Well lets have a proper Pro 12 Discussion, and ways to improve it, constructive please not WUMS.

First topic message reminder :

Here's Jeremy Guscott's View

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19803591

Hi Jerry, after watching two truly awful performances this weekend from the Blues and Leinster (both quarter-finalists in last year's Heineken Cup) we can't really blame England and France for wanting changes in the Heineken. The RaboDirect Pro12 is an absolute joke! No wonder attendances aren't great, it's being treated like a glorified training session by some teams. Dave Morgan

Hi Dave, I believe the Pro12 teams have an opportunity to play the game as the Super XV do but haven't realised it yet; the sooner they do, the better the performances will be. I accept the weather conditions are different but not for the entire season.

The Pro12 at the moment has the better players compared to the English Premiership in terms of possible Lions, but the brand of rugby isn't commensurate with the superior ability. It needs the top players playing more regularly and the teams' attitude has to be to produce an enviable product that will have the supporters wanting to watch.


Well there's one person thought's, it seams to be a widely held view in England (rightly or wrongly).

Do you feel the Pro 12 needs to make changes?

beshocked wrote:

red_stag wrote:I may be wrong Beshocked but it looks to me you are trying to unsettle a few people with your claims that our teams are mentally fragile.

I think you need to show a bit of respect pal - nobody else is dragging this into a my dad is bigger than your dad thing.

As Biltong says why are you or any English people trying to fiddle with things that are of no concern to the English?

Lord Dowlais was criticising Saracens in the AP so I answered him. Not many sides are mentally tough. Normally the teams that win the most are.

I am arguing the point that being exciting isn't great if it's not backed up by good defence and mental toughness.

Leinster should not being hammered by Connacht as example. Credit to Connacht for the win but seriously that shouldn't happen. You can call it exciting an arguably showing the toughness of the Pro12. Yet looking at the Leinster side says otherwise.

Edinburgh showed an intensity and toughness in the HC which they have failed to replicate in the Pro12. They still ship too many tries. Granted they have shown resilience against the likes of Leinster but then again shouldn't get hammered by Dragon. You can call it exciting but it's also humiliating.

Are all sides in the AP mentally tough? No - most aren't which is why we have failed in Europe.

Woah, woah, hang on a minute beshocked, I have not once mentioned your beloved Saracens so I would like an apology post haste.

greytiger wrote:Basically The HEC is the greater competition. To start a club season with the bigger cup doesn't make sense. National league, Euro league, Euro Internationals. Level by level.

SH do Super 15, International then Domestic.

TJ wrote:Why are people who are not followers of Rabo teams telling us the rabo needs to be improved? its simply does not. Its a fine league.

I think in future it could expand to a two division league but there are not he teams out there to do so right now

Exactly, if it aint broke then don't fix it.

Shame the point of rugby is to win and not get the biggest crowd. HERSH may just have a point then. But what's the bet that Munster and Leinster could still pull bigger crowds if it was? Would this lead to "The Rabo teams don't charge enough money for their tickets." ?

What would happen when the Aviva clubs are still struggling to get out of their groups in the HC ? That's right, they would find something else to moan about, instead of taking their heads out of the sand and looking at their own system and denying to themselves that all the other countries around them are moving forward with a modern more complete player orientated system, a system where players are not flogged to death in search of a buck for the greedy owners, despite what Hersh and beshocked are saying, they know deep down that it's their system that needs changing and not ours. As it stands now, the English future lies along mediocre foreigners and beating up of any decent player to death by putting them through the rigmaroles of a long and battering season.

Also, we do not field weekend sides in our league, we exorcise our right to rotate our squads when neccasary so our players remain at the top of their game all season long for both club and country, England should try it some time, then they would not have so many jaded, injured or knackered players come the business end of things.

LordDowlais wrote:What would happen when the Aviva clubs are still struggling to get out of their groups in the HC ? That's right, they would find something else to moan about, instead of taking their heads out of the sand and looking at their own system and denying to themselves that all the other countries around them are moving forward with a modern more complete player orientated system, a system where players are not flogged to death in search of a buck for the greedy owners, despite what Hersh and beshocked are saying, they know deep down that it's their system that needs changing and not ours. As it stands now, the English future lies along mediocre foreigners and beating up of any decent player to death by putting them through the rigmaroles of a long and battering season.

The aesthetic being that RP 12 teams look for long term solutions to success where as Premiership and Top 14 look for short term gains.

Longterm to me is investing more in youth rugby to find your talent, rather than short term, investing in expensive foreign players to get you success.

maestegmafia wrote:Bandwagon good post mate... very good points there.

