Sports Science

I generally class myself as a fit guy (as you all probably know), training reguarly and maintaining a balanced diet.

A few years ago I went through the young mans phase of buying products with names like "ripped fuel" in my quest to become bigger/stronger/faster. Needless to say I didnt see any benefit (other than some bad headaches) in taking these products and personally feel that a balanced diet works wonders. You have nutritionists earning silly money for doing something that you can research for free.

The only "supplement" I go near is the odd protein shake, and this is purely a convienience thing.

Keeping things simple and eating normal foods is the way forward...

Opinions/thoughts/experiences?

I thought I clicked on the Boxing section this afternoon...

Don't buy "Ripped Fuel" from shady looking blokes with odd facial hair?

two_tone wrote:I thought I clicked on the Boxing section this afternoon...

Yeah, clearly a subject not applicable to boxers. After all they dont diet and/or take supplements.

Clown

AlexHuckerby wrote:Don't buy "Ripped Fuel" from shady looking blokes with odd facial hair?

Alex, I'd tell you to buy a personality but being a lacky in HR (or whatever it is you do) means you probably can't afford one.

You're like Tina's little run around, only without the charm or wit.

Think someone has got the roid rage...

As you may know I am not a fit guy so my comments are from a position of openly acknowledged ignorance but you would have to think, given their widespread usage across so many sports that they have some benefit but I have my doubts about the percentage increase they really give you and I do wonder if a lot of boxers see them as a shortcut.

As you have alluded to there is no real replacement for hard training, the right diet and living right. If a fighter is doing all of this and taking the right supplements no reason to think they would not give him an extra couple of percent. Look at a guy like Fernando Vargas, towards the end of his career he came into the ring looking like he was ready to enter Mr Universe but was blowing out of his backside after 8 rounds and was all but washed up by his late 20’s. Also supplements will not give you talent or replace what the gods have chose not to give you, Khan has about the best in the business with Ariza, does not give him the ability to take a punch or the tactical nous to hang on once that has happened.

Got a few friends that swear by Maximuscle Cyclone...

two_tone wrote:Think someone has got the roid rage...

You're like a bad smell...

TopHat24/7 wrote:Got a few friends that swear by Maximuscle Cyclone...

Swear by it in what sense. They stop using at and their performance is vastly reduced.

The thing people dont realise is that all the ingrediants in these products can be bought in Asda. Jack 3d (which a lot of gym mates take) is essentially just a load of caffiene.

I think it depends on your level of training. Most people train around their full time job. Personally I think the balanced diet approach is the most sensible for most frequent gym users.

For example the body can only process a certain amount of protein, some thing like 5g/ hour (probably way off, but the theory holds, 1 grilled chicken fillet worth) it can't store it, so unless your body needs it, it's a bit of a waste to fill up on protein shakes. Now if your a serious athelete who trains during the day as opposed to after work, it would make sense to take protein shakes, as your muscles are going to need the fuel.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Don't buy "Ripped Fuel" from shady looking blokes with odd facial hair?

You're like Tina's little run around, only without the charm or wit.

You really regard me that highly? Cheers mate.

jimdig wrote:I think it depends on your level of training. Most people train around their full time job. Personally I think the balanced diet approach is the most sensible for most frequent gym users.

For example the body can only process a certain amount of protein, some thing like 5g/ hour (probably way off, but the theory holds, 1 grilled chicken fillet worth) it can't store it, so unless your body needs it, it's a bit of a waste to fill up on protein shakes. Now if your a serious athelete who trains during the day as opposed to after work, it would make sense to take protein shakes, as your muscles are going to need the fuel.

Studies vary but it is generally though a protein intake of more than 30g is not needed.

I agree though, protein shakes should be kept to a minimum, far better option available (tin of tuna, chicken breast, eggs etc...)

Any boxers out there adopt this process to dieting, i.e not products. I think David Haye might.

Also on the olympics run up, I read an article about training and isotonic drinks, it was saying that the best rehydrant drink on the market was slimeline milk (that 0%fat stuff girls buy for their special K), it's basically water with the right vitamins salts, protein and pretty much zero cal's.
As opposed to the other sugary soft drinks highly advertised.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

jimdig wrote:I think it depends on your level of training. Most people train around their full time job. Personally I think the balanced diet approach is the most sensible for most frequent gym users.

