England v SA. 4th ODI, Lords

First topic message reminder :

Now that England have the number one position back, SA will be keen to beat them at Lords to regain the #1 spot and England will be desperate to consolidate the #1. This has the makings of a very good match.

I cant see any team making any changes from the third ODI.

England 1 Alastair Cook (capt), 2 Ian Bell, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Ravi Bopara, 5 Eoin Morgan, 6 Craig Kieswetter (wk), 7 Samit Patel, 8 James Tredwell, 9 Jade Dernbach, 10 James Anderson, 11 Steve Finn.

South Africa 1 Graeme Smith, 2 Hashim Amla, 3 JP Duminy, 4 Dean Elgar, 5 AB de Villiers (capt, wk), 6 Faf du Plessis, 7 Wayne Parnell, 8 Robin Peterson, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Lonwabo Tsotsobe.

Kieswetter finished it with a six! 2 consecutive strolls for England and that No.1 spot is guaranteed till the end of the series.

What a way to finish a great day for Kieswetter

Well done England, very professional performance. Great bowling, Trott, Bell and Morgan, top stuff.

England can not lose the series now.

eirebilly wrote:So i have fat fingers now eh Hibbz.

I really cant be bothered with you. You resort to pathetic little digs instead of backing up your claim. If i never said that he cost England matches then i didnt say that and now you are trying to claim that i said that indirectly.

I will let you respond to this with your last comment and will no longer respond to you as it really isnt worth anymore of my time.

Aw man it was just a comment that you'd misused the quote/delete button, heck it's diddled many a poster myself included hasn't it?

"If i never said that he cost England matches then i didnt say that and now you are trying to claim that i said that indirectly."

You can have the last word with that one old bean.

Pollock really is un-reservedly biased isn't he, in commentary and in post match analysis, haven't enjoyed him at all.

I really used to like Pollock but i have gone off him a bit lately.

Duty281 wrote:Kieswetter finished it with a six! 2 consecutive strolls for England and that No.1 spot is guaranteed till the end of the series.

We will end 2012 as No1 of this format at least. Shame we can only play it well at home.

SA got some issues in the bowling department.

Apart from Steyn and Morne, the other Seamers have been terrible.

Parnell used to be a 145kph swing bowler, but he can't seem to shape the ball into the right handers anymore.

Tsotsobe has been all over the place. Bowling at 125-130kph you gotta bowl with disciple. He doesn't have that discipline.

McLaren just doesn't seem to be international standard.

The injury to Albie is preventing AB from selecting Tahir.

What is also very evident is Marchant de Lange is being missed. He bowls 150-155kph, but bowls a fuller length then Morne. I expect him to walk into the side when he recovers from his back injury.

LondonTiger wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Kieswetter finished it with a six! 2 consecutive strolls for England and that No.1 spot is guaranteed till the end of the series.

We will end 2012 as No1 of this format at least. Shame we can only play it well at home.

Well home and the UAE

I think Bairstow may well of played at Trent Bridge anyway. But it looks fairly likely now if Trott does indeed have a fracture in his hand.

Ouch :/ That is problematic
Bairstow deserves a spot, but hes too quick scoring for the anchor role ( ) and Bopara at 3 is just ..worrying. Career average just over 30, no score over 22 in his last 8 games (inc county level) doest bode well.
Cook may have to hang on for more than one over this time.

On Bopara..hes a real conundrum now. Theres no question his bowling has been handy the last 2 games and several previous..but his batting, the Aus series aside, is simply not up to scratch. Keiswetter has a similar average with a far higher SR (Bopara's is the same as Trotts with an average more than 18 lower) and his place is being questioned .
Its hard to balance Englands side without Bopara, as Patel isnt being used, but also hard to see how he can be picked in a batsmans slot currently...wouldnt woakes be a better bowler and no worse a batsman?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ouch :/ That is problematic
Bairstow deserves a spot, but hes too quick scoring for the anchor role ( ) and Bopara at 3 is just ..worrying. Career average just over 30, no score over 22 in his last 8 games (inc county level) doest bode well.
Cook may have to hang on for more than one over this time.

