Yuvraj Singh's comeback - sentiment over common sense?

First topic message reminder :

A lot is being made in India of Yuvraj's fairytale return to fitness and Indian colours.

But there are no logical grounds on which he should be in the squad. He hasn't faced a single delivery in a match situation since going through such a tough ordeal, and has said that he only feels ready to play in T20. Surely he should be easing back in through domestic cricket and getting back into form before playing international cricket.

Part of why I argue this is for his own sake. I see it as highly unlikely that he can succeed in the World T20 without any cricket behind him whatsoever in near enough 12 months. What happens then?

Yes. But if Chand has a good tour of NZ and a good season, he is a good shout for the Tests against Australia. Agreed on Mukund's technique, though id he does well in NZ against a fairly strong NZ A attack, then that would be an indicator that he has improved his technique. Chand is the better of the two IMO. A good tour with the A side should do him a lot of good.

On possible openers....for India

1)Rahane has the technique and tempermanet of an opener....he started I believe and played quite a bit of Ranji as an opener before moving down the order...and moved back up agains last season to open in a few games.
He opens in Duleep and Irani games also....he knows that his best chance in is as an opener and he is being kept as a standby

In ODIs...which is a measure of inning building capabilty these days he has done well as an opner...including a near 100 against Eng. So Rahane is our best bet to open and almost immediately in place of Sehwag, whose eye is gone.

2) Gambhir stays for now as an opener...he has age on his side...solid tempermanet and convinces me of his ability to return...he showed glimpses of coming back to form in aus and in the last test against NZ.......but he's gotta work very hard and conciously on his feet movement and keeping out the glide down to thirdman stroke.

3) Chand is too raw....he needs a season or two of Ranji and in the grind of Ranji learn the art of building innings...something that u-19s don't teach.

4) Mukund has a simple but fundamental flaw in his technique...cannot present a staright bat even when defending....
he brings the bat down in an arch pushing towards cover / square cover even defensively pushing.
when driving a staright ball...he naturaly dirves towards cover / square cover.
this means means at the point of impact of bat with ball......there is a gap between bat and pad....and his bat is angled and not presenting the full face.
he gets away in Ranji where the ball doesn't seam all day not the pace of bowling is very high.
when confronted with pitches where ball is moving all day...such as in Eng...or faster bolwes above 85mph........this little unnoticable chink at the Ranji level....widens into a huge crack......and no wonder he gets clean bowled so often.....to straight deliveries swinging / seaming in to him just a shade.
Broad and Rampaul having exploited this weakness.

And he is rather advanced in his career to be able to makde changes.

5) Mukund's chennai partner Vijay was far more classical straight bat....and he gave a good account of himself early on against touring Aussies......until he decided to make himself more suited to and saleable in IPL.
His game transforemd he played a few blistering IPL innings....but as a side effect...lost his patience in tests.
was getting out too frequently trying to hit on the rise / force pace....when he should be shouldering arms as an opener.

Between Mukund and Vijay...I would still back Vijay.....he is more corrigible than Mukund....because his defense is ( or used to be) tighter.....a very key trait required in top 3 batters.

Beyond these Vineet Saxena's life time best Ranji final epic double hundred notwithstanding where many think he outperfroemed his abilities, neitehr age is on his side nor rest of his last 2 seasons have been special.

Chopra is past the hill...

Uthappa opens for karnataka might make a comeback as an opener cum reserve keeper in T20s / ODIs....but Dhoni doesn't like anyone who can keep wickets
hence Ojha, Bisla, Kaarthik, Parthiv, Uthappa and Rayadu...aren't likely to get a run....because they all eitehr full time or stand-by WKs

The only otehr guy who reportedly has the techqniue and style and strokes is last U-19 winning team's star and UP's current opner Tanmay Srivastava.

However he needs to have a bumper-super-duper Ranji season, and break into the A side first....and then deliver on A-tours......he has age and time on his side.

for the next 12 months I would stick to Gambhr and Rahane...but move Sehwag down asap if I had a say.

