Could this be the year the Scarlets planning all comes to fruitition...?

First topic message reminder :

Jonathan Davies was keen to suggest they are looking a tidy team this year with their new recruits, new management and their young stars maturing nicely...!

Could this be their year...?

Could they win the double..?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:drsambo

7 HC finalists from last season started in that Leinster team!

Nope 2 did - Strauss and Nacewa.

Always there to back me up dodger, thats why i love ye.

Actually it's 7!

Heinke Van der Merwe
Devin Toner
Shane Jennings,
Isaac Boss,
Ian Madigan,
Strauss
Isa Nacewa

All were in the matchday squad in last seasons HC final, all received a winners medal, and all started V Scarlets!!!

Disagree. Blame shouldn't be spread just for the sake of it. The forwards may not have made saints of themselves that game but when you're ahead and you have the ball with a couple of minutes left to go you protect possession until time's up. I'd have thought that goes without saying and under those circumstances applies against any team, let alone against a SH side on their turf where you haven't won since the sixties!

If Priestland had abided by this we'd have broken the deadlock and would now be sitting pretty leading up to the Lions tour. What part of that notion he doesn't understand I just don't know! The forwards might've made errors but what Priestland did was beyond an error, it was suicide and on the day it cost us.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Actually it's 7!

Heinke Van der Merwe
Devin Toner
Shane Jennings,
Isaac Boss,
Ian Madigan,
Strauss
Isa Nacewa

All were in the matchday squad in last seasons HC final, all received a winners medal, and all started V Scarlets!!!

Quite the spin bluesman, they were all on the bench in the final bar Strauss and Nacewa who were the only first choice players against Scarlets, but hey ho if it makes you feel better spin away.

Knowsit17 wrote:Disagree. Blame shouldn't be spread just for the sake of it. The forwards may not have made saints of themselves that game but when you're ahead and you have the ball with a couple of minutes left to go you protect possession until time's up. I'd have thought that goes without saying and under those circumstances applies against any team, let alone against a SH side on their turf where you haven't won since the sixties!

If Priestland had abided by this we'd have broken the deadlock and would now be sitting pretty leading up to the Lions tour. What part of that notion he doesn't understand I just don't know! The forwards might've made errors but what Priestland did was beyond an error, it was suicide and on the day it cost us.

Spot on in the bold part mate. Can't believe our forwards didn't do it, twas their job to after all, instead they put our FH under ridiculous pressure, when he had 2 men outside him against 4 Australians. What a marvellous plan that was.

Knowsit

I will disagree with you whole heartedly, when your in your own half and have double figures of your own team ahead of you and Oz forwards baring down on you you kick deep and allow your team back in the game!

If Preistland had held onto the ball he would've been turned over or pinged for holding on less than 40 meters out, his options were kick long and set the defencive line or take the risk of giving the game losing penalty away!!!

If you want to put blame on anyone it was the 2 numpties who gave silly penalties away on the trot!

Regardless, the size and physicality is on a lower level for some of the backs, granted they are young but so is North

Dodger

There is no spin, they were all matchday players, and they were all first teamers. If you truely beleive it's the starting XV who are first choicers then thats up to you, but in every team Ive coached, or will coach the 22 are all as important as each other, either as impact players, set changes, or utility.

If you are selected for the first team squad in the HC final you should be able to account yourself better in a lowly Rabo game.

IMO I gave the game to Scarlets by 7-10 points because of the younger boys in midfeild, Scarlets were by far the better pack also!

Since when are people on the bench first teamers?? Garbage mate. A player that spends the whole season on the bench and gets 20 minutes of rugby cause someone gets injured is a first teamer?

Like I said - quite the spin.

rugbydreamer wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:Disagree. Blame shouldn't be spread just for the sake of it. The forwards may not have made saints of themselves that game but when you're ahead and you have the ball with a couple of minutes left to go you protect possession until time's up. I'd have thought that goes without saying and under those circumstances applies against any team, let alone against a SH side on their turf where you haven't won since the sixties!

