Ireland in New Zealand- Summer Tour Review

by Thomond Mon 30 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been a long time coming, but my thoughts on our tourn in NZ are here, debate criticize do whatever the heck you want within site rules!

I think Irish fans entered the Summer tour with a sense of cautious optimism. The backbone of the team (Leinster/Ulster) both reached the final of the Heineken Cup with Leinster emerging victorious.
While, this provincial success was quite amazing, we Irish fans knew that at international level, we have often struggled. Many speculate over the reasons, in reality its is somewhere in between having players who aren't good enough and the tactics of Director of Rugby Declan Kidney and his staff. With the All Blacks replacing former coach Graham Henry with Steve Hansen, I think the Irish faithful saw the first test as their best opportunity to finally notch a win.

So the first game came, the Irish forwards put in an outstanding performance, Sean O'Brien, Rory Best and Declan Fitzpatrick were stellar. Ireland were arguably superior at the breakdown and had some dominance in the scrum. The problems lay outside. The Irish backs have struggled throughout Kidney's tenure, their back play is somewhat archaic and while try scoring isn't a huge issue for Ireland their creativity is. Kidney surprisingly picked a relatively inexperienced team, Simon Zebo and Declan Fitzpatrick gaining their first caps, Peter O'Mahony only had one previous cap while Brian O'Driscoll took on a new role at inside centre. Wingers Fergus McFadden and Simon Zebo were exposed, a lack of communication also proved to be a problem. McFadden got drawn in at times but he and Earls didn't communicate effectively resulting in some terrible gaps in defence. New Zealand winger grabbed three tries on his debut which largely culminated from poor Irish defence. A final score of 42-10 in favour of the All Blacks meant a bleak outlook, yet Irish fans knew if their backs could front up in the tackle and offer something going forward the match would be a lot tighter.

So the second test was held in Christchurch. . Ireland gave the All Blacks an almighty shock, with the home side eventually winning out on a scoreline of 22-19. Ireland made 4 changes. The injured Keith Earls was replaced by Gordon D'Arcy. Andrew Trimble was favoured ahead of Simon Zebo, Mike Ross replaced Declan Fitzpatrick and Kevin McLaughlin replaced Peter O'Mahony. While Victor Vito replaced Adam Thomson in the All Blacks line-up. The Irish forwards picked up where they left out showing superiority at the breakdown and also putting in a decent effort come scrum time. The backs also stood up and brought intensity and physicality that was absent in the first test. At times they showed some intricate backplay but mainly they used physical and powerful runners and recycled quickly . The Irish kept the All Blacks in the game by giving away silly and needless penalties, as the shell-shocked Kiwis struggled to create try scoring opportunities. They managed one in the second half but Ireland managed to tie the game at 19-19, and after Israel Dagg's sin binning for an aerial challenge on Rob Kearney, Ireland were awarded a penalty. While it seemed that captain Brian O'Driscoll wanted to go down the line with the resulting penalty, Johnny Sexton opted for the posts and his effort ultimately fell short. After a penalty which caused consternation among some Irish fans, the All Blacks marched down the field with Dan Carter sinking the winning drop goal to break Irish hearts.

The third test is something most Irish fans have blanked from their memory. In the absence of Dan Carter and Kieran Read, the All Blacks turned in a superb performance, Aaron Cruden and Sam Cane deputising brilliantly for the absent duo. The Irish team of the second test failed to turn up , the lacked physicality, slipped off tackles stood off the All Blacks and looked like they wanted to catch the plane home at times. Some mind-boggling selections like playing Paddy Wallace who only arrived in NZ on the Thursday of the game were a bit odd but all round Ireland were awful and this lead to an embarrassing 60-0 loss.

Irish team Analysis

Coaching staff

Declan Kidney - 5/10
While he obviously missed key players like Tommy Bowe, Paul O'Connell and Stephen Ferris, as well as the versatility of Luke Fitzgerald, the performances of the first and final test were poor. Our tactics were awful and we persisted to kick ball to the All Blacks without a good kick chase. While he isn't directly in charge of our backplay you have to feel his ideas have some merit, it's somewhat strange because his Munster played with more panache then the current Ireland backline do. I think that some fans place a bit too much blame on Kidney but he does deserve a fair bit and I think it might be time to get some new ideas into the Irish team and setup. His marks mainly come from the 2nd test performance and the decent play by our forwards in the first 2 games

Gert Smal- 8/10

The Irish forwards coach deserves immense praise for the way the pack played in the first two tests, they were dominant at the breakdown, the scrum was solid with new cap Declan Fitzpatrick and as good with Mike Ross. If Fitzpatrick can work on some of his fitness/health issues, then there is a spot available for him in the Irish setup.

