Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

by Thomond Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been a long time coming, but my thoughts on our tourn in NZ are here, debate criticize do whatever the heck you want within site rules!

I think Irish fans entered the Summer tour with a sense of cautious optimism. The backbone of the team (Leinster/Ulster) both reached the final of the Heineken Cup with Leinster emerging victorious.
While, this provincial success was quite amazing, we Irish fans knew that at international level, we have often struggled. Many speculate over the reasons, in reality its is somewhere in between having players who aren't good enough and the tactics of Director of Rugby Declan Kidney and his staff. With the All Blacks replacing former coach Graham Henry with Steve Hansen, I think the Irish faithful saw the first test as their best opportunity to finally notch a win.

So the first game came, the Irish forwards put in an outstanding performance, Sean O'Brien, Rory Best and Declan Fitzpatrick were stellar. Ireland were arguably superior at the breakdown and had some dominance in the scrum. The problems lay outside. The Irish backs have struggled throughout Kidney's tenure, their back play is somewhat archaic and while try scoring isn't a huge issue for Ireland their creativity is. Kidney surprisingly picked a relatively inexperienced team, Simon Zebo and Declan Fitzpatrick gaining their first caps, Peter O'Mahony only had one previous cap while Brian O'Driscoll took on a new role at inside centre. Wingers Fergus McFadden and Simon Zebo were exposed, a lack of communication also proved to be a problem. McFadden got drawn in at times but he and Earls didn't communicate effectively resulting in some terrible gaps in defence. New Zealand winger grabbed three tries on his debut which largely culminated from poor Irish defence. A final score of 42-10 in favour of the All Blacks meant a bleak outlook, yet Irish fans knew if their backs could front up in the tackle and offer something going forward the match would be a lot tighter.

So the second test was held in Christchurch. . Ireland gave the All Blacks an almighty shock, with the home side eventually winning out on a scoreline of 22-19. Ireland made 4 changes. The injured Keith Earls was replaced by Gordon D'Arcy. Andrew Trimble was favoured ahead of Simon Zebo, Mike Ross replaced Declan Fitzpatrick and Kevin McLaughlin replaced Peter O'Mahony. While Victor Vito replaced Adam Thomson in the All Blacks line-up. The Irish forwards picked up where they left out showing superiority at the breakdown and also putting in a decent effort come scrum time. The backs also stood up and brought intensity and physicality that was absent in the first test. At times they showed some intricate backplay but mainly they used physical and powerful runners and recycled quickly . The Irish kept the All Blacks in the game by giving away silly and needless penalties, as the shell-shocked Kiwis struggled to create try scoring opportunities. They managed one in the second half but Ireland managed to tie the game at 19-19, and after Israel Dagg's sin binning for an aerial challenge on Rob Kearney, Ireland were awarded a penalty. While it seemed that captain Brian O'Driscoll wanted to go down the line with the resulting penalty, Johnny Sexton opted for the posts and his effort ultimately fell short. After a penalty which caused consternation among some Irish fans, the All Blacks marched down the field with Dan Carter sinking the winning drop goal to break Irish hearts.

The third test is something most Irish fans have blanked from their memory. In the absence of Dan Carter and Kieran Read, the All Blacks turned in a superb performance, Aaron Cruden and Sam Cane deputising brilliantly for the absent duo. The Irish team of the second test failed to turn up , the lacked physicality, slipped off tackles stood off the All Blacks and looked like they wanted to catch the plane home at times. Some mind-boggling selections like playing Paddy Wallace who only arrived in NZ on the Thursday of the game were a bit odd but all round Ireland were awful and this lead to an embarrassing 60-0 loss.

Irish team Analysis

Coaching staff

Declan Kidney - 5/10
While he obviously missed key players like Tommy Bowe, Paul O'Connell and Stephen Ferris, as well as the versatility of Luke Fitzgerald, the performances of the first and final test were poor. Our tactics were awful and we persisted to kick ball to the All Blacks without a good kick chase. While he isn't directly in charge of our backplay you have to feel his ideas have some merit, it's somewhat strange because his Munster played with more panache then the current Ireland backline do. I think that some fans place a bit too much blame on Kidney but he does deserve a fair bit and I think it might be time to get some new ideas into the Irish team and setup. His marks mainly come from the 2nd test performance and the decent play by our forwards in the first 2 games

Gert Smal- 8/10

The Irish forwards coach deserves immense praise for the way the pack played in the first two tests, they were dominant at the breakdown, the scrum was solid with new cap Declan Fitzpatrick and as good with Mike Ross. If Fitzpatrick can work on some of his fitness/health issues, then there is a spot available for him in the Irish setup.