One I'll pick up on is

The inter Regional/provincial matches are great but the big teams like munster, Leinster, Ulster who have recently done well in Europe attract a hell of a lot of attention from fans, swelling attendances too.

This i see as a very positive sign in Wales. It may not have caught on so much in Ireland, Scotland or Italy when we come to visit, we haven't won an HEC, yet! But Ospreys almost had a clean sweep of the Irish last season and Scarlets will be out for revenge after Munster dumped them out of Europe last year. Their matches will be pretty bloody affaires.

Rivalry needs history. We are rapidly building history.

History and a bit of bad blood/controversy. The celtic unions get on well, but a bit too well. We need some dubious incidents. Like the Ospreys accusations towards Horan after one of those games. They are not nice to happen, and no one will publicly (except me just now) look for them to occur, but it is needed to spice things up a bit. The kind of things that mean during a game you don't want to just win the match, but bloody the other guys nose a little bit in the process. More of the enforcer type roles maybe.

I do like the sound of splitting the Pro12 into 2 conferences. It would tee up the playoffs better as well.
Say Ireland & Scotland in a conference (A). Wales and Italy in the other (B). (you could alternate it each year, switching Ireland and Wales around).
Play your conference opponents home and away (10 games). Then play inter conference like the 6Ns with alternating home/away each season (so 6 games).
Winners of each conference go straight into a semi final (getting home advantage).
Second place in (A) would host third place in (B), Second place in (B) would host third place in (A) in a wildcard/quarterfinal round.
Hosting of the final could be decided on regular season inter-conference results.

Lots of possibilities.

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What would happen when the Aviva clubs are still struggling to get out of their groups in the HC ? That's right, they would find something else to moan about, instead of taking their heads out of the sand and looking at their own system and denying to themselves that all the other countries around them are moving forward with a modern more complete player orientated system, a system where players are not flogged to death in search of a buck for the greedy owners, despite what Hersh and beshocked are saying, they know deep down that it's their system that needs changing and not ours. As it stands now, the English future lies along mediocre foreigners and beating up of any decent player to death by putting them through the rigmaroles of a long and battering season.

The aesthetic being that RP 12 teams look for long term solutions to success where as Premiership and Top 14 look for short term gains.

Longterm to me is investing more in youth rugby to find your talent, rather than short term, investing in expensive foreign players to get you success.

Well in general they have more money that is true so they are more able to purchase foreign imports & these players are less likely to be absent for critical games. I will repeat that CRITICAL games.

Anyone would think English clubs don't have academies. The difference in recent times is that the Regions are stoney broke & can't afford decent foreign imports that they used to buy( well certainly the Ospreys & Blues)

Most clubs have the mixture of decent academies & some foreign imports through necessity. It isn't one or the other.

If the money had been in Wales for their clubs to have survived as the French & English then they would be in the same position no doubt.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What would happen when the Aviva clubs are still struggling to get out of their groups in the HC ? That's right, they would find something else to moan about, instead of taking their heads out of the sand and looking at their own system and denying to themselves that all the other countries around them are moving forward with a modern more complete player orientated system, a system where players are not flogged to death in search of a buck for the greedy owners, despite what Hersh and beshocked are saying, they know deep down that it's their system that needs changing and not ours. As it stands now, the English future lies along mediocre foreigners and beating up of any decent player to death by putting them through the rigmaroles of a long and battering season.

The aesthetic being that RP 12 teams look for long term solutions to success where as Premiership and Top 14 look for short term gains.

Longterm to me is investing more in youth rugby to find your talent, rather than short term, investing in expensive foreign players to get you success.

Well in general they have more money that is true so they are more able to purchase foreign imports & these players are less likely to be absent for critical games. I will repeat that CRITICAL games.

Anyone would think English clubs don't have academies. The difference in recent times is that the Regions are stoney broke & can't afford decent foreign imports that they used to buy( well certainly the Ospreys & Blues)

Most clubs have the mixture of decent academies & some foreign imports through necessity. It isn't one or the other.

If the money had been in Wales for their clubs to have survived as the French & English then they would be in the same position no doubt.

I dont see the current short term gain strategy of buying in talent working in the long term for either the English Clubs or the French. We are already starting hear stories of clubs like Perpignan being stretched beyond their means to compete.

Only four English clubs turn a profit, I would be surprised if many more in France did.

The professional rugby used by England and France is not one adopted by the rest of the world. It may work there now but is certainly not a model to be copied.

