Poms - cheating scum or misunderstood geniuses?

Ok, so team GB pick up a win in the track cycling, then one of them (Hindes) reveals that they had a poor start so he deliberately crashed so the race would be restarted.

Is this cheating? Should they be disqualified? How does this compare to the Chinese and Koreans dropping a badminton game to get a better draw in the knockout stages? Or is this just clever riding from the English?

Is Chris Hoy English??

Unfortunately, their position is untenable........this was cheating

Hindes is German.

If he hadnt crashed could they have been thrown out for not trying to win?

dallym wrote:Ok, so team GB pick up a win in the track cycling, then one of them (Hindes) reveals that they had a poor start so he deliberately crashed so the race would be restarted.

Is this cheating? Should they be disqualified? How does this compare to the Chinese and Koreans dropping a badminton game to get a better draw in the knockout stages? Or is this just clever riding from the English?

It depends on whether or not he did anything against the rules.

Is there a rule specifically outlawing the crashing of bikes..? If not, then he did nothing illegal and therefore he isn't a cheat. However, I would agree that what he did could be construed as immoral and not in the spirit of fair play.

This does not bear comparison with the Badminton scandal because in that case, rules were clearly broken. Badminton has a rule specifically requiring players to give of their best and a system of penalties and sanctions is in place to punish those who transgress it. Not so in cycling it would appear.

It would have been better if Hindes had kept his mouth shut, and any controversy over this issue should teach him to do that in future.

As for the OP, his use of the word "Poms", and his mistaking of Chris Hoy as English (he's Scottish, actually and try telling him, or any Scot come to that, that there is no difference) suggests to me that he may possible be....... an Australian, perhaps..?

I don't think this one will go away, despite the BBC's attempts to cover it up.............What we need to know are the RULES.......id be amazed if the rules allowed a situation where you are ALLOWED to deliberately crash, accidentaly maybe..............after the shocking home town decision in yesterdays boxing in favour of British boxer Ogogo, it's not looking good.......................

John Cregan wrote:I don't think this one will go away, despite the BBC's attempts to cover it up.............What we need to know are the RULES.......id be amazed if the rules allowed a situation where you are ALLOWED to deliberately crash, accidentaly maybe..............after the shocking home town decision in yesterdays boxing in favour of British boxer Ogogo, it's not looking good.......................

There doesn't have to be a rule specifically allowing any action of any kind.

For something to be illegal, there DOES have to be a rule outlawing an act that this incident would specifically fall into.

I hope 606 posters never sit on any jury where I'm the defendant.


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This sort of incident is regrettable and Hindes should have kept his mouth shut.

What he has done is give GB's opponents a stick to beat them with. This situation is likely to be exploited by competitors like the Australians and others who feel they cannot beat GB on the track unless they can put some pressure on the team and break their concentration and team unity.

This sort of tactic is intended to get cyclists having to deal with microphones and cameras in their faces when they should be focusing on their event.

Hindes has been naive in speaking out and has handed Britain's beleagured opponents a lifeline. I'm sure they'll play it for all it's worth.

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http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/cycling/philip-hindes-admits-deliberately-crashing-to-help-propel-sir-chris-hoy-and-team-gb-to-team-sprint-gold-8004736.html

Clippet from link:

The 19-year-old German-born rider, who has a British father and joined British Cycling's academy in October 2010, said: "We were saying if we have a bad start we need to crash to get a restart. I just crashed, I did it on purpose to get a restart, just to have the fastest ride.

"I did it. So it was all planned, really."

British Cycling suggested Hindes' comments were "lost in translation" from a man who began learning English only after moving to Manchester to train at the velodrome, while the International Cycling Union confirmed the result was not in question, with Britain taking gold ahead of France and Germany bronze.

There was no rule to govern the incident and no appeal is possible, with France accepting the final outcome.

So, there it is. According to the International Cycling Union, no wrongdoing has occurred. France have accepted the outcome.

Where is the problem..?


Unless, of course, I'm right in my speculation that this "scandal" is motivated by desperation on the part of GB's opponents. Hmmm....?

.

I think this is pretty bad to be honest. Not Badminton players bad but not too far off in my opinion. They mightn't have broken rules but I think it certainly taints it a fair bit. Ogogo robbed his opponent too.

So long as competitors compete "In the true spirit of sportsmanship" then its fine.

Thomond wrote:I think this is pretty bad to be honest. Not Badminton players bad but not too far off in my opinion. They mightn't have broken rules but I think it certainly taints it a fair bit. Ogogo robbed his opponent too.

This is the "Spirit of fair play argument, Thom, and I would agree that there is a case to answer there.

