[solved]Heavyweight rankings Top 10 Head to Head with a time machine and Peak for Peak. EDITED

Exactly as it says on the tin

Your Heavyweight top tens on a who beats who basis and with no adjustments made to the fighters for weight height etc. Example - I'd have Tua knocking out Norton in less than 3 rounds but I don't think Tua can be ranked higher than him by any stretch of the imagination - well except this one. I've got Ali at the top automatically but may change as it goes through the fights. At the end - we can compare it to our genuine top 10's and see how they compare. The top ranked is who has the most wins and so forth. J

Just to limit this to a sensible sample we'll use http://www.sports-ratings.com/fights/heavyweight-boxing-top-100-alltime-peak-rating.html just the top 30 fighters there.


I'm not claiming these are reliable and the rankings are all over the place but if you just use the top 30 fighters there to select a top ten of who wins the most - in a single fight, it would contain most if not all of the greatest heavies that would grace our normal top 10s. So consider this a casual fans list. I've been thinking about this for half an hour and its giving me a headache - so a problem shared is a problem halved.

Shah

EDIT

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Right Lads, i've got my lot for this

1) Ali
2) Foreman
3) Louis
4) Liston
5) Tyson
6) Holmes
7) Lewis
8) Frazier
9) Wladimir Klitschko
10) Johnson


Would you like to compare them to your genuine top 10's and note which keeps his ranking and who loses his position in the top 10 entirely.

This is pretty tricky and for the heavyweights, it will favour fighters from the past 50 years or so. It bears no resemblence to my top 10 but here goes (I didn't really pay attention to the list on that link and just thought about the top 20 or so heavyweight and who would come off best in a round robin):

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Liston
6. Holmes
7. Vitali
8. Wlad
9. Louis
10. Frazier

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Lewis
4. Louis/Tunney
5. Charles
6. Vitali
7. Dempsey/Tyson (cannot decide)
8. Wlad
9. Bowe
10. Frazier

Not my real top 10, but I think this is how I'd rank, Liston, Jeffries and Marciano just outside a top 10

1. Ali
2. Holmes
3. Foreman
4. Liston
5. Tyson
6. Louis
7. Lewis
8. Vitali
9. Wlad
10. Frazier

Maybe the toughest one to evaluate is Bowe. At his small number of top displays and brief peak I can see him beating a number of the guys on the list but felt I had to leave him out because he just didnt have the consistency. The Bowe from Holyfield 1 could have beaten all but a few of the names on that list though potentially.

Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Liston
Foreman
Bowe
Louis
Frazier
Holy
Witherspoon


Lennox









Bugner









Banjo



Rocky.

Azania, close them gaps, lol. You're vulnerable to the jab.

manos de piedra wrote:Maybe the toughest one to evaluate is Bowe. At his small number of top displays and brief peak I can see him beating a number of the guys on the list but felt I had to leave him out because he just didnt have the consistency. The Bowe from Holyfield 1 could have beaten all but a few of the names on that list though potentially.

Thats how I felt but I had to include him as I went for absolute peak.

davidemore wrote:Azania, close them gaps, lol. You're vulnerable to the jab.

But still as impervious as ever to the possibility of the joke becoming funny any time soon

I had Bowe, Holyfield and Frazier under consideration for the tenth spot. In the end I went for Frazier's consistency and the fact that he would be a nightmare for a number of the more passive fighters that appear in the top 20.

Ali
Louis
Foreman
Tyson
Holmes
Liston
Lewis
Douglas
Frazier
Bowe

I think if you suppose it a kind of round robin tournament, consistency comes into play a fair bit because you are assuming they face off against all their rivals. This is what lead me to leave out Bowe (or even Douglas) in the end. On their day they might beat almost anyone in the right conditions. But I cant see them replicating it over a tough series with all the other greats.

Based on their best single performance.

