England v South Africa, Lords, 3rd Test Thread

[eirebilly]

First topic message reminder :

Yeah, the fielding certainly has left alot to be desired. Still the chances are being created and things must surely stick soon.

[guildfordbat]

Another advantage that South Africa has is that they can push the field back if England get a chance to go for it. Without ODI like field restrictions it would be very dificult to keep the runrate up all the time. Also there are no ODI type stipulations on wides or bouncers either.

That's a very valid point. Following on from that, if we start chasing near wide balls we're going to increase the chances of getting out.

All very difficult although not impossible.

Like others, I believe we need to start off tomorrow with a normal and sensible approach. Two wickets down already is a major blow and we can't afford to lose more than one during the morning session. Ideally, get to mid afternoon with six or even seven wickets still left and then really go for it.

[Mike Selig]

But it might be asking too much of the 2 youngsters to step into such a demanding situation right away. Bairstow's struggles in the 90s suggests that he's just getting introduced to that kind of pressure, though his comeback from the disasters of the debut series suggests he's quick to learn.

But surely the later in the day, the greater the pressure? Getting from 100/3 to 250/5 is surely "easier" (in terms of pressure) than getting from 250/5 over the line? I would really want Prior if possible in there if a win becomes a real possibility at the end.

[Duty281]

If South Africa do win the series and become NO.1, their first series defending it will be against the Aussies in a 3 Test Series in Australia. If Australia win that series...Australia will be NO.1. Again.

[Mike Selig]

if we start chasing near wide balls we're going to increase the chances of getting out.

True, but let's not forget, if England get to a situation when they need 100 off 15 overs with 5 or 6 wickets in hand, I would think any remaining slips will be long gone. In which case chasing wide ones becomes far less risky.

I do think the key is wickets in hand. As long as England can keep South Africa nervous about losing they've got a chance, because Smith will have one eye on saving runs.

[msp83]

But it might be asking too much of the 2 youngsters to step into such a demanding situation right away. Bairstow's struggles in the 90s suggests that he's just getting introduced to that kind of pressure, though his comeback from the disasters of the debut series suggests he's quick to learn.

But surely the later in the day, the greater the pressure? Getting from 100/3 to 250/5 is surely "easier" (in terms of pressure) than getting from 250/5 over the line? I would really want Prior if possible in there if a win becomes a real possibility at the end.

Well its a dificult call. If England has to win this, someone will have to score a quick hundred. To do that under lots of pressure would take some experience besides the tallent. In this England lineup, Prior is the one with the right combination of experience and ability. Bairstow could come and blast a quick 30-40 like he did to take away from India in his debut ODI at the end, but to do it under pressure against a quality bowling unit for a sustained period where it would also be possible that wickets would be following?

[guildfordbat]

Like I said before the test series, I don't care about the ranking, test series wins are more important, the rankings are just a moment in time, SA hasn't lost an away series for more than 5 years now, that will always be in the record books.

Biltong - that pretty much reflects my own feelings and was an under current to my original question.

[Biltong]

Like I said before the test series, I don't care about the ranking, test series wins are more important, the rankings are just a moment in time, SA hasn't lost an away series for more than 5 years now, that will always be in the record books.

Biltong - that pretty much reflects my own feelings and was an under current to my original question.

[Mike Selig]

But it might be asking too much of the 2 youngsters to step into such a demanding situation right away. Bairstow's struggles in the 90s suggests that he's just getting introduced to that kind of pressure, though his comeback from the disasters of the debut series suggests he's quick to learn.

But surely the later in the day, the greater the pressure? Getting from 100/3 to 250/5 is surely "easier" (in terms of pressure) than getting from 250/5 over the line? I would really want Prior if possible in there if a win becomes a real possibility at the end.

Well its a dificult call. If England has to win this, someone will have to score a quick hundred. To do that under lots of pressure would take some experience besides the tallent. In this England lineup, Prior is the one with the right combination of experience and ability. Bairstow could come and blast a quick 30-40 like he did to take away from India in his debut ODI at the end, but to do it under pressure against a quality bowling unit for a sustained period where it would also be possible that wickets would be following?

