Israel Dagg v Christian Cullen

First topic message reminder :

With his heroics in the RC this year and claiming a world cup last year, has Israel Dagg overtaken Christian Cullen as the greatest All Black full back of all time? and by virtue of their place in world rugby, the greatest Full Back?

Some interesting points about Cullen especially that Honk Kong sevens try and his ability to step off both feet.

But there was also something else about Cullen, and I dont mean to be disrespectful but he was at times somewhat dumb.

thebluesmancometh wrote:
IMO Kearney and Beale are probably the best on the planet, with regards to their all round game, followed by a group consisting of Dagg, 1/2p and Foden.

Yeah thats a laugh. Sums it up for me...

Otagolad wrote:
[Grand Slams were something to be looked at in awe but the AB's do it without even thinking these days. Once you can front up and beat the AB's then you can talk about one of your average players being better than ours

You'll find these dont usually work Otago..this is because of the team Dagg plays behind. If Kearney had the same 14 players in front of him then he too would be worlds best.

Thats the thing with the AB's- none of them are actually the best at what they do...each has 14 others around them making them look good...

Very few people think that, Taylorman.

If we accept that it's hard to definitively state who is the best in most positions but reasonably easy to get a top 3 (if there are only 1/2 clear candidates, i'll only put them down) and we take appropriate account of club form, a world XV looks like this, IMO
* injured or absent but would be on list
15- Dagg, Kearney (Beale off form, Halfpenny a step behind)
14- Ioane, Jane, North
13- Smith, AAC, JD2
12- (*SBW), Nonu, F Steyn
11- JOC, Bowe, Pietersen
10- Carter, Cruden, Hernandez
9- Smith, Genia, Parra
8- Read, Harinordiquy, Parisse
7- McCaw, Poccock, (*Smith), SOB
6- Dusautoir,(*Burger, *Kaino) , Ferris
5- (*Thorn), Whitelock, Gray
4- POC, Romano, Pape
3- Franks, Cole, Jones
2- Du Plessis, Best, Mealamu
1- Woodcock, Healey, Ayerza

I make that 14 out of 42, or a third of the list, with 3 players missing who could make it and potentially another IMO (Nev)

George Nepia was only 19,when he toured Europe 1925-6 played in every match about 30 total.But only played 9 test matches before going League but was considered THE Best conventional Fullback of all time.

Taylorman wrote:

Otagolad wrote:
[Grand Slams were something to be looked at in awe but the AB's do it without even thinking these days. Once you can front up and beat the AB's then you can talk about one of your average players being better than ours

You'll find these dont usually work Otago..this is because of the team Dagg plays behind. If Kearney had the same 14 players in front of him then he too would be worlds best.

Thats the thing with the AB's- none of them are actually the best at what they do...each has 14 others around them making them look good...

Brilliant - you are so right. No individual AB has ever been any good throughout the history of rugby

Cullen's running was brilliant in a way that Dagg hasn't come close to yet.
A reasonable kicker and good tackler.
He probably was dumb but not in a rugby way so who cares.
Dagg is very good and will probably get a bit better but he is not up to Cullen yet. Cullen's career was cut short by injury rather than simply losing pace.

That try in the HK sevens (he didn't score it he passed it) was AMAZING.

nganboy wrote:

He probably was dumb but not in a rugby way so who cares.

...yes he wasnt the most insightful interviewee either...not many pearls of wisdom came our way from the Paekak express...but thats cos his brain was too full of running options there wasnt much room for anything else...

Interesting comments but inaccurate the Grand slam was part of old style tours to Europe.The 4 home nations plus France,NO AllBlack side achieved it 1924-5 were unbeaten but did`nt play Scotland.I967 they didn`t play Ireland but were also unbeaten.

emack2 wrote:George Nepia was only 19,when he toured Europe 1925-6 played in every match about 30 total.But only played 9 test matches before going League but was considered THE Best conventional Fullback of all time.

George Nepia is a very well known name in NZ- more so than any other player pre 60's- by far- even non rugby fans know the name. Couldnt say that about any other player pre 60's except perhaps Dave Gallagher. Anyone else is mainly limited to rugby purists...