Les Kiss- 4/10
The rating is admittedly harsh and I don't think it's all his fault, more the IRFU who seem to be insisting on Kiss working two jobs. When Kiss was solely our defensive coach, we had a very reliable defensive unit, conceding the least amount of points in the 2011 6 Nations (tied with England) and had the second best defence in 2009. Yet after the departure of Alan Gaffney, Kiss was also asked to take up the role of backs coach, our defence suffered a sharp decline, dropping from tied first to 4th overall. Our backplay hasn't been great either, at times we put some moves together but overall we seem to just go through the middle and hope gaps appear. Similar tactics work for the Welsh, but they have far more big target runners than Ireland have. I think Kiss could still do a very good job as our defence coach but I don't think he has what is takes to be a backs coach.

Players that enhanced their Reputations

Sean O'Brien- It might seem odd that a former ERC European Player of the year could do much more to enhance his reputation but "SOB" did. O'Brien confirmed that he is a superb backrow operator. While I think the Irish aren't in need of the classic "7" so many claim we need, O'Brien was a menace at the breakdown and arguably outshined Richie McCaw over the first two tests. O'Brien showed he has the ability to play all 3 backrow positions effectively at the highest level having seen him play 6 and 8 for his province and country.

Declan Fitzpatrick- While the Ulster man deputised for John Afoa in the Heineken Cup Semi final and played extremely well, I'm sure I wasn't the only Irish fan worried when I heard Mike Ross was definitely out of the first test. Fitzpatrick and his front partners Rory best and Cian Healy marshalled the All Blacks scrum, and enjoyed a bit of dominance at times but parity for the large part. Most of us expected trouble from the New Zealand scrum but credit to Fitzpatrick he was imperious. There's a spot in the Irish setup if he can work on his fitness and injury problems.

Cian Healy - At times, Healy has struggled in the international arena but over the tour he did a very good job on Owen Franks. He was used sparingly by the Irish in terms of ball carrying but we all know what he can do there and he was effective when used.

Donnacha Ryan- In the absence of Paul O'Connell, Ryan was very effective in the lineout while also disrupting at the breakdown and hitting tackles with incredible ferocity. He should partner O'Connell in the Autumn Internationals with Dan Tuohy, who performed solidly on the bench.

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Rest can be found here: http://v2journal.com/ireland-rugby--summer-tour-review.html

by **rodders** Sun 05 Aug 2012, 8:47 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
What im talking about is having an alternate route to the top team which develops and promotes different speed and fitness skills, I truely dont know if Ireland would produce More rugby players if they got on board with sevens, but Im more than confident that they would produce players with wider skill sets and fitness work ethics.

Totally agree Laurie guinness

.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun 05 Aug 2012, 8:54 pm

Well there are 4 hurling Championships in Meath.Senior,intermediate,Junior 1 and Junior 2.There are 10 senior teams,either 10 or 12 intermediate the same in Junior 1 and 2.That's between 40 to 46 teams (a lot of clubs have 2 or 3 teams).If you give each team only 18 players that's still 720 hurlers in Meath.

Apply the same concept to rugby Navan have 4 sides,Ashbourne have 3 or 4,every other club has one although Athboy are trying to get a 2nd,so if each team has 22 players that's only 264 rugby players.It's nowhere close.

by aucklandlaurie Sun 05 Aug 2012, 9:09 pm

left Shoulder

In your last couple post you have commented on how rugby is positioned lower in the pecking order in some Countys as opposed to some other sports.this bears a lot of resemblance to Rugby Union in some states of Australia, (Aussie Rules, Rugby league and Soccer) all though its not ideal, Australia does however consistently perform well on the International stage.

