Expectations of the Celtic League.

The Celtic league began in the 2001–02 season, but some could consider the 03-04 season when the Welsh teams regionalised, as the true beginging of the League.

My question is at the times, what did you see the teams gaining out of it rather than staying in their own domestic League, has it lived up to your expections at that time, and has your team benifited from it? And at the time did you think your team would have done better/worse than it currently has done. What about the growth of the league, quality of players, etc is this better of worse than you expected? Has in failed to live up to or exceeded your expectations, and in what areas has it done this or failed?


In my opionion at that time I expected the Welsh teams to dominate the league, with the Irish teams sometimes doing better, as the players and set up of the teams was better in Wales at the time, and they were clubs (then based on clubs) that had strong support and strong teams, with better setups and systems. I expected the support in Wales to be higher than it is. I didn't know much of about the Welsh clubs/regions, but expected that since it was their national sport that they would be the best teams in the league. Thought the League titles would be mostly shared out among them.

I never thought the Scots would fold their third team, and expected that the teams would have grown a lot more in supporter numbers, being based in two of the biggest cities in the league, and have a fourth team in the league by now. Think there performance is about as expected that the can push right up to the top of the league some years, and be at the bottom the next.

Never tought the Italians would Join.

I never expected the Provinces to have done as well as they have, thought most of the better Irish players would still ply their trade in England, and the provinces would be made up of the Irish players that the top clubs in England didn't want, thought Ulster would be the strongest and best supported and then Leinster and Munster, didn't see the crowds of these to take off as much as they have either. Saw maybe an Irish province competeing against the Welsh and getting a few league titles over to Ireland, hoped for another H-cup.

Over all I thought it would be not as good as the English League (only just behind it), as the top players would all still end up there, in the very top teams. I did think it possible that a H-cup or two, would be won by a Celtic league team.

I think we have the best league, though I really think it should be expanded or tweaked a bit, to possibly include more teams.

More teams??? Like who

Leinster 'A'

Well I see no reason why a second league could be set up with the potential to longer term relegation and promotion.

Bucureşti Oaks from Romania
VVA-Podmoskovye from Russia
Scottish Borders from Scotland
RTC1404 from Wales
Praetorians Roma from Italy
Baden-Wurttemberg Province from Germany
FC Barcelona Rugby from Spain
CRC Madrid from Spain

These could be some options.

Relegation works in leagues based in a single country. But imagine Glasgow and Edinburgh being in separate divisions one year, fans get no derbies. Similar if Dragons or Connacht dropped away, their fans would miss out playing their local rivals.

Good grief, what if one of Munster or Leinster had a bad season and we had to wait over a year before we saw them play each other again.

All too horrible to contemplate.

The rugby season is 42 weeks long so in theory it is possible to have a 22 team league, so there is no reason why it couldnt be expanded.

But the 6 nations is 7 weeks, then you've got HEC pool and knock-out stages (9 weeks), pro12 semi- and finals (2), November internationals (3 or 4) so that 42 is already reduced to at most 21 weeks where the Pro12 would not be overlapping with something.

greybeard wrote:But the 6 nations is 7 weeks, then you've got HEC pool and knock-out stages (9 weeks), pro12 semi- and finals (2), November internationals (3 or 4) so that 42 is already reduced to at most 21 weeks where the Pro12 would not be overlapping with something.

Does it really matter? The region and provinces would probably be happier for the extra income from the games during the international season anyway! and it's a chance to develop players.

AlynDavies wrote:Well I see no reason why a second league could be set up with the potential to longer term relegation and promotion.

Bucureşti Oaks from Romania
VVA-Podmoskovye from Russia
Scottish Borders from Scotland
RTC1404 from Wales
Praetorians Roma from Italy
Baden-Wurttemberg Province from Germany
FC Barcelona Rugby from Spain
CRC Madrid from Spain

These could be some options.