If Priestland had abided by this we'd have broken the deadlock and would now be sitting pretty leading up to the Lions tour. What part of that notion he doesn't understand I just don't know! The forwards might've made errors but what Priestland did was beyond an error, it was suicide and on the day it cost us.

Spot on in the bold part mate. Can't believe our forwards didn't do it, twas their job to after all, instead they put our FH under ridiculous pressure, when he had 2 men outside him against 4 Australians. What a marvellous plan that was.

Just watched it again on youtube and it's true, he was in a precarious position. Still not decided for or against but I'll shut up for now

See now even the name 'first teamer' is in reference to the first team, not the starting XV, it's a whole different kettle of fish!!

The first team is everyone involved in the matchday squad, and IMO includes coaches, physio's and backroom staff who all contribute to the win/loss!

Go and find anyone involved in professionall rugby, I would be disgraced by any of the professionals I know and work with who deem the starting XV are the only 'first teamers'!!

Knowsit

I think thats the beauty of the sport though, there is no right answer, Howley can blame Preistland all he likes but I know plenty of very knowledgable professional coach's who will disagree with him!

......ok then so Leinster had 15 of their first team missing for the game against Scarlets - fair enough.

Can't it just be concluded that Leinster were far from the starting side that romped through last season but were still strong nonetheless? Their starting XV wasn't at all bad with the likes of Nacewa, Madigan, Van Der Merwe, Toner, Jennings etc still high profile players. Scarlets' starters were slightly depleted too, they just had a stronger bench.

I'm not knocking leinster, they feilded a weakened team, but they didn't feild an academy team, and 3rd string team or even a 2nd string team, they played a 3rd of their first team and fringe/development players.

I'm not a Scarlets fan but they have to have credit for trouncing a team that included 7 HC finalists!

Knowsit

I just rewatched it too.... now I'm on the fence a little.

The pack shouldn't have been over commited to the ruck, and when they had won it pulled out and offered more PnG options, Webb didn't have any real options but RP, but then he could've slowed things down and directed the forwards, and RP actually had 2 men either side of him, although they looked disinterested in carrying it up with no forwards anywhere near.

If I had to put blame on someone I'd go with whoever was captain, direct the team, know how longs left and close the game out accordingly, not lie on the floor watching RP kick the ball.

Even after the kick there was no need for the 2 shoddy penalties!!

I think the other thing people have to take into context with the Oz 2nd game is that Wales were getting pinged all over the place at the breakdown, and also struggling to stop Oz turning the ball over - as a result it would have been dangerous to keep the ball around the halfway, especially with most of the forwards engaged.

Nope, a year or two too early. Leinster start slow, Scarlets are a very promising team and deserve a lot of credit for their win but I don't think they will win a trophy this year. Treviso beat Leinster in the first game last year I think, they went on to great things last year, Scarlets are far better but this is the first game and people are making way too much of it.

To answer the title question, I really hope so!

To think they'll do the double is a bit much though. Before last weekends game I hoped for top 4 place. We were close again last year and played some good rugby at the tail end of the season to give us a shout at the playoffs. It was the inconsistency that cost us throughout the season. The result has changed nothing really. We need to target a top four place, hopefully a top 2 for the home tie. That's our target and what we should be putting all if our effort into. The HC may be the one everyone wants but realistically we haven't got the strength in depth needed to be contenders for both and our group is a nightmare as it is.

So, could this be the year to get into the pro 12 final? Yes of course it could.
Could this be the year to win a double? Maybe when we can start finishing in the top 4 each year like Leinster or Leicester we can have these ambitions. For now it's not likely as much as I'd want it to happen.

Mushroom: yes, we're the current Six Nations champions, but we could easily have lost to Ireland first up and if it hadn't been for Courtney Lawes's generosity we'd have lost to England too. We earned a hard-fought Grand Slam but let's not pretend we were streets ahead of the competition.