Vijay heading towards a triple....in a highly one sided game.
Menaria, Chopra, Rituraj and Pankaj's absence has rendered Rajsthan highly incompetitve

I don't think Karthik and co do not make it to the national side because Dhoni has a problem with backup batters who can keep, it is just that they are not good enough or consistent enough. Rayudu had the ICL connection, problems with administrators, and lack of consistency. The first 2 shouldn't much of an issue, but the 3rd is. A first class average of 42 is criminal underperformance for a player of his obvious ability and his list A stats aren't anything special either. Karthik and Patel can't keep, and Karthik's batting lacks consistency. Patel is a limited batsman who improved a lot, but not good enough to gain a national place as a batsman.

Naman Ojha has decent stats as a wicket keeper batsman, but again nowhere near good enough to take a specialist batting place for himself in any format. Karthik's international record speaks for itself, averaging 27 after playing 23 test matches and a similar average after playing 52 ODIs.

Uthappa too hasn't taken his chances as an average of 27 from 38 matches suggests. His FC record is nowhere nere that of people like Rahane, Vijay, Mukund, or even Rohit Sharma.
He could be a good finisher in T-20 though, and perhaps is due one last opportunity in that position in the format.

KP_fan wrote:On possible openers....for India

1)Rahane has the technique and tempermanet of an opener....he started I believe and played quite a bit of Ranji as an opener before moving down the order...and moved back up agains last season to open in a few games.
He opens in Duleep and Irani games also....he knows that his best chance in is as an opener and he is being kept as a standby

In ODIs...which is a measure of inning building capabilty these days he has done well as an opner...including a near 100 against Eng. So Rahane is our best bet to open and almost immediately in place of Sehwag, whose eye is gone.

2) Gambhir stays for now as an opener...he has age on his side...solid tempermanet and convinces me of his ability to return...he showed glimpses of coming back to form in aus and in the last test against NZ.......but he's gotta work very hard and conciously on his feet movement and keeping out the glide down to thirdman stroke.

3) Chand is too raw....he needs a season or two of Ranji and in the grind of Ranji learn the art of building innings...something that u-19s don't teach.

4) Mukund has a simple but fundamental flaw in his technique...cannot present a staright bat even when defending....
he brings the bat down in an arch pushing towards cover / square cover even defensively pushing.
when driving a staright ball...he naturaly dirves towards cover / square cover.
this means means at the point of impact of bat with ball......there is a gap between bat and pad....and his bat is angled and not presenting the full face.
he gets away in Ranji where the ball doesn't seam all day not the pace of bowling is very high.
when confronted with pitches where ball is moving all day...such as in Eng...or faster bolwes above 85mph........this little unnoticable chink at the Ranji level....widens into a huge crack......and no wonder he gets clean bowled so often.....to straight deliveries swinging / seaming in to him just a shade.
Broad and Rampaul having exploited this weakness.

And he is rather advanced in his career to be able to makde changes.

5) Mukund's chennai partner Vijay was far more classical straight bat....and he gave a good account of himself early on against touring Aussies......until he decided to make himself more suited to and saleable in IPL.
His game transforemd he played a few blistering IPL innings....but as a side effect...lost his patience in tests.
was getting out too frequently trying to hit on the rise / force pace....when he should be shouldering arms as an opener.

Between Mukund and Vijay...I would still back Vijay.....he is more corrigible than Mukund....because his defense is ( or used to be) tighter.....a very key trait required in top 3 batters.

Beyond these Vineet Saxena's life time best Ranji final epic double hundred notwithstanding where many think he outperfroemed his abilities, neitehr age is on his side nor rest of his last 2 seasons have been special.

Chopra is past the hill...

Uthappa opens for karnataka might make a comeback as an opener cum reserve keeper in T20s / ODIs....but Dhoni doesn't like anyone who can keep wickets
hence Ojha, Bisla, Kaarthik, Parthiv, Uthappa and Rayadu...aren't likely to get a run....because they all eitehr full time or stand-by WKs

The only otehr guy who reportedly has the techqniue and style and strokes is last U-19 winning team's star and UP's current opner Tanmay Srivastava.

