New season, new Edinburgh team

Second of the Scottish team's modest pre-season focus.

As before, incumbent or probably first choice in bold, other options in brackets:

1. Jacobson (Yapp, Walker, Allan, Cringle)
2. Ford (Titterell, Turner)
3. Nel (Cross, Niven, Hislop)
4. van der Westhuizen (Parker, Gilchrist)
5. Cox (Turnbull, McAlpine)
6. Denton (McInally)
7. Rennie (Grant)
8. Talei (Basilaia, McInally)

9. Rees (Leck, Laidlaw, Black)
10. Laidlaw (Leonard, Hunter, Tonks)
11. T. Visser (Penn, Farndale)
12. Scott (King, Houston)
13. De Luca (Atiga, Tonks, Cairns)
14. Jones (Fife)
15. Brown (Atiga, Tonks, S. Visser, Cairns)

7s players not included (e.g. Clyne) and not all EDPs may be there. As with Glasgow, lots of known unknowns.

Potential problems are obvious - real lack of potential grunt in the boiler room, real drop in quality between first XV and their replacements and 9 may be a weakness.

The backs have an unbelievable amount of potential - the sheer speed of Visser, Brown, Jones, Fife and Farndale is extraordinary. Can Back bring the forwards up to speed and can the backs learn to tackle once in a while? Can potentially the best back row in the Robocop get even better?

Players to watch: Nel, Atiga, Leonard, Farndale and Basilaia.

Gilchrist will start ahead of van der Westhuizen? Also isn't Nel primarily a Tighthead?

Looks a very strong first team anyway, maybe some question marks over the second row but thats about it.

Thanks for kicking the thread off George, but have to disagree with quite a lot of that.

Firstly your forwards are all over the shop; Nel is a TH, Yapp is a loosie. Second row is missing Perry John Parker and the guy signed up from the EDPs whose name escapes me. In the backs you're missing Atiga who is pretty much a utility player, but strongest at 13, 15.

Would post my preferred line up, but posting from phone.

Sorry - I actually did know all of that.
Just goes to show you shouldn't do these things quickly.

I wasn't going to put the EDPs in (I didn't for the Glasgow thread) but your wish is my thingy.

Justified, I'm assuming that yerman is big Robert McAlpine from Stirling County but let me know if I've had yet another Senior Moment.

That's him, turned out a couple of times for us last season and looked OK if a bit lightweight, hopefully they've got him on the Chunk/Nel diet. Pretty sure he signed a full contract, not EDP.

My Edinburgh 23 for the start of next season (assuming VDW is there at the outset, which he won't be):

1.Jacobsen 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.VDW 6.Denton 7.Rennie 8.Talei 9.Rees 10.Laidlaw 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Jones 15.Brown

16.Cross 17.Lawrie 18.Yapp 19.Cox 20.Basilia 21.Leonard 22.Cairns 23.Atiga

Reckon this is going to be a belter of a season.

FES that looks about right, VDW won't be around, so we'll have to see how the locks go in pre-season, happy to start with Gilchrist and Cox. That backrow looks as good as anything I've seen. Plus good back up. Looking forward to next season.

Agreed, we'll probably start with Gilchrist and Cox next season with the new boy, Parker, on the bench (or maybe Turnbull).

Big season for Gilchrist this. If he can fight of competition and make the team, he could even push his way into the Scotland reckoning in place of Ali "Ruck Inspector" Kellock.

I don't rate Rees as much more than a man who might make the odd break,can't kick but can pass

maestegmafia wrote:I don't rate Rees as much more than a man who might make the odd break,can't kick but can pass

Most Edinburgh fans wouldn't disagree with you Maesteg. I think we'd all rather have had Mike Blair for another season.

I don't think that the 9 shirt is Rees' automatically by any stretch. Chris Leck improved exponentially last season (much better than he was at Sale IMHO) and I think should get at least half the gametime, depending on whom Laidlaw works best with.

maestegmafia wrote:I don't rate Rees as much more than a man who might make the odd break,can't kick but can pass

If i was a Cardiff fan i'd prefer him starting over Lloyd Williams

I'd prefer to see Laidlaw controlling the game from scrum-half and Leonard getting plenty of game-time next season.

