1960s Muhammed Ali/Cassius Clay

If the greatest were around today, what would people think of him? The loud, brash, cocky, funny and controversial man and his sublime skills. Would people hope to see him get mullered? He was a marmite figure then. Would he be the same today?

He would, and boxing needs that, IMCO (In my cultured opinion).

Great post AZ.

He was not humble and mild mannered so he would be hated by many. People would queue round the block to see him lose.

The same, but more so, Az. In an age where, more than ever, the medium is the message, where a boxer of comparatively little talent can hype his way to a heavyweight strap through the power of his mouth alone, where news is a 24-hour phenomenon and is available to all of us, Ali would have been the ultimate in polarising figures today.

He would have still have been giving authority hell, still disapproving of wars in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, still shining a light on the world's injustices in his inimitable way. As a result of course, he would still have his share of enemies; as Swift said, you tend to know when a genius has come into the world, because all the dunces are in confederacy against him.

So it was with Ali and would be today. Of course, the gap between Ali and his closest heavyweight rivals would be even more astronomical than it was back in the 1960s. Almost every title defence would look as though he were fighting Brian London. People would pay through the nose to see him lose or to appreciate his other-worldly talent and he would be a star of even greater magnitude than he was in his own time.

He would be all over glossy magazines for his misogyny, cheating on wives, fathering kids. No matter what good he did, it would all be lost in this PC world. Imagine him trying to pretend that his mistress was his wife while promoting the biggest fight of his life! What a Legend.

hasnt done boris any harm

Like Boris, I suspect that Ali would have been a guest presenter of "Have I Got News For You". I don't think anyone would have given a damn about his sexual appetite; now, as in his own time, Ali would have been loved by the Cavaliers and excoriated by the Roundheads.

I think the Cap has put this one to bed if I'm honest, he'd be marmite like you mention Az - but his gulf in class would put him in the Mayweather echelons where there just isn't anyone around to challenge him so people would tune in to watch either his immense talents or to see him lose. The current crop of heavyweights would all lose to Ali, and quite handily. There is a massive gulf between Wlad and Ali. The thing with Ali is he was able to back up big words and cockiness with performances, Haye has never been able to do that, Khan has an inane desire to be seen as a lion when in reality he should be much smarter while boxing, Mayweather backs up his claims and his trash talk.

Good article Az, something that we often forget is that there are boxers who we now beat with sticks that perhaps we wouldn't have back then - imagine these forums when Ali lost to Spinks! We'd all be questioning his legacy, calling him protected for the latter years of his career, only beating up pretenders etc.

OK, lets see it another way. Ali were active today, but so were Frazier, Liston, Norton, Foreman and Holmes. Oh and Rocky.

Then we'd be spoiled by an exceptional heavyweight division, and Ali would still be the best.

The thing is with the big mouths nowadays, is that they're a long way from the best.

Great point about loud mouths nowadays being useless. Out of that lot, who would be the fan favourite. I still reckon Ali would have more supporters than detractors. He is like a Bentley compared to the others (Range Rovers with one for spare parts).

I'd say it'd be between Frazier and Ali, one being the quiet, reserved yet immensely lion hearted brawler and Ali being the cocky upstart with all the skills.

I'd say Ali, I'd love him, same as I like Mayweather now - I disliked him prior to the Hatton fight, but since seeing him show just how skillful he is, I think his mouth is justified.

Frazier vs Marciano.......if only....

captain carrantuohil wrote:The same, but more so, Az. In an age where, more than ever, the medium is the message, where a boxer of comparatively little talent can hype his way to a heavyweight strap through the power of his mouth alone, where news is a 24-hour phenomenon and is available to all of us, Ali would have been the ultimate in polarising figures today.

He would have still have been giving authority hell, still disapproving of wars in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, still shining a light on the world's injustices in his inimitable way. As a result of course, he would still have his share of enemies; as Swift said, you tend to know when a genius has come into the world, because all the dunces are in confederacy against him.

So it was with Ali and would be today. Of course, the gap between Ali and his closest heavyweight rivals would be even more astronomical than it was back in the 1960s. Almost every title defence would look as though he were fighting Brian London. People would pay through the nose to see him lose or to appreciate his other-worldly talent and he would be a star of even greater magnitude than he was in his own time.