However he needs to have a bumper-super-duper Ranji season, and break into the A side first....and then deliver on A-tours......he has age and time on his side.

for the next 12 months I would stick to Gambhr and Rahane...but move Sehwag down asap if I had a say.

Hard to disagree with that. Your assessment of Mukund's technique, in particular is spot on.

I don't think Karthik and co do not make it to the national side because Dhoni has a problem with backup batters who can keep,

i am afraid ....we are not just not on the same page.......but not even on the same planet.

it is just that they are not good enough or consistent enough.

the way Parthiv and Kaarthik get thrown in the most difficult condtions in a match and dumped without a run.......clearly shows they are not given a consistent run...no whre close to jadeja, raina or rohit.

Rayudu had the ICL connection, problems with administrators, and lack of consistency. The first 2 shouldn't much of an issue, but the 3rd is. A first class average of 42 is criminal underperformance for a player of his obvious ability and his list A stats aren't anything special either.

that was forgiven, forgotten, amnesty given..that is how Rayadu is playing IPL and India-A games.
IPL scoring rates , shot selection and handling pressure situation is a measure of T20 potential and not statistics based on averages.
b.t.w....do you know what is Raina's FC average.....not diffrent from Rayadu

Raina shouldn't be anywhere near the test squad!!.
Parthiv Patel and Dinesh karthik were tried and tested and found wanting before MSD made his debut. Unlike them, he showed he's one of India's greatest ODI batsmen, one of the best wicket keeping batsmen that this country produced in tests and a decent T-20I batsman as well. Karthik did get more chances even without the pressure of having to keep and he did not take it, as his performance wasn't consistent.
I agree Dhoni could be quite stubborn and conservative at times, but every problem that aflict Indian cricket isn't his problem or responsibility.
Karthik, Patel or Ojha are not good enough to challenge Dhoni as India's wicket keeper in any format of the game, and none of them are good enough with the bactto command a place in the side just for their batting.
Uthappa was given his chances but he didn't take it, not Dhoni's problem.
Rayudu was ones talked up as the next big thing in Indian cricket and the lad has obvious ability, but he has to be more consistnet to make it to the national side. Hope he continue his good work in New Zealand, so that we can forget pampered boys like Rohit Sharma.

Harmeet singh makes a mark with a 4-fer in a big game as Rajasthan sink to a huge inning defeat.
Bisht stood out with anotehr defiant 67 in a lost cause.....should have defnitely caught the eye of the selectors.......because the bowling that he was facing was high quality.

Yes. Good signs.

Hope Harmeet gets a lot more game time with his Ranji side. They have Chavan and Abdullah, but I think Harmeet is someone special, and he should be given greater opportunities, particularly in FC matches. Mumbai can use Abdullah and Chavan in limited over formats but Harmeet has to play more Ranji matches.

Iqbal Abdulla is an important warhorse for Mumbai...he's gonna play in all forms......he is a bit of a bowling allrounder.
Powar is still turning up for Mumbai sometimes....so it's not gonna be easy for him to play all the time.

and they have ankeet chavhan also

He should consider moving to another state...unless they make him the first choice spinner ......but not to a low visibility state like HP.

there should be plenty of takers for him right now

Which group is Maharashtra placed in the Ranji Trophy? Perhaps Harmeet should consider a move in that direction? But then they have Dharekar in their side.

This is the new 3 tiered structure of Ranji Trophy......is as follows.
In principle Harmeet could aim to play for any of the Group A or B teams.....while in groups C there are really the small station minnows against whom the performances won't count for much,

rajasthan and Railways would be teams to look at for a migration as they both encourage outsiders to come in and have tasted Ranji successes in the last decade or so...and neitehr have a top class spinner

Top three teams from Group 'A' and 'B' will qualify for the knock-outs while top two teams from Group C will make it to the last-eight stage to complete the line-up. They will also be promoted for Group 'A' and 'B' next year.