He's often celebrated here for his 1924 exploits and is the 'symbol' for that side.

emack2 wrote:Interesting comments but inaccurate the Grand slam was part of old style tours to Europe.The 4 home nations plus France,NO AllBlack side achieved it 1924-5 were unbeaten but did`nt play Scotland.I967 they didn`t play Ireland but were also unbeaten.

Have to disagree Alan - a Grand Slam for the AB's, SA and Aus is considered to occur when they beat all 4 home nations sides. See below links

http://www.allblacks.com/news/14319/All-Blacks-keen-to-extend-Grand-Slam-success

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(rugby_union)

From the first link:

"The All Blacks attempted five Grand Slam tours between 1905 and 1973, and fell agonisingly short on every occasion. Yet of late the team has achieved unprecedented success.

Graham Henry has since 2004 taken his All Blacks North on two occasions with the opportunity to record a historic Home Nations sweep, and has so far registered a perfect record with Slams achieved in 2005 and 2008.

This statistic could fool many into thinking that to beat England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales in what has most commonly been a four week run is not an immense hurdle, yet history has shown they are notoriously difficult to win.

The All Blacks did not win their first until their sixth attempt in 1978.

All up there have been 24 recognised Grand Slam ‘tilts’ by New Zealand, South Africa and Australia, and only eight times in history has it been achieved.

The Springboks have achieved four, yet their last came in 1961.

On the last three occasions they have fallen short, even in 1998 and 2004, when the South Africans arrived in Europe as Investec Tri Nations’ champions.

The Wallabies have recorded just the solitary Slam, won by their magical 1984 side coached by Alan Jones. Mark Ella scored a try in every test and the Australian’s recorded over 100 points in their four tests, then a record by a touring team."

Obviously the article I linked to from the AB's site was written prior to them making it three from three under Henry and equalling SA's 4 slams.

emack2 wrote:Interesting comments but inaccurate the Grand slam was part of old style tours to Europe.The 4 home nations plus France,NO AllBlack side achieved it 1924-5 were unbeaten but did`nt play Scotland.I967 they didn`t play Ireland but were also unbeaten.

Youre the only one I've ever known to raise this. In all our dealings with Grand slams its always been the four home unions.

Otagolad wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:IMO Kearney and Beale are probably the best on the planet, with regards to their all round game, followed by a group consisting of Dagg, 1/2p and Foden.

Seriously??? Beale reminds me of Andrew Walker - a car crash waiting to happen - he was brilliant last year but is now looking so shaky its not funny and as for Kearney my sides are hurting so much from laughing. Kearney is dependable etc. but not even in the same class as Dagg.

Also, Dagg is having to play regularly against the no. 2 and 3 teams in the world and as such he is having to continuously try and break down the best defensive lines and guess what .... he does. Kearney wouldn't get close to creating the scoring opportunities for himself or his team mates if he had to play SA and Aus week in and week out.

It is going to be so much fun listening to another year of British Isles fans excuses as to why their teams couldn't beat an AB's team who had just finished a gruelling competition against the no. 2 and 3 teams in the world and were at the end of their season. How many Autumn series will it be since the AB's suffered a loss to a BI team up north - oh that's right it will be 8 years. I use to think Grand Slams were something to be looked at in awe but the AB's do it without even thinking these days. Once you can front up and beat the AB's then you can talk about one of your average players being better than ours

Too right Otagolad! Go easy on them though! They'll be "rusty" no! "building for the RWC" ...

Have come quite late to the party but at the risk of derision from the usual suspects who believe that numbers mean nothing, it's worth noting the following fact pellets about Cullen:

1. he broke every NZ try scoring record at his debut in the Hong Kong 7s;

2. his 'try per test' rate is an astonishing 0.79 tries per test (compare this to Underwood's 0.53 and Campese's 0.63);

3. where Cullen started in the side, the All Blacks lost only once in the 22 tests from his debut.

Cullen in his prime deserves one of the most overused and undervalued adjectives in the game - he was genuinely unplayable.

