Not Good News For Olympics

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With Nadal's withdrawal from the Olympics quite a few may be rubbing their hands together in glee at another draw opening up with golden opportunities being handed out yet again. But it isn't really such good news.

Does Federer want another * attached if he manages to fill an important gap in his achievements? Just when Olympic tennis has gained a little credibility by having a number one ranked player win gold does it need another Massu, Kafelnikov, Rossit or Mercir? (no disrespect) clutching a medal? When everyone knows a certain player will be resting at home (no doubt polishing their very own shiny gold Olympic medal) and will re-emerge (hopefully...) fresh for the US Open. Will it make the Olympics suddenly feel like very hard work? Will dodging the rain, fighting for a gap under the roof (when Andy isn't playing), playing 6 matches including one 5 setter... all for a measly 750 points and no trophy leave the winner feeling a little short changed? Will doing all this whilst everyone else is watching something more riveting like clay pigeon shooting or dressage leave the players feeling a little neglected?

Nadal withdrawing from the Olympics is not good news... But somehow I feel a little happier now.

hawkeye wrote:

laverfan wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

laverfan wrote:
Whatever be the reasons for his withdrawal, denigrating others who are still competing, which is the primary thrust of this article, despite all the empty words, is irksome, and a repeated tactic that HE uses.

This is an exaggeration, clearly.

Just search for hawkeye and Murray on 606v2, if you please.

laverfan? Huh! Denigrating others? Who? Where? By saying they will have to compete in the Olympics whilst Nadal is injured? And what has this got to do with anything I may have said about Andy Murray. Why ask others to search my name with Murray? If you disagree with something I've said about Murray does it mean you have to out of loyalty disagree with everything I say about everything? Are you by providing a link asking others to do this. Huh again. I thought you were a moderator... and more important nice!

Is it only moderators who have to be "nice" or considerate of the impact of their posts on others? Laverfan is tennis fan, poster and moderator. She has made extremely valid points.

Not good news for Lukas Rosol either that his favourite tennis opponent is not playing at the Olympics.

hawkeye wrote:... Huh! Denigrating others? Who? Where?

Just when Olympic tennis has gained a little credibility by having a number one ranked player win gold does it need another Massu, Kafelnikov, Rossit or Mercir?

What does this mean, HE?

Let me give you a couple of examples (G=Gold, S=Silver, B=Bronze medals respectively)

PS: forgot Mecir's year

1988 Seoul (G=Mecir, S=Mayotte, B=Gilbert/Edberg - Sep 1988) - Seeding Order, the first 10 seeds were - Edberg (ATP #3), Mayotte (ATP #10), Mecir (ATP #12), Leconte (ATP #11), Gilbert (ATP #15), Sanchez (ATP #21), Jarryd (ATP #19), Chesnokov (ATP #17), Cahill (ATP #23), Hlasek (ATP #25) ( Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=19.09.1988&r=1&c=# ).

1992 Barcelona (G-Rosset, S-Arrese, B-Ivanisevic - Jul 1992) - Seeding order, the first 10 seeds were - Courier (ATP#1), Edberg (ATP #2), Sampras (ATP #3), Ivanisevic (ATP #4), Becker (ATP #6), Chang (ATP #7), Forget (ATP #8), Stich (ATP #9), Ferreira (ATP #13), Muster (ATP #17) ( Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=20.07.1992&r=1&c=# ).

1996 Atlanta (G-Agassi, S-Bruguera, B-Paes - Jul 1996) - Seeding order, the first 10 seeds were - Agassi (ATP #3), Ivanisevic (ATP #7), Enqvist (ATP #10), Washington (ATP #12), Ferreira (ATP #13), Costa (ATP #18), Boetsch (ATP #17), Rosset (ATP #16), Siemerink (ATP #20), Stoltenberg (ATP #21) (Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=08.07.1996&r=1&c=# ).

2000 Sydney (G-Kafelnikov, S-Haas, B-Pasquale - Sep 2000) - Seeding order, the first 10 seeds were - Safin (ATP #2), Kuerten (ATP #3), Norman (ATP #4), Hewitt (ATP #7), Kafelnikov (ATP #8), Corretja (ATP #9), Henman (ATP #10), Ferrero (ATP #12), Kiefer (ATP #13), Squillari (ATP #11) (Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=18.09.2000&r=1&c=# ).

2004 Athens (G-Massu, S-Fish, B-Gonzalez - Aug 2004) - Seeding order, the first 10 seeds were - Federer (ATP #1), Roddick (ATP #2), Moya (ATP #4), Henman (ATP #5), Ferrero (ATP #6), - , Schuettler (ATP #11), Grosjean (ATP #12), Safin (ATP #13), Massu (ATP #14) ( Source - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=09.08.2004&r=1&c=# ) .

hawkeye wrote:By saying they will have to compete in the Olympics whilst Nadal is injured?

Why is Nadal's participation necessary to ordain an event into the annals of Tennis history? Nadal's withdrawal should be considered an unfortunate circumstance, and nothing else. I also provided a very specific quote from Nadal on his view of the importance of Olympics to him, irrespective of your subjective interpretations of the importance of Olympics to Nadal.

hawkeye wrote:And what has this got to do with anything I may have said about Andy Murray. Why ask others to search my name with Murray? If you disagree with something I've said about Murray does it mean you have to out of loyalty disagree with everything I say about everything?

Look at my examples. I am disagreeing with you on this specific subject. I post my views on specific articles for my views on those. The Murray example was to provide a context for your views being myopic and jaundiced.

hawkeye wrote:Are you by providing a link asking others to do this. Huh again. I thought you were a moderator... and more important nice!

No. I am illustrating, for IMBL, very specifically what he needs to look for.

I am being nice. I am arguing my viewpoint logically. Just posted my research to lend 'credibility' to Olympics by giving you ATP seeds (which you, incidentally, refused despite my earlier comment to that effect).

I am surprised you still insist on carrying your initial viewpoint despite information that has been provided so far to you.

carrieg4 wrote:Is it only moderators who have to be "nice" or considerate of the impact of their posts on others? Laverfan is tennis fan, poster and moderator. She has made extremely valid points.

Way to go laverfan!

lydian wrote:Well you know Nadal, Hawkeye.

Cast your mind back to the last troubles in 2009 and that weird loss to Delpo at Miami, the way he was listless in the match hitting nothing balls - with a lot of family members there watching him which was unusual. It transpired his parents had separated after the AO win he had just secured.

Nadal 2 years later comments one the effects it had on him here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/rafaelnadal/8704892/Rafael-Nadal-family-crisis-destroyed-my-body-and-soul.html

What's clear is that yes he had 'body issues', but his mind was all over the place. He ascribes the losses at FO and Wimbledon withdrawal to those family troubles - as he says, he was simply unable to compete.

Normally we might scoff at this but everyone knows how tightly knit the Nadal clan are. When most other kids at 13-14 would leave to go to academies in Barcelona or Miami, etc, Nadal stayed at home in Majorca. He's commented many times how his family are his rock and he more than many other players, relies on heart and mind to play his matches.