One thing the Aussies do, is take the good points out of the sports that compete with rugby union.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Aug 2012, 10:41 pm

Would having a 7s team make that much difference do you think? Laurie, you have given evidence for NZ, and they have produced some real stars through 7s rugby, but what about other countries? I'm not sure it would make much of a difference for Ireland. The likes of Leinster already play some fantastic rugby anyway, the support play/offloading is top notch, the problem is that it doesn't translate to international level at this point.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Aug 2012, 10:46 pm

Not to mention the fact that there are 7s competitions throughout junior levels. Usually at the end of a season. So it does exist, and the majority of players who are in the Ireland squad I am sure will have played 7s rugby of some sort.

by aucklandlaurie Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:19 pm

Rory

From what Ive seen of Ireland ( been to three Irish tests in the last nine months) I believe where 7s can contribute is the pace and repetitve speed fitness at training is then replicated on game day.

Its not going to be a cure all on its own, but it would bring more completeness to your outside backs, an area where Ireland need more ammo.

by Thomond Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:22 pm

7s can help but sports like Gaelic football and hurling also help these guys you would be surprised to see the amount of guys on our team who played GAA to high levels. 7s should be embraced, I know we try to do ab it when training with the lads but I place a great emphasis on speed an skill. I don't know many underage 7s comps. Tag also helps with that kind of skill base and that is gaining in popularity can't delve too much into this now on a phone!

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:23 pm

So you think it would benefit the fitness aspect of rugby? Fair comment, I think that is certainly one area where our SH rivals certainly destroy us. In the June tests our guys looked pretty knackered, and just couldn't keep up with the pace.

by Thomond Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:31 pm

It's one of the tougher sports to play. You need explosiveness and fitness to last for 20 minutes. Would benefit Ireland. If we had our young fellas in the team on the 7s circuits guys like Marshall, Macken and Conway would get experience and further their skills. Would be very beneficial.

by aucklandlaurie Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:42 pm

Rory
yes, but it goes further than just fitness, its also about retaining your ability to think fast when you are tired at the back end of a game, its about the ability of the body to recover after a length of field foot race etc etc.

Just to give an example, in the 79 th minute (might be exagerating) in the irish Australia test, Eden Park last year, your right wing, Bowe I think, got a ball 60 metres out,no one in front of him, meanwhile James O'connor came at him on the diagonal from the other side of the field.
About twnety metres out, Bowe should have straightened and then ran away from JOC, but he didnt, leaving O'Connor to keep his line to the corner without having to hesitate/alter in his pace. What should have been an International try, whether you were ahead or not on the scoreboard went begging.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:48 pm

But that is just raw pace really, which Bowe isn't exactly known for. JOC is very quick. The irish aren't very quick naturally, and most teams have bigger and faster players than we do. However we produce some very gifted players.

Those 80-100m sprints are extremely rare. A player may have to do that only a few times in his whole career, if at all. Training for those occasions would be a waste IMO. Most players aim to be fastest over short distances up to about 20m, which would be around the limit a player commonly has to sprint in one go.

by aucklandlaurie Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:56 pm

Sure those opportunities might be rare, but when they arise you must be equiped to take advantage of them and put them away.

O'connor is very quick over 20/30 metres, but I just presumed he wouldnt have been quicker than Bowe over a length of field footrace.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Aug 2012, 11:59 pm

Well Bowe was famously said to be too slow to be an international winger by a certain George Hook. Whistle

He isn't really known for pace, but rather for his fantastic finishing ability and fantastic supporting lines.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 06 Aug 2012, 12:08 am

I feel like Ive just run headfirst into a brick wall.

Maybe if Mr Bowe had spent some time playing Sevens, he would be a more complete winger.

I truely didnt know that he was that slow.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 06 Aug 2012, 12:13 am

Haha no you could be right about the 7s, and I can see where you are coming from about the pace and fitness aspect being developed! I am not saying Bowe is slow, but he isn't known for his pace. Like most of our wingers I guess. Fitzgerald is a similar player to Bowe, individually brilliant, but not the fastest winger out there. However Bowe is a much better finisher (experience probably counts here).

George Hook was ultimately very, very wrong about Bowe anyway. He didn't think he was good enough.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 06 Aug 2012, 12:22 am

Wow thats a relief, I was getting ready to have a very detailed discussion on Mr Hooks opinions.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 8:45 am

Its nothing to do with pace, the skill levels and execution from the Irish players is nowhere near good enough. How many times do we fail to finish off scoring chances?

7s is a great way for young players to develop ball skills and awareness and a lot of NZs best players have come through the 7s circuit like Christian Cullen and Lomu.