Wales and Ireland are now constructing sustainable ways of running professional rugby and be competitive. I would imagine that England and France will follow sometime in the future. Harlequins seem to have adopted a more "Leinster" way of doing things than most of their rivals.. It is working for them, more will follow.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What would happen when the Aviva clubs are still struggling to get out of their groups in the HC ? That's right, they would find something else to moan about, instead of taking their heads out of the sand and looking at their own system and denying to themselves that all the other countries around them are moving forward with a modern more complete player orientated system, a system where players are not flogged to death in search of a buck for the greedy owners, despite what Hersh and beshocked are saying, they know deep down that it's their system that needs changing and not ours. As it stands now, the English future lies along mediocre foreigners and beating up of any decent player to death by putting them through the rigmaroles of a long and battering season.

The aesthetic being that RP 12 teams look for long term solutions to success where as Premiership and Top 14 look for short term gains.

Longterm to me is investing more in youth rugby to find your talent, rather than short term, investing in expensive foreign players to get you success.

Well in general they have more money that is true so they are more able to purchase foreign imports & these players are less likely to be absent for critical games. I will repeat that CRITICAL games.

Anyone would think English clubs don't have academies. The difference in recent times is that the Regions are stoney broke & can't afford decent foreign imports that they used to buy( well certainly the Ospreys & Blues)

Most clubs have the mixture of decent academies & some foreign imports through necessity. It isn't one or the other.

If the money had been in Wales for their clubs to have survived as the French & English then they would be in the same position no doubt.

I dont see the current short term gain strategy of buying in talent working in the long term for either the English Clubs or the French. We are already starting hear stories of clubs like Perpignan being stretched beyond their means to compete.

Only four English clubs turn a profit, I would be surprised if many more in France did.

The professional rugby used by England and France is not one adopted by the rest of the world. It may work there now but is certainly not a model to be copied.

Wales and Ireland are now constructing sustainable ways of running professional rugby and be competitive. I would imagine that England and France will follow sometime in the future. Harlequins seem to have adopted a more "Leinster" way of doing things than most of their rivals.. It is working for them, more will follow.

How many Regions turn profit? Possibly The Scarlets this season. Thats one in four. About the same oercentage as English clubs that make profit.
I support sustainability & that is why the rules were in place for promoted clubs from the Championship. Presumably you supported those rules to (if being consistent) which were laid down by the Union.

The reason French & English rugby clubs exist is because they are the only 2 countries where there are crowds willing to turn up to watch those number of teams. Additionally they have backers or companies that support them. It may not be sustainable but most have lasted longer than the Celtic Warriors or The Borders.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If the money had been in Wales for their clubs to have survived as the French & English then they would be in the same position no doubt.

Well the money wasn't there, and we did not survive so the simple fact is we are here now, the WRU are announcing record profits, the Welsh national team is now competitive on a world stage, anybody remember the dark day's of drubbings off our six nations rivals ? No longer do the Welsh teams go into competitions with blind optimism, they go into it with a decent chance of doing well and giving an account of themselves, our players are managed better than ever, so "OUR SYSTEM" the Rabo is working for us, just because it does not work for the English that's their gripe, if they do not like it perhaps they should change, I remember when England were at the fore front of professionalism, everybody else aspired to be like them, English rugby really took to the professional age with aplomb they were the trail blazers of the northern hemisphere if you like, now everybody else has not just caught up but they have over taken them as well, it is no secret, all the SH have embraced some sort of regionalism/provincialism and now the Celts and Italians have done it, the only others who are at the top table who continue to deny to themselves that this is the way to go are England and France, anybody who's anybody can see that the system these two countries are employing is dated, no longer can a top athlete get exposed to as much physical damage as much as the English and French players do, so what do they do ? They bring in outside players who can fill in the gaps for international players, and as soon as the top English/French players are back they are thrown straight back into the heart of the battle, for me this is what is needed to change, then perhaps they would be more competitive at the business end of things.

Also none of the English complain when the Welsh regions put out academy teams in the LV cup, why, because the English will mostly win those games and get into the HC, none of them moan about the Welsh regions "resting" players in that competition and "devaluing" it, I wonder why ? Isn't what goes on in the LV cup the same as what goes on in the Rabo ? Or does it not matter as it is to the advantage of the English ?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What would happen when the Aviva clubs are still struggling to get out of their groups in the HC ? That's right, they would find something else to moan about, instead of taking their heads out of the sand and looking at their own system and denying to themselves that all the other countries around them are moving forward with a modern more complete player orientated system, a system where players are not flogged to death in search of a buck for the greedy owners, despite what Hersh and beshocked are saying, they know deep down that it's their system that needs changing and not ours. As it stands now, the English future lies along mediocre foreigners and beating up of any decent player to death by putting them through the rigmaroles of a long and battering season.

