Osprey George Stowers cited over tackle in win against Scarlets

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872 wrote:Ospreys back-row forward George Stowers has been cited for an alleged high tackle during their Pro12 win over the Scarlets on Friday.

Samoan Stowers' challenge came as Scarlets wing Andy Fenby was in the process of crossing the Ospreys' line.

Fenby dropped the ball and video referee Derek Bevan ruled no try could be awarded.

The teams were level 6-6 at that point and the visitors went on to win.

A date, time and venue for the hearing at which Stowers will answer the charge has yet to be set.

I am uncertain whether the incident was deliberate or not, but I htink his track record may go against him here.

Just because Liam was holding him, doesn't make judo throws suddenly acceptable on a rugby pitch!

sheephead wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

sheephead wrote:Priest. The two incidents you mention, Dirksen and Hibbard, both times the scarlets players is trying to waste time either not relasing the ball or the tackled player. Hibbard wanted a quick ball and Dirksen wanted to stand up. Liam Williams would not leave him to after the whistle.

A judo toss on a player leading to their head making contact with the ground is not legal, whether or not the player is trying to wate time (which was not the case IMO). A judo toss leading to a players head making contact with the ground first is however classed as a dangerous tackle, and is actually a red card offence. Not being picky but it is technically a red, and far worse an offence than you are making it out to be.

Hibbard's issues with Foxy were more understandable as trying to get the ball quick, and I can (in hindsight) see that it was probably not such an issue. However witht eh way the game had gone etc, it was an issue imo.

If Liam Williams was holding on to Dirksen he would not have been "judo thrown". He made the decision to continue holding on although his leg was lifted. 6 Of one and half a dozen of the other

So if a player is holding on then you thing a straight red-card tackle, after the whistle, is legal. Jesus I hope you never teach kids to play rugby,

At no point did I say it was ok. Im merely giving a reason for the reaction. Tell you what, fine, live in your own little world where llanelli have been wronged. Every action creates a reaction. Not condoning the reaction but there was a reason for it. You can't cry about it when the llanelli player was also to blame. Both of you need to get off your high horses.

sheephead wrote:At no point did I say it was ok. Im merely giving a reason for the reaction. Tell you what, fine, live in your own little world where llanelli have been wronged. Every action creates a reaction. Not condoning the reaction but there was a reason for it. You can't cry about it when the llanelli player was also to blame. Both of you need to get off your high horses.

They say Scarlets now.

Llanelli weren't playing and I believe SS was pointing out that Dirksen committed a red card offence - any prior action or provication doesn't change the fact.

I can't see what the problem with that is?

ok from a different angle. Maybe the ref missed the atrocious red card (adequately punishable by death) due the fact that poor Liam Williams was hanging on to him for his life, worried dirksen was about to strike him with a closed fiat (or trying to deliberately slow the game down). As they were so close together he was unable to determine the person at fault.

Striked with a closed Fiat! that is defiantely a red card offence!

Only one of those little fiat 500 ones. Nothing too major =D

Ahh I see - Ryan Jones wouldn't even notice it!

How you feeling about treviso away priest. I can't believe how different they play at home. You may need some fiat 500s

Yup we may indeed need some Fiats - I hope we've learnt our lesson from the Ospreys game, we need to play the ref to the full and if it's allowed, do what ever we can in at the breakdown and tackle area to give us an advantage - something the Ospreys did and we didn't, and it proved decisive.

I'm worried, but at the same time I'm hoping that Easterby has worked really hard on the players and is looking for the forwards to be as aggressive as possible (legally I mean) and front up to Treviso, so we earn the right to use our backs - and give them clean ball.

Kicking could be a problem though - but Jordan and Aled Thomas may get another shot, which will be good

sheephead wrote:At no point did I say it was ok. Im merely giving a reason for the reaction. Tell you what, fine, live in your own little world where llanelli have been wronged. Every action creates a reaction. Not condoning the reaction but there was a reason for it. You can't cry about it when the llanelli player was also to blame. Both of you need to get off your high horses.

Each action has an equal and oposite reaction. The referee had blown for a pen in the favour of the Ospreys, so that would be the retribution for the pen. Liam Williams may have caused the issue. However if Ryan Jones had been thrown head first into the deck after he infringed on the Ospreys five yard line in the second half would you have classed that as acceptable play due to the far he had done something wrong, and sreated the reaction?

