Celtic u20s league

Whilst the Rabordirect pro12 has done wonders in allowing the Celtic teams to compete with England at international level, at age grade it is still woefully far behind England at age grade. Surely it would be a good time to create an u20s league so that they can compete at age grade level. If each country has four teams: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Borders and Aberdeen in Scotland and the existing academies in Ireland and Wales. They could play with the same fixture list as the lull league but with the two Scottish teams replacing the Italians. These teams would help improve standards and provide younger players with challenging rugby, it would also help the unions to work out if they have the talent and depth to create new pro teams.

Wales u20s were the first team ever to beat the junior all blacks at the JRWC this year. We did well unbeaten to the semis.

But I would love to see a junior Rabbo cup.

maestegmafia wrote:Wales u20s were the first team ever to beat the junior all blacks at the JRWC this year. We did well unbeaten to the semis.

But I would love to see a junior Rabbo cup.

Fair enough but how many years in a row have England won the u20 six nation?

Don't see the need. For the Irish teams we have:

- British & Irish Cup
- Interprovincial 'A' Teams
- All Ireland Club League

There is enough to develop players without need for a Celtic U20 League

Wales have no problem developing young talent either.

Also Im not sure that a full time U20 league is financially sustainable. Certainly no way that Scotland can pay for four U20 teams to travel over to Galway and Swansea and Dublin every other week especially when there is no money coming in.

123456789 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Wales u20s were the first team ever to beat the junior all blacks at the JRWC this year. We did well unbeaten to the semis.

But I would love to see a junior Rabbo cup.

Fair enough but how many years in a row have England won the u20 six nation?

But why is that relevant. How many of these guys have gone on to enjoy long and meaningful international careers.

U20 rugby is about development not just results.

Ireland have an Interprovincial U20s competition.

Ulster won this year with a Grand Slam!

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/10815.php

Mrs P we have the same in Wales. The regions Accademy sides face each other.

I am not certain but I don't think all our U20 team would even be in our Academy.

Funnily enough i mentioned this being a great idea on the scotland u20s thread earlier. I think it would be a great idea and something that is lacking. There would be a far greater number of players developed than what there is now. The league would create a higher standard of play for the 18,19 years old than what they are already getting and would transpire into the national teams performing better than they are now at u20 level.

There would be costs involved but the SRU could afford edinburgh and glasgow u20 teams and the benefits from them would far outway any costs involved.

The Regional academies are selected at U16 level after rugby festivals, who then face off against each other and act as selection to the Wales U16 team.

It seems to be doing okay. I would rather see more U18 and U20 players playing in the Premiership as it is a better development tool, Llanelli are a great example. Unfortunately some clubs are out for themselves and keep the local old heads in the starting XV for years despite the fact they're unlikely to progress. Pontypridd being a great exaple of this.

[quote="mikey_philVIII"Unfortunately some clubs are out for themselves and keep the local old heads in the starting XV for years despite the fact they're unlikely to progress. Pontypridd being a great exaple of this. [/quote]

Munster are probably the best example of this.

It would be good to see but it won't go ahead due to travel costs and players studying etc. Also the development of players in each country seems to be going find.

red_stag wrote:[quote="mikey_philVIII"Unfortunately some clubs are out for themselves and keep the local old heads in the starting XV for years despite the fact they're unlikely to progress. Pontypridd being a great exaple of this.

Munster are probably the best example of this.[/quote]

In what way? They have that youngster JJ on their books and a cracking A team. Besides, our clubs are a little different to your provincial set-up.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

red_stag wrote:[quote="mikey_philVIII"Unfortunately some clubs are out for themselves and keep the local old heads in the starting XV for years despite the fact they're unlikely to progress. Pontypridd being a great exaple of this.

Munster are probably the best example of this.

In what way? They have that youngster JJ on their books and a cracking A team. Besides, our clubs are a little different to your provincial set-up.[/quote]

JJ has only played 20 minutes of rugby for Munster in his life.