How many opportunities do you think Fife and Farndale will be getting next season?

Edinburgh, as with Glasgow, have benefited from a considerable increase in their playing budget. It will be interesting to see how both teams react to the expectation that goes hand in hand with an increase in squad investment.

The overall squad depth has improved and I think a couple of their signings are very astute (Atiga, Nel, VDM), however this is balanced with some strange ones (Yapp, Penn). Overall I think the aim should be same as Glasgow, top four Rabo and get out of their group in the Heiny.

The thing I am most looking forward to though is the progression of some of the young Scottish players in the team:

Gilchrist: Tall, athletic lock - if he can add a bit more power in the close season he has all the attributes to be top class operator.

Farndale: Top try scorer in the JWC at 18; I like how the SRU have got him into the Edinburgh system early (he was training with them last season), potential for this to be a breakthrough season.

Leonard: I hope to see Laidlaw revert to 9, no reason why he cant have huge influence there - A Scottish Parra/Yachvilli. Leonard looked good at the JWC and can build on his experiences from last year.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Ali "Ruck Inspector" Kellock.

Every time I see it, this draws a smile.

funnyExiledScot wrote:My Edinburgh 23 for the start of next season (assuming VDW is there at the outset, which he won't be):

1.Jacobsen 2.Ford 3.Nel 4.Gilchrist 5.VDWCox 6.Denton 7.Rennie 8.Talei 9.Rees 10.Laidlaw 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Jones 15.Brown

16.Cross 17.Lawrie 18.Yapp 19.CoxVDW 20.Basilia 21.Leonard 22.Cairns 23.Atiga

Reckon this is going to be a belter of a season.

My only change above ^

I've been watching vdw closely in the super 15 and he looks a decent lock - very physical. He plays 5 for the cheetahs too so will probably have cox as his biggest competition.

Cox had a storming end to the season, was my pick in the forwards in the hk semi, but vdw's power and ruck hitting will be a real asset when he comes in October.

Luckily Wp nel is joining at the end of July!

Nel is 5'11'' and 19 stones of Loeriesfontein mad dog. Cannot wait.

On a serious note, any team last season that scored 8 tries more than Glasgow (playoff qualifiers) but conceded 42 more in the regular season like Edinburgh did has, at best, temperament problems and at worst, coaching problems.

Bradley can't dine out on a Heineken Cup semi for long. He has to kick them into consistency.
Neil Back should definitely help with that.

Completely agree GC. I said it all last season, Edinburgh's HC form was a welcome development, but Bradley has much to do to convince me that Edinburgh are moving in the right direction. Consistency is everything in rugby, and the players just seemed to switch off when not on HC duty. Not acceptable, particularly now that I'm a season ticket holder.

I just can't believe that Neil Back will accept the same sort of lapses in concentration and intensity. There has been no more intense a player in my life time than Neil Back. He was a fericious competitor and completely focused. Exactly the sort of charater that Gilchrist, Denton, Scott et al will benefit from exposure to.

Agreed regarding Back and consistency.

I'm surprised how late the international players are coming back - they're to report back at the start of august but that's only a few weeks before the first pre season game!

I suspect we won't see the internationalists until at least the 2nd rabbo game or something.

George Carlin, you’re spot on about our defensive record. Appalling is too kind a word for it.

We talk a lot of about temperament and concentration, but here’s another word we don’t use that often – alignment. Specifically, an obvious lack of it in a defensive sense. If you watch Glasgow play, their defensive alignment, particularly in their own 22, is superb. It hardly ever slips. Every man knows his place and duty, and there are a few key players that keep bawling orders and telling the others where to go. They are drilled to perfection. That, along with the relentless aggression, is why Glasgow’s defence is scarily good.