For example the body can only process a certain amount of protein, some thing like 5g/ hour (probably way off, but the theory holds, 1 grilled chicken fillet worth) it can't store it, so unless your body needs it, it's a bit of a waste to fill up on protein shakes. Now if your a serious athelete who trains during the day as opposed to after work, it would make sense to take protein shakes, as your muscles are going to need the fuel.

Studies vary but it is generally though a protein intake of more than 30g is not needed.

I agree though, protein shakes should be kept to a minimum, far better option available (tin of tuna, chicken breast, eggs etc...)

Any boxers out there adopt this process to dieting, i.e not products. I think David Haye might.

30g, figured I was way off with 5g, been a few years since I researched it, but decided to drop them for a sensible diet.

Supplements are garbage. Just a way to make a easy money from naive teenagers who think they can gain an Mr Olympia physique by taking them.

Most protein shakes are just full of artificial sugars and are generally not needed, as is the amount of protein your body needs.
I used to follow all this BS religiously at one point, you know, 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Wasted a small fortune on food and protein shakes/creatine. If I didnt hit the right amount of protein in a day (around 220 grams) I feared that I would wilt away.

Since I've got older I've realised that the supplement industry is just a huge money making gimmick, deluding kids by giving them false hopes. They're making serious money from it though, you can see this through the amount of brands that are on the market. Even Mark Wahlberg and Jodie Marsh are realeasing their own

I now only consume around 100 grams of protein a day and just eat healthy (loads of water, veg and fruit). I havent lost any strength and any excess weight I lost was mostly bodyfat and water retention.

I realised that the only supplements that actually work and are worth taking are the ones that are illegal.

There was a pretty extensive article in the British Medical Journal recently rubbishing sports drinks (lucozade, gatorade etc), stating that the evidence that they provide any extra benefit to rehydration is extremely poor and that the vast majority of postive data was from studies funded by the companies that make the drinks. I tried finding good scientific studies on the benefit of protein shakes but couldn't find anything to definitive. There does seem to be a growing consensus that the protein shake industry is a bit of stitch up though and that the vast majority of casual to semi-serious athletes can get enough protein through eating a decent diet, although there could be potential benefits to elite athletes training for hours a day

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Got a few friends that swear by Maximuscle Cyclone...

Swear by it in what sense. They stop using at and their performance is vastly reduced.

The thing people dont realise is that all the ingrediants in these products can be bought in Asda. Jack 3d (which a lot of gym mates take) is essentially just a load of caffiene.

lean muscle mass gain ahead of that achieved when not on it.

The issue with protein shakes is the myths behind them. People assume that taking protein will automatically give you big muscels, it doesn't.

I partially agree with Benson, but is should be noted that you can get good quality protein powders which can be used at times when having a chicken breast is not suitable, such as immediately after you finish training.

J.Benson II wrote:Supplements are garbage. Just a way to make a easy money from naive teenagers who think they can gain an Mr Olympia physique by taking them.

Most protein shakes are just full of artificial sugars and are generally not needed, as is the amount of protein your body needs.
I used to follow all this BS religiously at one point, you know, 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Wasted a small fortune on food and protein shakes/creatine. If I didnt hit the right amount of protein in a day (around 220 grams) I feared that I would wilt away.

Since I've got older I've realised that the supplement industry is just a huge money making gimmick, deluding kids by giving them false hopes. They're making serious money from it though, you can see this through the amount of brands that are on the market. Even Mark Wahlberg and Jodie Marsh are realeasing their own

I now only consume around 100 grams of protein a day and just eat healthy (loads of water, veg and fruit). I havent lost any strength and any excess weight I lost was mostly bodyfat and water retention.

I realised that the only supplements that actually work and are worth taking are the ones that are illegal.

not all supps are garbage!! some are proven and work as part of your diet...the clue is in the name, to "supplement" your diet. for example, recent studies have shown that whey protein, is as good as normal animal protein sources due to its higher amino profile (which wont mean much to some, but basically hugely aids muscle repair and growth) as do amino acids (branch chain), glutamine & L-Carnitine...to name just a few.
Haye take supps to aid recovery and enhance his performance, but he also eats completely organic during camp, the supplements help support his higher calorie diet to avoid muscle breakdown and help him train harder, for longer....
of course, all these "jacked 3d" supps are mainly just caffiene based, but do hold some benifit, just not much! they're only really garbage if you are just taking them without really having a defined goal of what you want to get out of them!
anyway, very long time lurker, first time poster, havent commented since the old BBC 606 days! and that was rare!!!