So...my point? I think there could be another 'crisis' in his family, after all his parents got back together last year but maybe it hasn't worked. Toni says its not his knees and he doesn't tend to suffer injuries elsewhere. I also think the clay season took a lot out of him, especially the FO - and I wonder if he was fighting the personal issue there too, having had 6 weeks off in Feb he did seem to get mentally worn quickly during the clay season. After winning FO (where his dad was very emotional about the win...) he was completely listless at Halle despite FO not being that hard to win across 7 rounds. Then Wimbledon.

It's all supposition but it wouldn't surprise me if another family breakdown has taken the wind out of his sails again. Not to say his knees aren't an issue but perhaps not an the primary issue for withdrawal. If he could withdraw from Wimb09 for personal reasons he could do the same with Olympics.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/london-olympics-2012/news/Rafael-Nadal-sad-to-miss-once-in-lifetime-chance/articleshow/15081353.cms

I have hestitated on commenting too much on Nadal because I don't want some of my cynicism to upset Nadal fans, especially those like Lydian whom I respect as a poster and really enjoy reading. But then I thought it is crazy not to be honest about some of my reactions on a public forum and silly to think I would offend anyone because Lydian's comment and above and some of my reaction below is exactly the kind of exchange I would expect to have with a friend over a glass of wine and no feelings bruised - in other words peace to HE and Lydian!!

I have posted the link above because what Nadal says here is in direct contradiction to Toni Nadal's inference on Spanish radio that Nadal is suffering some new injury or some emotional turmoil - it is yet another smoke and mirrors job like 2009 when we were told that Nadal was on the point of his knees breaking down, only to be informed later that the main problem was he was emotionally burnt out.

I find it strange that over all other coaches, Toni is so loquacious about his charge. I find it very odd and not a little disturbing that a 26year old man is still happy for his uncle to micro manage all the press releases in this way. I don't like the PR team surrounding Rafa. I find it very strange that complete strangers seem to feel they 'know Rafa' - but I take my hat off to the PR team for a certain brilliance in managing this. You only have to google Sebastien Nadal slamming his fist and contorting his face at the final of Wimbledon 2011 to realize that the carefully scripted 'it matters who you are not what you win' is a total sham - it's all about the winning for all of them, much as I expect it is with the rest of the top guys. Don't even get me started on the 'humble champion' - why do you need him to be? I think Nadal's behaviour with Rosol, threatening a sit down protest at WTF in a match with Berdych(?) and numerous other occasions give the lie to this self deprecating claim - he knows he is the best, and why shouldn't he? I think the real Rafa is the one you see on court - the guy that will demand it all goes to his pace and I don't understand, furthermore, why Nadal fans don't question this 'sincerity' when the pattern after a loss is always the same - 1) press conference where he hints there may have been a problem but then says in a self effacing way that he doesn't want to talk about it - sometimes if this is accepted too readily, he enquires whether the journalist saw the match (AO 2010 lots of leg clutching at change of ends) of course then he doesn't need to say anymore, it's pretty obvious the poor lamb should have been stretched off after the first set!!! 2) a week or so after claim fractured foot, bad knees, mental turmoil - but actually get uncle to do so, or tame journalist, or take up publishing overture and ghost writer will obligingly set the 'record straight'.

So no, you none of you know Nadal - Toni has micro managed his career very well indeed and the continual implication that he is about to break down is quite frankly b***s**t - does he look like someone who is going to? Sometimes he carries a niggle - who doesn't. It is no secret that Nadal and his team would like the tour manipulated to suit their boy - more clay events, shorter schedule, two year ranking etc, etc and this manipulation of news and how it is leaked is 1) to maximise sponsorship endorsements by creating the myth of the 'humble, beleaguered warrior' and 2) to try and force change they have vociferously demanded.

And before you exclaim, with horror, that no-one could be that Machivellian please ask yourselves whether it is normal to push a small boy in the way that Toni did, for his family to allow that to happen that a small child could be verbally bullied to make him tougher - to make him a champion, at any cost to his childhood and to his self esteem. Rafael Nadal is, and always has been, the creation of Uncle Toni with the express consent of his mother and father. Could you do it?

And lastly, and I do have a great deal of experience in this field. The book 'Rafa' would have come about because publishers looking to cash in while someone is 'hot' would have approached Nadal to commission the book before another publisher had the same bright idea. These mid career autobiographies are always commissioned by a publisher to try and find the optimum time to strike. The ghost writer's job will be to nuture the image that Nadal's PR team wants - it is a collaborative marketing exercise between publisher and subject because that is what will sell the best. This kind of biography should never, ever be confused with a more academic biography that really seeks to understand the subject and not just accept the line that all have decided on to make the protagonist more saleable.

Phew......rant over. Thanks for listening, if you did.

One last thing.........put a good bet on Nadal to win the US Open.

Well, time please, may I be amongst the first to say that that I - for one - certainly did listen. And I could never describe what you have written as a 'rant' ; more a very carefully-constructed, thoughtful and expertly-written analysis.

That's not the same as me saying I agree with all that you say. In fact there are points I would gladly debate - if it were not for the fact that I'm about to settle down for the final round of the Open golf ...

But two general thoughts do spring to mind for now :

1. Rafa is so often compared to Borg, not least for their respective stunning records on clay. But Borg seemingly went about his business with remarkably little fuss, and in between major tournaments we heard little from him or his camp. It was all about what happened on court rather than off it. Admittedly the world of media is so very different today, with so many journos and broadcasters chasing stories and looking for scoops virtually by the hour.

2. You make a solid point in saying that none of us actually know Nadal. We do at least see with our own eyes what he can do on a tennis court, and when at his very best he is a very very special player. But with all the peripheral stuff that has become an integral (and, at times, overrriding) part of his life, I can't help wondering whether his career could ultimately be remembered as much for the amount of time and effort that went into his 'image management' and questionable behaviour when under pressure in various key matches, as for his actual success as a truly outstanding and hugely talented tennis player.

And yes, I too see him as a very strong favourite for the upcoming USO.

A very good, well thought out and as always eloquently written post TP
I can't reply in full right now as strangely enough I'm about to go out and play tennis

The Nadal 'situation' is very complex, perhaps more so than readily makes itself apparent. As you say none of us know him. The way he was brought up combined with the bullying, and loquacious as you describe, nature of Uncle Toni are key factors in the person we see today. None of us can know the influence of being brought up within a closely knit, somewhat sheltered and large Balearic family. Let's not forget Spanish culture is so different from our own. Its very macho, all about winning and being dominant but within an air of respect, some of that linked to strong Catholic values/influence, some to Spanish family culture. It's a weird mix and I've seen it at close quarters as my parents haved lived in a small Spanish village for 15 years, I've also worked with companies over there quite extensively. For the emerging Nadal all this must have created an unusual set of drivers within him...the need to win, winning instilled in him by all the strong male dominant characters around him including his Spanish football team hero uncle Miguel Angel but then juxtaposed by his mother trying to shepherd him with values of respect and humility. Indeed, I wonder how much his mother baulked against his island confined - remember he didnt go to far flung academies as others do - overly sporting influenced upbringing where he had much to live up to, with his values being defined ever more by sporting achievement? Infact I wonder if this caused a cataclysmic split between her and her husband in later years over the way Nadal was brought up and controlled by Toni? I do agree Toni's loquaciousness is OTT and I wonder if all this plays on Rafa's mind more than we know. Perhaps Toni forgets he's dealing with a man now, not the 10 yr old boy anymore. Or perhaps he feels he's taking the pressure off Rafa by acting as his spokesman. Either way, we've seen that Nadal is not as comfortable with his relationship with Toni the past 12 months...perhaps getting tired of being controlled as he was.

