn't then he let the team down as far as i'm concerned, a fit Tipuric would have done a much better job.

Shifty wrote:As Gatland is the coach, it probably won't be a Welsh captain.
Ross Ford might be in with a shout.

Errrrrrr no i disagree with you on that one.

I think that because Gatland is the coach we will see a welsh captain. Probably be Warburton. Unless he is inujured. Then we might see a non Welsh Captain.

Jeez, in the world cup and 6 Nations the Irish were slating O'Brien and saying he isn't a good 7, a good fetcher, unlucky because of his versatility, etc... Now it's gone from that, to him out-playing the worlds best (McCaw)/being a Lions starter. Got to be honest, I didn't see the outplaying of McCaw (I missed the 2nd test). This scenario comes just weeks after the claims that Leinster could beat Wales and the All Blacks might I add.

For the ones worried about Gatland being biased; you have a right to be worried. I think it might see our back-row get on the tour and possibly be in the test team (when there are better sixes and eights in the other home nations, no better open-sides though). My personal back-row choice from Wales to go on the tour would be Warbs, Tips and Jones.

"The Irish" weren't slating O'Brien, some of them were. I disagreed with those who did at the time, and believed they were using O'Brien as a scapegoat. He has improved since then anyway, so that is irrelevant. Even some of the NZ fans on here agreed that he outplayed McCaw in the first two tests, it isn't just "the Irish". In fact the NZ press were very impressed with O'Brien and how dangerous he was at the breakdown.

Fair enough if you didn't see it, but many other people did. What has any of this got to do with Leinster?

It'll be Haskell.

Gats helped groom him at Wasps. He was going to have him as captain of the club there before he left.

He's got experience playing against and beating Oz as well as SuperRugby experience.

He's a very smart player who's happy to talk and confident amongst his peers.

He can play 6-8 to the highest standard and is at peak fitness.

You can all come back here and be amazed when i'm proved right next year.

Rory, you sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder mate. Simmer.

miaow wrote:Rory, you sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder mate. Simmer.

Why? For disagreeing with you?

yappysnap wrote:It'll be Haskell.

Gats helped groom him at Wasps. He was going to have him as captain of the club there before he left.

He's got experience playing against and beating Oz as well as SuperRugby experience.

He's a very smart player who's happy to talk and confident amongst his peers.

He can play 6-8 to the highest standard and is at peak fitness.

You can all come back here and be amazed when i'm proved right next year.

He isn't a bad player at all, I think he is a better 7 than Robshaw. England should also try some fetchers here though (Armitage, Ksevic).

I think it's ridiculous to take the, frankly, very special circumstances of the Scotland-Australia game and say that it's fair to compare that one game with the three Wales played. I'm not demeaning the victory, but with one and a half eyes clearly on the first Wales Test four days later, and the conditions it was played in, it is something of an anomaly.

Oh my god Miaw....thats the biggest load of sour grapes ive seen for quite some time!
You play the conditions...Scotland handled it...Australia didnt. Wales very nearly could have beaten Wales but they didnt...and dont try to make Scotlands victory look bad to hide that fact.

Morgannwg wrote:

yappysnap wrote:It'll be Haskell.

Gats helped groom him at Wasps. He was going to have him as captain of the club there before he left.

He's got experience playing against and beating Oz as well as SuperRugby experience.

He's a very smart player who's happy to talk and confident amongst his peers.

He can play 6-8 to the highest standard and is at peak fitness.

You can all come back here and be amazed when i'm proved right next year.

He isn't a bad player at all, I think he is a better 7 than Robshaw. England should also try some fetchers here though (Armitage, Ksevic).

England seem to be against classic fetchers like Armitage and prefer a more physical player at 7. I can't actually remember the last out and out fetcher that we played for more than 1 game.

Maybe he'd be the mid weekers captain, but then Robshaw would be perfect for that.

Too be fair Englands game at the breakdown is very strong now...and i dont think we've missed a fetcher.

We've missed powerhouse ball carriers....

Dan Cole is excellent at the breakdown for England anyway. It isn't just a 7 who does good work at the breakdown.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Dan Cole is excellent at the breakdown for England anyway. It isn't just a 7 who does good work at the breakdown.

Rory, England were so far behind everyone in this area we have obviously gone headlong to improve it....making evereyones job to be strong in that area.....which has workd...but at the detriment to other areas....typical England pah....

From what I have seen, Cole has always been pretty handy at the breakdown though. Didn't he play in the back row in his youth?

If Rennie doesn't start at 7 for the Lions I will be very surprised. Warbs is top class, but not good enough against Pockock.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Dan Cole is excellent at the breakdown for England anyway. It isn't just a 7 who does good work at the breakdown.

Rory, England were so far behind everyone in this area we have obviously gone headlong to improve it....making evereyones job to be strong in that area.....which has workd...but at the detriment to other areas....typical England pah....

I think it was a lot more the old coach that made us so far behind then the players.

Any way i'm not saying it's wrong i,m just pointing out that Eng doesn't do fetchers.

And yes Cole was first a flanker and is still a terrier at the breakdown, Corbs ans Marler are good too.

Its been mentioned many times before now but the backrow is hugely competitive and there will be some big names missing out.

Yeah Rory,

I believe he played 8

Don't forget about the mighty Geth at the breakdown! He'll tour if he manages to get some sort of break; which in the Top 14 he will not.

With Sheridan in the squad he will, they will most likely rotate throughout the season. He'll get more of rest there then he did with Cardiff, then again he never actually played for Cardiff...

Kelly Brown