On Bopara..hes a real conundrum now. Theres no question his bowling has been handy the last 2 games and several previous..but his batting, the Aus series aside, is simply not up to scratch. Keiswetter has a similar average with a far higher SR (Bopara's is the same as Trotts with an average more than 18 lower) and his place is being questioned .
Its hard to balance Englands side without Bopara, as Patel isnt being used, but also hard to see how he can be picked in a batsmans slot currently...wouldnt woakes be a better bowler and no worse a batsman?

Indeed a problem if Trott does not make it. And at the risk of getting slated, Woakes is probably a better bat than Bops at this moment in time.

skyeman wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ouch :/ That is problematic
Bairstow deserves a spot, but hes too quick scoring for the anchor role ( ) and Bopara at 3 is just ..worrying. Career average just over 30, no score over 22 in his last 8 games (inc county level) doest bode well.
Cook may have to hang on for more than one over this time.

On Bopara..hes a real conundrum now. Theres no question his bowling has been handy the last 2 games and several previous..but his batting, the Aus series aside, is simply not up to scratch. Keiswetter has a similar average with a far higher SR (Bopara's is the same as Trotts with an average more than 18 lower) and his place is being questioned .
Its hard to balance Englands side without Bopara, as Patel isnt being used, but also hard to see how he can be picked in a batsmans slot currently...wouldnt woakes be a better bowler and no worse a batsman?

Indeed a problem if Trott does not make it. And at the risk of getting slated, Woakes is probably a better bat than Bops at this moment in time.

Tinky Winky is a better bat that Bops.....

eirebilly wrote:If England were chasing 300+, would you be comfortable with Trott?

I think he struggles to adjust more than most, but he's highly unlikely to lose you any game by scoring runs! Had we got off to a good start he would slide down the order below Bopara and Morgan if we still needed to really push the rate.

It should also be noted that in reality these big run chases are rare events... in this summer's ODIs we haven't had one once, nor did we in the UAE.


If Trott doesn't make the next match Taylor comes in for me to bat 4, with Bopara shuffling up to 3. I don't want Bairstow in those 3 or 4 positions, and I also don't really want Morgan at 4, as I wouldn't want him coming to the crease at 10-2 and most likely not being around to finish the innings. As I said the other day Ravi really is a critical cog in this England side and has to play whether he's in form or not. This series has highlighted his problems with confidence when he gets on a run of low scores but he has had some very good one-day form in the previous couple of series and its essential that England have the extra bowling option that he provides them with.

I struggle to understand why people still doubt his ability to contribute with the bat... he starred against Australia, did well in the UAE and also had a very good time against India last summer...

Shelsey93 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:If England were chasing 300+, would you be comfortable with Trott?

I think he struggles to adjust more than most, but he's highly unlikely to lose you any game by scoring runs! Had we got off to a good start he would slide down the order below Bopara and Morgan if we still needed to really push the rate.

It should also be noted that in reality these big run chases are rare events... in this summer's ODIs we haven't had one once, nor did we in the UAE.


If Trott doesn't make the next match Taylor comes in for me to bat 4, with Bopara shuffling up to 3. I don't want Bairstow in those 3 or 4 positions, and I also don't really want Morgan at 4, as I wouldn't want him coming to the crease at 10-2 and most likely not being around to finish the innings. As I said the other day Ravi really is a critical cog in this England side and has to play whether he's in form or not. This series has highlighted his problems with confidence when he gets on a run of low scores but he has had some very good one-day form in the previous couple of series and its essential that England have the extra bowling option that he provides them with.

I struggle to understand why people still doubt his ability to contribute with the bat... he starred against Australia, did well in the UAE and also had a very good time against India last summer...

It probably has something to do with his averages in all forms of the International game. One swallow does not make a summer.

Not many other top teams would have kept faith in such an average player: maybe BD, NZ or Zimbabwe would have though.

skyeman wrote:It probably has something to do with his averages in all forms of the International game.

I think that there has been an improvement of late though (in ODIs at least). Having a defined role at number 4 certainly helps with that.