So this complex mix of upbringing has probably led to a rather complex boy/man. If I get time later on, work notwithstanding, I'll give further thought later on what I feel has happened to him over the years and what we are seeing with him now. Out of all the top players I actually think and genuinely feel Nadal is the most interesting with everything around him. Some of what you write I don't disagree with but the reasons underpinning may be different. I think when you say Nadal is the creation of Toni it is perhaps a little disingenuous to him...he is the one with innate talent no doubt, talent is talent and you cant forgeva silk purse from a sow's ear (I wont say the expression we use for that in the North...something about not being able to polish something...lol) but Toni of course helped shape and nurture that and embued him with a set of on court tactics. But I feel there is a struggle within Nadal...the battle between the on court beast that has been drummed into him and the off court sensitive boy his mother perhaps knows better. The battle between public sporting arrogance and private respect for family, etc. Does Nadal ever feel he can actually be himself? Indeed who is the real Nadal? Do we know? But over all this, I still believe when a family issue crops up it rocks his tennis world to the core because of the complex set of emotions and thoughts it releases.

Anyway, its time for tennis on this gloriously sunny non-jet stream day...

One last thing.........put a good bet on Nadal to win the US Open.

Not in the business of throwing money down the sewers!

Hi lags and Lydian thanks for your generous responses, and when you both have a mo, love to debate some more probably tomorrow because going to take myself off to garden with book and large gin and tonic and beloved dog!

Just quickly wanted to respond to something you said Lydian:

Lydian wrote:I think when you say Nadal is the creation of Toni it is perhaps a little disingenuous to him...he is the one with innate talent no doubt, talent is talent and you cant forgeva silk purse from a sow's ear (I wont say the expression we use for that in the North...something about not being able to polish something...lol) but Toni of course helped shape and nurture that and embued him with a set of on court tactics. But I feel there is a struggle within Nadal...the battle between the on court beast that has been drummed into him and the off court sensitive boy his mother perhaps knows better. The battle between public sporting arrogance and private respect for family, etc. Does Nadal ever feel he can actually be himself? Indeed who is the real Nadal? Do we know? But over all this, I still believe when a family issue crops up it rocks his tennis world to the core because of the complex set of emotions and thoughts it releases.

I absolutely applaud Nadal's innate talent, athleticism and competitive fire and do believe that these are all his. I am sure with less a less draconian upbringing, he would still have had these qualities in abundance and if he had wanted to be, would still be the tennis champion we see today, or maybe he would be a golfer?

When I say that Rafael Nadal is Toni Nadal's creation I really mean the public Nadal. (though of course I recognise he has been a phenomenal coach, and that there was an inevitability about the sporting career chosen because it had been ordained by Toni) This has been as much a cash cow for the Nadal clan as the career winnings - his public image has been a very carefully thought out negative image of Federer's - the swashbuckling warrior against the ice cool fencer - fire against ice. It has been sold as courage over a bit of effete pretty talent, and yet which one of them has never gone away to lick his wounds when all was going pear shaped? I just think the press and punters are lazy about stereotyping players and not actually making a judgement on what is actually happening.

The branding of Nadal as hot ladies man with the steamy video with Shakira and the terribly uncomfortable looking underwear advert with whatisname are further examples of contradiction. If this really is a very shy lad who has always had the same girlfriend, one from his home town etc, etc - then what is he doing getting his kit off in this way and why is she happy about it? One of the images we are being sold here is wrong - or they both are.
They both though contribute to selling a marketable image to maximize all the endorsements. That is all sensible economics, but we are asked to believe in this character in the way we are not asked to invest in other players - it all reminds me of the worst type of politics, with the same intimacy and exclusivity granted to certain favoured sections of the press that we have just witnessed our politicians being rightly held to account for. Okay so this doesn't impact on us in the same way, but we should recognise we are being sold a line.

This is, after all, the same team that set Bodo up to podcast last week that the knees had moved into terminal decline and then set about sending out contradictory messages in other media. Was this a ploy to foreground Nadal's name in the press, to keep him as the important player in the public mind when talk should have centred on Murray and Federer after an historic Wimbledon as talk did on Nadal after an unprecedented 7th RG? I think this last point is the one that really focuses on Hawkeye's opening post - if Federer, Djokovic or Murray were missing the games there would be a piece in the press and then everyone would move on and concentrate on the players who were actually competing at the games, and rightly so. By spreading confusion and contradictory stories, Toni has once again foregrounded his nephew's name over and above the athletes actually competing which keeps him at the forefront of even the most casual tennis watchers minds, or sports fans in general and so ensures that he remains a very hot marketable property and a very nice little earner for Team Nadal!

I have to disagree with you TP on few points there, and strongly too.
I am on my phone currently so will explain in more detail when I get home on my computer.

Anyway for now I can say you have totally over exaggerated the need of money for Nadal. He is already very rich.
Secondly I think you have misinterpreted Spanish culture, it is very different from England.
Like Lydian I have stayed in Spain for some time, and I completely agree with what Lydian says. What may be weird and PR friendly in England is seen as normal in Spain, the emphasised values, respect and being humble.
I can understand someone from another country and culture being a bit cynical, I can't blame you for it.

Anyway as I said I'll expand more this evening

It Must Be Love wrote:

What may be weird and PR friendly in England is seen as normal in Spain, the emphasised values, respect and being humble.
I can understand someone from another country and culture being a bit cynical, I can't blame you for it.

If Spanish people are so much 'better' than us in the UK, why are so many of their sportsmen cynical and unapologetic cheats? Cheating in sport in Spain is acceptable and natural - so it seems a bit perverse to try to spin it the way you're doing.

This isn't directed at Nadal exactly, but he was on the list, so hey.

djlovesyou wrote:
If Spanish people are so much 'better' than us in the UK.

It's not about cultures being 'superior' or 'better.' It is possible to argue some cultures are more liberated/free/others traditional etc.

djlovesyou wrote:
Cheating in sport in Spain is acceptable and natural

That, my friend, is a very very bold claim.

djlovesyou wrote:
This isn't directed at Nadal exactly, but he was on the list, so hey.

According to who? Le Monde is as reliable as Daily Mirror... still remember the Fernando Torres signs for Manchester United headline lol
They also claimed the whole Spanish football team, and basketball team and athletics team are guilty. Funnily enough they have taken down the article from their website now...

It Must Be Love wrote:I have to disagree with you TP on few points there, and strongly too.
I am on my phone currently so will explain in more detail when I get home on my computer.