Group 'A': Mumbai, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Railways, Delhi, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Baroda.

Group 'B': Karnataka, Hyderabad, Tamil Nadu, Punjab, Haryana, Saurashtra, Bengal, Odisha and Vidarbha.

Group 'C':Himachal Pradesh, Kerala, Services, Andhra, Tripura, Goa, Jharkhand, Assam, Jammu & Kashmir.

Lets see, perhaps Mumbai will give Harmeet more opportunities. He should come in for Chavan who didn't look special at all.

Agreed. Chavan doesn't look international standard to me.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/duleep-trop ... tlook_news

Sehwag to captain the North Zone in the Duleep Trophy. Gambhir, Virat, Yuvi and Bhajj will play too, in case India don't qualify for the final. Disappointed to see Chand and Mandeep left out.

October schedule has Duleep and Challanger trophies...whihc will be India's preparation for the England series.

there is only the T20 tournament in SA...where top clubs will play...else most of the stars should be seen in duleep and challanger

With 4 IPL teams in the CLT20, a lot of stars are going to miss out on FC cricket. Don't mind Sachin playing the CLT20 though. Playing a bit of T20 cricket might just free him up a bit and get him back into form.

India A (End of Day 1) at 136/4. Play stopped after 36.4 overs. Unmukt - 54, Mukund - 42, Anustup - 4, Mandeep 20. Rayudu 9*, Menaria - 0*

ShankyCricket wrote:India A (End of Day 1) at 136/4. Play stopped after 36.4 overs. Unmukt - 54, Mukund - 42, Anustup - 4, Mandeep 20. Rayudu 9*, Menaria - 0*

yeah.....the test match started.......and Chand does anotehr 54....he has been getting 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s.......and then the middle order collpased.

Looks like from the scores......Chand has good technique to face new ball and temperament to get set....but gives it away without making it count into a big hundred.

He is still young though.

ShankyCricket wrote:He is still young though.

yes and I look at his runs and innings building, new ball facing capabilities from a positive perspective.
he will mature with a full season of Ranji under his belt

Chand's promise is obvious, scoring runs against the new ball in NZ is a good challenge and he's done that with some success so far. Now the greater challenge is to convert the starts that he gets into big hundreds. A test opener will have to score hundreds, big ones at that.
Hopefully he'll be ready to take over from guys like Sehwag in another 2 years or so.

msp83 wrote:Chand's promise is obvious, scoring runs against the new ball in NZ is a good challenge and he's done that with some success so far. Now the greater challenge is to convert the starts that he gets into big hundreds. A test opener will have to score hundreds, big ones at that.
Hopefully he'll be ready to take over from guys like Sehwag in another 2 years or so.

Exactly....now I see in Rahane and Chand two guys ready to step in to the opening slot.....I don't think sehwag will last 2 years.......thouhg

If he has a good season and the openers continue to struggle, I won't rule him out for the Oz Tests.

The Australia series, I think will be a touch too soon for young Chand. Hope 'Slashy and Grumpy'(Andrew Hughes of cricinfo Page 2) would do the job for some more time.

msp83 wrote:The Australia series, I think will be a touch too soon for young Chand. Hope 'Slashy and Grumpy'(Andrew Hughes of cricinfo Page 2) would do the job for some more time.

Chand is in the Ranji probables for Delhi...but infortunately sisnce he has not played Ranji extemsively last season he is not in Duleep Trophy.

Incidentally all possible replacement captains for Dhoni are from Delhi....Sehwag, Gambhir and Kohli

Sehwag is a possible replacement captain? Now you can't be serious. He is a sh** captain.

BTW Chand is not in Duleep Trophy because of NZ tour, I thought?

Sehwag and Gambhir will have to first find the big runs in test before any captaincy considerations. Kohli has to be the next in line replacing Dhoni, but that has to be later, as the team first has to navigate the waters of transition

ShankyCricket wrote:Sehwag is a possible replacement captain? Now you can't be serious. He is a sh** captain.