Dagg is a silken runner with an eye for a gap but is not yet a single handed game winner in the way that Cullen was.

I beg to differ on the last point.

Agree, Dagg has set up or scored some important tries lately. If anything, he's having a second coming. He burst on the scene then lost a touch of form but is now back playing some scintillating rugby. He's the real deal, but just needs to keep it at this level. And if he does, he may become a great AB. Long way to go though.

anotherworldofpain wrote:I beg to differ on the last point.

I agree. George if you watch the highlights reel of the recent two oz matches and last weekend vs SA you'll find Dagg is the one regularly creating the scoring opportunties.

Last weekends try he fielded the high kick, ran it back in and from the ensuing ruck was first receiver, fed right, then got outside on the right wing to take reads offload from the ground then burst clear from the two very close bok forwards to run 30 yards to score. You would have to go back a long way to see another like that. His setups/ tries against oz were equally as classy.

Taylorman wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:I beg to differ on the last point.

I agree. George if you watch the highlights reel of the recent two oz matches and last weekend vs SA you'll find Dagg is the one regularly creating the scoring opportunties.

Last weekends try he fielded the high kick, ran it back in and from the ensuing ruck was first receiver, fed right, then got outside on the right wing to take reads offload from the ground then burst clear from the two very close bok forwards to run 30 yards to score. You would have to go back a long way to see another like that. His setups/ tries against oz were equally as classy.

Not saying he isn't Taylorman, he just needs to keep doing it consistently for another couple of years before I would be happy comparing him to CC.

Sorry gentlemen it is my age BUT the Boks achieved 4 REAL Grandslams up to 1961[the 5Matches].It was very much a point of debate in Books by people like
Reg Sweet,A.C.Parker ,and the Late Great Sir Terry Mclean[who`s brother Hugh incidentally was an All Black].In touring days a single loss of any kind was the bench mark of the tour.I of course have seen or followed MANY Tours live or via
Radio/Tv/Film Newsreels.It is something different playing a tour of 30 odd matches and playing and winning 5 tests.Than just playing 4 tests of course NH sides are now better prepared etc.and the Modern Grand Slam not to be sniffed at.BUT it is like comparing apples with bananas not the same and to Tour Europe.Losing only one match with 15 aside is more of an achievement. Than just playing 4 or 5 matches with the odd Barbarians or provincial match chucked in with 22 men.But then that is just me and what this site exists for the joy of debate.
Losing only one match on tour

Yes emack but tries were worth 3 and then 4 and now 5, and who knows? maybe one day 10. All things move on and change, but we still call a try a try. Not a banana, an apple or a dragonfruit, even when in Wales.

A "grandslam" might not be defined in the same way it was when JC played at out-half for the Roman Reserve XV, but frankly they are grandslams, that's what they are called and that's what was achieved.

emack2 wrote:Sorry gentlemen it is my age BUT the Boks achieved 4 REAL Grandslams up to 1961[the 5Matches].

Sorry Alan however you are still wrong - SA only achieved 2 (not 4) five nations slams (great effort though) and those were 1912-1913 and 1951-52.

Also, all official records I have read refer to a grand slam for touring teams as being wins against the 4 home nations - I defy you to find anyone who will back you up to say the only true grand slam is one against the five nations.

Especially the Welsh! Take away their 2 grand slams and they'll be livid!

Sadly NZ were denied two cracks as what Alan calls a "Real Grand Slam"-the Invincibles and in the 60s due to a row with the Scots over expenses and foot and mouth respectively. Just one (well two) of those things.

Dagg needs to do it for a long while yet-he's still pretty fresh. But he is a more complete footballer than Cullen was. Cullen's peak was 96-97. He was still pretty awesome after that but in those two years he was unplayable as GC said. He had some more space than Dagg due to the times and the bloke wearing 11, but noone else would have scored the tries he did. Noone. Dagg gets through gaps you don't think are there too though-so hopefully he keeps finding them in the next few years as then we'll have something worthy of comparison. In terms of his contemporaries, well I'd have had Beale as his equal but this year KB has struggled. Kearney reminds me of Chris Latham but Dagg has all those skills that Kearney has and is a more potent attacking threat so gets my pick as the best 15 in the world. Being a Leinster fan I like Kearney a lot but no I strongly disagree with Bluesman and especially that which lumps Dagg in with Halfpenny and Foden.