All well and good in theory but how would you foresee those teams performing? Far worse than Aironi are right now is my view and I wouldn't see that changing any time soon. Perhaps make the lowest team in the league be in a playoff against one of those teams at the end/start of the season to give them the carrot of joining the pro 12 but Aironi (yes, Aironi) would thrash all of those teams relatively comfortably IMO. Look at it again in ten years but no way right now. Don't Russia (EDIT: didn't even see you mentioned a Russian team on your list! ) have some sort of professional set up going? Look at them in a few years potentially..

Alyn I would actually say in time I'd like to see the Italians go back to forming their own league with that Northern Wales and a Scottish region taking their place.

I think Italy has the means to support itself should rugby ever really catch on (I believe it will). However letting random German and Romanian teams into the Pro 12 is a recipe for disaster and a case of throwing baby out with bathwater.

In my opinion, to gauge our league you have to look at the top end of the game, mainly the international teams, before the concept of the Celtic League, lets be honest, all the Celtic countries were more or less making the numbers up in the six nations with the two big guns, England and France battling it out for the title. Now move on eight years and we have three grand slams between us and all the Celtic nations are more than a match for England and France, in fact the games cannot be called before a ball is kicked, where as before 2003 you knew that one of them two countries had to be below par and we had to play out of our skins to get a result. If we look at where we are now, we are actually confident when going into games with the top three southern hemisphere teams now as well, so to generalise, I think that the Celtic league has been a revelation, and has put Wales and Ireland up their competing with the best, and God only knows where Scotland would be now without it. As for Italy only time will tell, but if the other nations in the league are anything to go by, then it can only be good for Italy.

I guess we could add 2 teams almost immediatly that could be Praetorians Roma from Italy, and The Southern Kings from South Africa. This could easily be achieved by scrapping the play offs.

Alyn, I admire your tenacity!

But seriously, what about funding? Treviso are in the Pro12 because Praetorians couldn't prove they would be able to support themselves financially in the first place. And then you want to add in each team making a trip to SA?

You've gone a bit crazy, mate!

Why would we scrap the playoffs so soon after introducing them. What will Praetorians Roma bring to the league? We need to strike a balance. I reckon while we're at it we just invite all the club teams who aren't in England or France!!

red_stag wrote:Why would we scrap the playoffs so soon after introducing them. What will Praetorians Roma bring to the league? We need to strike a balance. I reckon while we're at it we just invite all the club teams who aren't in England or France!!

Bonus points!

Best to leave the celtic league as it is currently but in the future possibly add 2 extra sides.

Can't really talk of expansion when most sides in the celtic league struggle in the European competitions. They still need to grow themselves.

Leinster and Munster are certainly the flag bearers but can you see any other celtic league side as contenders in Europe?

If a Welsh,Scottish or Italian side wins the HC you can talk about expansion!

The celtic league is still in it's infancy.

The attendances of the celtic league are poor enough anyway!

The two Scottish clubs in particular are in disarray.

Boosting attendances and appeal of the current celtic league should be plan.

There should be a separate European league for the likes of Georgian,Romanian,Spain,Portugal teams.

Nail on the head beshocked. The only thing I will say is about your last point.



Do domestic teams in Portugal have the means to jet off to Georgia for their domestic league matches every week? I just don't see it.



I would love to see more Club v Country tests involving lower tier nations. I thought the annual Munster v USA matches were brilliant before they discontinued them.

So far the league has had:

2001/2002 - 15 teams, two separate groups, round robin (not home and away), knock-out stages & a final.

2002/2003 - Same as before, but 16 teams (Borders added)

2003/2004 - Regionalisation, Welsh clubs out, Welsh regions in, 12 teams. Single tier, no groups, home and away. No knockout stage, pure league format.

2004/2005 - 11 teams, Celtic Warriors disband. Only played until April to allow the top 8 to play in the "Celtic Cup"

2005/2006 - Welsh regions threatened with explusion, but this eventually settles down. Celtic Cup abolished.

2006/2007 - No drama

2007/2008 - 10 teams, Borders disband.