I agree with what alot of people are saying in that too much is expected of these over the counter supplement. I think they provide modest benefits for people who excercise and train regularly. The issue seems to be that some people expect to turn into bodybuilders just by drinking litres of the stuff without the neccessary training to accompany it. The products also seem to be very overpriced for what they are. But stuff like whey protein is just protein that can be quickly absorbed into the body after a workout that will aid muscle repair.

In an overall sense I do think that sports nutrition and science does provide athletes with benefits, as does the increased knowledge of the human body and how various things affect its performance. In my experience the arguments tend to occur when people overly emphasize its affect like saying Vitali must automatically be better than Ali because he was born later and benefits from modern nutrition. I dont think it works like that. Its not going to be sufficient to bridge massive natural talent gaps. I do think it provides small tangible benefits though.

manos de piedra wrote:I agree with what alot of people are saying in that too much is expected of these over the counter supplement. I think they provide modest benefits for people who excercise and train regularly. The issue seems to be that some people expect to turn into bodybuilders just by drinking litres of the stuff without the neccessary training to accompany it. The products also seem to be very overpriced for what they are. But stuff like whey protein is just protein that can be quickly absorbed into the body after a workout that will aid muscle repair.

In an overall sense I do think that sports nutrition and science does provide athletes with benefits, as does the increased knowledge of the human body and how various things affect its performance. In my experience the arguments tend to occur when people overly emphasize its affect like saying Vitali must automatically be better than Ali because he was born later and benefits from modern nutrition. I dont think it works like that. Its not going to be sufficient to bridge massive natural talent gaps. I do think it provides small tangible benefits though.

i agree in some part, but that is just ignorance to say "if I take this, it will improve my that", which isn't the supplement companies fault. they have to market a product heavily in an oversaturated market to be sucessful, even moderately..I mean, what do Linx do to upsell a product? pretty much say, spray this on you and you get laid..never will quite be the case! but, the right supplement stack pays dividends when used correctly, whether that be improve power, stamina, body fat %, lean gains etc. Some are over priced yes, but, like anything nowadays. You seen how expensive organic chicken is? a shake is much better value P4P...saying whey potein is just protein that can be quickly absorbed is a little wrong...just? quickly absorbed protein is better for recovery, hunger, muscle repair and digestion...I think thats a pretty large benifit IMHO, especially as boxers tend to do two to three sessions a day in their camps.

agree on the stuff about Vit, however, modern science plays a part only with his ridic genetics, modern training tekkers, equipment, supps and increased knowlegde will pay a part in his development. I say, imagine the greatest with all the benifits Vit or Wlad have nowadays!! would be interesting. and I think Khan, Haye, Bellew to name a few all promote the benifits of supplements on training if you look at there interviews/twitter feeds etc.

richiebrew23 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I agree with what alot of people are saying in that too much is expected of these over the counter supplement. I think they provide modest benefits for people who excercise and train regularly. The issue seems to be that some people expect to turn into bodybuilders just by drinking litres of the stuff without the neccessary training to accompany it. The products also seem to be very overpriced for what they are. But stuff like whey protein is just protein that can be quickly absorbed into the body after a workout that will aid muscle repair.

In an overall sense I do think that sports nutrition and science does provide athletes with benefits, as does the increased knowledge of the human body and how various things affect its performance. In my experience the arguments tend to occur when people overly emphasize its affect like saying Vitali must automatically be better than Ali because he was born later and benefits from modern nutrition. I dont think it works like that. Its not going to be sufficient to bridge massive natural talent gaps. I do think it provides small tangible benefits though.

i agree in some part, but that is just ignorance to say "if I take this, it will improve my that", which isn't the supplement companies fault. they have to market a product heavily in an oversaturated market to be sucessful, even moderately..I mean, what do Linx do to upsell a product? pretty much say, spray this on you and you get laid..never will quite be the case! but, the right supplement stack pays dividends when used correctly, whether that be improve power, stamina, body fat %, lean gains etc. Some are over priced yes, but, like anything nowadays. You seen how expensive organic chicken is? a shake is much better value P4P...saying whey potein is just protein that can be quickly absorbed is a little wrong...just? quickly absorbed protein is better for recovery, hunger, muscle repair and digestion...I think thats a pretty large benifit IMHO, especially as boxers tend to do two to three sessions a day in their camps. agree on the stuff about Vit, however, modern science plays a part only with his ridic genetics, modern training tekkers, equipment, supps and increased knowlegde will pay a part in his development. I say, imagine the greatest with all the benifits Vit or Wlad have nowadays!! would be interesting. and I think Khan, Haye, Bellew to name a few all promote the benifits of supplements on training if you look at there interviews/twitter feeds etc.