Anyway for now I can say you have totally over exaggerated the need of money for Nadal. He is already very rich.
Secondly I think you have misinterpreted Spanish culture, it is very different from England.
Like Lydian I have stayed in Spain for some time, and I completely agree with what Lydian says. What may be weird and PR friendly in England is seen as normal in Spain, the emphasised values, respect and being humble.
I can understand someone from another country and culture being a bit cynical, I can't blame you for it.

Anyway as I said I'll expand more this evening

Well I look forward to it IMBL, but I have to warn you that you Nadal fans can't have it both ways, that is to say you cannot claim on one hand that he is intensely private and shy and so reserved, hating a public spectacle and on the other that you are fully cognisant with his raison d'etre because you've read the book, seen all the press conferences, watched all the matches, have a Spanish auntie, etc etc and therefore understand his tortured soul to all (do continue to speak to me Rafa fans!)

I understand what you say about culture but I think this is reflected in manners rather than in essence.

Anyway, these posts are really me saying that I don't believe Nadal has a career threatening injury - I think he is off form and he will usually opt out of playing when he is off form and everyone generally then spends months agonising over whether he will be forced to retire early - he won't! I would have taken any bet you cared to wager that he would miss the Olympics once he lost to Rosol and as soon as the camp started making noises, knew that it was a certainty - why did we need the count down and the will he, won't he?

It Must Be Love wrote:

That, my friend, is a very very bold claim.

Not really. Spanish cheat after Spanish cheat gets exposed in a whole manner of sports. When they come back after the ban, they're always welcomed back as if they've done nothing wrong.

Cheating is a normal part of Spanish sport, and those that are caught cheating are not thought of any less by the sporting public.

To Spanish sporting fans and sportsmen, the end always justifies the means. Win at all costs.

djlovesyou, I think you're putting words in IMBL's mouth there to make the generalised point you wanted to about Spanish sport and Nadal. IMBL didn't say Spanish people are better than Brits. Just their culture is very different, which it absolutely is - and for one thing is much more family centred. You decide if that's better, worse or same.

TP why do you say Rafa is a cash cow for the Nadal clan? Toni takes no salary for coaching Rafael, nor ever has. As a 50:50 stake owner in the family Window/Glass business with Rafa's dad he earns his money that way. Indeed an interview with Toni went:

Toni realised very early on that his nephew had it in him to be a champion and he therefore decided to take control of his career when the boy was 10 years old. “Not because I wanted to live off tennis, because I don’t charge a penny to coach my nephew, but because the family situation made it possible” he points out. At the same time he points out that nobody has given up their jobs as a result of the champion’s successes. “His dad works more than ever since he not only looks after his own affairs, but those of his son as well.” he stresses.

The family were relatively well off before so Toni was able to devote time to coaching Rafa.

No one is saying Rafa is shy nor do I think he is sold as being 'shy'. Humility is different. If he wants to model underwear that's his choice, etc. Beckham does and he's hardly arrogant either. I think what you're expressing is that you don't believe or like the humility he projects when he takes time on court, makes people wait, etc. My feeling is that Nadal is highly OCD driven, he has routines that he refuses to budge from for fear of things going wrong but he always demonstrates good personality after losses. Anyone seeing the way he comforted Federer after AO09 could see he's a good guy. But on court yes he plays to win, and many people have different at work persona's to offline.

I agree marketing is there to sell product, trust me I'm highly aware of that
And any brand has an image that is developed and cultivated, Federer and Djokovic are no different. I'm not sure about the image being cultivated as a juxtaposition vs Federer...he was already in that image when he beat Federer for the first time as a 17 yr old, wearing bandana's and sleeveless tops. Nike just enhanced that. But that type of clothing is very 'Spanish'/Latin culture too...for example Delpo liked wearing sleeveless tops too.

I don't buy the Bodo stuff and the need to keep the profile of Nadal high. His profile is already sky high, with 12 million followers on Facebook, the highest of any player. Where I do agree is that Toni can be a loose cannon and say things that are perhaps contradictory to what Rafa would like put out. As I said earlier, I don't think all is well in the Nadal family camp and misinformation may be put out to protect Rafa or divert focus. After all as one of the highest profile sports stars in the world every one wants a piece of him, and the media - especially staunchly anti-Nadal Bodo - have vested interests in spinning stories to sell column inches. Sorry but I don't share your cynicism of 'Team Nadal' using their charge to make lots of money, infact I think it couldn't be further from the truth.

time please wrote:Anyway, these posts are really me saying that I don't believe Nadal has a career threatening injury

I agree but for differing reasons. I think the knee trouble is to deflect issues within his family that are affecting him again as they did in 2009 when knee trouble was again stated as the reason for RG loss and Wimby pullout. It transpired 2 yrs later that Rafa himself came out and said family issues were clouding his mind and rendered him unable to compete at the level needed. As mentioned I believe he's in that space again.

"His profile is already sky high, with 12 million followers on Facebook, the highest of any player ............."

- - - - - - - -

Not quite at the 12 million mark just yet, still trailing that Swiss chap by around 140K followers apparently (a purely academic correction, and of little/no significance as regards the context of the more fundamental points you're making, admittedly ...... )

lydian wrote:

time please wrote:Anyway, these posts are really me saying that I don't believe Nadal has a career threatening injury

I agree but for differing reasons. I think the knee trouble is to deflect issues within his family that are affecting him again as they did in 2009 when knee trouble was again stated as the reason for RG loss and Wimby pullout. It transpired 2 yrs later that Rafa himself came out and said family issues were clouding his mind and rendered him unable to compete at the level needed. As mentioned I believe he's in that space again.

If this tactic strategy was used during 2009 to deflect pressure from Nadal, and it was self-admitted 2 years later as something different, why is it being used again? The more often a specific statement is used, the more likely it gets attached to the public persona of the player.

What happened to the innate 'honesty' which Nadal has when he discusses his injuries freely. Is this Nadal controlling what is put out in the press or is he being controlled by a machine, which transcends Nadal, as TP states. Remember the Wimbledon MRI discussion?

Just state he is withdrawing due to personal reasons and media should respect the Nadal privacy, like it is afforded to others, who have visibility as he does.

The OP is not discussing the cultural mores of a specific country, but a sport which crosses national and international boundaries on an international stage as Olympics.

Lydian wrote:TP why do you say Rafa is a cash cow for the Nadal clan? Toni takes no salary for coaching Rafael, nor ever has. As a 50:50 stake owner in the family Window/Glass business with Rafa's dad he earns his money that way. Indeed an interview with Toni went:

Toni realised very early on that his nephew had it in him to be a champion and he therefore decided to take control of his career when the boy was 10 years old. “Not because I wanted to live off tennis, because I don’t charge a penny to coach my nephew, but because the family situation made it possible” he points out. At the same time he points out that nobody has given up their jobs as a result of the champion’s successes. “His dad works more than ever since he not only looks after his own affairs, but those of his son as well.” he stresses.

The family were relatively well off before so Toni was able to devote time to coaching Rafa.