And in any case, this season's tournament will be the one that determines Gatland's likely selection, not last season's.

Thomond wrote:Nope, a year or two too early. Leinster start slow, Scarlets are a very promising team and deserve a lot of credit for their win but I don't think they will win a trophy this year. Treviso beat Leinster in the first game last year I think, they went on to great things last year, Scarlets are far better but this is the first game and people are making way too much of it.

Ospreys 27 3. Treviso loss was the 3rd game the previous year.

overlordofthewest wrote:To answer the title question, I really hope so!

To think they'll do the double is a bit much though. Before last weekends game I hoped for top 4 place. We were close again last year and played some good rugby at the tail end of the season to give us a shout at the playoffs. It was the inconsistency that cost us throughout the season. The result has changed nothing really. We need to target a top four place, hopefully a top 2 for the home tie. That's our target and what we should be putting all if our effort into. The HC may be the one everyone wants but realistically we haven't got the strength in depth needed to be contenders for both and our group is a nightmare as it is.

So, could this be the year to get into the pro 12 final? Yes of course it could.
Could this be the year to win a double? Maybe when we can start finishing in the top 4 each year like Leinster or Leicester we can have these ambitions. For now it's not likely as much as I'd want it to happen.

I agree that we need to target the Rabo, and hopefully top two places. I was thinking the double could be on, we have the potential to feidla pretty decent side for the LV= with the likes of Rob Evans, Myhill, Samson Lee, Dan Thomas, Jordan Williams etc alongside the likes of Timani, Manu, Earle and the other Saffers that are coming over later.

Only 2 teams beat us last year in all comps.

I am predicting top 4 for Scarlets. Perhaps at the expense of Munster.

Ulster Scarlets Leinster and Ospreys for me. But it's early days yet. Munster have a habit of proving their doubters wrong.

JML,

I think Ulster have a better starting team than Munster but don't have the depth that Munster have.

red_stag wrote:JML,

I think Ulster have a better starting team than Munster but don't have the depth that Munster have.

You could well be right. It also depends on who is out of the HC. If one of Ulster and Munster are out and the other in. That will have a bearing.

I'm hoping that the Scarlets progress at the expense of Clermont.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Mushroom: yes, we're the current Six Nations champions, but we could easily have lost to Ireland first up and if it hadn't been for Courtney Lawes's generosity we'd have POSSIBLY DRAWN WITH England too. We earned a hard-fought Grand Slam but let's not pretend we were streets ahead of the competition.

And in any case, this season's tournament will be the one that determines Gatland's likely selection, not last season's.

Corrected..!

Beating a team with 7 HC winners in it doesnt mean youre suddenly good enough to beat one with 22 HC winners in it though.

No doubt Scarlets have continued there steps forward though, or at least in the backs., The real questions will be asked of them in the winter when things get slower and heavier. Have they got the grunt?

I certainly wouldnt see them as HC finalists material. Rabo playoff and LV double a more realistic aim

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Mushroom: yes, we're the current Six Nations champions, but we could easily have lost to Ireland first up and if it hadn't been for Courtney Lawes's generosity we'd have POSSIBLY DRAWN WITH England too. We earned a hard-fought Grand Slam but let's not pretend we were streets ahead of the competition.

And in any case, this season's tournament will be the one that determines Gatland's likely selection, not last season's.

Corrected..!

Er, no. Did you read the bit about Courtney Lawes? We were trailing when Scott Williams scored his try.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Beating a team with 7 HC winners in it doesnt mean youre suddenly good enough to beat one with 22 HC winners in it though.

No doubt Scarlets have continued there steps forward though, or at least in the backs., The real questions will be asked of them in the winter when things get slower and heavier. Have they got the grunt?

