England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

[eirebilly]

First topic message reminder :

Yeah, the fielding certainly has left alot to be desired. Still the chances are being created and things must surely stick soon.

[ShankyCricket]

With Broad the concern has to be his bowling speeds not wicket taking.

When I've seen him bowl in the past, he's up around 88-91mph. In this series he's barely around 80mph.

Where has his pace gone?

Think he is bowling a bit within himslef after all the injuries that he has suffered over the last year and a half.

[Shelsey93]

With Broad the concern has to be his bowling speeds not wicket taking.

When I've seen him bowl in the past, he's up around 88-91mph. In this series he's barely around 80mph.

Where has his pace gone?

The paces seem to have been curiously down all season for all the England seamers. As I've said before this is a problem for both Broad (who relies on zip to make his full length deadly rather than floaty) and Bresnan (who relies on bowling a heavy ball).

Steyn and Morkel also haven't hit 90 all that often, though Philander (at 84-ish) has been around where he should be. Strange.

[Fists of Fury]

Guys, you bowling one good spell in a series does not guarantee automatic selection.

His pace is down, which would be fine if he was moving the ball but he simply isn't, and he just looks very, very mediocre at the moment. He suddenly upped his pace for that burst at Headingley, so why isn't he doing that consistently? It has become a worry, and coupled with his dreadful batting displays really does make me wonder whether Onions wouldn't be a more successful option.

Dropping Broad now would perhaps be premature, but you have to admit he is no longer one of the first names on the team sheet.

I say Taylor or Bairstow out as a) this England side needs KP and b) blooding two youngsters at the same time might prove to be a bit of a struggle in terms of consistent totals. They're talented though, no doubt, and at least one of them should play.

Strauss, on the other hand, simply has to go.

[Gerry SA]

With Broad the concern has to be his bowling speeds not wicket taking.

When I've seen him bowl in the past, he's up around 88-91mph. In this series he's barely around 80mph.

Where has his pace gone?

Think he is bowling a bit within himslef after all the injuries that he has suffered over the last year and a half.

Yeah I can agree with bowling within himself, but 10mph down would indicate there might be an injury somewhere as well.

[ShankyCricket]

Guys, you bowling one good spell in a series does not guarantee automatic selection.

His pace is down, which would be fine if he was moving the ball but he simply isn't, and he just looks very, very mediocre at the moment. He suddenly upped his pace for that burst at Headingley, so why isn't he doing that consistently? It has become a worry, and coupled with his dreadful batting displays really does make me wonder whether Onions wouldn't be a more successful option.

Dropping Broad now would perhaps be premature, but you have to admit he is no longer one of the first names on the team sheet.

I say Taylor or Bairstow out as a) this England side needs KP and b) blooding two youngsters at the same time might prove to be a bit of a struggle in terms of consistent totals. They're talented though, no doubt, and at least one of them should play.

Strauss, on the other hand, simply has to go.

Say, KP comes in for Strauss. Who comes in the side for one of the youngsters?

[Biltong]

Seems Harris is completely out of favor these days, Robin Petersen seems to be the backup spinner. I have in fact seen him turning a few in some of the ODI matches he played, and he is more than capable with the bat. May be SA should give him a go if Tahir can't cut?

I like Robin Peterson but I consider him more an ODI/T20 player. Good batsman, amazing fielder and decent spinner.

I am sorry, but I don't like Peterson, he reminds me of someone who can do everything competently, but not an international class player.

I do agree SA need to work JP Duminy into a true allrounder.

If you consider the days when we had Kallis as a batting allrounder, Pollock as a bowling allrounder and Klusener as a bit of both, it worked wonders for us.

Is see Duminy can be a Kallis (not in the same class obviously), Philander as a Pollock and then if we get Morkel and Steyn to keep working on their batting we can bat to 10, remember Kallis is on borrowed time, he might be around for anther few years, but not any more.

[eirebilly]

I honestly feel that both Broad and Jimmy have slight niggles which is why they are so down on pace.