I am sure that Toni does have a good bonus or something – I personally don’t hold Toni Nadal up as an upstanding example of open and completely honest dealing with the press so I am not sure I would be prepared to accept his word on this. In any event, it is not my business but I bring it up because it is a detail we probably didn’t need to know but there is the subtle manipulation of the image of Nadal as the ‘kid’ as Toni refers to him. I ask you whether a man would leave his own family for months on end unless he was on a lucrative deal which benefitted all. Perhaps we are just meant to see Toni as completely altruistic but that doesn’t quite tie in with the dominant task master that drove his young nephew on.

Lydian wrote:No one is saying Rafa is shy nor do I think he is sold as being 'shy'. Humility is different. If he wants to model underwear that's his choice, etc. Beckham does and he's hardly arrogant either. I think what you're expressing is that you don't believe or like the humility he projects when he takes time on court, makes people wait, etc. My feeling is that Nadal is highly OCD driven, he has routines that he refuses to budge from for fear of things going wrong but he always demonstrates good personality after losses. Anyone seeing the way he comforted Federer after AO09 could see he's a good guy. But on court yes he plays to win, and many people have different at work persona's to offline.

I think that we are probably misunderstanding each other a little. Beckham does model underwear but without a female model drapped provocatively all over him – in other words he still keeps to the party line that he is a family man, albeit an extremely desirable to other women one - can you see Posh cracking a smile if some gorgeous limpet was also in the shoot I certainly don’t hold it against Nadal that he models underwear, nor do I see it as a ‘sign’that he is not ‘humble’ (god I hate that expression!!) I simply see it as confused marketing – in other words scrap the girlfriend or the provocative model to keep on message! Or perhaps Xisca is another bit of window dressing - it just seems strange that this very respectful and humble young man would rub something like that in his girlfriend's face. He is not an actor and so he has no reason to have to play that part. Again, hardly our business but it is the contradictions that make you question their veracity about all kinds of issues such as the injury claims.


I don’t know if Nadal has OCD nor do I particularly care – all I require of him as a top athlete is that he plays well and entertains and that he observes the rules. I don’t agree that he displays sportsmanship entirely after a loss – I think he gives lip service to correct sentiments and then seeks to justify the loss a few days later through intermediaries. Nor do I think it was a sign of exemplary character to 'bump' Rosol or complain to the umpire about 'distracting tics' - I don't hold it against Nadal anymore than I did against Connors or McEnroe, but I just don't buy the 'best sport ever' line so readily as some. I make my judgement on what I see - words, as they say, are easy and cheap but actions define a man. But yes, it was sweet of him to hug Federer.

Lydian wrote:I don't buy the Bodo stuff and the need to keep the profile of Nadal high. His profile is already sky high, with 12 million followers on Facebook, the highest of any player. Where I do agree is that Toni can be a loose cannon and say things that are perhaps contradictory to what Rafa would like put out. As I said earlier, I don't think all is well in the Nadal family camp and misinformation may be put out to protect Rafa or divert focus. After all as one of the highest profile sports stars in the world every one wants a piece of him, and the media –
especially staunchly anti-Nadal Bodo - have vested interests in spinning stories to sell column inches. Sorry but I don't share your cynicism of 'Team Nadal' using their charge to make lots of money, infact I think it couldn't be further from the truth.

Of course the team wish to maximize his earning potential during his peak years the same as Federer does, Murray does, Djokovic does. I am not sure why else you think that Team Nadal would be in near constant communication with the press.

His facebook profile is high because his profile is high - I am sure that the team are not complacent about his popularity.

I don't know if Bodo is pro or anti Nadal but he was quoting from ' a source close to Nadal' so it was, yet another, exclusive to a journalist. Why not just call ONE press conference and have done with it like the majority of injured players who just want time to rest and recuperate?

There are continuing contradictory messages from the camp about whether Nadal will play on after a few years with Nadal making noises about wanting to retire still able to enjoy sports with friends and how he fears that he will not be able to and then the next day a press release is issued talking about working towards the 2016 Olympics and hoping to carry the flag then.

I have never, ever known a player in such constant communication with the press – and I just don’t understand why?

Anyway Lydian – I really enjoyed your posts and thank you for the opportunity to discuss this. I must admit it really intrigues me but it is often difficult to chat about such things because some posters have been unnecessarily possessive and protective over their favourite player in the past.

Good to have an adult discussion and be happy to differ!

time please wrote:
I don't know if Bodo is pro or anti Nadal but he was quoting from ' a source close to Nadal' so it was, yet another, exclusive to a journalist.

This made me laugh
I can just imagine Toni on the phonecall to Bodo... he probably has him on speed-dial lol

Nah I'm kidding, when he gets it from a source close to Nadal that's probably a friend of Nadal. I don't think Nadal uses Bodo as a media outlet, or very unlikely.

It Must Be Love wrote:

time please wrote:
I don't know if Bodo is pro or anti Nadal but he was quoting from ' a source close to Nadal' so it was, yet another, exclusive to a journalist.

This made me laugh
I can just imagine Toni on the phonecall to Bodo... he probably has him on speed-dial lol

Nah I'm kidding, when he gets it from a source close to Nadal that's probably a friend of Nadal. I don't think Nadal uses Bodo as a media outlet, or very unlikely.

I am sure it was a friend but also that it was a controlled release, in other words approved by the Team and I am very sure that any journalist would be happy with the authenticity of the source before going to print - as I said before this is an area that I am not unfamiliar with!

time please wrote:

I am sure that Toni does have a good bonus or something – I personally don’t hold Toni Nadal up as an upstanding example of open and completely honest dealing with the press so I am not sure I would be prepared to accept his word on this. In any event, it is not my business but I bring it up because it is a detail we probably didn’t need to know but there is the subtle manipulation of the image of Nadal as the ‘kid’ as Toni refers to him. I ask you whether a man would leave his own family for months on end unless he was on a lucrative deal which benefitted all. Perhaps we are just meant to see Toni as completely altruistic but that doesn’t quite tie in with the dominant task master that drove his young nephew on.

Interesting. But I don't agree with all of it.

Firstly we have to think of the 'role' of Uncle Toni. He saw Rafa as a project. A talented youngster, and Toni was passionate that he wanted to make Nadal into a great tennis player.
So that he could get a lot of money when Nadal was a tennis superstar? No.
So that Sebastian gave him a good salary? No, again.

Of course I'm sure Toni had good money, and his brother would be there if there were any shortages (I hardly think they were living in poverty lol) but does this mean Toni was motivated by money?

So he is 'altruistic'? No, not necessarily. He saw Rafa as a project, he was hard on him to make sure Rafa did the best he could. Sometimes too strict, but this was his judgement. I don't see how this means he was motivated by the money he would receive for coaching the youngster from his brother.
And once again he may say whatever he likes in press conferences. but I don't think this means he is motivated by money.

I've been to Spain and apparently they don't like Rafa too much over there. Something about him being ignorant and leaving in tinted car windows not engaging with his former friends etc.

Thanks lags...I was just going off a June 2012 story that said he had moved ahead of Federer in Facebook followers.