I certainly wouldnt see them as HC finalists material. Rabo playoff and LV double a more realistic aim

PSW - we have not made any improvements to our backs, and if anything we have weakened our backs (Steve Jones out - Gareth Owen in, Sean Lamont out - Kris Phillips in). It is out forwards that we have been flashing the cash on this summer (namely tighthead and lock) by bringing in Saffers, and an Argentinia.

red_stag wrote:JML,

I think Ulster have a better starting team than Munster but don't have the depth that Munster have.

Outside of the half backs that is changing big time at Ulster and could be questionable now

9 and 10 remain our achilles heel with Pienaer being irreplaceable.

The fixtures favour us though - we should have 4 from the first 6 and 5 is possible.
A flying start is a big big help

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Mushroom: yes, we're the current Six Nations champions, but we could easily have lost to Ireland first up and if it hadn't been for Courtney Lawes's generosity we'd have POSSIBLY DRAWN WITH England too. We earned a hard-fought Grand Slam but let's not pretend we were streets ahead of the competition.

And in any case, this season's tournament will be the one that determines Gatland's likely selection, not last season's.

Corrected..!

Er, no. Did you read the bit about Courtney Lawes? We were trailing when Scott Williams scored his try.

No it was 12 all and we never looked the weaker team..

Refresh your memory

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/25/six-nations-england-wales-mbm?cat=sport&type=article

geoff998rugby wrote:

red_stag wrote:JML,

I think Ulster have a better starting team than Munster but don't have the depth that Munster have.

Outside of the half backs that is changing big time at Ulster and could be questionable now

9 and 10 remain our achilles heel with Pienaer being irreplaceable.

The fixtures favour us though - we should have 4 from the first 6 and 5 is possible.
A flying start is a big big help

And considering Leinster are always in the Rabbo Mix come the business end of the season I'd say that any win over them is an incredibly valuable start to the season.

Something most teams won't manage.

Certaintly playing Leinster early on is a big plus - it has been, for some years, the time they are at their most vulnerable

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Mushroom: yes, we're the current Six Nations champions, but we could easily have lost to Ireland first up and if it hadn't been for Courtney Lawes's generosity we'd have POSSIBLY DRAWN WITH England too. We earned a hard-fought Grand Slam but let's not pretend we were streets ahead of the competition.

And in any case, this season's tournament will be the one that determines Gatland's likely selection, not last season's.

Corrected..!

Er, no. Did you read the bit about Courtney Lawes? We were trailing when Scott Williams scored his try.

No it was 12 all and we never looked the weaker team..

Refresh your memory

http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/feb/25/six-nations-england-wales-mbm?cat=sport&type=article

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. If you don't realise how close we were to losing that game, how devoid of ideas we were after Jamie Roberts went off injured, then it's no surprise you're trumpeting the Scarlets as potential double winners after one game of the domestic season.

LP

I'm trumpeting Scarlets as a potential success after the way they have improved to become the side they are after about four seasons of gradual progress.

I'm not going to argue with you over a game we won last year but from what I remember, and from the link above that might refresh your memory, Wales missed several try scoring opportunities and Farrell kicked well. Wales scored a try we won.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Mushroom: yes, ......

Corrected..!

Er, ......

Refresh........

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. If you don't realise how close we were to losing that game, how devoid of ideas we were after Jamie Roberts went off injured, then it's no surprise you're trumpeting the Scarlets as potential double winners after one game of the domestic season.

Lord in fairness you can only take the results as they are, and we did beat Ireland, and we were only really at risk of drawing with the English.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Mushroom: yes, ......

Corrected..!

Er, ......

Refresh........

This is the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. If you don't realise how close we were to losing that game, how devoid of ideas we were after Jamie Roberts went off injured, then it's no surprise you're trumpeting the Scarlets as potential double winners after one game of the domestic season.

Lord in fairness you can only take the results as they are, and we did beat Ireland, and we were only really at risk of drawing with the English.

Exactly..!

We were 12-6 down at one point, I will concede that, but that was about five minutes into the second half but we managed to draw 12 all with our flyhalf in the sin bin.