The problem with Ravi though seems to be his infuriating inconsistency. He had a good ODI series at home against India last year. He played a good knock under pressure at Lord's and seemed like he had turned a corner. 15 days later, he couldn't buy a run against the same opposition in India. He had a good series against Oz this summer and now this. This is the problem with Ravi. Not that he is a bad player. Its also not true that he hasn't performed under pressure. He has in the past. The problem is this inconsistency. I think he deserves the next match and possibly a few T20IS but at some point, selectors will have to take a hard stance. The problem with Ravi is that when he is good, he is good. Even at his best, he won't destroy attacks in the manner that a KP does nor will he score the hundreds with the consistency of a Cook or a Trott. But he will score runs. But at his worst, he is utterly awful which makes it hard to stick with him during his lean run because even in good form, he is good but nothing special but when he is poor, he is really very bad. Not calling for his head yet. He deserves the next match and possibly the T20IS against SA but at some point, the selectors will have to take a hard line on his inconsistency.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:The problem with Ravi though seems to be his infuriating inconsistency. He had a good ODI series at home against India last year. He played a good knock under pressure at Lord's and seemed like he had turned a corner. 15 days later, he couldn't buy a run against the same opposition in India. He had a good series against Oz this summer and now this. This is the problem with Ravi. Not that he is a bad player. Its also not true that he hasn't performed under pressure. He has in the past. The problem is this inconsistency. I think he deserves the next match and possibly a few T20IS but at some point, selectors will have to take a hard stance. The problem with Ravi is that when he is good, he is good. Even at his best, he won't destroy attacks in the manner that a KP does nor will he score the hundreds with the consistency of a Cook or a Trott. But he will score runs. But at his worst, he is utterly awful which makes it hard to stick with him during his lean run because even in good form, he is good but nothing special but when he is poor, he is really very bad. Not calling for his head yet. He deserves the next match and possibly the T20IS against SA but at some point, the selectors will have to take a hard line on his inconsistency.

A very fair assessment. Particularly with regard to the inconsistency problem.

All I would add is that I think his bowling makes him essential to the ODI team, whether he's in-form with the bat or not. No other English batsman can bowl as well as he can (save for Stokes, but to get him in the side would require a bit of a reshuffle and an improvement in form). Were you to leave him out of the ODI team in India how would you compensate for that? Presumably Taylor would bat at 4?

I think you sum Ravi up pretty well shanky. Good against India (h), Aus (h) and Pakistan (a) but poor against India (a), SA (h) and 1 poor score vs Ireland.

I think he'll be given a run in all formats until at least the end of the New Zealand tour and he needs to show some consistency in that time. A big score wouldn't go amiss either.

Shelsey93 wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:The problem with Ravi though seems to be his infuriating inconsistency. He had a good ODI series at home against India last year. He played a good knock under pressure at Lord's and seemed like he had turned a corner. 15 days later, he couldn't buy a run against the same opposition in India. He had a good series against Oz this summer and now this. This is the problem with Ravi. Not that he is a bad player. Its also not true that he hasn't performed under pressure. He has in the past. The problem is this inconsistency. I think he deserves the next match and possibly a few T20IS but at some point, selectors will have to take a hard stance. The problem with Ravi is that when he is good, he is good. Even at his best, he won't destroy attacks in the manner that a KP does nor will he score the hundreds with the consistency of a Cook or a Trott. But he will score runs. But at his worst, he is utterly awful which makes it hard to stick with him during his lean run because even in good form, he is good but nothing special but when he is poor, he is really very bad. Not calling for his head yet. He deserves the next match and possibly the T20IS against SA but at some point, the selectors will have to take a hard line on his inconsistency.

A very fair assessment. Particularly with regard to the inconsistency problem.

All I would add is that I think his bowling makes him essential to the ODI team, whether he's in-form with the bat or not. No other English batsman can bowl as well as he can (save for Stokes, but to get him in the side would require a bit of a reshuffle and an improvement in form). Were you to leave him out of the ODI team in India how would you compensate for that? Presumably Taylor would bat at 4?

Agreed that he is crucial to the balance of the side. I would give him more time to find some form. Maybe till the India ODIs. But this inconsistency is the reason why I don't want him to just walk back into the Test side where his bowling is not quite good enough to make up for his inconsistency with the bat.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:But this inconsistency is the reason why I don't want him to just walk back into the Test side where his bowling is not quite good enough to make up for his inconsistency with the bat.

Oh, I agree. His bowling plays no impact on his selection for Test Matches.

I do think that he deserves a Test opportunity though. Should definitely be in the squad, and whether he makes the team probably depends on who opens, whether he can find some form by then and KP.

Shelsey93 wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:But this inconsistency is the reason why I don't want him to just walk back into the Test side where his bowling is not quite good enough to make up for his inconsistency with the bat.

Oh, I agree. His bowling plays no impact on his selection for Test Matches.