JM, we'll take your trip to Spain as definitive then. Clearly the Spanish hate him...Olympic flag bearer and all that, plus 3 million spaniards watched him win Wimbledon in 2008, not bad for a football obsessed country

Absolutely TP, always a pleasure to debate

Nadal will, as a multi-million earner with his image/brand to uphold and communicate, have a PR team who will brief the press on pieces of news. Likewise Toni will be approached by the press for news but I doubt he proactively does that as his coach. I also doubt Rafael has much control over what his PR do from day to day. But I do disagree with the money-making angle of the Nadal clan, and I mean family there. Yes Toni may get his expenses paid but why will he want to take bonuses from his nephew, it's not a normal coaching set-up. You ask why would a guy leave his family? I presume he does it for many reasons, family pride and genuine interest in his nephews career being uppermost. Toni Nadal was a tennis coach before he started coaching Rafa, he has a genuine interest in the sport - he was also a professional player himself - so its his passion too. He has said after Rafa retires he will go back to coaching children again. I suspect money is very low down on his list of motivators.

He says some interesting things about coaching Nadal here: https://sites.google.com/a/nadalwin.com/mallorcans/news-stream/with-toni-nadal/interviewwithtoninadal

So perhaps we just have to agree to disagree over his motivations in coaching Rafa. To be honest I think he would be too proud to take bonuses from his nephew no matter what part he had in his success...do you have proof/source he gets bonuses?

Re: the underwear thing well Rafa isn't a family man like Beckham, but that aside was it his smartest move? Probably not, but they all do clangers from time to time, remember Federer's Saturday Night Fever ad with Tiger Woods? All I would say about the misinformation is that perhaps they seek to protect him at times, as family do, particularly if there are family issues going on.

"I can say more things, we can discuss more than before," he said. "But I still have big respect for him. It's never going to change." Nadal said his uncle's tactics would have failed if they were not family. "If other people from outside say to me the things that he told me, it's going to be difficult to keep working together," he said. "I saw him a little bit more like my coach than my uncle, but at the same time I love him like my uncle."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904875404576530301074105770.html

Very surprising statement from Nadal.

Can Nadal ever have someone other than Toni as his coach, IMVHO, very unlikely.

He has overcome creaky knees and a congenitally diseased foot that he keeps in check with carefully calibrated shoes.

Any insight on this, Lydian/IMBL?

JM - I sometimes sense your comments must cause other members to wonder just how much thought you give to what you write on this Forum.

All normal indications are that Rafa Nadal - nothwithstanding whatever shortcomings or perceived 'issues' he may have (and I doubt even his most ardent fan would claim he is without fault) - enjoys huge admiration and respect in his homeland, where he is widely regarded as one of Spain's finest-ever sporting heros.

lydian wrote:Thanks lags...I was just going off a June 2012 story that said he had moved ahead of Federer in Facebook followers.

JM, we'll take your trip to Spain as definitive then. Clearly the Spanish hate him...Olympic flag bearer and all that, plus 3 million spaniards watched him win Wimbledon in 2008, not bad for a football obsessed country

Absolutely TP, always a pleasure to debate

Nadal will, as a multi-million earner with his image/brand to uphold and communicate, have a PR team who will brief the press on pieces of news. Likewise Toni will be approached by the press for news but I doubt he proactively does that as his coach. I also doubt Rafael has much control over what his PR do from day to day. But I do disagree with the money-making angle of the Nadal clan, and I mean family there. Yes Toni may get his expenses paid but why will he want to take bonuses from his nephew, it's not a normal coaching set-up. You ask why would a guy leave his family? I presume he does it for many reasons, family pride and genuine interest in his nephews career being uppermost. Toni Nadal was a tennis coach before he started coaching Rafa, he has a genuine interest in the sport - he was also a professional player himself - so its his passion too. He has said after Rafa retires he will go back to coaching children again. I suspect money is very low down on his list of motivators.

He says some interesting things about coaching Nadal here: https://sites.google.com/a/nadalwin.com/mallorcans/news-stream/with-toni-nadal/interviewwithtoninadal

So perhaps we just have to agree to disagree over his motivations in coaching Rafa. To be honest I think he would be too proud to take bonuses from his nephew no matter what part he had in his success...do you have proof/source he gets bonuses?

Re: the underwear thing well Rafa isn't a family man like Beckham, but that aside was it his smartest move? Probably not, but they all do clangers from time to time, remember Federer's Saturday Night Fever ad with Tiger Woods? All I would say about the misinformation is that perhaps they seek to protect him at times, as family do, particularly if there are family issues going on.

Thanks for that Lydian - very good interview and enjoyed reading it. Gosh they do all go on and on about their perfect manners though don't they and this is my point I guess. I can't help but applaud the sentiments that I read in the interview but it is just not backed up by what I see on court or the subtle way they use the press to explain each loss imvho.

Lol at Fed and the Saturday Night Fever - yes it was a bit of cringe making advertising, though I like to think he was tongue in cheek certainly it was too ridiculous to be anything but by the scriptwriter. That's not me being defensive btw it's just that the two are not a good analogy. Better to have picked the Credit Suisse lounging on the diving board advert as an example of Fed being sold as an attractive man in order to promote the bank.
I think underwear advertising is perfect for Nadal btw - he has a body that many (not moi) like to gaze at, and like Beckham he certainly has a kind of homo erotic appeal as well as being attractive to young girls - did he need the model though? There are lots of sports stars who have modelled in this way but if they have a long term attachment they are unlikely to have a nearly naked female (unless their partner) drapped provocatively over them because it doesn't tend to make for a happy time at home? But of course if Xisca is a carefully scripted bit of marketing from Toni, then that would explain why there was no conflict in the decision.

Anyway all conjecture, but conjecture can be fun We are certainly being sold a story of a boy's transition to manhood and superstardom in a way not done with other players and therefore we are all going to respond to that story differently, either to buy it all wholesale or some of us finding that there are bits that require us to suspend our disbelief!

Me again!!!! Poured myself some more coffee, shoved work aside and remembered what I wanted to say. Promise (crosses fingers tightly behind back!) that I'll shut up after this

What I don't buy about Toni is that you can't close the circle - If he is just a very good uncle guiding Rafa on the tour (I know the Spanish like to chaperone their girls, but their boys?) and taking no money for coaching him, then he is by definition a really lousy father to his three children.

Conversely, however, if he is properly rewarded for coaching Nadal then he is a pretty good father because he is supporting his family financially really well and they reap all kind of benefits that may not compensate for his absence but which give them advantages of their own in life.

Contradictions, contradictions

hi there time please .... don't have as much 'posting' time on my hands as I'd like today but just a couple of comments on this intriguing debate

Re the adverts and promo activity - whether underwear, Credit Suisse, Sat Night Fever etc etc - I'm really not sure how much significance or analysis all that stuff deserves. To one extent or another it has been that way in sport for some years now in this age of 'the meeja', don't think anyone could seriously claim to be harmed or troubled by it, and I'd say we can all take it or leave it as we wish.