In regards to dropping Broad, i find that all rather confusing since he is the highest test wicket taker in 2012 so has not done too bad

[Fists of Fury]

If Broad is bowling within himself then it is a disgrace and he should never have been picked. We were trying to win a series and retain our #1 ranking - so it cannot be that he is playing within himself, surely the selectors and Strauss wouldn't have allowed that against such high quality opponents.

Something is missing, and he may well need dropping until he discovers what it is.

[Mad for Chelsea]

De Villiers struggling a bit behind the timbers in that over...

Come on you Byes!

[Duty281]

7 off that over, England cruising to the finish.

[eirebilly]

If Broad is bowling within himself then it is a disgrace and he should never have been picked. We were trying to win a series and retain our #1 ranking - so it cannot be that he is playing within himself, surely the selectors and Strauss wouldn't have allowed that against such high quality opponents.

Something is missing, and he may well need dropping until he discovers what it is.

Does this also go for Jimmy and Swann who have also not seemed to bowl their best this series (Jimmy in particular down on pace as well)? What would Englands bowling attack look like then?

[Biltong]

I am in the office today and not watching the game, so please score updates every now and then.

thanks.

[Gerry SA]

Seems Harris is completely out of favor these days, Robin Petersen seems to be the backup spinner. I have in fact seen him turning a few in some of the ODI matches he played, and he is more than capable with the bat. May be SA should give him a go if Tahir can't cut?

I like Robin Peterson but I consider him more an ODI/T20 player. Good batsman, amazing fielder and decent spinner.

I am sorry, but I don't like Peterson, he reminds me of someone who can do everything competently, but not an international class player.

I do agree SA need to work JP Duminy into a true allrounder.

If you consider the days when we had Kallis as a batting allrounder, Pollock as a bowling allrounder and Klusener as a bit of both, it worked wonders for us.

Is see Duminy can be a Kallis (not in the same class obviously), Philander as a Pollock and then if we get Morkel and Steyn to keep working on their batting we can bat to 10, remember Kallis is on borrowed time, he might be around for anther few years, but not any more.

A bit unfair on Robbie, but it's your opinion!

I think we could do with developing Ryan McLaren into a Lance Klusener. He's a good seamer and more than capable with the bat.

With regards to JP, he needs to bowl more but with the Seamers being so dominate he rarely gets ago!

[Mad for Chelsea]

Trott trying to play a few shots at the moment, with limited success. Does get that one over the slips for four though

[Fists of Fury]

Jimmy isn't down on pace, though. He is bowling between 83 and 85mph which is where he always bowls... His returns haven't been helped by a) not a great deal of swing throughout the series b) team mates can't catch and c) plenty of bad luck i.e. just missing the edge several times.

Swann has done a decent containing job in a series where neither spinner has really had an impact.

[Duty281]

Let's think of it as a One Day game:

England require 318 runs from 519 balls with 8 wickets remaining. Doddle.

[eirebilly]

I am in the office today and not watching the game, so please score updates every now and then.

thanks.

Trott just got a 4 off Philander so its now 28-2

[Fists of Fury]

Trott has looked worryingly out of form, too. His foot movement is all at sea at the moment, looks such a battle for him!

[Mad for Chelsea]

I am in the office today and not watching the game, so please score updates every now and then.

thanks.

Trott just got a 4 off Philander so its now 28-2

meant to ask you billy, how're you doing by the way?

[mystiroakey]

Duty Its nice to have another optimist amongst us!!!!

I was on the way to the office and the radio commentary was sooo pesimistic.. Time to get sky go on!!

COME ON ENGLAND..

[Mad for Chelsea]

Bell misses out on a very full half-volley there, should have put it away...

[eirebilly]

Jimmy isn't down on pace, though. He is bowling between 83 and 85mph which is where he always bowls... His returns haven't been helped by a) not a great deal of swing throughout the series b) team mates can't catch and c) plenty of bad luck i.e. just missing the edge several times.
Swann has done a decent containing job in a series where neither spinner has really had an impact.

In short bursts he has had pace but he has been noticably down on pace.

In responce:

A/ Broad also likes to have a swinging pitch
B/ Broad has also had drops off his bowling
C/ Broad has also experienced the same misfortune.