Ali
Foreman
Tyson
Douglas
Bowe
Louis
Holmes
Frazier
Liston
Lewis

manos de piedra wrote:I think if you suppose it a kind of round robin tournament, consistency comes into play a fair bit because you are assuming they face off against all their rivals. This is what lead me to leave out Bowe (or even Douglas) in the end. On their day they might beat almost anyone in the right conditions. But I cant see them replicating it over a tough series with all the other greats.

But we've got a time machine. I was thinking they all get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas, New York to fight Frazier etc.

Lewis
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Frazier
Tyson
Wlad
Louis
Liston
Holyfield

fearlessBamber wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think if you suppose it a kind of round robin tournament, consistency comes into play a fair bit because you are assuming they face off against all their rivals. This is what lead me to leave out Bowe (or even Douglas) in the end. On their day they might beat almost anyone in the right conditions. But I cant see them replicating it over a tough series with all the other greats.

But we've got a time machine. I was thinking they all get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas, New York to fight Frazier etc.

Isn't it just a simple head to head based on peak versus peak?

What is peak though? As little as a once off fight/performance? Or as as much as several years?

Ali
Foreman
Tyson
Lewis
Bowe
Liston
Louis
Holmes
Johnson
Frazier
Dempsey / Tunney

Douglas??

I realise I have included 12 fighters here.

fearlessBamber wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think if you suppose it a kind of round robin tournament, consistency comes into play a fair bit because you are assuming they face off against all their rivals. This is what lead me to leave out Bowe (or even Douglas) in the end. On their day they might beat almost anyone in the right conditions. But I cant see them replicating it over a tough series with all the other greats.

But we've got a time machine. I was thinking they all get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas, New York to fight Frazier etc.

How does that work? All the other greats get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas? In that case surely Douglas ranks above Tyson? How do Frazier and Douglas fight if one is either being transported to Tokyo or New York?

I would tend to the view question in a slightly different way anyhow. Fraziers and Nortons wins over Ali or Schmelings over Louis would surely rate higher than Douglas/Tyson or Bowe/Holyfield though in any event?

I take the discussion to mean;

Transport Tokyo Douglas to fight Toledo Dempsey (presumably in a neutral location, such as Mars)

Gentleman01 wrote:I take the discussion to mean;

Transport Tokyo Douglas to fight Toledo Dempsey (presumably in a neutral location, such as Mars)

That was how I interpreted it, hence my inclusion of Douglas

Tricky task, Shah.

For the sake of my own sanity if nothing else, I've decided to consider only men who I'd have inside the top fifteen Heavies of all time, otherwise I'd have to put even more time and thought in to it than I already have. So that excludes (just) Vitali. I can see why Bowe and Douglas have been mentioned, but it seems that these are based solely on one performance per man, so again I've decided against including them.

1) Ali
2) Foreman
3) Liston
4) Louis
5) Holmes
6) Tyson
7) Lewis
8) Johnson
9) Wladimir Klitschko
10) Frazier

manos de piedra wrote:

fearlessBamber wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think if you suppose it a kind of round robin tournament, consistency comes into play a fair bit because you are assuming they face off against all their rivals. This is what lead me to leave out Bowe (or even Douglas) in the end. On their day they might beat almost anyone in the right conditions. But I cant see them replicating it over a tough series with all the other greats.

But we've got a time machine. I was thinking they all get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas, New York to fight Frazier etc.

How does that work? All the other greats get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas? In that case surely Douglas ranks above Tyson? How do Frazier and Douglas fight if one is either being transported to Tokyo or New York?

I would tend to the view question in a slightly different way anyhow. Fraziers and Nortons wins over Ali or Schmelings over Louis would surely rate higher than Douglas/Tyson or Bowe/Holyfield though in any event?

It's true about the location - guess they would have to do home or away.

However, it's not about ranking wins in best performances, it's about the performance. I think the Bowe from Holyfield 1 and the Douglas from Tokyo would beat nearly every heavyweight in history. I base that on the video - nothing else. Isn't that the point of this exercise.