I do think that he deserves a Test opportunity though. Should definitely be in the squad, and whether he makes the team probably depends on who opens, whether he can find some form by then and KP.

Definitely not in his current form. I'd prefer to give Taylor a longer run rather than going back to a player who hasn't quite done well in the past and although improved, is still inconsistent with the bat.

Taylor is not in the squad, so if Trott does not make TB, it will not be him getting a spot in the team.

And if Bops can handle pressure to any great extent, is all his poor averages down to not being very good.

Don't really mind Ravi in the Test squad though personally I'd take a horses for courses approach for the India tour and pick Morgan.

Can not see an easy solution for India, i would not have Bops in the Tests and we saw in the UAE how Morgan coped with spin.

He seems ok with orthodox spin though, Skye, that would be my only comment. Ajmal was a mystery that he failed to pick, whereas Ashwin and Ojha offer few surprises.

Still, he could do with getting some game time for a local side there or something prior to the series to show that he can indeed cope in such conditions. As to the practicality of doing so, I don't know. Probably impossible.

Fists of Fury wrote:He seems ok with orthodox spin though, Skye, that would be my only comment. Ajmal was a mystery that he failed to pick, whereas Ashwin and Ojha offer few surprises.

Still, he could do with getting some game time for a local side there or something prior to the series to show that he can indeed cope in such conditions. As to the practicality of doing so, I don't know. Probably impossible.

Good point, and he was'nt the only one to have problems with Ajmal and Rehman. But Rehman and Ajmal of Pak and Ashwin are all right arm off-break bowlers, still not sure if he could cope. Ashwin and Ojha in India also have stunning stats. It will need some hell of a fight from England.

Rehman is a left arm spinner, is he not? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're right though, they do have stunning records. However, take away mystery and spin can be combated effectively with a clear game plan and mindset.

It is imperative that the England batsmen use their feet, and either go forward or back. None of this half forward prodding that consumed us in the UAE.

If you are sure which way the ball will be turning then it should be easier to formulate a game plan against the bowler and to identify your scoring areas then stick to those. It will be tough, no doubt, but it can be done.

For me. You are correct about Rehman.

They will have of course all been working on it, so i do hope for a vast improvement. I just hope they can handle the mental side of it, which many of us all thought they could before the UAE series. PSW, got proven right on that one.

Haha are you talking about the "mentally incapable" post/ It only started as a joke!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Haha are you talking about the "mentally incapable" post/ It only started as a joke!

Yes Joke or not, not many saw it coming and it was one big shock to ones system, especially given Englands recent form.

Most of us thought that this team was that extra bit special and could win anywhere.

Interesting article on Bopara recently been put on cricinfo.

However, one of the major debates this season has been whether England are too wedded to picking bowlers because of their batting skills and the reverse situation is quickly coming to the fore about Bopara.

So true.

For the Odi at TB;

Cook
Kieswetter
Bell
Bopara
Morgan
Bairstow
Woakes
Tredwell
Dernbach
Anderson
Finn.

skyeman wrote:For the Odi at TB;

Cook
Kieswetter
Bell
Bopara
Morgan
Bairstow
Woakes
Tredwell
Dernbach
Anderson
Finn.

Bell has shone this summer as an opener - why move him?

amanuensis wrote:

skyeman wrote:For the Odi at TB;

Cook
Kieswetter
Bell
Bopara
Morgan
Bairstow
Woakes
Tredwell
Dernbach
Anderson
Finn.

Bell has shone this summer as an opener - why move him?

I did not want to, but who else could be a viable option at three.

Because someone has to play 3. frankly there isnt a right answer if Trotts out.
Not sure Id want keisweter opening, it would make Bopara the de facto 3 anyway.

Bringing in Taylor should be considered, although his international record is hardly ..good.

With Bopara isnt this the ame problem England have has since ..well pretty much always? Most good international sides have at leat one genuine batsman who can regulalry be relied to bowl ...maybe not 10 overs but gives that extra option. Bopara does that, what he doesnt do is justify a place a a batsman on results ( just "potential")
Hes no Shane Watson/ Jacque kallis, Chuck Norris

England keep winning though.

skyeman wrote:

amanuensis wrote:

skyeman wrote:For the Odi at TB;

Cook
Kieswetter
Bell
Bopara
Morgan
Bairstow
Woakes
Tredwell
Dernbach
Anderson
Finn.