If you dont like Broad and want him dropped then fine but realise that other bowlers have also struggled against this very good SA batting line up this series.

[alfie]

Ah well on to the last day and the South African coronation as Number One Team...at least for the next few months

I'd love to believe England capable of bringing off a miracle victory , but even without losing two wickets overnight they realistically had no chance of making 350 at considably more than three per over. That last fifty runs the SA tail was able to muster , albeit slowly , was the final straw.

Not that I am depressed by this. There is no disgrace in being beaten by a better team , which South Africa have been during this series. I do not think there is a great gulf between the teams - the first Test was a bit of a freak - but SA have played the more consistent cricket , with a complete absence of those disastrous match-losing sessions to which they used to be prone.

England have competed pretty well , apart from the Oval horror , but have perhaps not been quite at their best , for whatever reason. Perhaps they simply haven't been allowed by their opponents...But they haven't become a bad team overnight , and I am confident they will bounce back from this setback to remain clearly among the best Test Teams around. Just will have to wait a while for a rematch with SA.

Has been a fine Test Match , and I am happy to settle down to watch Trott etc do their best to render all the above totally redundant

Hope for a few hours of entertainment in any case...

[eirebilly]

I am in the office today and not watching the game, so please score updates every now and then.

thanks.

Trott just got a 4 off Philander so its now 28-2

meant to ask you billy, how're you doing by the way?

Grand so mate, back to being independant and can drive again which is great. Thanks for asking

[Fists of Fury]

Jimmy isn't down on pace, though. He is bowling between 83 and 85mph which is where he always bowls... His returns haven't been helped by a) not a great deal of swing throughout the series b) team mates can't catch and c) plenty of bad luck i.e. just missing the edge several times.
Swann has done a decent containing job in a series where neither spinner has really had an impact.

In short bursts he has had pace but he has been noticably down on pace.

In responce:

A/ Broad also likes to have a swinging pitch
B/ Broad has also had drops off his bowling
C/ Broad has also experienced the same misfortune.

If you dont like Broad and want him dropped then fine but realise that other bowlers have also struggled against this very good SA batting line up this series.

Oh I like Broad, he is a fantastic cricketer, but something is badly wrong and it needs sorting out before it gets any worse.

[Gerry SA]

The Pro finally getting his rewards in this series!

[Duty281]

Bell's gone, 34/3. Trott's going to have to make a massive century, no doubt he will.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Bell gone, tries to force the pace but it's an unconvincing shot and Smith grabs it on the second attempt. Once again, little things not going England's way

Come on Jimmy!

[Biltong]

Well from a personal perspective I have really enjoyed this test series. Apart from the first test it has been very even, SA surprised me in the first test, I really though we will be rusty, to my surpise and obvious delight we played really well in that test.

Amla for me has become a vital cog in the SA team and has since his tremendous run in India been up there as our most prlific runs scorer (it feels that way )

Steyn seems to be getting back to his best and lookingat his figures so far this series he has improved a lot comparing his previous successes in england.

I am happy for Mrokel as he is a nice young man, and he had some great spells this series.

AB has been a bit down on his usual fluency, perhaps the wicket keeping has taken something away from his usual free play.

Of the english team, I don't like Broad, as I said before he reminds me a lot of Dominic Cork.

Swan has had a wierd series, being dropped wasa surprise, and in this test he bowled well for little reward. Finn I think is my favourite english bowler.

[Fists of Fury]

Bell gone then. 4 from 37 balls...great ambition from England to try and win when a draw does nothing for them anyway

[Fists of Fury]

For Biltong's purposes - Bell 4 c Smith b Philander.

[eirebilly]

Wow, Trott must really anchor the innings now and James Taylor has a huge job ahead of him...

[mystiroakey]

"Well from a personal perspective I have really enjoyed this test series"

I am sure you have bilty. It has been high quality and allthough very even last 9 days.. You have marginally edged it-Basically by having the lead meant you could contain anyway!!

But it isnt over till the fat munter sings

[Mad for Chelsea]

it was a poor innings from Bell, looked out of sorts. That one was a pretty ordinary delivery which normally he'd have put away with few problems but he went after it unconvincingly and nicked it straight to slip.