Please don't tell me that Marciano would walk down the Douglas that gave Tyson a hiding. I refuse to believe it.

What is peak though? As little as a once off fight/performance? Or as as much as several years?

Perhaps "prime" is a better word for it. I took the view that peak meant at their best but not necessarily a specific fight. This still excludes Bowe and Douglas (in my view) in a round robin tournament because even in their prime , they didn't maintain consistencty over a sustained period.

Perhaps we're over-analysing it though.

It just means them at their very best and from that top 30 (if you need it) Douglas has one fight where he showed that on his day he could be the best fighter in the world, I don't really want that caveat - on his day - just the period when he was at his best in regards to himself, his speed his power his performance. Prime is probably the better word as our superheavyweight superflyweight pointed out

fearlessBamber wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

fearlessBamber wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I think if you suppose it a kind of round robin tournament, consistency comes into play a fair bit because you are assuming they face off against all their rivals. This is what lead me to leave out Bowe (or even Douglas) in the end. On their day they might beat almost anyone in the right conditions. But I cant see them replicating it over a tough series with all the other greats.

But we've got a time machine. I was thinking they all get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas, New York to fight Frazier etc.

How does that work? All the other greats get transported to Tokyo to fight Douglas? In that case surely Douglas ranks above Tyson? How do Frazier and Douglas fight if one is either being transported to Tokyo or New York?

I would tend to the view question in a slightly different way anyhow. Fraziers and Nortons wins over Ali or Schmelings over Louis would surely rate higher than Douglas/Tyson or Bowe/Holyfield though in any event?

It's true about the location - guess they would have to do home or away.

However, it's not about ranking wins in best performances, it's about the performance. I think the Bowe from Holyfield 1 and the Douglas from Tokyo would beat nearly every heavyweight in history. I base that on the video - nothing else. Isn't that the point of this exercise.

Please don't tell me that Marciano would walk down the Douglas that gave Tyson a hiding. I refuse to believe it.

Marciano no, but why not the Norton that beat Ali? The Schmeling that beat Louis, the Ali that beat Liston or the Frazier that beat Ali or the Foreman that beat Frazier?

As good as Douglas was against Tyson, Im still not sure his one off best performance is neccessarily better than a good few other heavyweights. Same goes for Bowe. They tend to stick out a bit more because they are contrasted against the inconsistency that surrounds them.

You have to consider though, that although the Douglas that smashed Tyson would beat The Rock, would he beat someone a little more recent? Would he be able to beat Tyson again? A different Tyson? Would he beat Lewis? I've based on a whole "he would beat x but he wouldn't beat x and x"

superflyweight wrote:

What is peak though? As little as a once off fight/performance? Or as as much as several years?

Perhaps "prime" is a better word for it. I took the view that peak meant at their best but not necessarily a specific fight. This still excludes Bowe and Douglas (in my view) in a round robin tournament because even in their prime , they didn't maintain consistencty over a sustained period.

Perhaps we're over-analysing it though.

I would kind of view them as seperate questions. One is basically rating a fighter on their best ever performance. The other I would consider more their overall chance against the other greats. In the question being posed in this thread I would lean towards the latter question as the one being asked.

Douglas was great that night in Tokyo but I think its slightly over celebrated partly due to the fact he was such an underdog and partly because he was never able to repeat that kind of form. But I still dont neccessarily think it makes him as imperious as is often alluded to. There have been many stellar heavyweight performances over there years and if you take every other top heavyeight at their absolute best night I still think Douglas loses to alot of them.

manos wrote:Marciano no, but why not the Norton that beat Ali? The Schmeling that beat Louis, the Ali that beat Liston or the Frazier that beat Ali or the Foreman that beat Frazier?

As good as Douglas was against Tyson, Im still not sure his one off best performance is neccessarily better than a good few other heavyweights. Same goes for Bowe. They tend to stick out a bit more because they are contrasted against the inconsistency that surrounds them.