Yeah but the issue is how much additional benefit it confers as opposed to just eating healthy or alternative sources of high protein.

Im in the middle when it comes to these sports science/nutrition debates. Sometimes I see it all dismissed as just modern hocus pocus stuff which I dont think is true. But equally there are times when its benefits seem to be overplayed massively, especially in arguments over how current generation boxers would fare over earlier ones.

richie -

I use fish oil and omega 3 supplements. Thats all I use at the moment.
Personally, I believe the amount of protein your body requires is greatly over-played (mostly by the supplement industry themselves). For me, 100 grams a day is more than enough and its easy to achieve simply through a decent diet and no shakes.

Supplement brands also do give false advertising. Lynx might do something similar but theirs is clearly done in a comical manner.
Companies like Muscle-Tech on the other hand seriously advertise their products with psedu-scientific gibberish to give the consumer the impression that they can look a certain way by taking it. They'll even dismiss any of thier sponsered athletes who admits to using drugs (eg Christian Boeving) despite the fact that all their featured models and sponsered athletes are obvious drug abusers.

Guys like Khan might promote the benefits of supplements but thats more likely down to the fact that he's paid by various supplement companies to do so (Maximuscle in his case).

Fact is, the only "supplements" that world-class atheles take that actually make a difference are the ones which they'll never admit to taking......

J.Benson II wrote:richie -

I use fish oil and omega 3 supplements. Thats all I use at the moment.
Personally, I believe the amount of protein your body requires is greatly over-played (mostly by the supplement industry themselves). For me, 100 grams a day is more than enough and its easy to achieve simply through a decent diet and no shakes.

Supplement brands also do give false advertising. Lynx might do something similar but theirs is clearly done in a comical manner.
Companies like Muscle-Tech on the other hand seriously advertise their products with psedu-scientific gibberish to give the consumer the impression that they can look a certain way by taking it. They'll even dismiss any of thier sponsered athletes who admits to using drugs (eg Christian Boeving) despite the fact that all their featured models and sponsered athletes are obvious drug abusers.

Guys like Khan might promote the benefits of supplements but thats more likely down to the fact that he's paid by various supplement companies to do so (Maximuscle in his case).

Fact is, the only "supplements" that world-class atheles take that actually make a difference are the ones which they'll never admit to taking......

great response :o) I use omega 3 twice daily as it helps lower my bodyfat, aid joint lubrication, digestion and brain function...but, I also supp on vit d, b, digestive enzyme, c, zinc, fibre, glutamine, carnitine, BCAAs and high protein as I believe an average, even better than average diet doesn't give me all I need for my current lifestyle. I think a high protein diet is needed, but that is again dependant on your goals...if 100g of protein a day gets you where you need to be, then great! i can factually state, for my goals, 100g of protein a day is no where need my requirements...if I did have that intake I'd get severe DOMS for days!!

anyone that knows anything and is serious about there sport knows what they need to take and get from the marketspace. but, its a business and they need to make money to survive...I know muscle tech well and I know they are one of the shoddy ones, but every market has companies like this...but you do have great brands like PHD, myprotein, maximuscle, that use proper atheletes, that benifit from their products...of course, this is mainly based around recovery, muscle gain and probably most importantly convenience...I mean, how much steak would you need to consume to really benifit from the carnatine, aminos, protein and stuff? your stomach just couldn't handle it and thays why a lot of these products are developed!

in my opinion, supps work, and work well when you know what you're doing and why you're doing it

oh and the featured models aren't all drug users...Rob Riches, Greg Plitt, Luke Hasslett, even Gavin Henson are all proven natural and compete in natural comps and take pride in being nautral, but know they can drive crazy results from correct neutrition and supps! some are though, but thats not a sport, its a freak show!

Supplements are mostly worthless if you are getting a balanced diet. People over egg the body's need to ingest protein at all to gain or maintain muscle mass. Been doing intermittent fasting a la the recent Horizon show on BBC and have lost absolutely no performance whatsoever as my body seemed to adjust to burning fat for energy fairly quick. There are very dominant myths in the field of sports nutrition that have little basis in fact. Check out leangains.com for a summary of the science, albeit from a bodybuilders/weight training perspective. As it says on there if something don't make sense in evolutionary terms it's probably a big steaming pile of horse Poopie and the logic behind many of these supplement and diet fads is exactly that.