I'm not sure England needs a quick hundred to be honest. As I said, if England proceed at a fraction over 3 to reach that 230/4 I've been talking about, it's then that you need Prior to come in and finish with a run-a-ball 60odd. Trott or Bell to score a solid hundred, the other + Taylor to make a rounded 50, then Bairstow and Prior to accelerate.

I see Prior more as a finisher than a main hundred man in this situation. I think the 100 has got to come from Bell or Trott (Taylor and Bairstow are of course capable of it, but under this amount of pressure it is asking a lot; I do think they can both make useful contributions though).

[KP_fan]

KP outbowls Swann in the series.....for the statistical minded

4 wickets at 77 runs each for Swann... 4 wickets at 22 runs each for Pietersen...

[KP_fan]

KP outbowls Swann in the series.....for the statistical minded

4 wickets at 77 runs each for Swann... 4 wickets at 22 runs each for Pietersen...

[Biltong]

We heard you the first time.

[Mike Selig]

We heard you the first time.

I didn't. I have no idea what he said. This is brilliant.

[Biltong]

We heard you the first time.

I didn't. I have no idea what he said. This is brilliant.

He was saying KP is his hero.

[KP_fan]

Milestones for Eng tomorrow

Win is out of question.....but there mustr be some tangible milestones to aim for when watching the game tomorrow. I woiuld givce credits to Eng tomorrow if each one of the following is achieved

--cross 200...1 credit

--cross 250..... 2 credits

--Draw 3 credits

[Mad for Chelsea]

We heard you the first time.

I didn't. I have no idea what he said. This is brilliant.

you didn't miss much...

For the record, I thought Swann bowled pretty well in this innings. An eco rate of just 2 runs per over over 47 overs stopped SA ever getting away from England (something that needs to be taken into acount when talking about RRs is that Tahir will be a lot more expensive than Swann was)

[DouglasJardinesbox]

Kp is picked on by most of his team, and the selectors etc, now on here, you are doing the same to KP-FAN? Get a grip guys and stop ganging up, you are like a bunch of internet bullies....

[eirebilly]

Kp is picked on by most of his team, and the selectors etc, now on here, you are doing the same to KP-FAN? Get a grip guys and stop ganging up, you are like a bunch of internet bullies....

Hey, i am not a bully, i am a keyboard warrior

[mystiroakey]

So KP's texts were supposedly tactical advice about how to get strauss out. what a plum.. he had to be dropped..KP must really truely hate Strauss

[DouglasJardinesbox]

So KP's texts were supposedly tactical advice about how to get strauss out. what a plum.. he had to be dropped..KP must really truely hate Strauss

I have a source that indeed has confirmed that the texts were tactical, and referenced the best way to get Strauss out. The exact text is quoted below:

"Bowl to him - cheers, KP"

[mystiroakey]

errrr

[KP_fan]

"We've got a great opportunity to assert ourselves on South Africa on the fifth morning and we really do believe we can win this game." ...Finn talking to media

when the going is tough...leaders ( Flower and Strauss) send the new ones...the nos. 11 and 12s to face the media.

[Fists of Fury]

I can't believe people are talking about how England might go about winning this.

It's gone. Our openers have failed (again - Cook has looked pathetically inept since the first Test ton) and Strauss is clearly miles past it. The middle order will crumble early doors and South Africa will complete a resounding win. It's what we deserve.

[mystiroakey]

FOF get your hat ready

[Shelsey93]

We heard you the first time.

I didn't. I have no idea what he said. This is brilliant.

It was specifically aimed at the statistically minded

[VTR]

Agree with Fists, this game is gone!

Yet again, in a run chase Strauss is out for a score around the region of 0. Its awful to watch a once great player struggle like this. Cook is back to one good score in a series accompanied by failures - quite worrying really.

This game was thrown away on the first day. That 50-4 needed to be converted to 150 all out.

[mystiroakey]

VTR that 50/4 has almost been repeated in all 4 innings- its just about the new ball.. there isnt enough help without it- this game so far has had 7 new balls- it has taken a wicket for about 10 runs. The old ball hasnt, There is no one to blame in this test- it has been very even, both teams batters have had issues with the new ball, both teams bolwers have had issues when the ball is old.. It has been very high quality cricket in my view

[VTR]

Well aware of that mystir. Just that first morning we had the best bowling conditions of the game and 50-4 regardless of conditions/new ball is a big pressure situation. SA batted well to get out of it, but it was our big chance and we didn't take it.