I do however see what you are saying as regards a story being sold on the Rafa transition from boy to man, and that people should not be surprised when some/many of us might not be ready to swallow it all "wholesale." And I agree 100% on your comment "I have never ever known a player in such constant communication with the press - and I just don't understand why" It really does seem very odd at times and, true it never reached such proportions AFAIK with any of the great tennis legends past or present.

I do often wonder just how better things could have been were Rafa left alone to simply a) play his game and b) speak for himself. Many times I have seen him graciously acknowledge a defeat, saying things like he played better than me, he fully deserves his win, that's all there is to it. He has done so whether involving a much lower-ranked opponent or even Federer (eg Indian Wells a few months back). Obviously we all know that coaches, trainers, physios, PR etc are an integral part of the regime for all top players, they are inextricably linked with the sport BUT away from the court it's the press machine surrounding Rafa that subsequently kicks in, and then IMO leads to the mixed messages and at times a sense of bemusement on the part of the public ..... dark references to things we don't want to talk about etc, the sometimes subtle use of the press to imply overly-complex reasons behind each loss, confused reports of injuries, their nature and the need for rest & recuperation just a short time after the last recuperation.

Sometimes saying less is better than more when it comes to making use of the press, but - equally - honesty is more important than unverified implication. Although obviously not a direct analogy, the handling of the Luis Suarez affair by manager Kenny Dalglish was truly abysmal and even when the case had been finalised and official sanction handed down, Dalglish couldn't resist making claims about all sorts of goings on that we can't talk about - even though he was given every opportunity to raise them in his defence. It made him look unprofessional and I believe ultimately contributed far more to his eventual dismissal by the club's owners than any run of poor results. The latter can be excused, unlike an attempt, whether wilful or not, to hoodwink the public.

lags72 wrote:I do however see what you are saying as regards a story being sold on the Rafa transition from boy to man, and that people should not be surprised when some/many of us might not be ready to swallow it all "wholesale." And I agree 100% on your comment "I have never ever known a player in such constant communication with the press - and I just don't understand why" It really does seem very odd at times and, true it never reached such proportions AFAIK with any of the great tennis legends past or present.

Hey Lags - I think Team Nadal are very well aware that they have a 'saleable product' and they are maximising Rafa's earning potential while he competes.

I wouldn't criticise them for that - best way to look after his interests and theirs. Operation Rafa is obviously a family run enterprise - why deny it? Unless you feel that a large part of his marketable appeal is that he is slightly different from established tennis families when in fact is it possible to find a better example of 'tennis parent' than Toni Nadal?

lags72 wrote:I do often wonder just how better things could have been were Rafa left alone to simply a) play his game and b) speak for himself. Many times I have seen him graciously acknowledge a defeat, saying things like he played better than me, he fully deserves his win, that's all there is to it. He has done so whether involving a much lower-ranked opponent or even Federer (eg Indian Wells a few months back). Obviously we all know that coaches, trainers, physios, PR etc are an integral part of the regime for all top players, they are inextricably linked with the sport BUT away from the court it's the press machine surrounding Rafa that subsequently kicks in, and then IMO leads to the mixed messages and at times a sense of bemusement on the part of the public ..... dark references to things we don't want to talk about etc, the sometimes subtle use of the press to imply overly-complex reasons behind each loss, confused reports of injuries, their nature and the need for rest & recuperation just a short time after the last recuperation

I agree totally with this paragraph. I think some of his fans who seem to need to identify with the image of the man they are presented with far more than fans of other players lap up and enjoy the press machine. For the rest of us, however, it IS, along with the on court antics, detracting from a great champion. It is just not worthy of a former No 1 imo.

Nadal, or any other player, can be as complex as they want - I think too much time is spend wondering what they are like as people when what counts is (a) how they conduct themselves on Court and (b) how they conduct themselves in and around the game - when being 'public' people.

On count (a) Nadal is, unfortunately, not up to puff. He is neither a sporting nor gracious presence on Court because he tries to get everything going his way and does not just rely upon what he does when the ball is in play. As I've said many times that is the main reason why I don't like him as a tennis player for all his undeniable greatness and success.

On count (b) Nadal is mixed. In the immediate aftermath of defeat and victory he behaves very well, which I like a lot. On other counts it's not so good - as with his on-court behaviour he wants things organised around his priorities to the detriment of others (2-yr ranking and shortened season). Also I really don't like all these tangled messages originating from his camp or those puporting to know him - he could easily just squash all that by providing information when needed (such as cancelling the Djoko match and not playing in the Olympics) with an explanation and otherwise shutting up and making it clear who can and cannot speak for him.

One thing that did come from the 'horse's mouth' was this tweet re the Contador decision (Reuters translation), which does not come well from someone in his position and is not in my view adequately explained by personal loyalty or friendship:

"The Contador news is incredible, there is no definitive evidence and they give him the maximum punishment...LAMENTABLE...keep your spirits up champion! All my support!"

barrystar wrote:
One thing that did come from the 'horse's mouth' was this tweet re the Contador decision (Reuters translation), which does not come well from someone in his position and is not in my view adequately explained by personal loyalty or friendship:

"The Contador news is incredible, there is no definitive evidence and they give him the maximum punishment...LAMENTABLE...keep your spirits up champion! All my support!"

Birds of a feather flock together!

barrystar wrote:Nadal, or any other player, can be as complex as they want - I think too much time is spend wondering what they are like as people when what counts is (a) how they conduct themselves on Court and (b) how they conduct themselves in and around the game - when being 'public' people.

agree with you 100%.

barrystar wrote:One thing that did come from the 'horse's mouth' was this tweet re the Contador decision (Reuters translation), which does not come well from someone in his position and is not in my view adequately explained by personal loyalty or friendship:

"The Contador news is incredible, there is no definitive evidence and they give him the maximum punishment...LAMENTABLE...keep your spirits up champion! All my support!"

Extraordinary and extremely unwise!

Perhaps very sensible, after all, of Toni to oversee the PR!

barrystar : it's difficult to disagree with your assessment as regards certain aspects of Rafa's on-court conduct

I sometimes think that if Rafa could have made a more concerted effort at improving in that area, then his very considerable band of loyal fans around the world could be increased yet further by those who are more than happy to recognise, admire and respect his truly stellar career achievements, but find it difficult to 'like' him

Quite apart from so much of the stuff that even hovers on the borderline (if I can be diplomatic) of rules compliance, I feel that a lot of criticism for seemingly minor but annoying issues could so easily be avoided.

Case in point : I can remember Rafa - just as the Umpire was very close to calling play for the start of a match, opponent pretty much ready & waiting - suddenly decided he needed to tape his fingers ; a task which clearly could, and should, have been done in the dressing room before even stepping on court.

lags72 wrote:barrystar : it's difficult to disagree with your assessment as regards certain aspects of Rafa's on-court conduct

I sometimes think that if Rafa could have made a more concerted effort at improving in that area, then his very considerable band of loyal fans around the world could be increased yet further by those who are more than happy to recognise, admire and respect his truly stellar career achievements, but find it difficult to 'like' him

Quite apart from so much of the stuff that even hovers on the borderline (if I can be diplomatic) of rules compliance, I feel that a lot of criticism for seemingly minor but annoying issues could so easily be avoided.