I'm not convinced Protein Supplements reduce the severity of DOMS? I havn't read any research papers that support that it does? Everything seems anecdotal and influenced by the industry.

I read part of a paper with the title "Acute milk-based protein–CHO supplementation attenuates exercise-induced muscle damage". They analysed the severity of DOMS through questioning at the 24hr and 48hr point after exercise-induced muscle damage. DOMS was not significantly different (p > 0.05) between the groups taking supplements and the control group (just drinking water).

If anyone can point me to a genuine research article to support the widely held notion that protein reduces DOMS then I would appreciate a link. If that paper was a meta-analysis then that would be even better.

Personal experience - about 34 grams of protein shake a day ain addition to a heavy breakfast and two small meals llowed me to train comfortably 5 times a week rather than three and significant gains as well as a bit of fat. Without the supplements I couldnt recover in time and had to do it every other day or skip a day. Also using "monster mass" there was a large quantity of fat in it - not the best one to use really but it tastes bloody nice.

PHD Pharma Whey was the best I used and saw dramatic gains because of the increased workload 2 hour sessions 5 times a week without being too sore - the smaller muscles - biceps, calves and chest gained alot more and two months was about 6 kg increase in weight but narrower round the hips.

One I would not advise is BSN TRUE MASS/Cell Mass - they work fantastically while you are on them but seem to lose it dramatically when you are off and are bloody expensive. No xplode is pretty good I find if you use it with PHD Pharma but only if you've got money spare.

I think they help enormously If your goals are realistic otherwise even dramatic gains might be a dissapointment as the body can only put on so much muscle at a time.

ShahenshahG wrote:Personal experience - about 34 grams of protein shake a day ain addition to a heavy breakfast and two small meals llowed me to train comfortably 5 times a week rather than three and significant gains as well as a bit of fat. Without the supplements I couldnt recover in time and had to do it every other day or skip a day. Also using "monster mass" there was a large quantity of fat in it - not the best one to use really but it tastes bloody nice.

PHD Pharma Whey was the best I used and saw dramatic gains because of the increased workload 2 hour sessions 5 times a week without being too sore - the smaller muscles - biceps, calves and chest gained alot more and two months was about 6 kg increase in weight but narrower round the hips.

One I would not advise is BSN TRUE MASS/Cell Mass - they work fantastically while you are on them but seem to lose it dramatically when you are off and are bloody expensive. No xplode is pretty good I find if you use it with PHD Pharma but only if you've got money spare.

I think they help enormously If your goals are realistic otherwise even dramatic gains might be a dissapointment as the body can only put on so much muscle at a time.

If your age is accurate that is a nonsense, no offence

Which part? and none taken, I was accused of juicing last time

The bit in bold about not being able to recover in time without supplements.

Richie -

Thanks for the response.

Just out of curiousity, have you actually tried lowering your protein intake and ditching the supplements, just to see what difference it makes, or are just fearful that ditching them would result in reduced size/poor recovery etc. ?

The thing is, for a pretty big guy like myself (6'3ft and arond 105kg), 100 grams of protein seems pittance, but I've found that my strength and size is mantained with such amounts. The idea that the body requires so much protein to build muscle/strength is promoted by mainly the supplment industry who just want you to buy their products, not to mention that they often suggest multiple servings a day.

Another problem with protein shakes is that in order for them to have a decent taste, they are loaded to the max with artificial sweeteners like sucralose. If anything, taking such sugars is counter-productive to fitness and health.
The only shakes worth taking are the natural flavours that don't contain such things. Just blend in a banana or berries if you won't some flavour.

You mentioned the athletes that use these supplements, yes they may do so but the reason they are advertising these products is because they're paid to do so, and therefore will overplay its importence during interviews/adverts. In reality, I doubt it makes much difference to their routine and some may not even use the stuff at all.

The final point I'll make is regarding the many so called "natural wonders" of the fitness industry. I've actually known a few lower tier natural bodybuilders and a few of them where anything but natural. Guys like Plitt certainly has a physique that seems achieveable naturally, but it also wouldnt surprise me if he occassionally cycles various hormones such a GH, clen, anavar, Tren etc in low dosages in order to mantain a consistantly lean (under 6% bodyfat) physique. Of course, I'm not saying this with any certaintly but I've always felt that any man who makes his income through his appearence is likely to be using some kind of artificial substances/diuretics.