2008/2009 - No drama

2009/2010 - Playoffs re-introduced

2010/2011 - 12 teams, Italy joins.



Do you know what my expectations are? Well, I don't have any. But my hope is for a few years of stability. No additions, no subtractions, just a league we can all enjoy and become comfortable with.

That's a fair point Red Stag. I haven't exactly thought it completely through Also the financial constraints are there.

Who would want to watch tiny Portuguese clubs playing tiny Georgian clubs?

Maybe the Georgians and Romanians could have a joint league. The Portuguese and Spanish a joint league.

Greybeard I agree that stability should be the aim.

The two Italian clubs joining is a very big step forward. They need time to settle in. They will improve.

Also look to get averages of 10k and above.

The idea of having relagation would add to the competiveness but the Heineken qualification system and national and local pride are one of the things that make the Pro12 unique.

Alyn your idea of adding a South African team is never going to happen the distance teams would have to travel makes it logistically impossible

There would be no real problems with some outside teams joining, Russia already have clubs with higher budgets than the Scottish teams, and Iv'e read they do get sell out crowds.

Yes but Alyn - why mess that up and impose a 2,400km commute on them.



Hope you don't get offended but it seems to me you are just plucking teams out of the air with zero though put into the domestic structures in their country, the implications for the current Pro 12 fans and teams and the logistics and likihood of success.



Munster aren't going to agree to a situation where by they could end up playing second tier rugby in the future and having to fly off to Georgia and Russia for regular games.



Its nonsense.

Can we try and stick to the orginal topic!

What did you see as the futher of the league about 10 years ago? and has it delivered?

not where do you see the futer of the League now!!

Also to end the future of the league debate, there will never be two tiers promotion and relegation, fo rthat to happen the SRU, FIR, IRFU, and WRU would all have to vote for it, and none of them are going to vote to potentially having both teams or even just one team in the 2nd Div. That is never going to happen (turkeys don't vote for Christmas)

What may happen is Italy form more regions (about 3/4 more) over time in Italy, while the German acamady grows with maybe another one in Germany and 2 more in Romania, then in time the 2 Italians leave the Celtic League to form a European League with these teams, and are replaced by a fifth Welsh and 3rd Scottish team.

but please can we remain on topic, in 2001/2003 what did you think then, that the league would be like now, and has it matched those expections?

To be honest I don't know if I even had expectations. I think I saw the league as a bit of a contrivance, and the inability to find a sponsor for years on end was an embarrassment.

It didn't help that originally it was provinces V clubs and was very one sided. It suited the IRFU more than their Welsh and Scots counterparts for sure.

I never thought it would reach the level it has. I'm still mostly interested in the matches against the other three provinces (which is why I'm totally against the idea of relegation, I don't want to lose any of those games), but friendships and rivalries are appearing across frontiers, which before I hadn't given a second though to.

I think I expected to see much higher attendances, and was also shocked by the WRU's mis management of the Warriors and allowing them to go to the wall, was also shocked by the Borders going as well. I thought (naively)that after 8 years of the league that there would be more people coming around to regionalisation.

Also as for the current league I feel there are games to look forward to and rivalries beyond the other Welsh teams - I'm really hoping we spank Ulster after the games last season, I believe Blues fans enjoy going to Edinburgh, and I always enjoy it when Leinster/Munster come down.

All we need is bigger attendances and everything will fall into line and then we can talk about developing other nations by bringing them into it/getting more regions/getting a 2 tier releagation system going. But that's for the future

Smirnoffpriest wrote:. I thought (naively)that after 8 years of the league that there would be more people coming around to regionalisation.

There are more people coming around to regional rugby, as an 18 year old I never really experience rugby before regionalisation and it is the same for most people under 25, in 20 years time people under 40 wont remember the old clubs and the only people who are still bitter will be drooling over their soup.

Regional attendances have been growing year on year, the Blues have gone from having 4000 a game to hosting the largest regional crowd in welsh rugby history of over 22,000 last year.

I like the thought of having a "second" league with other sides that are bubbling under.