Spiderman, my original comment was in response to a poster who was going on about last season's Grand Slam as if we were head and shoulders above the opposition, which just isn't true - the tighness of some of the games reinforces that. I don't like the rewriting of history, especially when it's on forums like this where people are waiting for results to go against us so they can wave those kinds of posts in our face.

Luckless - ah I see, gotta be honest I was too lazy to trawl through the whole thread to find the original post by Welshmushroom. I do agree with you that sometimes it is better to be honest about where you are rather than trying to build yourselves up, as that only leads to a painful fall. I have a feeling that there may well be some of that for Scarlets supoorters if they start to believe the hype at the moment.

All the Scarlets fans here seem to have their feet on the ground, in fairness.

I don't think there is any hype about the Scarlets. But I do think, (repeating this for the umpteenth time to clarify my initial point), that the Scarlets are very likely to reap the rewards of all the good things put in place over the last few years.

Deservedly so...!

I don't think many people would begrudge them it either, Maes. They play such an attractive brand of rugby when they're on song.

maestegmafia wrote:I don't think there is any hype about the Scarlets. But I do think, (repeating this for the umpteenth time to clarify my initial point), that the Scarlets are very likely to reap the rewards of all the good things put in place over the last few years.

Deservedly so...!

Relax mate, not blaming you at all. More like the Jonathan Davies comments on Scrum V, and then regeritated (can't spell posh word for puked up) again on the Beeb site, and then in different versions on the Rabo site and in papers etc etc. I see your point and agree (although it may be two seasons too late IMO) the Scarlets are looking like giving their fans a decent future to make up for the dire year or two between the HEC semi, and Nigel Davies finding his feet as a head coach.

No worries SS

Another convincing performance though.. And plenty of tries

Some strange comments about the Scarlets on this thread!

They were praised last season for developing young Welsh players rather than buying in NWQ journeymen. They are still getting praise, despite completly changing their strategy by releasing three Welsh Qualified locks and replacing them with two Saffas and Argie and an Aussie! Add to that the Saffa prop and that represents a big departure from their grow your own strategy.

The Scarlets weakness this season will be their props, they have been stuffed in the scrum both games this season and they have not yet come up against a first choice strong scrum! The Saffa they have recruited will have to be pretty special or they will be going into the Hieheken with Phil John and Manu as first choice props! It is looking also to be a big problem for the Scarlets, that these marquee signings will not be available for the first two months of the season.

Finally, I am astonished that there are still posters on this site blaming Priestland for the second test loss! Priestland's action to kick long was spot on, given the situation he was in. The only questions are: Why he was given the ball in that situation? Any why the numpty (singular) gave away those two stupid penalties! Why is it when Wales lose that it is ALLWAYS the number 10s fault, in some fans minds?

Seagultaf wrote:Some strange comments about the Scarlets on this thread!

They were praised last season for developing young Welsh players rather than buying in NWQ journeymen. They are still getting praise, despite completly changing their strategy by releasing three Welsh Qualified locks and replacing them with two Saffas and Argie and an Aussie! Add to that the Saffa prop and that represents a big departure from their grow your own strategy.

The Scarlets weakness this season will be their props, they have been stuffed in the scrum both games this season and they have not yet come up against a first choice strong scrum! The Saffa they have recruited will have to be pretty special or they will be going into the Hieheken with Phil John and Manu as first choice props! It is looking also to be a big problem for the Scarlets, that these marquee signings will not be available for the first two months of the season.

Finally, I am astonished that there are still posters on this site blaming Priestland for the second test loss! Priestland's action to kick long was spot on, given the situation he was in. The only questions are: Why he was given the ball in that situation? Any why the numpty (singular) gave away those two stupid penalties! Why is it when Wales lose that it is ALLWAYS the number 10s fault, in some fans minds?