BTW Chand is not in Duleep Trophy because of NZ tour, I thought?

I don't consider Sehwag captaincy material......he is too fickle.
BUT his name is often pushed and I won't be surprised if Dhoni takes a break or is injured....in a seniortiy driven compromise he gets to captain a few matches

You are right Ind-A is playing the second test coinciding with Duleep Trophy

msp83 wrote:Sehwag and Gambhir will have to first find the big runs in test before any captaincy considerations. Kohli has to be the next in line replacing Dhoni, but that has to be later, as the team first has to navigate the waters of transition

Gambhir will get runs....his temperament is very strong.

in the last test in Australia he got a near 90...and in the triangular with Aus and SL he got a few 90s...and since then he has scored runs in ODIs....it's a matter of time.

and given Dhoni's lack of interest in tests...preference for the shorter form and his work load...it would have been ideal for selectors to put Gambhir in-charge of tests.....but that didn't happen for a numbe rof political reasons...even though Amarnath and one more selector wanted that........amarnath it is heard might have lost his job in the process.

so now we are stuck with Dhoni and hope he can deliver in tests in realtively more preferable conditions.........wallop Eng and Aus...and take us to the No.2 spot in tests...whihc is realistically within grasp

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Sehwag and Gambhir will have to first find the big runs in test before any captaincy considerations. Kohli has to be the next in line replacing Dhoni, but that has to be later, as the team first has to navigate the waters of transition

Gambhir will get runs....his temperament is very strong.

in the last test in Australia he got a near 90...and in the triangular with Aus and SL he got a few 90s...and since then he has scored runs in ODIs....it's a matter of time.

and given Dhoni's lack of interest in tests...preference for the shorter form and his work load...it would have been ideal for selectors to put Gambhir in-charge of tests.....but that didn't happen for a numbe rof political reasons...even though Amarnath and one more selector wanted that........amarnath it is heard might have lost his job in the process.

so now we are stuck with Dhoni and hope he can deliver in tests in realtively more preferable conditions.........wallop Eng and Aus...and take us to the No.2 spot in tests...whihc is realistically within grasp

Gambhir scored 83 I think in the 2nd match of the Australia series. But his failure to produce the big innings in test is a bit older than that. He struggled with fitness and form in England, and although he played a couple of gritty knocks true to his fine temprament in South Africa he didn't convert those into 3 figure scores. The series against Australia at home also didn't see Gautam at his best. So its been around 2 years since he delivered as consistently as he used to since his come back in Sri Lanka.
In my view, despite his conservatism at times bordering on the stubborn, Mahendra Singh Dhoni is the best man to lead India for now in all formats. Dhoni had outperformed Gambhir in England and was the 3rd best batsman for India there.
We have reason to think Dhoni's refusal to bring about change is stubborn at times, but Gambhir himself had credited Dhoni for giving him a sense of security that allowed him to gain confidence and deliver at the highest stage. Remember Gambhir's reaction after he wasn't picked for the 2007 WC?

India A First Innings : 339 All Out. Rayudu top scored with 105.

NZ A First Innings : 105/4 . Shami Ahmed and Vinay Kumar taking 2 wickets apiece.

well I am pleased to see Rayadu get a 100 where it counts....in overseas seaming conditions....I had seen him in fine form in IPL.....and it is heartening to see him take that form into longer version also.

He has the reflexes, the stroke making of Raina....minus his weaknesses.

And Sami ahmed picks wicket everytime in any format that he gets a chance in

Indeed good to see Rayudu scoring a hundred for the A team. More consistent performances in NZ, and a good start to the domestic season, hopefully he'll be in the mix for national test duty in place of Raina.

The new selection panel has been constituted by the BCCI.
Mohinder Amarnath has indeed lost his job, and former India opener Vikram Rathour is the new representative from the north zone. Sandeep Patil (chairman), former India batsman and coach of a number of international sides and former head of the NCA from west, Former India all-rounder Rojer Binny from the South, former India wicket keeper Saba Karim from the east zone and Central's Rajinder Hans, Former Ranji title winning coach of UP constitute the panel.