You get repetetive loud mouths with massive viewing figures on 24/7 and millions of twitter followers, imagine how many would tune in for the genuinely imaginative and charismatic Ali!

Ali was controversial, but the way he was controversial would win him many fans in my opinion, he wasn't vulgar, he didn't swear at all and used actual wit rather than the trash his immitators come out with. It might seem crazy given the way people react to confidence these days, but I think Ali would be loved almost universally. He always had a great balance between walk and talk. Talk enough to be popular, but always walk just a little bit faster than your mouth.

Also we'd be treated to prime Ali vs frazier foreman etc mouthwatering!

azania wrote:He was not humble and mild mannered so he would be hated by many. People would queue round the block to see him lose.

He'd certainly be polarizing as he was back then. But, I doubt he'd have a legion of people wanting him to lose in the same way as say, Floyd Mayweather. The main reason I see for this is that at least Clay/Ali had intelligence and humour behind his brashness. Most brash boxers of today are just arrogant/ignorant.

Also - there wouldnt be nearly as much people around who would hate him for simply being black

ShahenshahG wrote:Also - there wouldnt be nearly as much people around who would hate him for simply being black

There may be more people who would simply hate him for being a muslim though?

Fair point. I can just see it now

Boxing Fan: Muhammaaad Aleeeeeeeeeee is an A-Raaab
Joe Frazier: No, no, no...he's a decent person

He probably wouldn't even have been called Ali. He did that because the NOI and black rights were a hot topic, and Malcolm X had taken him in.

That wouldn't happen if he were around today so he'd be even less of a polarising figure and most likely called Cassius Clay. Which is a cool name.

If Ali was around today his personality would probably blend in with a lot of other fighters and celebrities and he probably wouldn't stand out...

In 2012 the shock factor of an Ali type personality is gone..

Although a big name ...... PPV would have kept him from the masses.....Tyson the last great superstar had lots of cable exposure before making the jump..

However we have 60s Ali to thank for setting the tone for the brash, arrogant, charismatic personalities that were to imitate him.....

Certainly Ali, civil rights and the Vietnam war set the course for the new "Antihero" of the seventies....

Hail the Dirty Harry, Deathwish movies which said "We are not taking it anymore"....

Would Watergate have stripped Nixon of the presidency before the 70s...nope "National security" would have covered it up probably to this day!!

Personality wise Ali would have fit in comfortably with other personalities of this age..hence the fact he was such a huge character back then!!

He was a trailblazer in every way!!

Fighting wise I agree with the Captain he'd walk it with ease.... however being a big fighter from America and with success breeding success..

I'd expect a brethren of more aesthetic Americans and Europeans to ...

1. Step up and give him a challenge...

2. To take the heavyweight division back to being respected like it should be and away from the slobs...

What we'd give for an Ali or even Lewis/Bowe now!!

the era bread the man to what he was, in todays world he wouldnt have had to fight for his rights, wouldnt have had the vietnam war. so its very difficult what a ali would have been like if he wasnt fighting agaisnt these things. he grew up in a racist US, if he were around today he may well have been a very different person.

if were just saying that ali and time travel him forward, id imagine he would be liked. did push the boundaries too far at times (but then again in the era he was in it wasnt that bad compared to other things going on) but he unlike most boxers ive seen had something they didnt, wit and humour. mayweather just mouths off these days with very little of what he says being funny, ali was on another level in terms of personailty. its like comparing billy connolly with frankie boyle. ones a great comedian, the other just insults people thinking its funny

I like that Frankie Boyle......I find him really cutting and funny...

In an era of pc he hammers at subjects that are meant to be taboo...

and good luck to him..

People can take offence If they are shallow....

As Auntie Maisie used to say.......don't like don't watch..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I like that Frankie Boyle......I find him really cutting and funny...

In an era of pc he hammers at subjects that are meant to be taboo...

and good luck to him..

People can take offence If they are shallow....