Someone like Earls would have been an excellent 7s player and he would be a far better player than he is now if he'd have cut his teeth in 7s in my opinion. He wouldn't be still trying to develop basic skills and awareness as a seasoned international. Possibly McFadden and maybe even Trimble too.

Looking at the younger generation Gilroy, Madigan, K2, Zebo and Spence would get so much out of playing regular 7s. It's just so unfortunate that the IRFU don't see the value in it.

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 8:54 am

rodders wrote:
7s is a great way for young players to develop ball skills and awareness and a lot of NZs best players have come through the 7s circuit like Christian Cullen and Lomu.

So did Liefimi Mafi. He was in the squad that won a world series for NZ!

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 8:56 am

....and he's been the best inside centre in the country for the past 3 seasons.

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 8:57 am

I like the idea of 7's rugby for skills but i am also a firm advocate of also having young players play a season Rugby League, thats also a hotbed for learning skills.

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:00 am

rodders wrote:....and he's been the best inside centre in the country for the past 3 seasons.

Your only fishing for compliments for Paddy Wallace now Wink

Seriously though, Mafi has the heart of a lion, but crickey, he does love contact.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:09 am

Aw Paddy how could I have forgot the great man? king

Not so sure Billser I played a season of League and was still rubbish afterwords so.... Whistle

Look seriously though the advantage of 7s is it gets people on the ball more than the 15s game and encourages attacking play. Its no brainer. League is a good shout but there's probably logistical issues there with it being a different code.

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:13 am

rodders wrote:
Not so sure Billser I played a season of League and was still rubbish afterwords so....

Maybe you just had no talent or potential rodders Whistle

Seriously, watch the defensive lines that they have in RL, its quite impressive and i would certainly be for some sort of RL time for some young lads.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:20 am

eirebilly wrote:
Maybe you just had no talent or potential rodders

Damn thats where it went wrong!

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:23 am

Yeah, the serious lack of talent thing got to me as well otherwise i would be a hero to Sin é and hated by Gibbo Wink

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:25 am

No offence Billser but I can't see even Sin é sticking up for a sixmilebridge man.... Whistle

....

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:26 am

Munster is Munster Wink

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:28 am

I'm not sure that Thom, Keano and Rog would agree Smile

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:29 am

Yeah but we all know what Cork people are like Wink

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:31 am

Jaysus, i see now what you are trying to do you cheeky Ulster monkey. Get some Munster infighting...

Need a :bitchslap: emoticon for people like you Wink

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:32 am

eirebilly wrote:Munster is Munster

Sixmilebridge is in Clare though Whistle

(g'wan Tipp)

Ireland Rugby World Cup Sevens Squad (that went to the world cup in Dubai in 2009).

Gary Brown (Leinster), Kieran Campbell (Connacht) capt, Brian Carney (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Conan Doyle (Munster), Tom Gleeson (Munster), Eoghan Grace (Munster), Felix Jones (Leinster), Paul Marshall (Ulster), Daniel Riordan (Connacht), Kyle Tonetti (Leinster), Brian Tuohy (Cornish Pirates).

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:34 am

eirebilly wrote:Jaysus, i see now what you are trying to do you cheeky Ulster monkey. Get some Munster infighting...

Need a :bitchslap: emoticon for people like you

I don't think you Munster lads are ready for one training base yet by the sounds of it ... Smile

...

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:35 am

Sin é wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Munster is Munster

Sixmilebridge is in Clare though (g'wan Tipp)

Ireland Rugby World Cup Sevens Squad (that went to the world cup in Dubai in 2009).

Gary Brown (Leinster), Kieran Campbell (Connacht) capt, Brian Carney (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Conan Doyle (Munster), Tom Gleeson (Munster), Eoghan Grace (Munster), Felix Jones (Leinster), Paul Marshall (Ulster), Daniel Riordan (Connacht), Kyle Tonetti (Leinster), Brian Tuohy (Cornish Pirates).

So Clár is no longer a part of Munster Province? I am an outcast Crying or Very sad

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:36 am

rodders wrote:Aw Paddy how could I have forgot the great man?

Not so sure Billser I played a season of League and was still rubbish afterwords so....

Look seriously though the advantage of 7s is it gets people on the ball more than the 15s game and encourages attacking play. Its no brainer. League is a good shout but there's probably logistical issues there with it being a different code.