What I've found over the years is that the athletic/fitness industry is generally full of lies, scammers and BS'ers. Nothing should be taken on face value.

J.Benson - I have indeed tried this and my approach is that of a mixture of science/theory and trial and error and I can safely say, a high protein, carb cycle based diet has worked for me to maintain low body fat (all year round between 6&10%) and increase my lean gains. However, this isn't what was really in question. I'm not a boxer (was as a youngster but not any longer) and the point I was trying to make was I believe the right supplements timed well pay absolute dividends when getting ready for a comp (of any description) I'm like you, 6ft 3 and around 95kg...and I’ve been finding out what works best for me, for the last 10 years....and I personally have 150g of protein before midday!

TheMackemMawler - I would post a supplement/recovery study on here but as a newbie, I have to wait a week. if you get the time, Google Charles Poliquin, whey protein & recovery and see what you get. He is the main man when it comes to strength and conditioning (various Olympic medal/trains professional athletes) as is Layne Norton (PHD) and I follow those guys protocol more than anyone’s as they as experts in their field and have based all their success on a mixture of theory and practise of said theory. Dr Norton is a 100% natural BB and knows full well the benefits of a high protein diet to aid recovery, gain strength and increase lean gains in muscle.

My protein is usually unflavoured as you're right, some artificial sweeteners are bad news, but, for an athlete using them for recovery purposes and upping calories during camps, I don't think it would make much difference. Mr Haye takes supplements, doesn't have a specific sponsor but I know for a fact uses them as I have been to his open workouts and have seen various supplements to aid him through hard sessions and the main reason a lot of athels get sponsored, is to get these things for free, rather than earn money off them, Khan’s supp sponsorship will barely touch the sides of his yearly earnings, a few grand is just an added bonus.

I actually know a few natural BB myself who compete in the WBFF and I know GH, clen & anavar a big no no's for these guys as its about the lifestyle and achievement of doing these things naturally. if you want to be sceptical, so be it...perhaps, you have been scammed in the past and burnt or are not as genetically gifted to respond to the training. I believe in the supps, as I used them and had great success. and I’m not talking the BS "NO Explode" type, they are gimmicks, I’ll agree with that! I’ve shared my supplement list before, and they are all non label brands in the majority and are brought in their raw form (with exception of protein).

Ah fair enough - but I do struggle without them - the recovery is amazing with these, without them i'd have severe aching in the muscles which would last till the next day and i'd still be sore the next morning. With them I am still slightly sore but nothing that wont go away during the course of the day.

As for richie - what is your experience with NO Explode? Mind, i'm not a bodybuilder - I needed strength training after injuring my knee and kept on as a force of habit because of the energy it gave me during the day and it seems to have incorporated itself into my social life. I enjoy it but I wont be entering any competitions soon

My experience is that its pretty good for giving energy pre workout for me (tapering off though) and my mate (for whom the results are dramatic) I think for him its because he lives a very clean life, no alcohol, no smoking and no coffee/energy drinks apart from Meta rex (sp?!) sachets.

I relise it might be different for professionals

Richie -

I wouldnt say that I've been scammed but I do feel a bit burnt when I consider how much money I spent on products which I now believe made little difference to my goals. My bodybuilding genetics are admittedly not great, but I do possess good strength genetics (my deadlift PB is almost 280kg) and I tend to pack on muscle (and fat ) quite quickly.

My opinion on supps is similar to what Stone Motif & Mackem have said. I just don't feel that there is enough independent scientific evidence to suggest that supps provide any real benefit.
I would generally advise someone against taking them but wouldn't discourage anyone taking them if they are seeing gains.

My major problem with the industry in general is just that I feel it tends to prey on naive teenagers who are led to believe that they can get arms like Phil Heath by taking Cell-Tech, or get as vascular as Frank McGrath by taking Animal Cuts. At least the British brands use more realistic models in their advertisements.

I understand that there are plenty of natty bodybuilders who truly are what they say. However, there are many that aren't. I'm referring more to the ones who earn serious money from their physiques. These types are constantly getting called for photo shoots 365 days a year and it wouldn't surprise me if they use "outside assistance" in order to stay in a certain condition.

I had a little look into the names you suggested Ritchie. I'm more trusting of Norton than Poliquin. Poliquin appears to have taken an extended sabbatical from academic research (around a decade). I can imagine him endorsing products for cash. It seems alot of academics' thirst for knowledge wanes on securing their post nominals. Their scientific curiosity is superceded by greed to such an extent that they will say whatever their pay masters' instruct.