Regarding Read and the notion that other players in the team make him look better than he his, it's vice versa. Someone on here tracked Read during a game (apologies I forget who) and was happy to concede that he was wrong. Read lifts some of the other players around him. The guy is just immense and a total surprise after I first saw him wear black. I recall Neil Francis being astonished as he thought Read was a slogger and he ripped Ireland to shreds in 2010 (I know it was only Francis but hey he didn't just mumble something in response to Williams' ranting).

Still Cullen for me but Dagg is the best attacking full back in world rugby at the moment, and if he maintains current form through to the next World Cup then I think we'll be better placed to make Cullen comparisons.

Cullen with ball in hand was unbelievable. I like what I've seen of Dagg over the last couple of years, but he needs to sustain it.

Coming from an Irish fan, I'd say Dagg and Kearney are the two FBs who stand out atm, although to an extent they are made to look good by the ABs and Leinster respectively. Dagg is the nmost dangerous attacking FB around but Kearney is just unbelievably immense under the high ball.

theslosty wrote:Coming from an Irish fan, I'd say Dagg and Kearney are the two FBs who stand out atm, although to an extent they are made to look good by the ABs and Leinster respectively. Dagg is the nmost dangerous attacking FB around but Kearney is just unbelievably immense under the high ball.

Sorry, but club rugby does not really count. It's vastly easier to look great at club level, but we see so many club stars fail to make an impact at international level. And as for "under the high ball" comparisons... Sorry but Dagg wins that one too.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

theslosty wrote:Coming from an Irish fan, I'd say Dagg and Kearney are the two FBs who stand out atm, although to an extent they are made to look good by the ABs and Leinster respectively. Dagg is the nmost dangerous attacking FB around but Kearney is just unbelievably immense under the high ball.

Sorry, but club rugby does not really count. It's vastly easier to look great at club level, but we see so many club stars fail to make an impact at international level. And as for "under the high ball" comparisons... Sorry but Dagg wins that one too.

For the record, I think Kearney is/was going through an extended purple patch, whereas Dagg can probably keep close to this level for years to come.

It is easier to stand out in club rugby but a) Kearney was Ireland's outstanding player of the 6N and b) You could argue Leinster dominate European club rugby to the same extent that NZ dominate internationally. Therefore the calibre of each FB's team mates are relatively equal.

And even if Dagg is the superior player I will never be convinced that there is anyone better under the high ball than Kearney, because his catch rate is virtually 100% already.

Kearney is the best player I've ever seen under the high ball and but for one small reason, I'd be on here arguing that hes the best full back in the World.......

That reason being that he went down to NZ in the summer and played 3 tests and quite fankly wasn't particularly good, in fact in the 3rd test (like most of his colleagues) he sucked.

But like I say other than that I'd be arguing the point but I'm not. Dagg is the best .

You're probably right rodders.

Here’s one: Cory Jane

Utterly unshakeable under the high ball. Whether he is better, or as good as Kearney is obviously down to individual judgement but I’d plump for Jane to be honest as a bomb disposal expert of the highest order. Add in Dagg, who is extremely safe under the high ball and we’ve a pretty safe back three (if Savea isn’t playing – but he is getting better)

I suppose this isn't the best place to mention how well Jarod Payne played on Friday night, but I will anyways....... .....

Is that where Payne is rodders. Hows he going over there rodders?. Was fairly handy here. A typical no nonsense type.

Taylorman wrote:

HERSH wrote:Israel Dagg v Christian Cullen

Thats like comparing Donald v Carter.

Ask the same question in 5-8 years time.

Again you get the NHers thinking they know a bit about top class rugby. They always pump for the player that plays well in the north scene...oooh isnt he a good player they will say now that hes here... I agree he was better, but he's had a career of it. Dagg's only 23 and at that age I doubt there's been better. In this 4N particularly, where no one can find room he's found the holes...again and again. Mark of class. Give an inch take a mile stuff.