[mystiroakey]

Come on Weee smurfy taylor!!

[Gerry SA]

Well from a personal perspective I have really enjoyed this test series. Apart from the first test it has been very even, SA surprised me in the first test, I really though we will be rusty, to my surpise and obvious delight we played really well in that test.

Amla for me has become a vital cog in the SA team and has since his tremendous run in India been up there as our most prlific runs scorer (it feels that way )

Steyn seems to be getting back to his best and lookingat his figures so far this series he has improved a lot comparing his previous successes in england.

I am happy for Mrokel as he is a nice young man, and he had some great spells this series.

AB has been a bit down on his usual fluency, perhaps the wicket keeping has taken something away from his usual free play.

Of the english team, I don't like Broad, as I said before he reminds me a lot of Dominic Cork.

Swan has had a wierd series, being dropped wasa surprise, and in this test he bowled well for little reward. Finn I think is my favourite english bowler.

Whilst there have been a few great efforts by South African players, my favourite moment has to be Hashim's 311, and the victory that lead from it.

No South African had ever scored a Test triple hundred and we had never win at the Oval before this tour.

I'll probably remember it forever!

[eirebilly]

I still have a feeling that this test is not over. If these two make it to lunch then i still feel that its very much game on.

[alfie]

Re the above on pace : I think all the bowlers appear to be a little down on what one might call their optimum pace , and I rather suspect this is mainly down to the speed guns they are using...it does seem these contraptions vary a bit.
Most however are only slightly down on other recent series , but Broad really does seem to have lost a significant amount. I have no idea why , but I imagine the matter has not gone un-noticed by the England coaching staff , and steps will be taken to address it once this series is over. It may just be tiredness , and a bit of a rest called for , or it may be a niggle (likewise) as I haven't noticed any dramatic change in his action.
Even so , he has hardly been awful in this series (all the England bowlers' figures are looking grim due to that first Test !) , and calls for him to be dumped are a classic example of knee jerk selection a la 1990 s...
As are the " out with Strauss" cries.

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it...

[Biltong]

For Biltong's purposes - Bell 4 c Smith b Philander.

Thanks fists.

[Duty281]

I still have a feeling that this test is not over. If these two make it to lunch then i still feel that its very much game on.

That's the spirit.

[Mike Selig]

Phew, just joined this conversation and so much going on.

SA spin options: I was a fan of Tahir when he first was picked, I really thought a spinner capable of attacking was exactly what SA needed. I am beginning to come to the conclusion that I was wrong.

I'm not worried so much about the 4 balls. Apart from a certain Shane Warne, every classic leg-spinner (I differentiate classic leg-spinners from the likes of Afridi and Kumble, who bowl with a lot more overspin and far quicker through the air - and before them O'Reilly, O'Keefe, etc.). What I am worried about is his inability to get good players out through good bowling (the vast majority of his wickets are tail-enders, I think it was Shelsey who pointed this out, but beyond that almost all his top order wickets have been thanks to the likes of Dilshan or Strauss playing poor shots).

His googly is pickable. That again is not the main issue: Warne's googly was easy to read, in fact only really Mustaq Ahmed has had a tough googly to pick of classical leg-spinners (and whether Mustaq himself was classical is debateable), although MacGill's caused tail-enders plenty of problems also. The main issue is IMO his leg-break: it is not very good, and is not going to get many good players out. He doesn't turn it much, but he doesn't have the kick off the wicket, or the flight and loop to make up for this. I suspect Swann's off-break turns more, and Swann of course has the control and subtle variations which Tahir lacks.

I think people underrate his fielding - he's not a bad fielder, I've seen him take some great catches (e.g. off Watson in the 1st innings of the 2nd test) and make some terrific stops. His batting though is hopelessly old-fashioned which is unprofessional in today's game, particularly in a side like South Africa.

Paul Harris did a job for a while, but England really got after him in South Africa, and I think more sides would be looking to do that should he get back in the side. His role was to contain and give the fast bowlers a breather (I don't believe he ever really built up pressure, because you never felt he was going to get you out), and once England showed you could get after him that really was that.