We are developing nicely now but we missed out on a generation of players. Take Donncha Ryan - he is turning 29 this year and has just about got into the Musnter team. We let Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan and Sean Cronin disappear through our fingers and they form part of Leinsters excellent team. Had we relied a little less on John Hayes, Peter Stringer and Jerry Flannery we could have seen more development there.

We have learned our lesson though and have done a great job in the last 18 months of building a new look Munster. But for about 6 years we hung on too long to Horan, Flannery, Hayes, O'Callaghan, Leamy, Quinlan ,Wallace, Stringer, O'Gara etc.

Personally I think the Band I cup is enough.

Welsh and Irish are fine using it, inter proviencial/regional championship and domestic league to develop players.

'A' teams playing the English Championship is a good learning curve.

I think that it's only Scotland that has issues, developing players and they may wish to look at entering 'A' teams into it instead of 4 clubs

Do these 4 clubs contain all the best up and coming Scottish players??
Dont think so, they did try entering a team combing the acamadies Gael force, bt don't anymore. If you want a competation to better develop Scottish players, use the BandI cup better!

red_stag wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Unfortunately some clubs are out for themselves and keep the local old heads in the starting XV for years despite the fact they're unlikely to progress. Pontypridd being a great exaple of this.

Munster are probably the best example of this.

Stag thing is Munster are the end product (well higher up inthe food chain), and have their under 20s, A teams etc, previously mentioned to help develpe their younger stars. Ponty are meant to be a developement tool to help feed into the Blues, and as such should be trying to get a good ballence of youth and experience. But they seem to be more towards targeting winning the league and to hell with serious developement (much like Neath seemed to do when they wanted independance from the Ospreys).

A good point Scarlet

I don't think it would cost too much for Scotland, they have training facilities in place and academies as well as venues already in Edinburgh and Glasgow and I'm sure they can find a pitch or venue in the other areas.
I think it would be a better standard than club rugby and it would mean that players are used to styles of play and coaches, it also means that younger players can play somewhere rather than sit in the stand.

You mean shaft the Italians again? Do they have players at u20 level who could do with some competition?

If it's meant to directly help International or more importantly, Pro12, then a level playing field of.... level dealing.... would include u20 Italian teams.

That would significantly increase the costs involved, perhaps a way to provide a level playing field would be an u20 european cup

Oh forgot to put in my last post, for the Welsh we have the following to develope the best youngsters

1 -: Rabo Pro12 (And i guess HEC too) where the best young players are playing (North, Rhodri Jones, Prydie, Harry Robinson, Samson Lee, Kirby Myhill, Rhys Pratchell, and a heap others who are technically able to play under 20s)

2 -: LV= Cup where the youngsters who are good, but currently unable to get more than bench appearances at tehir region get to start and have decent game time (Scot Williams, Liam Williams, Ben Morgan, Justin Tipuric, Josh Navidi have all been LV= players)

3 -: The Welsh Premiership where the young players get week in week out experience to prove if they are worth of being selected by their regions for the LV= Cup (or better), at the moment there are some youngsters playing in the welsh prem that have regional experience, but need to get a bit more game time.

4 -: British & Irish Cup where the youngsters who are not quite good enough to make it into the LV= Cup and a few old heads play.[/b]

5 -: WRU Age Grade Championship were the age grade regional side face each other.

I honestly don't think we could squeeze in any more rugby for the youth players.

123456789 wrote:That would significantly increase the costs involved, perhaps a way to provide a level playing field would be an u20 european cup

Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't...I've just this moment walked away from the longest bloody debate I've ever had on these boards concerning a European blasted Cup!

I believe in honour - we're connected to Italy (some of us like the connection, some of us seem to do an awful lot of concealed growling and mumbling about it) But if they're here - one of the family that we seem to so naturally expect the 'home' nations to be - then a place would be found for them at u20 level if if was a real starter of an idea.

To me Italy are as much a part of 'our' network as Wales is or Scotland is.

While we're on the subject of player development it should be noted that the Pro 12 is many times more important for developing players than the HEC.