I don't rate the Norton win. Norton was all wrong for Ali - his only real weakness was his chin and Ali did not have the power to hurt him. Same with Schmeling - don't rate it. Louis was green and Max exploited it. I don't see that performance translating to other fights.

The Frazier, Foreman and Ali examples I agree with and that is why I rate them so highly.

Tunney is an interesting choice. He's my favourite fighter of all time but I couldn't find a place for him. If shah had cut the period of consideration off with the end of Holmes' reign, I'd have possibly had Tunney in my top 5 on a head to head basis. However, the advent of the super heavys really starts to hurt his chances. Tyson (albeit not a super heavy), Lewis, Bowe, Wlad and Vitali would all have to start as favourites against him and he tumbles out of my top 10.

superflyweight wrote:This is pretty tricky and for the heavyweights, it will favour fighters from the past 50 years or so. It bears no resemblence to my top 10 but here goes (I didn't really pay attention to the list on that link and just thought about the top 20 or so heavyweight and who would come off best in a round robin):

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Lewis
4. Tyson
5. Liston
6. Holmes
7. Vitali
8. Wlad
9. Louis
10. Frazier

Superfly's list looks good to me.

I agree that Superfly's list looks pretty damn good - not just because it bears some resemblance to mine, either!

The only real quibble I'd have with it is Louis down at number nine - any particular reasons for it, 'fly? I'd say he should command a higher place, personally, but am willing to listen to a good argument for why he shouldn't. Any particular fights amongst this lot which you see as a real nightmare for him?

I did struggle with Louis most of all, Chris and I did toy with putting him ahead of Vitali and Wlad. However, whilst I think he's a clear number two behind Ali in the all time heavyweight stakes, I do think he suffers on a head to head basis.

Whilst not certain to lose to all of the fighters above him on my list, I do think he loses to Ali more often than not, and that Foreman, Liston and Tyson all essentially out gun him in the power stakes and get to him before he gets to them. Holmes is probably a pick em which I maybe see Louis edging more often than not. The reason I have Holmes ahead of Louis is that I fancy his chances more against the other heavys The problem I have with Louis against Lewis and Wlad is the sheer size differential coupled with their athleticism. Both Lennox and Wlad are capable of controlling a fight at distance. I know Louis dealt handily with bigger men but none of the calibre of Lewis and Wlad. I think he's about 35:65against Lewis and 45:55 against Wlad. I do fancy his chances against Vitali but again have Vitali ahead of him as he matches up better against other heavyweights.

Outside of those I've mentioned, Louis beats Frazier, Holyfield, Dempsey (probably) and Marciano but could struggle against others like Tunney and Bowe.

Saying all that, it's pretty close and tomorrow I could change my mind and have Louis as high as five or six.

Lewis athletic?\Not for me.\I found him very ponderous and clumsy especially with that overhand right he always threw. It reminded me of a cricket bowler.

My list is simply who I believe are the best 10 HW fighters. My top 3/4 are set in stone and the others are very much interchangeable. Witherspon is my wildcard as I reckon at his very best he would be a match for any HW who ever lived.

I already put a 10 on another thread but been doing more home work since so it might be different.. I think most of these top ten could beat each other on their day.

1, Ali
2, Foreman
3, Lewis
4, Marciano
5, Louis
6, Frazier
7, Holyfield
8, VK
9, WK
10, Tyson

Edited:

My top 10 based purley on who would beat who if they fought one another:

1)Louis.
2)Ali
3)Liston
4)Holmes
5)Johnson
6)Foreman
7)Tyson
8)K2
9)Marciano
10)Frazier

Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tunney, Charles would all be around the 10-15 mark.

ShahenshahG wrote:I'm not claiming these are reliable

Just as well, PRIMO CARNERA is 23rd on that list!

1. Ali
2. Lewis
3. Louis
4. Holmes
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Tyson
8. Liston
9. Vitali
10. Bowe

1. Ali
2. Foreman
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Louis
6. Johnson
7. Tyson
8. Liston
9. Frazier
10. Tunney

Some very strange lists here. Im not going to go through every possible match up for the heavyweights but if you operated a league system where they all fought each other home and away then the final top ten outcome would be.