Les Kiss- 4/10
The rating is admittedly harsh and I don't think it's all his fault, more the IRFU who seem to be insisting on Kiss working two jobs. When Kiss was solely our defensive coach, we had a very reliable defensive unit, conceding the least amount of points in the 2011 6 Nations (tied with England) and had the second best defence in 2009. Yet after the departure of Alan Gaffney, Kiss was also asked to take up the role of backs coach, our defence suffered a sharp decline, dropping from tied first to 4th overall. Our backplay hasn't been great either, at times we put some moves together but overall we seem to just go through the middle and hope gaps appear. Similar tactics work for the Welsh, but they have far more big target runners than Ireland have. I think Kiss could still do a very good job as our defence coach but I don't think he has what is takes to be a backs coach.

Players that enhanced their Reputations

Sean O'Brien- It might seem odd that a former ERC European Player of the year could do much more to enhance his reputation but "SOB" did. O'Brien confirmed that he is a superb backrow operator. While I think the Irish aren't in need of the classic "7" so many claim we need, O'Brien was a menace at the breakdown and arguably outshined Richie McCaw over the first two tests. O'Brien showed he has the ability to play all 3 backrow positions effectively at the highest level having seen him play 6 and 8 for his province and country.

Declan Fitzpatrick- While the Ulster man deputised for John Afoa in the Heineken Cup Semi final and played extremely well, I'm sure I wasn't the only Irish fan worried when I heard Mike Ross was definitely out of the first test. Fitzpatrick and his front partners Rory best and Cian Healy marshalled the All Blacks scrum, and enjoyed a bit of dominance at times but parity for the large part. Most of us expected trouble from the New Zealand scrum but credit to Fitzpatrick he was imperious. There's a spot in the Irish setup if he can work on his fitness and injury problems.

Cian Healy - At times, Healy has struggled in the international arena but over the tour he did a very good job on Owen Franks. He was used sparingly by the Irish in terms of ball carrying but we all know what he can do there and he was effective when used.

Donnacha Ryan- In the absence of Paul O'Connell, Ryan was very effective in the lineout while also disrupting at the breakdown and hitting tackles with incredible ferocity. He should partner O'Connell in the Autumn Internationals with Dan Tuohy, who performed solidly on the bench.

(c) Copyright 606v2 2012. Please do not reproduce without permission

Rest can be found here: http://v2journal.com/ireland-rugby--summer-tour-review.html

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:18 pm

When has Gilroy been caught out though? I genuinely can't remember any notable games where this has been the case, there is maybe one incident floating about in my head somewhere, but I do struggle to recall any occasions where he has been exposed in defence. I can remember a few occasions where he has done brilliantly in defence though.

As for Zebo, maybe it is because he has been caught out in the big games and that is why we are noticing it. Obviously Gilroy didn't get the chance against NZ, though I guarantee you that had he been at fault for a try, it would have been highlighted on here.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:20 pm

Thomond wrote:For the try? If he doesn't have much blame how is he frail in that instance? Is he frail in other scenarios yes a bit, it's his positioning more so than his tackling though.

That is one of the tougher tackles to make in rugby, could he have done better obviously but to say it makes him frail is harsh, I've seen Kearney miss one or two of those over the years, is he frail?

Just on the last point,yes Kearney is defensively frail,he buys dummies too easily and while he rarely falls off tackles completely he loses too many yards in the tackle.Defense is the one area Kearney really needs to work on imo.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:21 pm

Why is there some sort of Ulster conspiracy on here that we want to get all Ulster lads out of our team? Laugh

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:24 pm

Sin - you are right, people are too quick to criticise, we are all guilty of it though. I mean, you can compare Zebo to North and say one guy has been scoring tries for fun with Munster, and the other hasn't scored one try the entire season for the Scarlets. Plus North only scored one try during the 6 nations. For a winger, that isn't what you would expect.