Norton seems bonafide, even though he hasn't published any papers in a little while.

However, when you have posted a little more and are allowed to put up links then my original request still stands.... can anyone provide a genuine research article to support the widely held notion that protein reduces DOMS. If that paper was a meta-analysis then that would be even better.

People should just eat right, you hear of bodybuilders eating 12 chickens and 40 eggs a day..... then they take protein supplements? I'm sure if protein supp's were that good then they wouldn't need to go mad with the eggs and stuff?

Surely if you are eating this much chicken and eggs then it is impossible to determine if it is the chicken or the Supp's providing the benefit? Crazy.

People should just eat more protein. I'm all for the hunter gatherer diet. None of this fancy maximuscle BS. Don't be lazy, Cook.

There seems to be two main motivators here for protein supplements (and I at certain times have believed both of them until I learnt better). One is that you need to be shovelling down protein in vast quantities at every meal or within hours you will start to muscle and strength loss. Absolutely false, I believe it takes something like 60 hours with no food for your body to deplete its glycogen and start to catabolise. The second is that recovery requires a supplement which I also believe is false. A balanced diet will give you plenty enough protein to recover, especially if you're eating stuff high in caseine which takes ages to get digested fully. These things are like a crutch. Your body will eventually get used to your training and recover quicker, that's pretty much the point of exercise, to build you back stronger. Throw the crutch away and be patient would be my advice, train hard, fight easy and all that.

Morning gents – some very interesting points made, and I can see I’m clearly the only one on this thread that is all for correct supplementation ;o) however, I think that is where we may be getting our wires crossed a little, especially the mention of whey or protein supplements I used as an example that’s all it was, an example. However, if I were to choose one supplement I wouldn’t want to cut, it would be BCAAs as I believe from my research, trail and error that BCAA and the correct amount of amino acids, essential and non essential are needed more as a supplement for my goals than a protein type supplement. Protein is just by far the most popular in the space we are discussing. My personal preference on this is whey first thing in the morning, then beef protein post training (with other stuff thrown in of course)...but that’s just me!! I think the importance here is not going over the top about one piece of the puzzle or the other as I think you need the correct balance of training, supplements, diet and lifestyle to achieve the goals you have set yourself.

ShahenshahG – not too much experience with NO Explode, its a supplement that aids an artificial pump , but has been known to have some pretty mean side effects if taken incorrectly. I personally think you can’t go wrong with 100-200mg of caffeine, creatine monohydrate and a BCAA drink pre and during training...its a lot of money for not enough gain IMHO...

J.Benson II – some very good points, and if you don’t feel there is enough scientific evidence then so be it, I guess that’s where we differ. However, the supplements I use I feel have enough scientific backing I needed to make my purchases. But saying this, NONE of them are the big brands you seem to be upset with here...and I guess that’s where we can agree, I do believe they are taking people for a ride to an extent. Cell-Tech is an interesting one as there is no doubt the creatine product works...however, the science behind it is simple, an monohydrate with vast amount of simple sugars. That IS proven to help increase muscle volume and recovery. However, the price tag they put on is insane as you can make the product yourself for a fraction of the price (which I do cycle every now and again). But, every industry is the same, you have your good and bad products that will promise the earth and deliver not much, its making that educated choice on what supplement would help you reach where you want to be.

TheMackemMawler – thanks for taking a look. In all honesty, I look towards Charles P for more workout based stuff as he is a big believer in full body composition and I use his GVT and GBC training techniques to help put on size in my “off season” and then look towards a more straight set hypertrophy approach thereafter. Layne knows his stuff no doubt, and his built incredibly well for a natural...he has the right ideas for sure, but I’m not going to sit here and tell you I read all the sciencey stuff front to back, because I don’t. However, some good points made, and as for the reduction of DOMS, I’ll see what I can find and let you know. “meta-analysis”...? whatevs ;o) feel like I’m peeing into the wind with this subject, but again, with 12 chickens and 40 eggs a day, bodybuilders probably wouldn’t supplement on protein, perhaps they might do on creatine, ZMA, vit d, fish oil and carnatine as they might need a little more nutrients than what they are getting form the chicken and eggs...boxers on the other hand, may feel that they need, caffeine, protein and carbs as a supplement to get them through some tough workout they partake in more than once or twice a day. Its convenient and helps keep their calorific intake up if their diet requires.