Edinburgh’s, on the other hand, is scarily bad because they don’t seem to have this to any great degree. When I watched them last season, they were all over the shop the minute the defensive line was breached. Organisation and communication were poor, and without these it is far easier to let lapses of concentration sneak in. This is down to coaching, in my view. I don’t down the levels of commitment and aggression. The talent is obviously there as well – the Denton, Rennie, Talei backrow is one of the best of its kind on the northern hemisphere. Edinburgh have performed bravely with a pretty powderpuff pack in recent years, but the organisation just isn’t there a lot of the time.

Hopefully they can turn that around this season.

Anyone going to the open evening on the 1st of August? Should be good to hear what the coaches have to say and see the new signings up close. Looking forward to seeing how much of a beast WP Nel is!

In my diary, but 6 for 6.30 might be a wee bit tight depending how work goes. I can always get a tram along which might save some time. Oh hold on maybe not - 22 then.

Sadly I can't make it to the open day - wedding anniversary.....not sure it's what the missus has in mind!

She's got a big season ahead of her rugby wise!

I see that Laidlaw has been appointed captain again - probably the easiest decision Bradley will ever make!

http://edinburghrugby.org/news/edinburgh-news/4321-laidlaw-re-appointed-edinburgh-rugby-captain

Roddy Grant and Sean Cox Vice-captains.

Predictable decision on Laidlaw. I guess he may have considered Ford, but better leaving him with the twin duties and captaining Scotland and learning to throw.

Slightly surprised about Sean Cox. Always struck me as slightly unhinged.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Predictable decision on Laidlaw. I guess he may have considered Ford, but better leaving him with the twin duties and captaining Scotland and learning to throw.

Slightly surprised about Sean Cox. Always struck me as slightly unhinged.

I think that he gives the Embra pack that bit of niggly-nasty that they are otherwise lacking Don't rate him much as a player, altho I thought he improved as the season progressed

I agree that he brings niggle, and he does hit the rucks with genuine intent to harm, but he doesn't strike me as vice captain material, and despite some good form last season, I still think Gilchrist and VDW will be the preferred lock pairing come the end of the season.

I think Cox had a good season, and was one of our better players against Toulouse and Ulster in the HK. He did have a tendency to punch people on occasion but perhaps he's been given more responsibility to try to stop him doing that.

He did add a hard edge to our pack though, which was desperately lacking.

Hopefully Neil Back can bring out that hard edge in a couple of other players. I can't imagine that Nel or VDW are soft, and I reckon that big Georgian fellow knows how to handle himself.

Denton needs to cut his hair. Far to foppish for a supposed hard man. Also reckon some Full Metal Jacket treatment needed on Gilchrist: this is my gun, there are many like it but this one is my own......

We have got a few hard nuts now at Edinburgh which is good. Between Nel, VDW, Cox, Basiliia and Ian the Fijian we shouldn't be bullied in the forwards.

Atiga is an absolute unit in the backs but we're maybe still a bit soft there.

RDW_Scotland wrote:We have got a few hard nuts now at Edinburgh which is good. Between Nel, VDW, Cox, Basiliia and Ian the Fijian we shouldn't be bullied in the forwards.

Atiga is an absolute unit in the backs but we're maybe still a bit soft there.

Any chat about how he is getting on in pre-season after his sabattical of a couple of years (?) away from rugby?

Not heard anything, but it's early days in pre season and they will probably only be starting doing rugby stuff around now. From the look of things on Twitter it has all been fitness.

Guy at my rugby team saw him in the gym though and said he was a total monster, so he's obviously kept in shape.

We saw some huge crowds for the H Cup at Murrayfield. What is the likelihood we'll see some of those stay on supporting Edinburgh this season?

MBTGOG wrote:We saw some huge crowds for the H Cup at Murrayfield. What is the likelihood we'll see some of those stay on supporting Edinburgh this season?