Case in point : I can remember Rafa - just as the Umpire was very close to calling play for the start of a match, opponent pretty much ready & waiting - suddenly decided he needed to tape his fingers ; a task which clearly could, and should, have been done in the dressing room before even stepping on court.

Perfect illustration of why it is risible to hold Nadal up as a role model. Good sportsmanship - pah!

reckoner wrote:

lags72 wrote:barrystar : it's difficult to disagree with your assessment as regards certain aspects of Rafa's on-court conduct

I sometimes think that if Rafa could have made a more concerted effort at improving in that area, then his very considerable band of loyal fans around the world could be increased yet further by those who are more than happy to recognise, admire and respect his truly stellar career achievements, but find it difficult to 'like' him

Quite apart from so much of the stuff that even hovers on the borderline (if I can be diplomatic) of rules compliance, I feel that a lot of criticism for seemingly minor but annoying issues could so easily be avoided.

Case in point : I can remember Rafa - just as the Umpire was very close to calling play for the start of a match, opponent pretty much ready & waiting - suddenly decided he needed to tape his fingers ; a task which clearly could, and should, have been done in the dressing room before even stepping on court.

Perfect illustration of why it is risible to hold Nadal up as a role model. Good sportsmanship - pah!

Credit has to be given where it's due. I'd be happy to show my son a video of the prize ceremonies after every slam final Nadal's been in and tell him that Nadal's behaviour is a good example of how to deal with victory or defeat.

Yes I suppose credit where it's due. If prize ceremonies are taken in isolation I agree. Add in another factor and the picture is less complimentary.

barrystar wrote:Credit has to be given where it's due. I'd be happy to show my son a video of the prize ceremonies after every slam final Nadal's been in and tell him that Nadal's behaviour is a good example of how to deal with victory or defeat.

Agree that it is impossible to fault Nadal's manners here, and that is very much to his credit.

But sadly also concur with your earlier post when you say that you wish he relied solely on what the ball does in play to influence the outcome on court.

time please wrote:

barrystar wrote:Credit has to be given where it's due. I'd be happy to show my son a video of the prize ceremonies after every slam final Nadal's been in and tell him that Nadal's behaviour is a good example of how to deal with victory or defeat.

Agree that it is impossible to fault Nadal's manners here, and that is very much to his credit.

But sadly also concur with your earlier post when you say that you wish he relied solely on what the ball does in play to influence the outcome on court.

I have never seen Nadal swear at an umpire before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr3bKiH0d1I

I've never seen another player shoulder an opponent before.

reckoner wrote:I've never seen another player shoulder an opponent before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pinc2rxVi0A

Haha irrelevant but funny! FIFA 12 needs to give Rooney a hair implant...

Federer had a point with his complaint but was clearly very wrong to swear at the umpire - I think he was, quite correctly, penalised for it IIRC and certainly heavily criticised for it (not least because it was unusual behaviour!)

But in any event, it is a very strange defence to the suggestion that Nadal relies heavily on gamesmanship to influence the outcome of certain matches by turning this into a player vs player debate

But not unexpected, and you rather make my own point about some Nadal fans needing to invest too heavily in the PR created image of 'Rafa' as a brand to the point where they feel possessive over this image and very defensive about it.

It Must Be Love wrote:

time please wrote:

barrystar wrote:Credit has to be given where it's due. I'd be happy to show my son a video of the prize ceremonies after every slam final Nadal's been in and tell him that Nadal's behaviour is a good example of how to deal with victory or defeat.

Agree that it is impossible to fault Nadal's manners here, and that is very much to his credit.

But sadly also concur with your earlier post when you say that you wish he relied solely on what the ball does in play to influence the outcome on court.

I have never seen Nadal swear at an umpire before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr3bKiH0d1I

Nor smash a racquet either - it is commendable that he keeps control of himself in that way I agree.

However, in the hierarchy of bad on court behaviour I put very occasional swearing or racquet breaking below persistent and sustained attempts to gain an advantage through taking too long between points and general time-grabbing and one-upmanship tactics including by objecting to having to play to the speed of the server.

Amyway the Federer conversation was in response to JMDP breaking the rules in the first place!

reckoner wrote:Amyway the Federer conversation was in response to JMDP breaking the rules in the first place!

That provides the background, but it doesn't make it right. Fed was utterly stupid and unprofessional to let that get to him and start a 'duking it out from the baseline' contest which moved him right into Del Boy's territory. It was a reminder that he has had to learn a mechanism to control what was terrible temper to make his breakthrough and sustain his excellence.

It Must Be Love wrote:

time please wrote:

barrystar wrote:Credit has to be given where it's due. I'd be happy to show my son a video of the prize ceremonies after every slam final Nadal's been in and tell him that Nadal's behaviour is a good example of how to deal with victory or defeat.

Agree that it is impossible to fault Nadal's manners here, and that is very much to his credit.

But sadly also concur with your earlier post when you say that you wish he relied solely on what the ball does in play to influence the outcome on court.

I have never seen Nadal swear at an umpire before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr3bKiH0d1I

I am absolutely disappointed by this post. This is now a Fedal conversation? There are many such incidents on both sides.

time please wrote:
But not unexpected, and you rather make my own point about some Nadal fans needing to invest too heavily in the PR created image of 'Rafa' as a brand to the point where they feel possessive over this image and very defensive about it.

Ouch!
I was pointing no human beings are perfect, you can criticise Nadal, I can criticise Federer etc. At the end of the day they are humans, not machines.

barrystar wrote:

Nor smash a racquet either - it is commendable that he keeps control of himself in that way I agree.

Thanks for acknowledging that Barry

barrystar wrote:
However, in the hierarchy of bad on court behaviour I put very occasional swearing or racquet breaking below persistent and sustained attempts to gain an advantage through taking too long between points,

Nadal does take too long in between points, I think the time limit is 25 sec or something and he breaks it. He has to change that, or he is breaking the time-keeping rules simple as that. I might be a Rafa fan but I'm not going to lie.
Nevertheless his motivations are not to create some sort of evil ploy (how long does he take to order his bottles!) but his OCD. Anyway it still takes time, longer than allowed, and hence I agree that it's not good.

laverfan wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:

time please wrote:

barrystar wrote:Credit has to be given where it's due. I'd be happy to show my son a video of the prize ceremonies after every slam final Nadal's been in and tell him that Nadal's behaviour is a good example of how to deal with victory or defeat.

Agree that it is impossible to fault Nadal's manners here, and that is very much to his credit.

But sadly also concur with your earlier post when you say that you wish he relied solely on what the ball does in play to influence the outcome on court.

I have never seen Nadal swear at an umpire before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr3bKiH0d1I

I am absolutely disappointed by this post. This is now a Fedal conversation? There are many such incidents on both sides.

'There are many such incidents on both sides.'
That's what I just said lol (I was typing as you made your comment and hence didn't see it). Don't try to twist my words
Anyway Read what I replied to Time Please earlier.

Oh no IMBL not the dreaded OCD excuse, haven't seen that one wheeled out since the original 606 lol!