But it is the use of the word "Cheats" that is emotive and, I suspect deliberately, intended to inflame the situation. That's the kind of language that needs to be toned down if there is to be a reasonable discussion on the subject.

"Cheating Scum"..... That's pretty strong.

To label somebody as a cheat when they have done nothing legally wrong is as anti-spirit-of-fair-play as the act itself. Nobody comes out of it with any credit.


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Well it is kind of like how in rugby everyone calls the Kiwis cheating basterds at ruck time (no different to anyone else). Yet the fail to realise how their own teams are tryign to do the same thing. just aren't good at doing it. The "Cheat" may be a bit strong. Abusing the system certainly.

I dont ike the word ´cheat´ either but what Hinds did yesterday was not acceptable in my opinion.

Thomond wrote:Well it is kind of like how in rugby everyone calls the Kiwis cheating basterds at ruck time (no different to anyone else). Yet the fail to realise how their own teams are tryign to do the same thing. just aren't good at doing it. The "Cheat" may be a bit strong. Abusing the system certainly.

I agree your point entirely. Richie McCaw has been getting away with it for years, but don't we just love him..?

At Leicester, they used to call it "Playing on the edge of the rules", then Dean Richards went to Harlequins and we all know how that ended in tears, don't we..? Now, THAT was cheating..!!

Just to leave nobody in any doubt where I stand.... I think there is an issue to answer for here. Management needs to deal with this and the best way to deal with it would probably for everybody to get together and be given a reminder that the world is watching and they need to be whiter than white in future. A carefully worded statement to the press to take the heat out of things and then let's move on and get on with the Games.

Sorted.


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Richie woulnt be seen dead crashing his bike though.

I don't Richie would need to use a bike. Great player and puishes the limit of the laws like all good backrow players should.

Actually his leisure interest is as a pilot, guess theres a difference between crashing a bike and crashing a plane.

I am sure that i saw a hand tap the back of Hinds bike when he started. A rather large chap wearing an AB jersy was then seen to merge into the crowd. Damn McCaw just cant keep himself out of the news

It could have been John Terry on the lap of honur Billy.

Billy, me old mate.

Now tell me is crashing a bike as bad as crashing a helicopter? Mr Hinds only a boy.

Yeah, blame Terry Thom

Laurie, only hard men crash helicopters

Well he seems to enjoy victories thoroughly that he had no part in.

Spoiler:

Nothing like a coupla hundred litres of Av gas too make it interesting eh?

Only when it ignites but the tanks dont ignite

Jennifer1984 wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/cycling/philip-hindes-admits-deliberately-crashing-to-help-propel-sir-chris-hoy-and-team-gb-to-team-sprint-gold-8004736.html

Clippet from link:

The 19-year-old German-born rider, who has a British father and joined British Cycling's academy in October 2010, said: "We were saying if we have a bad start we need to crash to get a restart. I just crashed, I did it on purpose to get a restart, just to have the fastest ride.

"I did it. So it was all planned, really."

British Cycling suggested Hindes' comments were "lost in translation" from a man who began learning English only after moving to Manchester to train at the velodrome, while the International Cycling Union confirmed the result was not in question, with Britain taking gold ahead of France and Germany bronze.

There was no rule to govern the incident and no appeal is possible, with France accepting the final outcome.

So, there it is. According to the International Cycling Union, no wrongdoing has occurred. France have accepted the outcome.

Where is the problem..?


Unless, of course, I'm right in my speculation that this "scandal" is motivated by desperation on the part of GB's opponents. Hmmm....?

.

Agree that the Headline of this Article is provacative and unnecessary........

However, Not sure what this has to do with France or why it is up to France to be happy or not. This incident happened in qualification, so it's the team in 9th place who didn't qualify that was hard done by and all other teams as well who did qualify....... France are delighted with their silver, so was the competion to be re-run without GB, they may not have done as well..........

dallym wrote:Ok, so team GB pick up a win in the track cycling, then one of them (Hindes) reveals that they had a poor start so he deliberately crashed so the race would be restarted.

Is this cheating? Should they be disqualified? How does this compare to the Chinese and Koreans dropping a badminton game to get a better draw in the knockout stages? Or is this just clever riding from the English?

England and Great Britain are not the same thing.

He shoudn't have crashed really, he should have just put his hand up.

If something goes wrong at the start (even if it's rider error), they generally get a restart as long as they react straight away.

Sounds to me like he had some kind of glitch leaving the gate and decided to fall just to make it obvious ...
Probably didn't need to , and probably shouldn't have said anything afterwards

Clearly hasn't bothered his opponents , though no doubt it will be food for Brit - bashers in the twitter sphere...

Teacup. Storm in.