Slim, Munsty, they're a fickle lot, the Morningsiders

I'm not overly confident - outside of the regulars Edinburgh fans go away just as easily as they suddenly turn up. Edinburgh have been fairly quiet about season ticket sales, unlike Glasgow, which suggests that there isn't going to be a step change in new season ticket holders.

As like anywhere though a winning team will bring in the crowds - if we make a good start to the season we really should be aiming for 10 000 for the first HK game and then who knows from there.

What has disappointed me is that it looks like they are raising ticket prices by a fiver. It doesn't sound like much but 15 quid for an advanced purchase ticket is much more appealing than 20 quid. 20 quid is more than some SPL football grounds charge. And 25 quid on the gate really isn't going to help our crowd walkup.

If they kept it 15 quid advanced and 20 walkup, maybe even just raise it for the HK to 20 and 25, I think we would see a big improvement in crown numbers.

So in summary, the potential increased crowd from last years success has probably been offset by the higher ticket prices!

I'm not so sure the prices will have a massive impact. I think 20/25 is still pretty good value, and holding the ST's at last year's prices should boost those. No idea how many we've sold though hopefullly find out next Wednesday.

One point that does disappoint me is that we don't seem to be targetting the student market enough - 70k plus Uni students in Edinburgh, a marketing drive during Freshers Week with say term time only ST's could really boost numbers. 1% of that number is 700 onto the crowd.

I have to disagree with justified, I think the increase in ticket price will make a difference and put people off going. For the size of Edinburgh the amount that turn up to game is shocking and having ticket prices at £25 on the gate won't encourage many to come along when they can stay at home and watch the game on bbc alba etc.
I used to be a season ticket holder for Edinburgh about 6 years ago but due to work and rugby commitments i can't make it along often and £25 on the day would put me off going unless there is a drastic increase in performance from last year.
When i lived out in oz for a bit i went to watch the aussie rules quite a bit, what encouraged me to go was how cheap the tickets were, at most it was £10 for an adult but often would be £5 and this drew in a full house of 50000 at the telstra dome often for meaningless games

I feel if they dropped the prices they would quite probably increase in sales as it would encourage more fans to come along to murrayfield on a regular basis.

I do agree about the student population and have mentioned that before that the sru/edinburgh marketing are missing out a huge trick by not going after the student market and getting them along on a friday night.

I definitely disagree with justified sinner. Indeed it has been proven many times - when the ticket prices have been kept low for the big games, a large crowd turns up.

I know I would be put off coming on the day if I had to pay 25 quid.

Really don't see why they've increased it - they don't make much money from ticket sales anyway over the season, and they must know that they need to build on the core support before they can consider price increases.

Of course all of this could just be a marketing ploy to get people to buy season tickets!

Hopefully they can offset the increases with marketing ploys and discount offers during the course of the season, once they've maximised season ticket sales, which I assume they're trying to do this summer.

Increasing the crowds at the Pro games is fundamental to the development of Scottish rugby, so I hope they know what they're doing.

What I've never understood is, why Edinburgh Rugby don't give more cheap tickets to the schools in Edinburgh. And not just the fee-paying rugby playing schools but all of them.

While you may make a loss on every child's ticket you sell/give-away, the parents are still going to have to come along and pay for a ticket.

Plus you'll get kids interested in rugby and as importantly, Edinburgh rugby. More chance they'll ask for the strip for Christmas or remain interested once they've left school.

Agree with the student market as well, how about a £15 student ticket and you get a free beer at the Stadium?

Student tickets are already only a tenner! And to be fair they are pretty good with kids tickets - frequently give tickets away to kids and have things like 10 kids go free with every adult.

Problem is that you then have loads of screaming kids sitting near you!

I occasionally find the kid thing a little bit irrrating as well and sometimes quite funny.

Sorry if my views on pricing didn't meet approval. I think that part of this may be to try and boost ST's. I was previously happy to buy 15 quid tickets on a game by game basis, there will always be a few I have to miss, but now it makes more sense to buy a ST 9+ games and I'm saving. So as an incentive works for me.

