Luther Burrell Saints outside centre??

I was very impressed with the new centre for Saints at the weekend. He is big, looks the part, has pace and scored a very powerful try. Who is he? Is he England qualified? If he is then SL should get him in to the Saxons tout de suite.

The shirt's Tuilagi's to lose, and when he does lose it George Lowe will be the one to prize it out of his hands. Lowe is the future of English 13 play.

Burrell did look good for his try though, lots of question marks over his all round game still.

yappysnap wrote:The shirt's Tuilagi's to lose, and when he does lose it George Lowe will be the one to prize it out of his hands. Lowe is the future of English 13 play.

Burrell did look good for his try though, lots of question marks over his all round game still.

I agree in part but he should be snapped up for the Saxons. He could easily overtake Lowe in the pecking order if he continues in the same way.

Hopper is after Lowe.

Burrell has lost of work to do.

Burrell is a Yorkshire lad who played a bit of RL. Hel is primarily an inside centre and that is where he wants to play:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17524148

I'd have thought that this is a good thing, it is inside centre that we really lack depth.

12's (In no particular order and im sure im missing some)
Barritt
Waldouck
Daly
Allen
Twelvetrees
Banahan ( )
Turner Hall

13's (Again in no particular order and im probably missing some)

Tuilagi
JJ
Lowe
Trinder
Burrell

Surely we can sort out this flamin centre problem from that lot!

Geordie, Ithink you've got a couple mixed up there, as far as I can tell it's more:

Inside centre:

Brad Barritt
Billy Twelvetrees
Anthony Allen
Luther Burrell
Jordan Turner-Hall

Outside

Manu Tuilagi
Jon Joseph
Henry Trinder
George Lowe
Elliott Daly
Dominic Waldouck

Ooohh very interesting...i always thought Waldouck was a 12 when he was at Wasps...and young Daly another current Wasp was also a 12.

Ill investigate

I think Waldouck can play both to be fair, I just always saw him more as an 13.

Daly is very much a 13 though, he's got a wicked outside break.

Waldouck is almost equally adept at 12 & 13, though I always felt he played his best rugby at 13 (and outside Flutey, he played more at 12 for Wasps when Flutey was often injured). Not sure if his ability for the outside break that he often looked so classy at in the 13 channel has been reduced since his serious achilles injury.

It'll be interesting to see what Burrell can do at a more competitive team. He's probably been a bit 1D in the past, but that's apparently something he's been working on.

I'm not so sure about Hopper for the international stage yappysnap, he had some great attacking moments last season, but then his all round game looked a bit lacking in other matches, which it really shouldn't at the age of 27/28. I reckon your young lad Charlie Walker looks a better prospect after Lowe. I think both will be hard pressed to surpass Tuilagi & JJ at OC though.

Walker is a real talent Timhen.

In a few seasons time he'll hopefully be a regular for Quins but at the moment he is something to look forward too.

I do feel sorry for Lowe, he's had three seasons of playing top quality rugby, has no weaknesses in his game and is always one of Quins best performers but has apparently been usurped by two very young inexperienced 13's both of whom have massive faults as well as quality skills. But people will happily look past their faults and then in the same breath use that argument to say why another player shouldn't be picked.

Tuilagi & JJ are definitely younger than Lowe, not sure I'd say dramatically though, both 21 to Lowe's 22. They're not horrifically inexperienced by comparison either, Lowe has 77 caps for Quins, Tuilagi has 44 for Tigers and 13 for England, Joseph has 43 for Irish & 3 for England.

I don't think anyone is looking past their faults, but at the very beginning of their career there is plenty of scope to develop them in those areas. Hopper is now in his late 20s and should already have covered those gaps.

Regarding Lowe's prospects, no he doesn't have many obvious weaknesses, he's got a very solid all round game with some nice flashes, but what I think people see in Tuilagi & JJ is that extra bit of attack that is much needed given selections elsewhere. In that regard he's a bit unfortunate with the current mix of backline players he needs to fit in with.

I see Burrell scored 2 tries yesterday. Did anyone see it? He seems to have made a fine start for Saints. He started at IC. Him and manu could be a great combo.

Why are people so obsessed with power centres?!

Its "in vgoue" CJ...

Power centres are fine, pairing 2 together is a nonsense though, textbook in how to kill a backline.

That
Is what I really meant. That and the idea that every team "needs" one

ChequeredJersey wrote:Why are people so obsessed with power centres?!

First and foremost your centres at international level must be a brick wall in defence. Do that and you can afford to have an iffy winger (defensively) who has excellent finishing skills.

They can also provide the capability to bust through a weaker line, offload in the tackle, attract 2 players to hold them and thus create space elsewhere, etc.

All this 'balance' in midfield rubbish is just that - Rubbish. Power is the name of the game.

Englandglory balance in midfield is not rubbish.