If you stay away from massive geographical separations it could work. Or have one match at a neutral venue.

Best point would be having a relegation playoff in the Pro 12 and promotion in the 2nd league.

Never work though with the geography.

I was initially hoping for higher attendances in Wales and especially Scotland. How its turned out in Scotland with the lowest crowds and the Borders folding is disappointing. With the 4 Provinces suited perfectly its really worked tremendously for the Irish. I do wish that more would be done to increase support here and to try and get more Welsh fans through the gate- (I think I'm correct in believing that Welsh fans still have more of a connection to their local club than their region).

I'd be against a second league and relegation. There's far more money and stability in just having the one league and we still get all the derbies in. If the league expands and more clubs could be brought in from Scotland and Italy we could have conferences similar to the super 15 so we can have national champions and an overall league champion- (more bragging rights and keeps more interest going for less successful teams in a tight conference)

red_stag wrote:Yes but Alyn - why mess that up and impose a 2,400km commute on them.

Hope you don't get offended but it seems to me you are just plucking teams out of the air with zero though put into the domestic structures in their country, the implications for the current Pro 12 fans and teams and the logistics and likihood of success.

Munster aren't going to agree to a situation where by they could end up playing second tier rugby in the future and having to fly off to Georgia and Russia for regular games.

Its nonsense.

I picked the teams to set up a second Rabodirect league with possible promotion and relegation at some point in the future, I did suggest 2 teams later on to join it immediatly, when I was asked for possibilities.
As a fan I'd welcome the chance to see a South African side in the RaboDirect, it would be brilliant.

The South African Union are looking to add a 6th professional team somewhere and it's a big priority for them, also Britain to South Africa is less than South Africa to Australia and New Zealand, look where South Africa is and look where the Pacific is. South African players regularly commute to Australia and New Zealand for the Super 15 so I don't see any reason why it would be a problem for their players or ours.
The flight time from London to Johannesburg is 11 hours. Johannesburg to Sydney is 12 hours, while Johannesburg to Auckland is 16.5 hours minimum.
South Africa would offer a lot, it would give their country a team to watch during their off season and would bring a far bigger audiance to our league. I doubt the players would mind too much to be honest, the chance to go to South Africa for non international players would be very tempting.

The topic was open to discuss possiblities .

Wales606 - agree with all you say, attendances are growing and in the future we will have even more. I just expected say the Blues (not picking on them, just using them as an example) to be getting crowds of in excess of 15,000 for a lot of games and for the Scottish teams to have a lot more fans and be challenging to getting a 4th region rather than their 3rd region folding and their remaining 2 struggling.

As you say lots of Welsh supporters (particularly over 30's) have a greater connection to their clubs - and Wales has always been a very parochial place where teenagers/20-somethings fight with other lads on a night out just because their from a different town/valley/area, and lots of fans say I wouldn't support them (even against English/European opposition) because their from a different town. And that was before regionalism, it's one of the reasons why (IMO) Welsh coaches haven't lasted long in Wales job for long over the last 10-15 years, because before their even in the job there's mumbling of "he won't do any good, he's just a Newport idiot" or "god look at him he's just going to pick all his Cardiff players and turn Wales into the Blues", instead of when it's a foreign coach it's immediately "This guys got class lets see what he can do" attitude.

Which is a shame.

note- I know the supposed quotes are a bit of a generalisation and are only there to give a gist of my arguement.

Same in Ireland - that attitude has been rife amongst fans under Declan Kidneys reign as coach unfortunately.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Wales606 - agree with all you say, attendances are growing and in the future we will have even more. I just expected say the Blues (not picking on them, just using them as an example) to be getting crowds of in excess of 15,000 for a lot of games and for the Scottish teams to have a lot more fans and be challenging to getting a 4th region rather than their 3rd region folding and their remaining 2 struggling.