India-A lead by a 105 runs in first inning and are 137-2 in the 2nd inning.
Sami ahmed took a 3fer and Rahul sharma continues to take 2 to 3 wkts most times inspite of not turning the ball.
Highly rated by Ganguly....Anustup Majumdar is unbeaten on 52


A Mukund* c Broom b Wells 41
U Chand c †Young b Arnel 8

AP Majumdar not out 52

Mandeep Singh not out 29

Extras

(b 1, w 5, nb 1)

7

Total

(2 wickets; 36 overs)

137

(3.80 runs per over)

Anustap did play a few IPL matches, and unlike many domestic players playing the IPL, he didn't look faced at all. Long way to go as yet, but I feel he could emerge beyond Ranji and do things for India in the future.

East Zone / Bengals has Manoj Tiwary, Majumdar, Dinda and Sami and Saha....5 guys lurking at the fringes of indian team......rarely has east zone shown so much promise at a given time

Shame Saurab Tiwary has lost his consistency. Varun Aaron is another one from the east zone who is there or there about..

msp83 wrote:Shame Saurab Tiwary has lost his consistency. Varun Aaron is another one from the east zone who is there or there about..

Yes msp...thanks for the reminder...I almost forgot Aaron is from Jharkhand as is Yadav....because both play for Delhi Daredevils.

Saurabh Tiwari debuted for India 2 seasons back in an ODI....and then the bizzare lack of consistency in Srikkanth's regime....he lost his place.
To be fair thouhg.....he didn't have a great IPL either...probably due to injury.......he was the captain of Jharkhand...this season I saw the name of Shahbaz Nadeem, the daredevil SLA as the captain of Jharkhand

Umesh Yadav plays for Vidarbha doesn't he?

^ you are right.....that's central zone

msp83 wrote:Umesh Yadav plays for Vidarbha doesn't he?

NZ-A go 8 for 273...chasing 313...and match ends in a draw.

India had the better of exchanges.....but NZ took the challange....and tried to chase down the total.

Good game....for Rayadu...and Rahul sharma who gets 4 for the game........i would take with a pinch of salt, the performnace of seamers on these seam friendly pitches

http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-world-twenty20-2012/content/current/story/584683.html

Shastri and Manjrekar....echo the same opinion...Yuvraj is not match fit...and it was obvious to me.....neitehr in batting nor in boowling he appears anywhere close to peak fitness......esoecially in batting against quicks bowling to him he was exposed in his lack of reflexes

Will Dhoni go in with 5 bowlers? If so, who will sit out? Will Sehwag come back? Will Pathan open if Sehwag isn't picked? Will Rohit Sharma or Yuvraj be dropped if Sehwag is picked? Or Will Sehwag come back in for Chawla who anyways should be dropped?
I'd say go in with 4 bowlers, Bring Tiwary and Sehwag in place of Chawla and Sharma, or go in with Balaji as the 5th bowler in place of Chawla and Sehwag back in for Sharma.
Sharma's 50 against England came after a very long time of indifferent batting, and he followed it up with a usual performance. Time the pampered boy is shown his place.
If they are going in with 4 bowlers then Yuvraj certainly will have to play. If they are going the 5 bowler route then even Yuvraj's place has to be looked. One of Yuvraj and Sharma will have to go, I'd prefer the IPL specialist/international pretender to go.

The pitch is affording spin again.....so we need atleast two spinners....Bhajji and Ashwin.

the question remains 5 bowlers or 4
I'd say.....go with 4 bowlers given the capability of the 5th ( whether Chawla or Balaji or Dinda) is no better than the part-timers.

Now with 7 batsmen...Sehwag will get back.....because of all the negative press dhoni got and expectedly..as we discussed here.

I would like to see Tiwari in place of Yuvraj