Sounds to me like dallym is a bitter Aussie.

Agree though that Hindes was stupid to say anything about it. While crashing may not have contravened any rules, it certainly goes against the spirit of "fair play" and of course gives Brit-bashers more ammunition to have a whinge.

I'm sure no Aussie sportsperson has ever indulged in rule bending or underhanded behaviour of any kind...stones and glass houses etc.

if we were to compare it to rugby, would Richie McCaw fake an injury in an attempt to get the game to start again if NZ had a poor start? Heck no. He played the World Cup on one foot

Every single country in the world of cycling would have done exactly the same thing if it had happened to them. That's why you don't here any of them complaining and all the moaning coming from us.

To be fair, the French bent the rules by putting a sprinter in their Road Race team and the Germans put a sprinter in their mountain bike team.

Neither had any intention of going further than 10 metres, but it boosted their chances nonetheless.

Yeah it's pretty bad. It would have been irrelevant such was the margin of victory but it is unacceptable as a matter of principle

was senna a dirty cheat?

Is maradonna a dirty cheat?

djlovesyou wrote:To be fair, the French bent the rules by putting a sprinter in their Road Race team and the Germans put a sprinter in their mountain bike team.

Neither had any intention of going further than 10 metres, but it boosted their chances nonetheless.

pointless argument am afraid.

am not sure where it boosted their chance, the french had to put a sprinter in the RR just to allow him to compete in the keirin where he has medal chances (as after he was selected someone found out about this stupid rule saying that to compete in keirin you have to compete in another cyclist event). in fact they were strictly applying the rules as opposed to bending them.

the brits did well in using a rule that allow them to have another restart. the french coach said it was a "clever" move afterwards but that's nonetheless a tricky/unfair move although it is in no way cheating nor that bad.
again its irrelevant such is the preparation of the UK track cyclists : they have been beating world record after world record within a couple of days and if it wasnt for the women disqualifying they would simply win everything...GB men team spint hadnt won anything major between the olympics being beaten on regular basis by the french who were catching up with them and out of nowhere they destroy them here.

mystiroakey wrote:was senna a dirty cheat?

Is maradonna a dirty cheat?

What did Senna do? Not into the motorsport really. Maradona at times yes

Is every single footballer a cheat?

every sportsmen(bar golfers offcourseunless its matchplay) use gamesmanship.


Thats what this lad did- anyway its the way sport is these days- its cynical- but he is foolish for admiting it!

I say we impose a rule that you can only post if your country has more than 1 gold medal.

Sorry dallym, I'm afraid you'll have to leave

Bit harsh on the Irish lads!

Thomond wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:was senna a dirty cheat?

Is maradonna a dirty cheat?

What did Senna do? Not into the motorsport really. Maradona at times yes

senna was naughty!!

final race of the championship . Senna was leading the championship and only prost could beat him- so he did the below

"Ayrton Senna clinched the 1990 world championship in a deeply
controversial Japanese Grand Prix. He rammed into rival Alain Prost at
the first corner at Suzuka, taking both of them out of the race."

mystiroakey wrote:was senna a dirty cheat?

Is maradonna a dirty cheat?

But did Senna and Maradonna have an obligation to comply with the "Olympic Oath"?..... Whereas I do think the Great Britain cycling team competeing in the Olympic games are..

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hindes is German.

If he hadnt crashed could they have been thrown out for not trying to win?

Well Hindes certainly speaks with a Jerry accent. Therefore, it is more in the cheating bracket than the genius bracket as it is like the Welsh Rugby situation back in 2002 when the then Wales coach Kiwi Graham Henry picked former All Black Shane Howarth and fellow kiwi Brett Sinkinson on the basis that either or both of them had some Welsh ancestery/blood somewhere in their family tree.

Oakey, I suppose that's playing the game and playing smart really even if it was a bit reckless. I think the lads played the system, didn't contravene the rules so it isn't cheating but probably not the best of sportsmanship. I would say it is on the same line as the badminton but a lot, lot less severe.

Thomond wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:was senna a dirty cheat?

Is maradonna a dirty cheat?

What did Senna do? Not into the motorsport really. Maradona at times yes

Senna wasn't, Maradona wasn't until he got caught!

what is this olympic oath dude?

is it some religious thing?

Youve never heard of the Olympic Oath? True?

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Youve never heard of the Olympic Oath? True?

who are they oathing to? Is it a greek god?

A Great Britain competetor would have taken it behalf of the other competitors, It happens at the start of every Olympics, and in it the competitors not only give promise to compete within the rules BUT ALso in the true spirit of sportmanship ( or words to that effect , Sorry i dont know it off by heart.)