[ChequeredJersey]

So KP's texts were supposedly tactical advice about how to get strauss out. what a plum.. he had to be dropped..KP must really truely hate Strauss

I have a source that indeed has confirmed that the texts were tactical, and referenced the best way to get Strauss out. The exact text is quoted below:

"Bowl to him - cheers, KP"

Got to say that made me chuckle

[mystiroakey]

We still have a chance lads.. I am not giving up hope yet!!

Come on England

[KP_fan]

We heard you the first time.

I didn't. I have no idea what he said. This is brilliant.

It was specifically aimed at the statistically minded

who haven't shown up yet today....

[Biltong]

We heard you the first time.

I didn't. I have no idea what he said. This is brilliant.

It was specifically aimed at the statistically minded

who haven't shown up yet today....

Hey! I am statistically minded.

[Fists of Fury]

Our pathetic inability to remove the likes of Philander, along with our atrocious catching is what has done for us (yet again), along with the aforementioned point that our openers look terrible.

You simply cannot combine those factors and hope to win cricket matches against good sides. It is a miracle that we were still in the contest up until about tea yesterday.

Strauss out (Trott up to open). Taylor/Bairstow out, get KP back in. Broad out, get Onions in.

Then I might be happy.

[Biltong]

I really do hope we can win this one, compared to the drawn tests in SA when Steyn was coming back from injury and Morkel at that stage not getting many wickets and you add the fact that Philander is looking better and more confident I think we have a chance today.

I am still not sold on the effectiveness of Imran Tahir though.

He doesn't look like he can build pressure sufficiently to get batsmen to play false shots, he reminds me a lot of Paul (Gogga) adams, there is always a 4 ball in every over.

Compare the fielding Strauss can set for Swann vs the fielding Smith sets for Tahir, there is a vast difference.

I doubt Tahir has ever bowled an innings with an economy rate of 2.

[msp83]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/578383.html

Something for everyone involved in the Pietersen Saga to think about. England has very little chances of winning this one, but the larger issues need to be resolved before the team can move forward.

[mystiroakey]

"Strauss out (Trott up to open). Taylor/Bairstow out, get KP back in. Broad out, get Onions in."



We have to blood these youngsters in . Even if we lose we are giving valuable experience... And who would you pick as repacements?

[msp83]

Biltong, leggies often go for runs, but propperly used, a good leggy can be a major wicket taking threat. Remember the Australian? Not the greatest, but Stuart McGill? He too used to give away at least 1 4 ball every over, but at times he even outbowled Warne and McGrath.
Not at all suggesting Tahir is in that class by any means, but South Africa will have to trust him for some more time, Smith should be a bit more proactive with him, as to when to introduce him and the kind of field settings he needs to be attacking. In the last hour of the previous test, I thought Smith should have used Tahir a bit more rather than bringing Jacques Kallis who had some fitness concerns in the morning.

[Shelsey93]

Biltong, leggies often go for runs, but propperly used, a good leggy can be a major wicket taking threat. Remember the Australian? Not the greatest, but Stuart McGill? He too used to give away at least 1 4 ball every over, but at times he even outbowled Warne and McGrath.
Not at all suggesting Tahir is in that class by any means, but South Africa will have to trust him for some more time, Smith should be a bit more proactive with him, as to when to introduce him and the kind of field settings he needs to be attacking. In the last hour of the previous test, I thought Smith should have used Tahir a bit more rather than bringing Jacques Kallis who had some fitness concerns in the morning.

Indeed. Leggies are very difficult to manage, as I well know myself - too many captains at all levels of the game are far too quick to take a leggie out of the attack when they leak a few runs.

However, I do think that Tahir has some issues at international level. Hardly any of his wicket have been top-order players, which suggests to me that good players are largely untroubled by him. The theory goes that, unlike domestic players, Test players pick his googly and so negate his major weapon. The number of loose deliveries also means that there is rarely a need to go after Tahir's better deliveries as England had to do at times this winter against the Pakistani spinners.

[VTR]

I am still not sold on the effectiveness of Imran Tahir though.

He doesn't look like he can build pressure sufficiently to get batsmen to play false shots, he reminds me a lot of Paul (Gogga) adams, there is always a 4 ball in every over.