Stone motif – think you’re spot on there boss with the glycogen depletion. I would go zero carbs over 4 days with high protein to get my glycogen levels right down...then eat carbs like a mad man to re-feed my liver and muscles pre comp for vascularity the following day...

Enjoyed the debate on this one gents...and hopefully, I can add some more boxing related posts as that’s what we’re here for right? ;o) plus, I better actually go do some work :oS

Some great stuff here, gents.

I have a tub of whey protein at home, but I only tend to use it on occasion i.e. if I remember after a workout. For me it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. I ache no less by taking it, and I don't seem to lose any size either.

I try to incorporate plenty of protein in to my diet, and that's about it really. People do overthink these things a lot, in my view. Just train a couple to three times per week, try and eat the right things and you'll be fine. Not much more to it.

Or am I being too simplistic?

Must be honest, some of you guys on here have a fat greater knowledge than I do....

What I have found is by sorting out my diet (which includes protein shakes and BCAA's) I have become injured less and have been able to train for longer at a harder pace.

I rely on a friend who really knows his stuff to let me know what I should take and when and it has worked wonders.

Out of interest, other than Benson does anyone else consume such a low amount of protein and see no difference in results and/or recovery?

I just make sure I eat my main meal of the day after I've trained which will usually have lean meat and or cottage cheese and a glass of milk. I ache a bit sometimes but nothing that stops me training. Train 5 days a week without fail including 2x hard Thai Boxing sessions and lately after discovering intermittent fasting I've been eating hardly anything at all on my rest days. Just one 600 cal meal in the evening. So you could say for two days at least my protein intake is fairly reduced. Guess what, no aches beyond normal, no loss of strength or size or recovery etc...

Fists – depends on your goals really, that’s what makes this so subjective! To keep up my gains I could never go low protein or fast as Stone is saying, but again, depends on lots of factors, genetics, metabolism, objectives etc...I’m looking to compete in the next year and the only depletion I do is via a carb cycle.

I took a variety of illegal supplements in my university days and was a waif like 10 stone. Since I stopped taking them I've mysteriously put on about 2 stone in weight. Anyone else had that problem?

I always find I throw darts better after 4 or 5 pints. My greatest moment was when I finished 120 with a shanghai and I reckon I'd had at least 7 by that stage.

I always find I throw darts better after 4 or 5 pints. My greatest moment was when I finished 120 with a shanghai and I reckon I'd had at least 7 by that stage..

Conversely, 8 or 9 pints tends to impact my snooker prowess. Once played a frame that lasted the best part of 2 hours. Not a single saftey shot was played.

superflyweight wrote:

I always find I throw darts better after 4 or 5 pints. My greatest moment was when I finished 120 with a shanghai and I reckon I'd had at least 7 by that stage..

Conversely, 8 or 9 pints tends to impact my snooker prowess. Once played a frame that lasted the best part of 2 hours. Not a single saftey shot was played.

Agreed. There is a lager threshold when it comes to pure sports like snooker darts and crown green bowls. I reckon 3 -8 pints is the optimum range.

seanmichaels wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

I always find I throw darts better after 4 or 5 pints. My greatest moment was when I finished 120 with a shanghai and I reckon I'd had at least 7 by that stage..

Conversely, 8 or 9 pints tends to impact my snooker prowess. Once played a frame that lasted the best part of 2 hours. Not a single saftey shot was played.

Agreed. There is a lager threshold when it comes to pure sports like snooker darts and crown green bowls. I reckon 3 -8 pints is the optimum range.

Snooker, darts and crown green bowls don't constitute sports so that's your theory gone, seany. Anything you can do in same shoes as you went to work in, with no noticeable decline in performance doesn't constitute a sport.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

seanmichaels wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

I always find I throw darts better after 4 or 5 pints. My greatest moment was when I finished 120 with a shanghai and I reckon I'd had at least 7 by that stage..

Conversely, 8 or 9 pints tends to impact my snooker prowess. Once played a frame that lasted the best part of 2 hours. Not a single saftey shot was played.

Agreed. There is a lager threshold when it comes to pure sports like snooker darts and crown green bowls. I reckon 3 -8 pints is the optimum range.

Snooker, darts and crown green bowls don't constitute sports so that's your theory gone, seany. Anything you can do in same shoes as you went to work in, with no noticeable decline in performance doesn't constitute a sport.

That includes golf too then Tina?

Never played it TH, but don't they have little spikey things on the souls to help them grip?

If so, then no.