Peterson seems like a decent cricketer, but I'm not sure he's going to get good players out either.

On England's selection issues.

Broad is a worry, or rather his pace is a worry, for the reasons Shelsey says. 80 mph in itself isn't a problem (see Philander, McGrath, Asif, etc.), but it is a problem if you become floaty (see Bicknell and last year Woakes) when you pitch it up, as Broad is now. I'm not sure what the problem is, although I am as certain as I can be of anything that it isn't lack of effort, but there is a problem and England need to address it. He will certainly be on the touring squad, so presumably it will become obvious during the net sessions and warm-ups whether he has found his nip or not. If he hasn't then perhaps he should be dropped, although a tail of Anderson, Finn and Onions isn't the greatest thing ever.

Yesterday's innings does suggest that Strauss's eyes have begun to go, and from then on there's no real turning back. England have now been disappointing in the last 4 test series (they should have beaten the West Indies more comfortably) so perhaps it is time for a change, although a test series in India is a baptism of fire indeed.

I'm not so sure what Pietersen did was forgiveable (no one does) and I don't think we should be trying to forgive it harder because KP is such a good batsman. Judging whether he should come back into the side he should merely be judged as a "certain starter if we were only concerned about cricketing ability" rather than "we should do everything to get KP back into the side because he's so good". Also, I think the onus is very much on KP to clear the air with the team. If he does that (and this should happen completely in private) then perhaps he does deserve another chance.

On the cricket:

Bell gone to a rather poor shot, Smith lucky with the rebound (what would Anderson have given for that one eh?) but SA excellent as usual.

Taylor is so small and polite ("thank you" to the umpire once he'd been given his guard) it's almost like a schoolboy has wandered onto the pitch. Good player though, looks very compact.

[Biltong]

Gerry I agree with you, but for me Amla's run in India was very special, that is where he became a great player, he always had talent, but that was his watershed.

[eirebilly]

I still have a feeling that this test is not over. If these two make it to lunch then i still feel that its very much game on.

That's the spirit.

I honestly believe this. Trott can be a wall and Taylor and Bairstow are not too bad either. I think that Roakey described it best, if Engalnd can score at 3 and over for 60-70 overs (keeping wickets in hand) then its defo game on...

Jaysus i hope i havent cursed them

[alfie]

I've been carefully avoiding commenting directly on this innings , but I was disappointed with Bell.

I don't want him dropped though

[Biltong]

GERRY.

I posted this a while back. It is an article about Hashim Amla, enjoy.

https://www.606v2.com/t18269-hashim-amla?highlight=hashim+amla

[Gerry SA]

Gerry I agree with you, but for me Amla's run in India was very special, that is where he became a great player, he always had talent, but that was his watershed.

That series in India was something out of this world. Averaged something like 490 with 3 x 100. The way he played Singh in that series has made him into an unbelievable player now. Previously he had a weakness against spin. No longer.

[Mad for Chelsea]

England going nowhere at the moment though, SA have settled into their outside off line and are saying to England "you want to score, you'll have to take the risks"

[alfie]

Mike I do agree with you about Tahir.

But do you really think the Strauss failure is down to his eyes going ? Wasn't much wrong with them a couple of months ago...I reckon it is more likely the pressure of captaincy against a very strong opponent which has amplified a natural tendency to lapses of concentration...some off field stuff may not have helped either.

Could be wrong of course , but I'd be holding judgement for a little while yet , watching what happens in India at least.

[Mad for Chelsea]

and another maiden, someone told England a draw isn't much good?

[Gerry SA]

Mike I do agree with you about Tahir.

But do you really think the Strauss failure is down to his eyes going ? Wasn't much wrong with them a couple of months ago...I reckon it is more likely the pressure of captaincy against a very strong opponent which has amplified a natural tendency to lapses of concentration...some off field stuff may not have helped either.

Could be wrong of course , but I'd be holding judgement for a little while yet , watching what happens in India at least.

I think the pressure applied by South Africa has effected Strauss.

In other series against Australia or India, they bowl the boundary balls, so there's no real pressure being maintained.

South Africa are very well drilled.

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