Look at NZ they have Nonu and Smith - the bosher and the brains. Same with Leinster and Ireland - Darcy and BOD.

These are two of the most effective centre partnerships in club and international rugby.

It's also why the Lions partnership of Roberts and BOD was good - the bosher and brains yet again.

These two are both integral to the team

Beshocked. You quote Ireland and the Lions alongside NZ. Only NZ are regular winners. Ireland and the Lions are regular losers against SH opposition so your examples hold no water for me I'm afraid.

England are looking to beat the SH sides come 2015. There will be no room for weakness in the centre I can assure you if England want to win.

Sorry I didn't realise Leinster were losers.

Oh dear. Balance in a rugby team is the holy grail. That goes for the front row and all the way to the back three, including the HBs.

Burrell has seemingly played well for the first few games for Saints, but he's only just come up from the Championship and he's an unknown quantity for most of the other teams. He's currently being able to take advantage of that, let's see how he goes come the end of the season.

If all a team wants is two power centres, why not just pick two back-rowers there?

Leicester, Quins, Saracens and Saint are the four top clubs in the Prem currently and all play a balanced center pairing of bosher and distributer.

Despite the good start to his Saints career I think it is worth remembering that Burrell was often second choice at Leeds and bit part player at best for Sale. He rarely even got an appearance off the subs bench.

I appreciate he seems to have grown as a player and fits Saint's back play game plan very well, but lets be cautious when talking him up to international standard.

Besides mate...as i said on another thread....Fitzy is twice the player Burrell is if your looking for a power centre...

Burrell had a good game against Worcester...

I think the guy has great potential, but I'd be willing to bet he won't be anywhere near the starting line up for the AIs.

Name one good international centre partnership of 2 boshers, EG4E. I bet you can't. Because there are none

ENG- centres a concern. Our best centre Partnerships (years ago) had a brain and a bosh centre. Or 2 brain centres sometimes actually, WG and Catty

NZ- bosher and brains, the bosher being either phenomenally powerful with newfound good distribution (Nonu) or frankly an out and out flair player who is big

Wales- JD2 is big but whilst he is direct he is also skilled. Wales also have not beaten SH in a long time, probs the best of the boshy partnerships on show though in so far that it is one.

France- despite Rougerie sucking last time I watched, their best centre was the admittedly defensively poor Fofana.

SA- both powerful chaps but considering how their backs are playing, kind of an advertisement for balance! JDV is the more power of the duo (Steyn has some majornskills) and has arguably lost them matches this RC.

Scotland- use of 2 useless lumps at centre arguably the biggest problem in Scotland's game. Look far far better with Scott at 12.

Australia- looked DIRE! with 2 power centres. Have flourished using flair and brainy centres like JOC, AAC, Giteau

The majority of vaunted power centres are fantastic rugby players with great skills first who happen to also be big- Jauzion, SBW, Mortlock, Nonu, Steyn, these are all good because of their skill not their size. That's why Horne, Tindall, Banahan, Lamont at centre were all big and all crap

"Name one good international centre partnership of 2 boshers, EG4E. I bet you can't. Because there are none"

You make me laugh mate. In one sentence you say there are 'none' and then in the other you say -well there is power there but hey they have skill too. Of course they know how to play to their strengths.

France, Wales, SA, NZ and England (Greenwood and Tindall) all play or have played power centres.

What you fail to recognise is that power and skills is what works. Skills on their own without power is useless. You may as well field the U16s if that were true.

If you want people like Flutey and Tait in the centre then you are looking at losing every time.

Sorry I overlooked this gem " That's why Horne, Tindall, Banahan, Lamont at centre were all big and all crap"

Tindall is a RWC winner mate. There was no other centre in England at the time that could hold a candle to him. You know nothing.

I clearly stated partnerships of 2 boshers. Name a good one

englandglory4ever wrote:"Name one good international centre partnership of 2 boshers, EG4E. I bet you can't. Because there are none"

You make me laugh mate. In one sentence you say there are 'none' and then in the other you say -well there is power there but hey they have skill too. Of course they know how to play to their strengths.

France, Wales, SA, NZ and England (Greenwood and Tindall) all play or have played power centres.

What you fail to recognise is that power and skills is what works. Skills on their own without power is useless. You may as well field the U16s if that were true.

If you want people like Flutey and Tait in the centre then you are looking at losing every time.

Sorry I overlooked this gem " That's why Horne, Tindall, Banahan, Lamont at centre were all big and all crap"

Tindall is a RWC winner mate. There was no other centre in England at the time that could hold a candle to him. You know nothing.

And so we're back to the argument of size and skill. Skills on their own without 'power' as you define it, is certainly not useless. Let's take Shane Williams, Jason Robinson and Fofana as good cases in point to start with. They don't have the sought of overwhelming power you're referring to but this has meant they've had to enhance their skills and agility to come out on top.

Greenwood was a power center???!!!!!