However, within the right setup for Wales, he is one of their most important players. Which brings in what Stag said, players need to be used correctly and their faults can be ignored if you plan properly. Has ROG really ever been much of a problem defensively? Not really, because he has had a fantastic back row to cover for him.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:28 pm

Thomond wrote:Why is there some sort of Ulster conspiracy on here that we want to get all Ulster lads out of our team?

Thomond - Nobody thinks that. I certainly don't. This is nothing to do with Ulster, we are discussing a player. I am just saying Gilroy has done very well and has hardly put a foot wrong. He is one of our best young players. I just don't see why you have to try and find reasons to criticise him and compare him to Hickie in order to downplay his talent.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:33 pm

I'm not trying to downplay his talent, he is far better than what we have on the wing currently all I'm saying is he has been immune to criticism which is wrong. He deserves some when he is getting none and when you compare to what Zebo gets when they make similar mistakes (Zebo's are more frequent) I think that's wrong.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:45 pm

Thomond wrote:Why is there some sort of Ulster conspiracy on here that we want to get all Ulster lads out of our team?

No I think you'd rather criticise a player from another province, who doesn't deserve it, than criticise one from your own that possibly does.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 4:46 pm

Thomond wrote:I'm not trying to downplay his talent, he is far better than what we have on the wing currently all I'm saying is he has been immune to criticism which is wrong. He deserves some when he is getting none and when you compare to what Zebo gets when they make similar mistakes (Zebo's are more frequent) I think that's wrong.

Can you cite some examples of these mistakes he makes that he doesn't get criticise for?

by Sin é Tue 31 Jul 2012, 5:26 pm

Not really a mistake - but Gilroy's try scoring ratios per game could be improved (and he is in a team that scored a lot of tries last season).

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:29 pm

Ah the old provincial chestnut. Rodders, I have been posting on here for aobut 15 months, a year or so on 606, are you seriously suggesting that now is the time I would start ragging on other provinces players and show a hatred for them?

I have seen him get caught out with kicks in behind once or twice do I have precise times. Is he better than Zebo absolutely he is, I have said this. Is he immune to criticism? No player is that's my main gripe, he makes some mistakes, few admittedly that do get glossed over and Zebo's big mstakes are scrutinised deservedly, and his smaller ones are also judged harshly.

I would say both players have similar holes in their game right now, but Gilroy's holes are smaller. I think they are positioning, passing and decision making. Gilroy is far more along the road into eradicating them, it's his 3rd season of pro rugby and I'm looking forward to see how he copes with the challenge of Bowe and Trimble. Wish the lad well and hope he pushes himself into the Irish setup.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:41 pm

Thomond none of that explains why you are discussing Gilroy and pointing what weaknesses you feel he has in relation to Zebo on a thread which is about Ireland summer tour to NZ.

Regardless of what holes are in Gilroys game, and in my opinion there aren't many for a young player, they are not in any way relevent to the flaws in Zebos.

You are basically calling here for Gilroy to get more criticism because Zebo didn't play well in his Ireland debut?

Zebo is an Ireland international now and thus his performances will be debated on threads related to Ireland and the games he plays in. As Gilroy isn't I don't get how he can warrant criticism.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:43 pm

Thomond wrote:Ah the old provincial chestnut. Rodders, I have been posting on here for aobut 15 months, a year or so on 606, are you seriously suggesting that now is the time I would start ragging on other provinces players and show a hatred for them?

I have seen him get caught out with kicks in behind once or twice do I have precise times. Is he better than Zebo absolutely he is, I have said this. Is he immune to criticism? No player is that's my main gripe, he makes some mistakes, few admittedly that do get glossed over and Zebo's big mstakes are scrutinised deservedly, and his smaller ones are also judged harshly.

I would say both players have similar holes in their game right now, but Gilroy's holes are smaller. I think they are positioning, passing and decision making. Gilroy is far more along the road into eradicating them, it's his 3rd season of pro rugby and I'm looking forward to see how he copes with the challenge of Bowe and Trimble. Wish the lad well and hope he pushes himself into the Irish setup.

I'd say the reason Zebo gets more criticism is simply because he has been catapulted into the Irish team ahead of Gilroy.When the two players performances are analysed most people agree that at the moment Gilroy is the better player and so to back up their stance highlight Zebo's mistakes and Gilroys strengths.