Some strange comments on this post - the Scarlets have a backline made almost entirely of homegrown talent, to go along with it's homegrown backrow. We were being slammed last year because our front 5 couldn't provide a platform for the backs, and that they couldn't secure ball in the set piece. So as a result (rather than carry on with the situation as it was), we brought in/promoted from academy, some promising WQ players but also brought in NWQ players who are better than the WQ players we let go (in the lock positions), and also gave us depth and options. In the prop positions we were faced with our 2 1st choice props retiring (big loss and big shame), so we promoted R Jones (home grown WQ), Rob Evans (home grown WQ) and S Lee (homegrown WQ) while realising that we are short in the prop department and there is little available in Wales with experience (and that we couldn't out bid Bath/Toulon for James/Jenkins) we had to go for a NWQ player, and was very close to getting Cilliers, the SA rising star. We also let go 2 NWQ players (Ionghi, and brought in Phillips, and Gilbert).

While according to you we've had a complete departure from homegrown players to signing NWQ players, against Glasgow we still only had 2 NWQ players in the starting line up and another 2 on the bench - as Lee is still young and we'd just lost R Thomas it would have been suicidal to get rid or Manu/Edwards and Timani had out performed all the WQ locks we let go last year.

Why would we be going into the HC with Phil John as 1st choice? We have R Jones as our 1st choice LH, while Manu/Adriaanse will probably switch over if Rhodri is injured.

They are only not available for the 1st 2 months of this season (except Vallejos) because we just missed out on our 1st choice targets (Cilliers and Eaton) which were worth fighting for, and when we tied up the deal for Adriaanse he was already involved in the Currie Cup - however we will have Earle, Ball and Snyman in the squad next week I believe, and are just waiting Vallejos and Adriaanse to come - 3 out of 5 isn't devastating.

Agree totally with your last paragraph, though it seems a little out of place on a Scarlets thread

Seagultaf wrote:The Scarlets weakness this season will be their props, they have been stuffed in the scrum both games this season and they have not yet come up against a first choice strong scrum! The Saffa they have recruited will have to be pretty special or they will be going into the Heineken with Phil John and Manu as first choice props! It is looking also to be a big problem for the Scarlets, that these marquee signings will not be available for the first two months of the season.

Doesn't it show how well the Scarlets are doing to play such good rugby now without any big name signings...?

Won both their first games pretty convincingly and with only three NWQs involved. One in the second row, one on the bench and one as head coach.

Scarlets are an ambitious club, their academies produce a fantastic amount of young talent. They will continue to do so

Yup the Scarlets have got some exciting props and locks coming through, who should be in the 1st team in 2-3 years.

Smirnoffpriest, I agree with many of your comments:

The Scarlets backline is entirely local Welsh talent and of a very high quality.

The loss of both Iestyn and Rollerskates was a major blow, despite many derogatory comments neither would have looked out of place in the Wales side and we can only wonder why others, such as Andrews and Yapp were chosen ahead of them.

The Scarlets front 5 has been weak, but Reed was good enough to play for Wales, and looked very promising when he was fit. Day had a great season last year and is currently 1st choice at Bath. Welsh was a bit of an enigma, frequently looked fantastic but not one of ND’s favourites and can’t now get into the Chiefs side. But they were all locally produced (some by a rather circuitous route) the imports are yet to prove to be any better, although Earle has looked good in his first two starts. Bringing in 4 overseas locks was clearly a major departure from their “grow your own” strategy!

As for the props, the Scarlets lost two top quality performers but have only bought in one overseas fringe player. Rhodri Jones looked very promising last season, but has not impressed in his two starts to date getting mullered in virtually every scrum. Phil John seems to improve things when he comes on so (on the basis that a props job is to scrumage) he must have claims on the first choice jersey.

I understood that Ball was injured and the other three NWQ players will not be available until some time in October. They will then need to blend into the squad so the PYS faithful may not see them until the end of October or even November. Until then the Scarlets will have a scrum that appears to have only one gear (reverse) and whist they have two great wins under their belts, I suspect their opponents, particularly those with a strong scrum, will target this weakness in future games.