Pricing is competitive if you look at Edinburgh football, Hibs 22 most games 28 A games Celtic, Hearts; Hearts complex structure but 18 for poor tickets to 35 for all games, with some differentials for A games, plus its Hearts so every ticket however bought has some kind of booking charge. Against those two Edinburgh Rugby look favourable.

Only thing I would change is the walk up price, say 22 instead of 25.

As regards seriously cutting prices, something the Welsh seem to be doing, then I don't think that works so well as McKie sold of a lot of the secondary revenue generators; merchandise to Greaves, catering outsourced.

I do accept the arguement that we ought to be growing numbers to grow revenue mid term, but think that performance will have more impact on that than the price of a pint on a ticket.

HK fixtures and dates announced at midday....

Ideally I'd like Munster or Racing at home first and Racing away near the end. The reasoning being I think we need a good start and I think we can beat Munster and Racing at home, maybe even Sarries. If we get an away game to start with I can't see us winning.

Also it would be good to get Racing away in near the end because hopefully, like last year, their attention will have turned to the domestic league and we can sneak a win again! Although I suspect they will be desperate to beat us this year after what we did to them last year.

Hk fixtures:

Saracens H - Saturday 13th October 1.30pm
Munster A - Sunday 21st October 12.45pm
Racing A - Saturday 8th December 8pm GMT
Racing H - Friday 14th December 8pm
Munster H - 11/12/13 January
Saracens A - 18/19/20 January

That's a tough start that - we really need to win at least two of the first 3 games to stand a chance and it looks a tough task. HUGE first game against Saracens at home though - can't wait!

Shame we finish with Saracens away but I'd be pleasantly surprised if we were still in it at that point.

So excited!!!

Problem with Sarries away is that they'll probably make us play in Burkina Faso, Belize, the Falklands or somewhere equally ludicrous. I think we'll need to go into that last fixture needing very little from the game. Hopefully we'll have taken maximums from the prior two home fixtures.

Slightly annoying that Munster away is a Sunday lunchtime fixture - less keen on travelling to that now that I'll likely have to scarper back in the evening.

On ticketing, no more discounts for students. Young/ middle aged professionals are the squeezed middle here, the forgotten class. Discounts for us please!!

Had a look at flights to Limerick and you have to leave on the Friday and come back on the Monday - Sunday flight is too early and they don't fly on a Saturday for some reason! 75 quid for flights.

Quick look at Paris for Racing - 85 quid Friday to Sunday

funnyExiledScot wrote:Problem with Sarries away is that they'll probably make us play in Burkina Faso, Belize, the Falklands or somewhere equally ludicrous. I think we'll need to go into that last fixture needing very little from the game. Hopefully we'll have taken maximums from the prior two home fixtures.

Slightly annoying that Munster away is a Sunday lunchtime fixture - less keen on travelling to that now that I'll likely have to scarper back in the evening.

On ticketing, no more discounts for students. Young/ middle aged professionals are the squeezed middle here, the forgotten class. Discounts for us please!!

Good job you remembered to include yourself there, fES!

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's a tough start that - we really need to win at least two of the first 3 games to stand a chance and it looks a tough task. HUGE first game against Saracens at home though - can't wait!

Shame we finish with Saracens away but I'd be pleasantly surprised if we were still in it at that point.

So excited!!!

Do you not think edinburgh have a good chance of getting out of that group? Id be very surprised if edinburgh weren't still in with a shout of qualifying from the group come the last group game.

Very tough for Edinburgh in the HC.Possibly the worst schedule they could get.

Essentially the opposite of what you wanted RDW.

Looking forward to Pool 1. Especially the key opener.

I'm just comparing last year with this year - we rode out luck against Racing Metro, and Munster and Saracans are tougher prospects than Cardiff and London Irish were - especially away.

I also think we've lost the surprise factor too - teams won't be taking us lightly.

I don't think we'll top the group, judging by some of the other groups we won't be the best runners up, and would be delighted with Amlin qualification