Zebo also came through this season with a bang especially in the HC and I think this has fostered higher expectations of him than are realistic.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:45 pm

I actually wouldn't say Gilroy is better. That is not what I am saying.

I just don't think Gilroy is relevent to this topic.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:48 pm

We've kinda moved on from the NZ tour Rodders, I was talking in general as opposed to the NZ tour . This is a similar lateral move to when someone brings up the Irish forwards and we end up in a b!tching match about Sexton with Sin é.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:52 pm

Fair enough, lets leave it eh guinness

For the record I think both Gilroy and Zebo are talented young players and hopefully along with Dave Kearney will win may caps and score plenty of international tries over the next decade.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 6:54 pm

Exactly, Gilroy is superior to Zebo right now, but you would expect Zebo to improve with Dougie opposite him.

by **Notch** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 8:19 pm

It's going to be an exciting battle over the years for a place in the team between Zebo and Gilroy anyway.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 8:22 pm

It will be for sure, Zebo is one of the most exciting runners I've ever seen, place lights up when he has the ball not many guys have that. Gilroy will more than likely always be more rounded but I suppose Shane Williams had some deficiencies and Wales managed to get him to feature (I'm not comparing Zebo and Shane before someone has a heart attack) while we covered up ROGs average defending.

by **Notch** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 8:29 pm

Not to forget Gilroy also has a pretty sharp step on him! The prospect of the two of them in the same team is mouthwatering if we can unearth a couple of centres who can take it to the line and pass the ball... Yeah, and they'll need to defend a bit more solidly too. But still exciting. We have a lot of very exciting backs coming through. Hope that talent is utilised.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 8:32 pm

"Cough "JJ and Earls "Cough." Run

by Feckless Rogue Tue 31 Jul 2012, 8:40 pm

If you're worried about defensive frailty in a young winger then Kearney Jr. is probably the safest pair of hands. He doesn't have any glaring weaknesses to his game. He's got strength, speed, defence, good under the high ball.

He definately doesn't light up a game with the ball in hand the Zebo or Gilroy can. But he does score tries. I wonder would he rival his older brother for the full back spot in the next few seasons.

I've also heard a poster here (I think it was SecretFly) mention him as a possible 13? What do ye think?

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 8:55 pm

I think he could make the transition, don't know if Schimdt or the Irish setup would move him in there but yeah I could see him there.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 9:03 pm

I think Kearney jr is the most exciting prospect of the lot.

I think it was the fly who said he could play 13 but its something I thought too. Maybe isn't an out and out winger the way Gilroy and Zebo are but has more awareness and is a better footballer.

Dare I say it but K2 reminds me a bit of Nacewa or even Shaggy. He's as much a creater as a finisher.

by **Notch** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 9:04 pm

Thomond wrote:"Cough "JJ and Earls "Cough."

Well yes, obviously Keith Earls is already an established international class player but;

Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, Marshall, Kearney Jnr., Conway, Gilroy, Zebo...

Yes there are a few exciting prospects in the backs alright.

by Thomond Tue 31 Jul 2012, 9:05 pm

Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

by **rodders** Tue 31 Jul 2012, 9:10 pm

I think we do have coaching talent. Elwood had done a fantastic job at Connacht.There's Bradley and McCall.
Brian McLaughlin.

Kidney has been scapegoated a bit, his tactical nouse isn't there but its the blazers at the IRFU are the real problem.

by Sin é Tue 31 Jul 2012, 9:17 pm

Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Conor O'Shea being interviewed at the IRFU's national coaching conference

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=12463

and

Joe Schmidt interview at same conference.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=12463

by **rodders** Wed 01 Aug 2012, 8:49 am

Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

by asoreleftshoulder Wed 01 Aug 2012, 11:10 am

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 11:23 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

I posted a post from a Leinster fan from Kilkenny who was peed off from hearing Ian Dowling being slagged off by Leinster fans in Welford Rd for ffs.

Now, if you want further evidence of the regard that Dowling and Ronan are held in by Leinster fans I suggest respectfully that you get yourself to Leinsterfans and do a search on Ian Dowling and Niall Ronan. Considering they were/are not front line internationals, its amazing the amount of attention they have got.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed 01 Aug 2012, 11:26 am

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

I posted a post from a Leinster fan from Kilkenny who was peed off from hearing Ian Dowling being slagged off by Leinster fans in Welford Rd for ffs.