As Auntie Maisie used to say.......don't like don't watch..

i dont find him that offensive, pretty high bar. but after having followed him on twitter for a while he bores the hell out of me now. its always the same, find the most offensive thing he can say to try and get a reaction. no talent in that

Try telling Azania that!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Try telling Azania that!!

ha ha ha im sure we have all tried at some point

Boxing IMO opinion is devoid of characters boring.I wish we had more personalities like Ali around,would loved to have seen Ali at a press conference with the Klitschko's just to see the bemused baffled look on their faces as Ali verbally tortures them with his brilliant wit.

Ali would have been adored by the mass and disliked by the minority, had he been around now at least the Heavyweight division would have been worth watching rather than the dross served up at the moment,worst era ever.

Sorry disagree...The Klits would have shrugged and acted classy.....

Whilst Ali could make people look small in their case I imagine they'd have come out on top as they did with Haye..

Totally agree with Truss, there. Far too smart to be disturbed by Ali's repartee, brilliant though it could be. When you can get by pretty well in four languages or so and clearly have plenty of intelligence to match, it's hard to take someone too seriously when they tell you that you're stupid/ugly/boring.

Ali could be bested in the verbal stakes, anyway. Love the tale of him getting on a flight to somewhere, omitting to fasten his safety belt and telling a stewardess: "Superman don't need no belt." "Superman don't need no plane," she is alleged to have replied.

Ali could give either brother a payday and a boost to their charities along with a boost to Vitalis political attempts. They'd love him. Haye appeals to those who like the brash, Ali appeals to everyone who admires someone at the top of his game an even more so as a personality.

As for that quote captain: Ive heard of a similar experience through my friend when she was working for a market research call centre called NOP. She rang up a random number and a girl picked up

"Hello, Im calling from a marketing research company called NOP, would you mind answering some questions?" without missing a beat the girl replied "How about N.O.P.E" and slammed the phone down

Some people are just brilliant at it

It's a gift, Shah, that's for sure.

The verbal war between Ali and Haye wouldve been awesome!

You're joking right???

1. What is so great about abusing people..

2. At least Ali could be witty.......Haye is just a classless moron who has thousands like him with a classless gob...

His kind of verbal warfare...Is for small minded wallies..

John Bloody Wayne wrote:The verbal war between Ali and Haye wouldve been awesome!

Different leagues mate. Haye's so called trash talking is amateurish compared to Ali. Man against boy.

Ali may even make K2 have a personality. Can imagine Ali doing a drug implication stuff on K2.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Totally agree with Truss, there. Far too smart to be disturbed by Ali's repartee, brilliant though it could be. When you can get by pretty well in four languages or so and clearly have plenty of intelligence to match, it's hard to take someone too seriously when they tell you that you're stupid/ugly/boring.

Ali could be bested in the verbal stakes, anyway. Love the tale of him getting on a flight to somewhere, omitting to fasten his safety belt and telling a stewardess: "Superman don't need no belt." "Superman don't need no plane," she is alleged to have replied.

Never said the Klits would be disturbed by Ali's repartee merely he would have verbally ripped them apart, the Klits would be the only comedy duo with 2 straight men as the act.

Again, don't agree with that premise, Nico. Think that Ali seemed like a verbal magician against people like Frazier, Shavers and Liston and I also think that this was a "fight" that he initiated in each case against an opponent who couldn't hit back. Much as I love him, I can't deny that there was something of the bully about Ali, whether inside or outside the ring.

The Klitschkos are verbally dextrous enough to have given Ali at least as much as he could handle in that department (and in more than one language, what's more). I actually think that they have quite a decent line in dry humour. Ali would naturally have been the loudest shouter, but outside the ring, at least, I wouldn't have wanted to bet that he'd have had everything his own way.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Sorry disagree...The Klits would have shrugged and acted classy.....

Whilst Ali could make people look small in their case I imagine they'd have come out on top as they did with Haye..

Haye had neither the wit or charm of Ali. Haye did his trash talking to get under the skin of Wlad to make him alter his game plan. Ali did it to sell the fight primarily. Although Liston and Frazier would probably disagree. His abuse of Frazier had the opposite effect n that it spurred Frazier on and made him firm up his attack at all cost plan. Liston just didn't know what he was up against and thought he was a scared kid (which he was).