1. Ali
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Marciano
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Liston
8. Holyfield
9. Louis
10. Dempsey

Over 15 rounds...
Ali
Foreman
Louis
Liston
Holmes
Dempsey
Lewis
Frazier
Bowe
Tyson

Every time I see the Klistchkos in the top tens like this, I look back at the performences they've put on to earn it.

Wlad's best wins are Haye and former Calzaghe victim Chris Byrd.

Gordy wrote:Some very strange lists here. Im not going to go through every possible match up for the heavyweights but if you operated a league system where they all fought each other home and away then the final top ten outcome would be.

1. Ali
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Marciano
5. Foreman
6. Frazier
7. Liston
8. Holyfield
9. Louis
10. Dempsey

Foreman would have sent Rocky into orbit. If he could lift Frazier off the floor with a punch I would seriously fear for Rocky's life.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Over 15 rounds...
Ali
Foreman
Louis
Liston
Holmes
Dempsey
Lewis
Frazier
Bowe
Tyson

Do you not think 15 rounds would be Foreman's weakness JBW? That maybe he'd be gassing after 10 and susceptible to being taken out by other fighters in your top10 that has survived his early onslaught? Similar comments could be made about Tyson though you have him suitably lower ranked.

I'd like to know where this opinion (which is now passed as fact) that when Tyson got passed the first few rounds, he became vulnerable. That was true post prison, but in his pre prison days, if you got past the first few rounds, you simply got a beating for longer.

Foreman would not have beaten Rocky. Rocky Balboa maybe but not Marciano! Marciano and Foreman were equal in power but Marciano had the better chin, heart and stamina which would make the difference. The fight would be a war with both guys refusing to take a backwards step but Marcianos better chin, heart and stamina would make the differance and he would knock Foreman out in a war. Marciano was never beaten, never knocked out and has the highest knockout percentage of any heavyweight champion in history. This speaks for itself. Foreman was a great fighter but he would lose to Ali, Lewis, Tyson and Marciano. He would beat the rest.

Foreman's win over Frazier is better than anything on Marciano's ledger though.

Foreman would not have beaten Rocky. Rocky Balboa maybe but not Marciano! Marciano and Foreman were equal in power but Marciano had the better chin, heart and stamina which would make the difference. The fight would be a war with both guys refusing to take a backwards step but Marcianos better chin, heart and stamina would make the differance and he would knock Foreman out in a war. Marciano was never beaten, never knocked out and has the highest knockout percentage of any heavyweight champion in history. This speaks for itself. Foreman was a great fighter but he would lose to Ali, Lewis, Tyson and Marciano. He would beat the rest.

You have my blessing to go get 'im, Az!

Gordy wrote:Foreman would not have beaten Rocky. Rocky Balboa maybe but not Marciano! Marciano and Foreman were equal in power but Marciano had the better chin, heart and stamina which would make the difference. The fight would be a war with both guys refusing to take a backwards step but Marcianos better chin, heart and stamina would make the differance and he would knock Foreman out in a war. Marciano was never beaten, never knocked out and has the highest knockout percentage of any heavyweight champion in history. This speaks for itself. Foreman was a great fighter but he would lose to Ali, Lewis, Tyson and Marciano. He would beat the rest.

In which universe would Rocky beat Foreman? Certainly not in planet earth. Arguable if Rock hit as hard as foreman. Plus foreman was never decked by a lightheavyweight. But most importantly, Rocky was easy to hit. Foreman would hit him so often with the left hook that Rocky would be begging for the right. All over in one round. Probably around the 45 second mark if Rocky is lucky.

Rocky may have a chance against the China chinned, heartless Lewis though.

K2 have a higher KO percentage.

Yes Rocky is a top 10 HW. The top 10 worst HW in history.

LOL