Now, if you want further evidence of the regard that Dowling and Ronan are held in by Leinster fans I suggest respectfully that you get yourself to Leinsterfans and do a search on Ian Dowling and Niall Ronan. Considering they were/are not front line internationals, its amazing the amount of attention they have got.

Ok so because you "detest" sexton, should i assume all munster fans do? Just going by your logic here.

by Thomond Wed 01 Aug 2012, 11:29 am

Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Conor O'Shea being interviewed at the IRFU's national coaching conference

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=12463

and

Joe Schmidt interview at same conference.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=12463

God no. Thank feic for that, absolutely hate Cork Con. I'm a Highfield man through and through will always be an bumhole of society.

I don't dislike ROG, I'm just one of those few Musnter fans who notices that he has declined and doesn't put my fingers in my ears and think everything is okay. His best asset to his game has been steadily going down for about 2 seasons.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed 01 Aug 2012, 11:31 am

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

I posted a post from a Leinster fan from Kilkenny who was peed off from hearing Ian Dowling being slagged off by Leinster fans in Welford Rd for ffs.

Now, if you want further evidence of the regard that Dowling and Ronan are held in by Leinster fans I suggest respectfully that you get yourself to Leinsterfans and do a search on Ian Dowling and Niall Ronan. Considering they were/are not front line internationals, its amazing the amount of attention they have got.

On the same thread you criticised a poster for using wikipedia as a source yet when it suits you a single anonymous quote on the internet represents the feelings of the majority of Leinster fans.

I don't need to go searching forums for posts that support your theory,I know it's wrong because I am a Leinster fan and have been attending games for over ten years.In that time I've never heard any criticism of either player from the crowd or from other Leinster fans who I've met.

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:37 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

I posted a post from a Leinster fan from Kilkenny who was peed off from hearing Ian Dowling being slagged off by Leinster fans in Welford Rd for ffs.

Now, if you want further evidence of the regard that Dowling and Ronan are held in by Leinster fans I suggest respectfully that you get yourself to Leinsterfans and do a search on Ian Dowling and Niall Ronan. Considering they were/are not front line internationals, its amazing the amount of attention they have got.

Ok so because you "detest" sexton, should i assume all munster fans do? Just going by your logic here.

I've explained why I don't like or rate Sexton (just let me know if you want me to go through it again - I don't want to bore the others).

by **rodders** Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:41 pm

Because he tried to kill Mafi?... Headscratch

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:41 pm

Thomond wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Conor O'Shea being interviewed at the IRFU's national coaching conference

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=12463

and

Joe Schmidt interview at same conference.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv?play=media&id=12463

God no. Thank feic for that, absolutely hate Cork Con. I'm a Highfield man through and through will always be an bumhole of society.

I don't dislike ROG, I'm just one of those few Musnter fans who notices that he has declined and doesn't put my fingers in my ears and think everything is okay. His best asset to his game has been steadily going down for about 2 seasons.

Ah you admit to 'hating' Cork Con.

I find some of your comments snide and very disrespectful to Kidney & ROG, considering what they have both delivered for Munster. While you have every right to criticise, you seem to take too much pleasure in doing it.

by Thomond Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:44 pm

I don't really see that they're disresepctful, because I think ROG is a palyer on the down I'm disrespecting him? I have said the same about DOC and D'Arcy. Kidney, well he will always be a hero and legend of Irish Rugby for what he has done but there comes a time when these people are no longer effective at the top stage. Kidney doesn't seem to be delivering for Ireland that's why I don't want him in charge.

As for hating Con, you will find that most people who don't play for Con do.

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:48 pm

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"]

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

I posted a post from a Leinster fan from Kilkenny who was peed off from hearing Ian Dowling being slagged off by Leinster fans in Welford Rd for ffs.

Now, if you want further evidence of the regard that Dowling and Ronan are held in by Leinster fans I suggest respectfully that you get yourself to Leinsterfans and do a search on Ian Dowling and Niall Ronan. Considering they were/are not front line internationals, its amazing the amount of attention they have got.