Ah, so thats where it all went wrong for Ian Humphreys - he should have played league rather than 7s Crying or Very sad

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:40 am

eirebilly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
eirebilly wrote:Munster is Munster

Sixmilebridge is in Clare though (g'wan Tipp)

Ireland Rugby World Cup Sevens Squad (that went to the world cup in Dubai in 2009).

Gary Brown (Leinster), Kieran Campbell (Connacht) capt, Brian Carney (Munster), James Coughlan (Munster), Conan Doyle (Munster), Tom Gleeson (Munster), Eoghan Grace (Munster), Felix Jones (Leinster), Paul Marshall (Ulster), Daniel Riordan (Connacht), Kyle Tonetti (Leinster), Brian Tuohy (Cornish Pirates).

So Clár is no longer a part of Munster Province? I am an outcast

Oh, its in Munster alright, but a Tipp man supporting Clare is a bridge too far to cross.

by eirebilly Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:42 am

Aha, i never knew you were from Tipp, hell man that explains all Wink

by Feckless Rogue Mon 06 Aug 2012, 2:18 pm

I don't think anyone has said 7's wouldn't help develop skills. It would It's the potential benefits weighed against the costs that are the problem. Irish rugby is not in financial difficulty. But it's not rolling in cash either.

Rodders said "skill levels and execution from the Irish players is nowhere near good enough". But if you asked me, easily the best backline of the home nations in the pro era was D'arcy, O'Driscoll, Hickie, Horgan, Dempsey/Murphy, in the mid 00's in their pomp. They were incredibly skillful.

In the last Lions tour we had Fitzgerald, Bowe, O'Driscoll and Kearney starting tests. Do these Irish players really lack skill levels and execution?
They don't for their provinces. They don't for the Lions. But we've seen a load of errors from Ireland. But Ireland don't have a cohesive attacking plan or philosophy that the players can have any confidence in.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 3:20 pm

Feckless I honestly don't believe any of those guys bar Shaggy maybe were great passers of the ball.

It's a general point that the Irish skill levels aren't great compared to the SH teams and in my opinion Wales and France as well.

7s isn't the only way to develop ball skills and attacking play but it is a good way.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 3:25 pm

And I can't possibly agree that was the best backline in the pro era.

I would say for a start that the Welsh 2005 and England 2001-3 backlines were arguably better.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 06 Aug 2012, 5:43 pm

That is the thing though Rodders, apart from a few examples, we have produced some real natural footballers who don't need to rely on raw pace or strength. Leinster are an exciting team who know how to break defences better than anyone in Europe, yet collectively Ireland are possibly the least threatening team in attack in the modern era. Seriously I think we are that bad. Would 7s cure that? I'm not so sure, because like I said, Leinster play a superb offloading/support game week in week out.

Ulster also have shown glimpses of this offloading/support game, and at times have played some sublime rugby. The same goes for Munster and even Connacht at times. However with Ireland? It is very rare that we ever threaten the opposition's defence. Unless we have Bowe.

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 7:17 pm

We miss the top end speed that this guy had.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFuVyB0R2hU

and here again ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m47gK-qTQM

Maybe why Zebo is being fastracked.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 7:20 pm

Rory I think we have had some very talented players over the past decade but on a whole our skill levels are sub standard.

7s would help that without question.

Its nothing to do with pace, 7s isn't going to make anyone quicker, what it does is help develop awareness, passing, vision, support play.

Leinster are the exception to the rule, they have very structured attacking patterns and well drilled units. Don't confuse that with having high skill levels. Once you take those players out of those units then they have struggled.

That is the difference between genuine high skills that are developed at a young age and reproducable in any envirorment and well coached, reasonably skillful players executing a a gameplan that suits them.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 06 Aug 2012, 9:29 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
left Shoulder

In your last couple post you have commented on how rugby is positioned lower in the pecking order in some Countys as opposed to some other sports.this bears a lot of resemblance to Rugby Union in some states of Australia, (Aussie Rules, Rugby league and Soccer) all though its not ideal, Australia does however consistently perform well on the International stage.

One thing the Aussies do, is take the good points out of the sports that compete with rugby union.

Yeah the Aussies are masters at getting the most of their sportsmen and women.I don't think that'll happen in Ireland since we don't have the same kind of commitment from our government to invest in sport.