As you say lots of Welsh supporters (particularly over 30's) have a greater connection to their clubs - and Wales has always been a very parochial place where teenagers/20-somethings fight with other lads on a night out just because their from a different town/valley/area, and lots of fans say I wouldn't support them (even against English/European opposition) because their from a different town. And that was before regionalism, it's one of the reasons why (IMO) Welsh coaches haven't lasted long in Wales job for long over the last 10-15 years, because before their even in the job there's mumbling of "he won't do any good, he's just a Newport idiot" or "god look at him he's just going to pick all his Cardiff players and turn Wales into the Blues", instead of when it's a foreign coach it's immediately "This guys got class lets see what he can do" attitude.

Which is a shame.

note- I know the supposed quotes are a bit of a generalisation and are only there to give a gist of my arguement.

Look lets be honest about Welsh rugby here... the more I go to regional games the more I see there is no issues with supporters and regionaism...
I live in Bridgend I can commute to all our regions easily, season tickets are around £160 a season, some of them allow kids in for free, some of them give you a free jersey with the season ticket, and for any commited season ticket holder the costs aren't that expensive.

The problem is occasional fans are priced out, who wish to buy tickets on the day and that is a issue ALL regions need to address, the sooner they do the sooner attendances will pick up. The problem is fans inside stadiums are not a priority for regions. Most of their money comes from television contracts and sponsorship.

Most fans can watch a game on BBC or S4C, while sitting at home and drinking a few cans Lager costing £1 each in the warm house.
Or you can go to a freezing cold stadium in the rain, pay £20-£23 a ticket.
Then pay £2.90 (Dragons) - £3.60 (Blues) a pint.
£3 for a match Program,
£3 (Scarlets, Dragons) - £5 (Blues, Ospreys) for car parking, (petrol prices not included).

The bottom line is that with nearly all the Welsh teams games available to watch (if you know where to look), fans don't need to spend the money to see their team play.

Do you think less televised games is the answer? I wouldn't agree. It's important for the (sorry, hack, spit) 'brand' of each and every club.

Leinster regularly get around 17,000 fans and they're televised quite often. Compare that to maybe, if they're lucky, 2,000 fans at Connacht but they're rarely shown on TV. TV isn't as important as winning and winning regularly when it comes to attracting fans.

20-23 quid doesn't seem that bad, either, if I'm honest. Not for a once off. But teams like the Ospreys should have two or three times the number of season ticket holders than they do at the momement. Last year they were barely scraping 6,000 fans at home and they were the defending champs. That's poor. A successful side shouldn't have that problem.

greybeard wrote:Do you think less televised games is the answer? I wouldn't agree. It's important for the (sorry, hack, spit) 'brand' of each and every club.

No I'm saying you can watch the game for tv for free at home, and save yourself the expense. People don't have much money anymore.
So why pay £40+ and get cold when you can watch it in the warm for free at home?
Walk up ticket prices need to drop in my opinion, to get Welsh attendances higher. Few people have £40 plus a week spare in disposable income anymore, everyone I know is really struggling financially.

What is intresting and may bring this back on topic is,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3600832.stm

"the regions have had their regional responsibilities clearly defined so that they can develop their playing structure, youth programmes and support base.

Bringing in the crowds is surely the key to the future success of regional rugby in Wales, but last year - with occasional exceptions - the dismal attendances were matched by the moribund attempts at marketing."

Have they really delivered, on that statement.

I don't think the Crowds or marketing have improved by as much as expected

Another point is that I don't drive (not for want of trying but for medical reasons) and to get to and from any game in Llanelli (and I live in Cardiff, the main public transport hub) it has to have finished before 8.00, as a lot of games don't kick off until 6.30 (even on Saturdays) and Friday games are increasing, it means I have to put off going to games I'd really want to go to as I have no way of getting back.

And thats with living in Cardiff, a lot of Scarlets fans come from Llandovery, or at least the other side of Carmarthen. People in the Gwent and Swansea valleys will find it equally difficult to get to games using public transport.

I think marketing is getting better though, but I agree walk up prices do put people off - but that's not the sole or even key problem as the Blues regularly offered free tickets on the night last season and still struggled for fans.