Bell has shone this summer as an opener - why move him?

I did not want to, but who else could be a viable option at three.

Cook?

But Taylor is not in the squad, and i don't think they will go down that path for the last game anyway.

amanuensis wrote:

skyeman wrote:

amanuensis wrote:

skyeman wrote:For the Odi at TB;

Cook
Kieswetter
Bell
Bopara
Morgan
Bairstow
Woakes
Tredwell
Dernbach
Anderson
Finn.

Bell has shone this summer as an opener - why move him?

I did not want to, but who else could be a viable option at three.

Cook?

Come on be serious.

skyeman wrote:For the Odi at TB;

Cook
Kieswetter
Bell
Bopara
Morgan
Bairstow
Woakes
Tredwell
Dernbach
Anderson
Finn.

I like the look of that side but i would swap Bell and Kieswetter around.

Possibly. It will be interesting to see the team on Wednesday. The No3 is just so pivotal, but they can not lose the series, thus i am hoping that they will be a lot more radical than the norm.

I am just hoping that Cook finds some form in ODI's to be honest. He has not looked very good this series. Such a quality player so i am sure a big score is around the corner

eirebilly wrote:I am just hoping that Cook finds some form in ODI's to be honest. He has not looked very good this series. Such a quality player so i am sure a big score is around the corner

Me too, hopefully a double hundred at Ahmedabad

Id trust Bopara above Keisweter to "do a job" in the top 3. keiswetter is completely unable to play to englands plan that has served them so well in recent games, at least Bopara i theoretically capable of batting sensibly.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Id trust Bopara above Keisweter to "do a job" in the top 3. keiswetter is completely unable to play to englands plan that has served them so well in recent games, at least Bopara i theoretically capable of batting sensibly.

Frig me, i thought you and i were the biggest bops doubters. Never thought that i would hear that from you of all peeps.

I shall of course keep on my line, that Bops is just not good enough for England even with the bowling option.

Why settle for second best.

skyeman wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Id trust Bopara above Keisweter to "do a job" in the top 3. keiswetter is completely unable to play to englands plan that has served them so well in recent games, at least Bopara i theoretically capable of batting sensibly.

Frig me, i thought you and i were the biggest bops doubters. Never thought that i would hear that from you pf all peeps.

I shall of course keep on my line, that Bops is just not good enough for England even with the bowling option.

Why settle for second best.

hes still a better bat than Keiswetter though, at least in an opening/anchor role which is what England are looking to replace.
Putting keiswetter in the top 3 fundamentally changes their gameplan.

I certainly am in the boparasceptic camp, but theres no way hes not going to get picked for the next ODI , especially when you look at everyone whos missing. If Taylor isnt getting called up I just dont see who else they can put in the top 3 (Morgan???)
Doesnt mean it inspires me with confidence, I just dont see any option that isnt more not good.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

skyeman wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Id trust Bopara above Keisweter to "do a job" in the top 3. keiswetter is completely unable to play to englands plan that has served them so well in recent games, at least Bopara i theoretically capable of batting sensibly.

Frig me, i thought you and i were the biggest bops doubters. Never thought that i would hear that from you pf all peeps.

I shall of course keep on my line, that Bops is just not good enough for England even with the bowling option.

Why settle for second best.

hes still a better bat than Keiswetter though, at least in an opening/anchor role which is what England are looking to replace.
Putting keiswetter in the top 3 fundamentally changes their gameplan.

I certainly am in the boparasceptic camp, but theres no way hes not going to get picked for the next ODI , especially when you look at everyone whos missing. If Taylor isnt getting called up I just dont see who else they can put in the top 3 (Morgan???)
Doesnt mean it inspires me with confidence, I just dont see any option that isnt more not good.

Fair enough. But of course i know he will play, it's why he was in my team selection.

Sorry, that was short and sweet

I don't see any issue with playing Bairstow at 3. He can score very quickly and is a good finisher but he can play himself in and save his wicket just as well. With the more careful opening pair, the number 3 doesn't need to be a Trott type. Same goes for SA, AbdV should be at 3.

I read that a few posters are suggesting that Morgen get back into the test side on the back of his performances so far in this ODI series. I really think that would be a backward step.

Really rate Morgan in limited over cricket but i just dont ever think he will be a very good test batsman.