He was no Fofana but his approach was guile and he was a playmaker

And when was Tindall last a player you'd be happy with at International standard? Tana Umaga was pretty good in 2003. Probably isn't now

Agree with you chequeredjersey. I wouldn't call Greenwood a power centre.

Tindall in his prime was an excellent player but these days is well past that.

I have already mentioned the RWC partnership of England in 2003. What better example could there be? But oh dear, lets add JDV and Jaque Fourie for SA another RWC winner. Enough said.

Does anyone apart from Englandglory think Greenwood is a power centre?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Greenwood was a power center???!!!!!

He was no Fofana but his approach was guile and he was a playmaker

So he could offload. That's what big guys can do much better than the fluteys and taits of this world

"Let's take Shane Williams, Jason Robinson and Fofana as good cases in point to start with. "

So are you saying you'd play ickle Shane and Jason Robinson in the centres then? They would have got slaughtered.

ChequeredJersey wrote:And when was Tindall last a player you'd be happy with at International standard? Tana Umaga was pretty good in 2003. Probably isn't now

This one is most interesting. This thread was about finding powerful centres to meet and better the best from the SH. You started to say that no other team in the world ever plays 2 big centres. Well you were wrong. Pretty much all of the RWC winning teams played big centres together when they could.

Of course Tindall is not the player he was. The point is that it is players like him with the pre-requisite power in the centre that we need to find. There will be no Webb Ellis trophy in our cabinet again until we do find them.

englandglory4ever wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Greenwood was a power center???!!!!!

He was no Fofana but his approach was guile and he was a playmaker

So he could offload. That's what big guys can do much better than the fluteys and taits of this world

The size of the player has nothing to do with their offloading ability. Greenwood was a tall player, but certainly not a power center. His strength was his distribution, not his shoulder charge. I have read a number of your posts in the past bestowing the virtues of only looking at big players and I have to admit to having the complete opposite view. Skill has to always be the first and key attribute of any top flight player and bulk should never be to the detriment of this either. If we were to end up with a game of 15 hybrids simply running into each other I think I'd stop watching the sport pretty quickly

[quote="englandglory4ever"]

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Of course Tindall is not the player he was. The point is that it is players like him with the pre-requisite power in the centre that we need to find. There will be no Webb Ellis trophy in our cabinet again until we do find them.

I'm a fan of Tindall's but we could have won the World Cup without him, in fact it was Catt's inclusion that helped us win it. In my opinion we couldn't have won the WC without Greenwood.

beshocked wrote:Sorry I didn't realise Leinster were losers.

Sorry I didn't realise we were talking about international teams and not club sides.

Both club and international club partnerships are important.

If they work at club level they normally transfer to international level.

Englandglory are you a big fan of Banahan in the centres? He's exactly the physical specimen you seem to want.

"I have read a number of your posts in the past bestowing the virtues of only looking at big players and I have to admit to having the complete opposite view. "

You'd better stop watching test rugby mate it obviously goes against your morals.

beshocked wrote:Both club and international club partnerships are important.

If they work at club level they normally transfer to international level.

Englandglory are you a big fan of Banahan in the centres? He's exactly the physical specimen you seem to want.

It hasn't worked for Ireland for the past 3/4 years...

beshocked wrote:Both club and international club partnerships are important.

If they work at club level they normally transfer to international level.

Englandglory are you a big fan of Banahan in the centres? He's exactly the physical specimen you seem to want.

Yes I was a big fan of Banahan and was hoping he had the skills to go with his size. He was scoring a lot of tries for his club at the time and I was pleased to see him given a go. But when he embarrassed the whole nation by being stopped by ickle Shane I was happy to see him go off the England scene. It does not diminish my belief one jot that we need big guys in the centre to have any chance against SH sides. We just need a relentless focus on finding them.

By the way. Are you a big fan of having small guys in the centre?

As already said rugby is all about balance.

If it was all about size Banahan wouldn't have been stopped by ickle Shane.

Vision and skill is still important.

There is of course a place for boshers in rugby as there is the more skillful players. It's about having the right mix.

beshocked wrote:As already said rugby is all about balance.

If it was all about size Banahan wouldn't have been stopped by ickle Shane.

Vision and skill is still important.

There is of course a place for boshers in rugby as there is the more skillful players. It's about having the right mix.

Right mix - shix!

This thread is about centres. Its about having big guys who are very good rugby players - that's all at test level.

Are you a league fan, EG4E?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Are you a league fan, EG4E?

No - they can't count past 6.

englandglory4ever wrote:"Let's take Shane Williams, Jason Robinson and Fofana as good cases in point to start with. "

So are you saying you'd play ickle Shane and Jason Robinson in the centres then? They would have got slaughtered.

Jason Robinson did play a decent amount at 13. Did pretty well actually. Though I'd rather we referred to normal sized blokes who play centre