In the match last season there were a number of people calling for Matthew Rees to be banned for his citing over a dangerous tackle (i believe) on Ryan Jones, which was dismissed for being a simple case of clean clearing out at the ruck. I was pretty sure it was not a bad incident, but wold have accepted it if he was banned. MUch like when Manu injured RST back at Stradey. I am not a fan of dirty play. IF two players want to both knock lumos out of each other then I have no probelms with that (but they both get a card, unless it is a mass brawl like Wales V Argentina '99), however if a player wants to pin someone to the deck and punch the daylight out of him (McRae on the '01 Lions tour) I am not ok with that. There are differences between an acceptable reaction and a dirty one. And personally whether it were against the Scarlets or the Ospreys what Dirkson did was not acceptable.

I am far from on a horse, and to be honest I don't give a flying on about Llanelli, or Carmarthenshire, as I am not from there and never plan on living there.

sheephead wrote:How you feeling about treviso away priest. I can't believe how different they play at home. You may need some fiat 500s

We have already been unfortunate enough to have found out how tough they can be in Italy. I have a feeling that the result against he Ospreys will give the Ospreys a real boost against Munster, as they will have the confidence, but sadly I think the Scalrets pack may have lost some of their confidence. And to be honest we really need our pack to front up in Italy.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Yup we may indeed need some Fiats - I hope we've learnt our lesson from the Ospreys game, we need to play the ref to the full and if it's allowed, do what ever we can in at the breakdown and tackle area to give us an advantage - something the Ospreys did and we didn't, and it proved decisive. I'm worried, but at the same time I'm hoping that Easterby has worked really hard on the players and is looking for the forwards to be as aggressive as possible (legally I mean) and front up to Treviso, so we earn the right to use our backs - and give them clean ball.

Kicking could be a problem though - but Jordan and Aled Thomas may get another shot, which will be good

Rob the gog would have probably have been shown the video and had it pointed out to him that after every whistle AWJ or Ryan talked to the ref, and Rob only talked to him to get warnings to hand to the side. That said he is a young captain and he will hopefully learn from being on the recieving end of what two of the best captains in the country can do.

As for the kicking, I really hope we do go with either Aled at 10 or Jordan at 15. we can't afford to risk losing games due to a poor boot.

[quote="ScarletSpiderman"]

sheephead wrote:I am far from on a horse, and to be honest I don't give a flying on about Llanelli, or Carmarthenshire, as I am not from there and never plan on living there.

You don't know what your missing!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I am far from on a horse, and to be honest I don't give a flying on about Llanelli, or Carmarthenshire, as I am not from there and never plan on living there.

You don't know what your missing!

Didn';t you jump ship to Cardiff???

I assume this arguement about video refs etc will go on for some time

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19719846

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19719836

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that Derek Bevan was so focused on the ball and Andy Fenby's juggling of it that he didn't see what caused him to drop the ball over the line?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I am far from on a horse, and to be honest I don't give a flying on about Llanelli, or Carmarthenshire, as I am not from there and never plan on living there.

You don't know what your missing!

Didn';t you jump ship to Cardiff???

Yup but I left my heart in Llanelli!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

sheephead wrote:At no point did I say it was ok. Im merely giving a reason for the reaction. Tell you what, fine, live in your own little world where llanelli have been wronged. Every action creates a reaction. Not condoning the reaction but there was a reason for it. You can't cry about it when the llanelli player was also to blame. Both of you need to get off your high horses.

Each action has an equal and oposite reaction. The referee had blown for a pen in the favour of the Ospreys, so that would be the retribution for the pen. Liam Williams may have caused the issue. However if Ryan Jones had been thrown head first into the deck after he infringed on the Ospreys five yard line in the second half would you have classed that as acceptable play due to the far he had done something wrong, and sreated the reaction?

In the match last season there were a number of people calling for Matthew Rees to be banned for his citing over a dangerous tackle (i believe) on Ryan Jones, which was dismissed for being a simple case of clean clearing out at the ruck. I was pretty sure it was not a bad incident, but wold have accepted it if he was banned. MUch like when Manu injured RST back at Stradey. I am not a fan of dirty play. IF two players want to both knock lumos out of each other then I have no probelms with that (but they both get a card, unless it is a mass brawl like Wales V Argentina '99), however if a player wants to pin someone to the deck and punch the daylight out of him (McRae on the '01 Lions tour) I am not ok with that. There are differences between an acceptable reaction and a dirty one. And personally whether it were against the Scarlets or the Ospreys what Dirkson did was not acceptable.

I am far from on a horse, and to be honest I don't give a flying on about Llanelli, or Carmarthenshire, as I am not from there and never plan on living there.

sorry as I've slept since then, what was Ryan doing, slowing the ball up. Got to be honest but im all for player retribution if a player is playing illegally.

sheephead wrote:Iim all for player retribution if a player is playing illegally.