On the same thread you criticised a poster for using wikipedia as a source yet when it suits you a single anonymous quote on the internet represents the feelings of the majority of Leinster fans.

I didn't criticise the poster. I criticised the information that he got from wiki which is known to be wrong on occasion and for something like what the name of a state is, it is best to go to the government website of that country or check out the UN/EU list of countries.

I do use wiki, but I'd be careful about some of the information it gives out.

I don't need to go searching forums for posts that support your theory,I know it's wrong because I am a Leinster fan and have been attending games for over ten years.In that time I've never heard any criticism of either player from the crowd or from other Leinster fans who I've met.

Delighted you have met all 20K of Leinster fans and know exactly what they think and say. Leinsterfans will give you a different picture - you obviously must not have met anyone who posts there then!

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:53 pm

Thomond wrote:I don't really see that they're disresepctful, because I think ROG is a palyer on the down I'm disrespecting him? I have said the same about DOC and D'Arcy. Kidney, well he will always be a hero and legend of Irish Rugby for what he has done but there comes a time when these people are no longer effective at the top stage. Kidney doesn't seem to be delivering for Ireland that's why I don't want him in charge.

As for hating Con, you will find that most people who don't play for Con do.

Its the snide comments and you just seem to delight in having a go at him. I suppose you are the same with DOC & D'Arcy. Its a soccerish attitude I suppose.

saying that " ... we had some head coaching talent." is disrespectful to a coach who has achieved all that Kidney has. You bitch about the decline DOC & D'Arcy, yet you seem to not take that into account when Kidney has to use them (though you can't blame any of them for the 3rd test match debacle).

by LeinsterFan4life Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:54 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Thomond wrote:Yes we have a load of talented centres and backline talent coming through no if we had some head coaching talent.

As a matter of interest, are you a Cork Con man ? (though that doesn't explain your dislike of ROG).

Can only non-Cork people be critical of a Cork native?

Is it possible you think to criticise a players performance without liking or disliking them?

Well Sin believes (without a shred of evidence) that Leinster fans detest Niall Ronan and Ian Dowling because they played for Munster.That shows how he thinks on the subject.

I posted a post from a Leinster fan from Kilkenny who was peed off from hearing Ian Dowling being slagged off by Leinster fans in Welford Rd for ffs.

Now, if you want further evidence of the regard that Dowling and Ronan are held in by Leinster fans I suggest respectfully that you get yourself to Leinsterfans and do a search on Ian Dowling and Niall Ronan. Considering they were/are not front line internationals, its amazing the amount of attention they have got.

Ok so because you "detest" sexton, should i assume all munster fans do? Just going by your logic here.

I've explained why I don't like or rate Sexton (just let me know if you want me to go through it again - I don't want to bore the others).

You dont seem to understand the point i was trying to make.

by Thomond Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:57 pm

He has to use them as he ignored the likes of Ryan for too long. We have talent in the second row, DOC doesn not need to start for Ireland, and shouldn't be in the squad unless he picks it up. Centre, we have less talent at the moment admittedly not many guys getting game time there other than Wallace. I would prefer to see paddy play there and we need Irish guys like JJ and Marshall playing there next season and maybe even McFadden although I'm not convinced by him.

It was admittedly a harsh and snide comment but I have lost faith in Deccie and I think frustration is starting to creep over. There was no need for it though you're right there.

I don't know why I would delight in having a go at anyone, why would I want to see my team underachieve? That makes no sense.

by **rodders** Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:02 pm

Thomond wrote:I don't really see that they're disresepctful, because I think ROG is a palyer on the down I'm disrespecting him? I have said the same about DOC and D'Arcy. Kidney, well he will always be a hero and legend of Irish Rugby for what he has done but there comes a time when these people are no longer effective at the top stage. Kidney doesn't seem to be delivering for Ireland that's why I don't want him in charge.

Sounds like a reasonable enough opinion to have if you ask me.

However I bet you took a lot of pleasure from typing "I think ROG is a palyer on the down" though.

Shame on you Thom.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:08 pm

Sin, don't tell me you sit at home reading the Leinsterfans forums, looking for evidence to support your belief that everyone from Dublin are evil west brits.

by Thomond Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:19 pm

He wouldn't be wrong there though FR. Don't get me started on those Drogheda lads. 6 toed freaks!