What the hell are you talking about here?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

HERSH wrote:Israel Dagg v Christian Cullen

Thats like comparing Donald v Carter.

Ask the same question in 5-8 years time.

Again you get the NHers thinking they know a bit about top class rugby. They always pump for the player that plays well in the north scene...oooh isnt he a good player they will say now that hes here... I agree he was better, but he's had a career of it. Dagg's only 23 and at that age I doubt there's been better. In this 4N particularly, where no one can find room he's found the holes...again and again. Mark of class. Give an inch take a mile stuff.

What the hell are you talking about here?

I think TM was missing the point several of us NHers were making which wasn't that Dagg couldn't be as good as Cullen but that he couldn't be said to be better yet purely based on longevity! Very few people were saying Dagg was anything less than one of the most talented fullbacks in memory. I don't think the disparaging remark about NHers was helpful or necessary, personally. And Carter was better at 23 than Dagg is, seeing as 23 was when he indisputably became the best FH in the world when he dominated the Lions with one of the best displays by any 10 ever. Apparently.

Okay but which one of the 4 players mentioned has played well in the NH scene as he puts it,I don't think any of them have.

Cullen for Munster?

Nope,he came up here but did very little for Munster (not his fault he was plagued by injury) he hardly played for them and when he did he was a shadow of his former self.

Maybe it was a general point, like us liking Spencer and Evans and Kelleher etc, but not rating players in New Zealand. Which a) is not true on the whole
b) mostly because we can't actually watch very much SH rugby necessarily

No primarily it was the carter vs donald comment. Also an unnecessary and ridiculous comment that deserve another.

Yeah, but that was from HERSH, Taylorman, hardly representative of NH fans' views

Fair enough...maybe just a bad day then...can't even recall posting it to be honest...must have reverted to old 606 mode...

Taylorman wrote:Fair enough...maybe just a bad day then...can't even recall posting it to be honest...must have reverted to old 606 mode...

Dorry I've probably gotten a bit over defensive of my Hemisphere too!

Taylorman wrote:Is that where Payne is rodders. Hows he going over there rodders?. Was fairly handy here. A typical no nonsense type.

Hi Taylorman, he was out pretty much all of last season with a cruciate ligament injury (I think) so he's really only getting going here now. Seemed a bit rusty and slow, understandably for the first few games this year but was outstanding against Munster on Friday, scored a try, made a few super line breaks and was ...well...awesome really. Seems a top player and bloke....er sorry for stealing (borrowing) him....

All good, he's one of those at the tier that was never quite going to be an AB without a bit of luck but fairly sound at sxv level. We've a lot of players that are really good at sxv but for some reason don't go higher.

Yeah top bloke as well...good ol' rugged kiwi type. I'm glad these guys have got somewhere to go to get some good life experience while playing the game they love without stressing over where they fit in the pyramid back here....

Well we're very lucky and happy to have him at Ulster. Someday I'm sure the heart strings will pull him home but hopefully he'll get plenty of life experience here in the interim

Similarly we'd like to thank you for Nevans, whilst we still have him. He may not quite be as good as Carter or maybe Cruden but nobody else in England can manage a game like him and still get the backs moving, make all his kicks and provide a solo threat. Scary that Carter was so much better that he couldn't get a proper look in

aucklandlaurie wrote: Some interesting points about Cullen especially that Honk Kong sevens try and his ability to step off both feet.

But there was also something else about Cullen, and I dont mean to be disrespectful but he was at times somewhat dumb.

This is an interesting point that is often made about some players. I've heard it said he was "instinctual" rather than "cognitive" which must be a nice way to say the same thing now I know a bit more about English! Maybe it is essential not to be too introspective to perform at this level? Not over thinking the situation just acting? Do some players who get the "yips", just have too much brain??

His nickname was beer bottle (or something like that) because he was empty from the neck up.

After today's performance I ask it again. Should Israel Dagg now be rated more highly than Christian Cullen?