Then I hope you don't go into coaching. It's the player who retaliates who usually gets carded.

sheephead - Ryan Jones either came over, laid over, or played the Scrum half, god honest truth I can't remember which, but it was one of those professional things done on the 5 yard line. A fair retribution for that would be a thumping off Timani as we could have scored.

I ain't into dirty play full stop. I know a lad who is looking at a hefty week ban for stamping, he says he stamped the oppositions arm as he was not releasing and then went to stamp him again but stopped himself. Whilst I feel sorry for the lad, he did take the laws into his own hands and has to pay the consiquences.

If it's the one I'm thinking of it was 5 yards from the Ospreys line, Scarlets attacking and Ryan Jones came over the ruck and layed between the ball and scrum half.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:If it's the one I'm thinking of it was 5 yards from the Ospreys line, Scarlets attacking and Ryan Jones came over the ruck and layed between the ball and scrum half.

Thats the one.

Bradley Davies did something similar in the last few minutes of the Blues' match against Edinburgh: Edinburgh were five metres from the Blues' line and he comes over the ruck and knocks over the scrum half. What does the referee do? He just says, "get back, four!" I couldn't believe it! It's just as well Greig Laidlaw went on to drop a goal or it would have been such an injustice.

Luckless - there has been a huge range of officials interpritations of the law this season in the Rabo. And every time a ref is names it seems they have to have (X-th Competititive Match) written behind their name. I assume that this will mean in a season or two we will have a fair few refs who should be reffing the same way, and are all of a similar quality. It's just tedious waiting for them to get to that standard.

I don't envy them their job, there are so many things they have to watch for at every breakdown and they can't possibly spot everything / get every decision right; but when there's a clear offside or something like that and the assistant referee is right there, then that really annoys me. They have much less to keep an eye on and some of the things they miss are staggering.

James Jones is running the line for Dragons v Edinburgh on Friday.

Good luck - I bet the only thing that James Jones will flag for is if some one accidentally flicks mud into his locks - then there'll be serious sanctions!

Stowers escapes ban apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

So that's 3 high tackles, an attempted decapitation, Dirskens judo flip and Ryan Jones preventing quick ball 5 yards from the line that the Ospreys got away with clean.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Stowers escapes ban apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

So that's 3 high tackles, an attempted decapitation, Dirskens judo flip and Ryan Jones preventing quick ball 5 yards from the line that the Ospreys got away with clean.

That is a pathetic decision.

Look at the video at about 1:40 in and tell me that is not a typical Samoan forearm smash to the face. That is nothing like an attempt at a tackle, its just a swinging, head high, stiff arm cheap shot.

doctornickolas wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Stowers escapes ban apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

So that's 3 high tackles, an attempted decapitation, Dirskens judo flip and Ryan Jones preventing quick ball 5 yards from the line that the Ospreys got away with clean.

That is a pathetic decision.

Look at the video at about 1:40 in and tell me that is not a typical Samoan forearm smash to the face. That is nothing like an attempt at a tackle, its just a swinging, head high, stiff arm cheap shot.

A player can only be suspended if the offence was a red card or worse. IMO that was a yellow card offence and penalty try, not a red.

I thought straight arm smashes were red card offences automatically?

Great to see that my Facebook 'Justice for George' Campaign has paid off and common sense has prevailed.

I feel like Erin Brockovich.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I thought straight arm smashes were red card offences automatically?

Pass.

We'll be debating it on tonight's podcast, tune in and see

Very surprised at that. Even if he was given the benefit of the doubt it was still reckless

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Stowers escapes ban apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

So that's 3 high tackles, an attempted decapitation, Dirskens judo flip and Ryan Jones preventing quick ball 5 yards from the line that the Ospreys got away with clean.

You don't say that North's try was a knock on, the knock on that almost created a try for Knoyle (stopped by Kahn), Knoyle grounding the ball on the goal line, the forward pass to Fenby before almost losing his head, the forward passes given against the Ospreys (one disallowed try), Liam Williams standing on R Jones and the same player holding back the Ospreys wing (yellow card). I just pointed these observations to balance the decisions i.e., the ref was not giving the Ospreys all the decisions.

'The disciplinary hearing in Dublin accepted Stowers' explanation that he was attempting to dislodge the ball.'

Well there you go then. Next time a player gets cited for a swinging arm and no attempt at a tackle, they can just say they were trying to dislodge the ball.

Glam how can north knock the ball on if it never touchd his arms? And weve discussed the liam w holding back above. And there were def forward passes made by both teams, particularly for the disallowed try (if its the one im thinking of)

doctornickolas wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Stowers escapes ban apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19697872

So that's 3 high tackles, an attempted decapitation, Dirskens judo flip and Ryan Jones preventing quick ball 5 yards from the line that the Ospreys got away with clean.