I do think that we'll start to produce more rugby players in the future as the game is growing in popularity and clubs will start to spring up in new towns and counties.Irish rugby is also in the lucky position where we have no major professional sport to compete with,soccer is handicapped by the club system which will prevent us ever having a top tier team club and the G.A.A. is firmly committed to staying amateur so any sportsperson who wants to stay living in Ireland and play a professional sport will see seriously consider rugby.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 06 Aug 2012, 10:33 pm

Leftshoulder

When I make comments on these type of threads I do intentionally try to be positive in my opinions, as I dont want to be regarded as some know all from the other side of the World telling the Irish what they should or should not do to raise Rugby as a whole in Ireland, and its good to see you state reasons for why rugby should grow in your country in the forthcoming future.

Another idea came to my mind the other day in watching the Olympics, and that is the presence of Irish boxers. which suggest to me there must be a healthy groundcore of boxing gyms in your country.Over the last ten or twenty years or so boxing has been used a lot more by suburban coaches to form part of a training programme for a lot of teams in Auckland. its also a great tool to use when grounds have turned to mud and quality coaching is limited because of the environment. it also keeps players excited. Is boxing widely used by rugby coaches in Ireland as an alternative to usual training sessions?

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 10:49 pm

Auckland I certainly appreciate your point of view. I think we can be very insular over here and think that we are different to everywhere else and that models of success in other countries aren't relevent to us.

Personally I think that is bollox. Leinster have a NZ coach and play a NZ style of rugby and are arguably the best club side we've ever seen in Europe.

The boxers have shown what can be achieved, even with a small population, with a good set up, good coaching and a critical mass of success.

by Sin é Mon 06 Aug 2012, 10:56 pm

In fairness to the amateur Irish GAA lads, they destroyed the professional Aussies in the last (2011) Aussie Rules series in Australia. I think the Series wins are fairly even (7/8 each)

Not a good year for the Aussies when playing Ireland last year!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIRkOaoh_-0

by valjester Mon 06 Aug 2012, 10:59 pm

rodders wrote:Its nothing to do with pace, the skill levels and execution from the Irish players is nowhere near good enough. How many times do we fail to finish off scoring chances?

7s is a great way for young players to develop ball skills and awareness and a lot of NZs best players have come through the 7s circuit like Christian Cullen and Lomu.

Someone like Earls would have been an excellent 7s player and he would be a far better player than he is now if he'd have cut his teeth in 7s in my opinion. He wouldn't be still trying to develop basic skills and awareness as a seasoned international. Possibly McFadden and maybe even Trimble too.

Looking at the younger generation Gilroy, Madigan, K2, Zebo and Spence would get so much out of playing regular 7s. It's just so unfortunate that the IRFU don't see the value in it.

Earls did play sevens, he was part of the squad that qualified for the 09 world cup but had moved up to the senior ranks by the time it came around. Sevens is definitely worthwhile but there are other ways to develop skills. Gilroy, Madigan, Zebo and Spence might benefit from playing on the sevens circuit but the fact is that they just don't have the time to commit to the circuit. They are needed by the provinces.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 11:07 pm

Val I totally accept that but 7s is still another valuable outlet, that we don't use enough, for getting young players game time and developing skills.

Certainly there are other ways and its not silver bullet but I can't help thinking how much someone like Spence would benefit from a season of 7s.

by valjester Mon 06 Aug 2012, 11:15 pm

rodders wrote:Val I totally accept that but 7s is still another valuable outlet, that we don't use enough, for getting young players game time and developing skills.

Certainly there are other ways and its not silver bullet but I can't help thinking how much someone like Spence would benefit from a season of 7s.

There should definitely be space for it, but I just don't see where it can fit into the calendar. We don't have the finances nor the playing resources available to make it a worthwhile venture on the international circuit. If we were to just start up a team with a load of youngsters, we would end up being hammered every game and that would be of no benefit to those players. The only way to develop a successful approach would need for some players to become full time sevens players so that we have a core group of players. These players would have to be given central contracts as they would never be available for the provinces. Add this to the cost of the coaches and other staff, along with the travelling expenses and it would be way too expensive for the relatively small dividends we would receive.

by **rodders** Mon 06 Aug 2012, 11:30 pm

Fair points Val but as Laurie said above the players competing at 7s would be those who haven't yet made the provincial grade. Clearly provincial rugby would be a priority. I'm not disputing the logistical issues but I don't see why it isn't possible. International 7s would be a better way for some players to develop than the B&I cup I think.

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