Personally I think Italy should be trying to enter their 'A' teams into either the Top 14 'A' league or against a cup with Rugby Pro D2 teams (like the BandI cup, maybe incluse some other European teams)

red_stag wrote:

123456789 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Wales u20s were the first team ever to beat the junior all blacks at the JRWC this year. We did well unbeaten to the semis.

But I would love to see a junior Rabbo cup.

Fair enough but how many years in a row have England won the u20 six nation?

But why is that relevant. How many of these guys have gone on to enjoy long and meaningful international careers.

U20 rugby is about development not just results.

You are correct to an extent, because the development is what matters most. I don't mean to poke at you but I refer you to the highlighted statement; where exactly do you think the bulk of our current team have come from? Through the academies and Wales U20. They should have long careers hopefully...

The team that faced the Baby Blacks in the pool stages; Wales: Ross Jones (Ospreys); Tom Prydie (Dragons), Cory Allen (Blues), Jack Dixon (Dragons) Eli Walker (Ospreys); Matthew Morgan (Ospreys), Tom Habberfield (Ospreys); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Kirby Myhill (c, Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Rhodri Hughes (Ospreys), Matthew Screech (Blues), Luke Hamilton (Blues), Ellis Jenkins (Blues), Dan Baker (Ospreys)

Replacements: Darran Harris (Blues), Gareth Thomas (Carmarthen Quins), WillGriff John (Blues), Ieuan Jones (Drgaons), Daniel Thomas (Scarlets), Jonathan Evans (Dragons), Sam Davies (Ospreys), Thomas Pascoe (Blues)

You know who Prydie is, he and 9 other players had already played Regional level by then (I assume all were attached to a Premiership if not called up), Prydie and Habberfield were Sevens regulars. Harry Robinson got pinched for the tour down under. This is mere speculation, but most would agree with me, I expect Ross Jones, Prydie, Dixon, Habberfield, Rob Evans, Myhill, Lee, Jenkins, Baker, Dan Thomas to have international careers. A few others will just be on the fringes of their region. I assume MM mentioned that win because it has set a precedent for future U20 teams to live up to. That and it helps them get a better group seeding because I think we've had NZ U20 in our group for the past 3 or 4 years. Finishing 3rd means we should avoid them and have a better chance of progression. It's how England remained so competitive in this tournament since it's creation.

Also a good note, Sevens have been a good development tool for some of our players.

I think the u20s learn more against hardened men that almost made professional rugby or just weren't good enough with their tricks and experience then against other u20s.
It also makes them learn how to take on people who are stronger and possibly faster than them. After all we want young players who rely on skill and not pace or strenght to win.

As I have said before an u20 will improve quicker and learn more against a grizzelled 30 year old who has a grudge against young pros cause he didn't make it or wants to put the kid in his place.

I think this is a non subject, there is more than enough development pathways put in place for the younger boys to get gametime.

Firstly at age grade levels all academy teams (U16,17,18) play each other in Wales, inc a 5th team (Blues split into north and south) then they play youth teams (16-20). Thats 9/10 good quality games, then as they get older there is prem and Brit Ire cup rugby to play.

Thats not including U16/18 and 20's international fixtures, club games (youth/2nds/1sts), college, uni fixtures and training.

If your elite at age grade levels you have training (x4/5 per week) SnC (x2/3 per week) and recovery (x1/2 per week) plus at least 1 game (club/region) per week.

Where would we fit an U20's team in for these kids? Not to mention how will the regions afford to run this programme, most people involved with age grade rugby are volunteers or region staff/players, where do they get the time to run the teams parallel to their careers?

I say let the English U20's team win GS's year in year out, it offers them no advantage at the top table, and IMO the English set up is translating probably the least amount of numbers into international rugby to other nations! (I may be wrong)

thebluesmancometh wrote:

Firstly at age grade levels all academy teams (U16,17,18) play each other in Wales, inc a 5th team (Blues split into north and south) then they play youth teams (16-20). Thats 9/10 good quality games, then as they get older there is prem and Brit Ire cup rugby to play.

6 teams included RGC's academy.

Apologies, I always forget them because I duck out of the trip to Newtown every year!!