.

I thought it was very sporting of your lot to play Tahir - we've got to get some runs from somewhere! A Paul Harris type would still suit I think - tie up an end then the excellent seamers rotate and attack.

Anyway, you'll win this one. The only time I've ever seen England pull off anything like this was vs Aussies in 2001 when Butcher played a once in a lifetime innings. And even that was a lower total to be chased and in a dead rubber.

[KP_fan]

There are two types of spinners...
1st who can set up test match wins throuhg their first inning or any time bowling...

2nd who can bowl well under certain situations

Imran Tahir is a second category.....situational bowler.....i.e 4th innning, rough patches, cracking pitch.....huge cushion of runs to bowl at....pressures created by the best pace attack in the world......and then he has enouhg in his armoury to be effective with big leg-breaks...some googlies and pluck out 2 to 3 wickets in middle overs with old ball and turn a draw inot a win.

we all would like category-1 spinners....but have to make do with category-2 in the absence of first category who appear once in few decades.

Most teams in the world today have category-2 spinners except Pakistan.....ironically WI...the home of pace bowling.. look like having a few options that may fit in category-1 if they get their act together

[Gerry SA]

Personally I miss Paul Harris. He did the containing job. Gritty with the bat and solid fielder.

Tahir's batting and fielding is terrible. Bowling hasn't shown much so far either.

[msp83]

You have another young spinner coming up Biltong, the U19 kid Subrayen apparently was turning them big yesterday.

[Biltong]

All true guys, but in my opinion tahir doesn't seem to think about how he is going to get a batsman out.

when you look at other legspinners it seems they have a plan on how they will work a player out, tahir seems to concentrate more on getting the delivery out, rather than what te delivery will do, Gerry, I agree with you, Paul Harris wasn't the biggest wicket taker, but he built pressure and helped the blwers from the other end. Tahir doesn't do that, he might at some point, but being 32 years old already, in my view a bit too late already.

[Biltong]

You have another young spinner coming up Biltong, the U19 kid Subrayen apparently was turning them big yesterday.

MSP, I wached him bowl against England. the pitch was rather benign, he pitched a ball roughly in line where a wide will be called in ODI's and it came back with a vengeance that if it wasn't for the nick of the english batsmen it certainly would have been very close to hitting the off stump.

So he does get soem spin, but he gets great bounce as well.

[Gerry SA]

All true guys, but in my opinion tahir doesn't seem to think about how he is going to get a batsman out.

when you look at other legspinners it seems they have a plan on how they will work a player out, tahir seems to concentrate more on getting the delivery out, rather than what te delivery will do, Gerry, I agree with you, Paul Harris wasn't the biggest wicket taker, but he built pressure and helped the blwers from the other end. Tahir doesn't do that, he might at some point, but being 32 years old already, in my view a bit too late already.

Exactly BB. If you look at averages, both Harris and Tahir average 37. Harris was dropped due to lack of wickets. But he still got over 100 wickets.

I personally think JP will be more trouble for England today than Tahir.

[msp83]

Seems Harris is completely out of favor these days, Robin Petersen seems to be the backup spinner. I have in fact seen him turning a few in some of the ODI matches he played, and he is more than capable with the bat. May be SA should give him a go if Tahir can't cut?

[ShankyCricket]

A tad pre mature to drop Broad to be honest but Strauss has to go.

[Gerry SA]

Seems Harris is completely out of favor these days, Robin Petersen seems to be the backup spinner. I have in fact seen him turning a few in some of the ODI matches he played, and he is more than capable with the bat. May be SA should give him a go if Tahir can't cut?

I like Robin Peterson but I consider him more an ODI/T20 player. Good batsman, amazing fielder and decent spinner.

[Mad for Chelsea]

yeah let's drop Broad, it's a full match since he last got a 5-for, and he was awful against the WI too (11 in the first match?)

[ShankyCricket]

yeah let's drop Broad, it's a full match since he last got a 5-for, and he was awful against the WI too (11 in the first match?)

Exactly! Though I am not going to talk about performances against WI. He was fantastic in the UAE.

[Gerry SA]

With Broad the concern has to be his bowling speeds not wicket taking.

When I've seen him bowl in the past, he's up around 88-91mph. In this series he's barely around 80mph.

Where has his pace gone?

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