That is a pathetic decision.

Look at the video at about 1:40 in and tell me that is not a typical Samoan forearm smash to the face. That is nothing like an attempt at a tackle, its just a swinging, head high, stiff arm cheap shot.

But I think the IRB rules do say somewhere that it is not acceptable to tackle a player with out using arm, to shoulder charder a player, or to smash them around the head or throat to tackle them, unless your an islander, and if you are an islander the excuse for such brutal play is that your an islander.

Until Scarlets are able to ditch the "victim mentality" they will struggle when things get difficult for them.

Stag, I think any side would feel the same if one of their players got clouted in the face as he was crossing the line and the perpetrator got away with it.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Stag, I think any side would feel the same if one of their players got clouted in the face as he was crossing the line and the perpetrator got away with it.

Derek Bevan should have called a penalty try. Under the Pro12 TMO rules I'm pretty sure he couldn't recommend a yellow card (that's part of the new TMO trials in England and SA). It wasn't a red card tackle, (it's one of those that looks much worse in slow-mo than in full speed), so he couldn't be banned by the judiciary.

red_stag wrote:Until Scarlets are able to ditch the "victim mentality" they will struggle when things get difficult for them.

Ouch. You rascal.

Well it wasn't a tackle full stop, Kiwi.

I still think it's possible that Derek Bevan was so focused on the ball and whether Fenby had control of it - because he was juggling it - that he didn't see what caused him to lose it over the line.

Luckless, they should feel aggrieved about not getting a card or a penalty try. Bevan was entiteld to recommend a penalty try and his description would have brought out a yellow.

However some on the comments here are simply well lets just say I disagree that a large extent. It was not a red card and we are getting exaggeration from many Scarlets fans on the subject playing up the victim mentalty (dare I say as per usual).

As long as teams are looking at external sources like blaming the referee for every second defeat that comes their way they will not improve. Ulster used to be like that to some extent but Brian McLaughlin and David Humphreys instilled a different mentality - just make your own luck and go win.

red_stag wrote:Until Scarlets are able to ditch the "victim mentality" they will struggle when things get difficult for them.

That's a bit harsh. I think you will be hard pressed to find a scarlets fan (on here) that doesn't accept that the Ospreys brought the right tactics to the game, that Rob the Gog did not doo his job as a captain and hastle the ref half as well as AW Jones, or that Rhys Priestland needs to sort out his kicking (etiher ditch this new style, or practice for hours on end until he masters it). However there were a fair few incidents that did get us a bit worked up, but I think it will be interesting to see if you lot get worked up by things going against you that may have changed results (Neil Back anyone?).

Risca Rev wrote:

red_stag wrote:Until Scarlets are able to ditch the "victim mentality" they will struggle when things get difficult for them.

Ouch. You rascal.

Just frustrates me Rev.

Scarlets have got a serious team. They are sitting top of the table having got Leinster and Ospreys matches out of the way. But I just feel there is not that tough mental edge needed to succeed yet.

Honestly last year (and it pains me to say it) they should have done the double over us in the Heineken Cup. But they were not able to simply go and win when it got difficult.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

red_stag wrote:Until Scarlets are able to ditch the "victim mentality" they will struggle when things get difficult for them.

That's a bit harsh. I think you will be hard pressed to find a scarlets fan (on here) that doesn't accept that the Ospreys brought the right tactics to the game, that Rob the Gog did not doo his job as a captain and hastle the ref half as well as AW Jones, or that Rhys Priestland needs to sort out his kicking (etiher ditch this new style, or practice for hours on end until he masters it). However there were a fair few incidents that did get us a bit worked up, but I think it will be interesting to see if you lot get worked up by things going against you that may have changed results (Neil Back anyone?).

+1

red_stag wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

red_stag wrote:Until Scarlets are able to ditch the "victim mentality" they will struggle when things get difficult for them.

Ouch. You rascal.

Just frustrates me Rev.

Scarlets have got a serious team. They are sitting top of the table having got Leinster and Ospreys matches out of the way. But I just feel there is not that tough mental edge needed to succeed yet.

Honestly last year (and it pains me to say it) they should have done the double over us in the Heineken Cup. But they were not able to simply go and win when it got difficult.

It was the same thing in those games that cost us in the Ospreys match, we left enough pints to win the game on the feild inthe shape of missed kicks. That is our real weakness, but unfortunately it is an awkward one as we have a good running fly half in Priestland, and a decent kicking fly half in THomas, but we don't have anyone who is decent in both kicking and attacking.

In fairness to ScarletSpidey, at least he does the victim mentality/we've always been the region of the west/heart & soul rugby country/we had at least fifteen thousand there, thing with a bit of intellect and good humour.