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:21 pm

Thomond wrote:He has to use them as he ignored the likes of Ryan for too long.

Ryan was injured for most of last year, but made the world cup. Anyway, its Gert Smal who is a big fan of DOCs.

We have talent in the second row, DOC doesn not need to start for Ireland, and shouldn't be in the squad unless he picks it up. Centre, we have less talent at the moment admittedly not many guys getting game time there other than Wallace. I would prefer to see paddy play there and we need Irish guys like JJ and Marshall playing there next season and maybe even McFadden although I'm not convinced by him.

Thats right. JJ is a kid, Marshall hardly got to play Ulster last year becuase of injury and D'Arcy is keeping Mcfadden out of the Leinster inside centre spot.

It was admittedly a harsh and snide comment but I have lost faith in Deccie and I think frustration is starting to creep over. There was no need for it though you're right there.

Fair play to you for admitting that. There are enough snide and unpleasant comments dished out to your fellow corkmen without you jumping on the bandwaggon as well.

I don't know why I would delight in having a go at anyone, why would I want to see my team underachieve? That makes no sense.

No it doesn't make any sense. Thats why I wanted to know if it was some Cork club rivalry thing.

by Thomond Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:24 pm

Not at all, I don't like Cork Con, stemming from my own experiences at underage (they're not good at underage but that's not part of the point would take a long time to explain) at senior level they tended to have a monopoly on Munster Cork palyers and I think a lot of their success in the AIL was a bit undeserving as a result.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:49 pm

Do you not find it disrespectful how you talk about Sexton, Sin E? Or does this only apply to Munster folks (again)?

So far, not one person on these forums apart from yourself has expressed a real hatred for a certain player/coach. That is the only real evidence we have, and using fan boy sites (which would be the same for all provinces or clubs) are not really the best sources. Sure the Saints' fans on their supporter's website were standing up for Callum Clarke and his actions! Yet on here it was a different story, and nobody supported his actions and many claimed he deserved a much longer ban.

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:59 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Sin, don't tell me you sit at home reading the Leinsterfans forums, looking for evidence to support your belief that everyone from Dublin are evil west brits.

I don't have to look it up. I've seen it with my own eyes and heard with my own ears at Leinster v Munster games in the RDS. I've heard by own Leinster fan friends slagging them off at matches.

The Leinster fans is an obvious place to look for such comments when asked for evidence. All you have to do is goggle it - only takes a second.

by Sin é Wed 01 Aug 2012, 4:01 pm

Thomond wrote:Not at all, I don't like Cork Con, stemming from my own experiences at underage (they're not good at underage but that's not part of the point would take a long time to explain) at senior level they tended to have a monopoly on Munster Cork palyers and I think a lot of their success in the AIL was a bit undeserving as a result.

I think we are agreeing that it has something to do with club rivalry in Cork and I know Cork Con are not popular anywhere.

by asoreleftshoulder Wed 01 Aug 2012, 4:06 pm

[quote="Sin é"]

On the same thread you criticised a poster for using wikipedia as a source yet when it suits you a single anonymous quote on the internet represents the feelings of the majority of Leinster fans.

I didn't criticise the poster. I criticised the information that he got from wiki which is known to be wrong on occasion and for something like what the name of a state is, it is best to go to the government website of that country or check out the UN/EU list of countries.

I do use wiki, but I'd be careful about some of the information it gives out.

That doesn't make my point any less relevant,if wiki is known to be wrong on occasion then anonymous quotes are wrong frequently yet you have no problem putting this forward as valid proof of your wild theory.

I don't need to go searching forums for posts that support your theory,I know it's wrong because I am a Leinster fan and have been attending games for over ten years.In that time I've never heard any criticism of either player from the crowd or from other Leinster fans who I've met.

Delighted you have met all 20K of Leinster fans and know exactly what they think and say. Leinsterfans will give you a different picture - you obviously must not have met anyone who posts there then!

I'll use the real world to judge and like I've told you 10 years going to matches and talking rugby with Leinster fans shows me that you're wrong.
Also there far more than 20K Leinster fans and if I need to have met them all and know exactly what they're thinking to justify my point then so do you.
Get out in the real world Sin and maybe you'll learn something about what real Leinster fans are like.

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