The aesthetic being that RP 12 teams look for long term solutions to success where as Premiership and Top 14 look for short term gains.

Longterm to me is investing more in youth rugby to find your talent, rather than short term, investing in expensive foreign players to get you success.

Well in general they have more money that is true so they are more able to purchase foreign imports & these players are less likely to be absent for critical games. I will repeat that CRITICAL games.

Anyone would think English clubs don't have academies. The difference in recent times is that the Regions are stoney broke & can't afford decent foreign imports that they used to buy( well certainly the Ospreys & Blues)

Most clubs have the mixture of decent academies & some foreign imports through necessity. It isn't one or the other.

If the money had been in Wales for their clubs to have survived as the French & English then they would be in the same position no doubt.

I dont see the current short term gain strategy of buying in talent working in the long term for either the English Clubs or the French. We are already starting hear stories of clubs like Perpignan being stretched beyond their means to compete.

Only four English clubs turn a profit, I would be surprised if many more in France did.

The professional rugby used by England and France is not one adopted by the rest of the world. It may work there now but is certainly not a model to be copied.

Wales and Ireland are now constructing sustainable ways of running professional rugby and be competitive. I would imagine that England and France will follow sometime in the future. Harlequins seem to have adopted a more "Leinster" way of doing things than most of their rivals.. It is working for them, more will follow.

How many Regions turn profit? Possibly The Scarlets this season. Thats one in four. About the same oercentage as English clubs that make profit.
I support sustainability & that is why the rules were in place for promoted clubs from the Championship. Presumably you supported those rules to (if being consistent) which were laid down by the Union.

The reason French & English rugby clubs exist is because they are the only 2 countries where there are crowds willing to turn up to watch those number of teams. Additionally they have backers or companies that support them. It may not be sustainable but most have lasted longer than the Celtic Warriors or The Borders.

Can't speak for Boarders but the Welsh regions main failings are for a thwarted attempt to copy the English and French model, wealthy owner etc etc that failed.

I guess The Blues could be heading that way to?

The point is the so called youth policy that you talk of has come about because the Regions are broke. When they had more money they did the same as the French & English clubs. It hasn't been a change necessarily of choice but necessity.
I would argue that the youth policies both National and at lower level are as good in England & probably France but there is still the money to spend on more 'marque' players.
That would have been the case with the Regions except their finances have taken a nosedive & for all the big proclamations about the WRU making massive profits. The Regions haven't seen it, if they had they would have kept on to the likes of Byrne,Charteris etc & been in the market for more players like Holah & Rush who were outstanding for the Regions.

From confused to clueless through passionate to insightful.

Best thread on here in ages.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I guess The Blues could be heading that way to?

The point is the so called youth policy that you talk of has come about because the Regions are broke. When they had more money they did the same as the French & English clubs. It hasn't been a change necessarily of choice but necessity.
I would argue that the youth policies both National and at lower level are as good in England & probably France but there is still the money to spend on more 'marque' players.
That would have been the case with the Regions except their finances have taken a nosedive & for all the big proclamations about the WRU making massive profits. The Regions haven't seen it, if they had they would have kept on to the likes of Byrne,Charteris etc & been in the market for more players like Holah & Rush who were outstanding for the Regions.

Trev mate

No one disputes the way the regions are being run now is out of necessity, though it was a foreseen necesity seen before the regions started. It was always the idea from the start create a situation that benefited the best players in Welsh rugby. It was always the plan to reduce overseas players as the regional academies started to work. Now they are working the regions rely less on overseas players to compete against the elite of European rugby.

I think Ireland and Scotland have similar policies.

The profits made by the WRU are nothing to do with the regions accounting. But the regions will see the rewards very soon as the WRU announced on the same day the amount they are increasing funding in grassroots rugby, meaning a higher quantity of talented players being available.

Casartelli wrote:From confused to clueless through passionate to insightful.

Best thread on here in ages.

What parts do you find passionate and insightful ?

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I guess The Blues could be heading that way to?

The point is the so called youth policy that you talk of has come about because the Regions are broke. When they had more money they did the same as the French & English clubs. It hasn't been a change necessarily of choice but necessity.
I would argue that the youth policies both National and at lower level are as good in England & probably France but there is still the money to spend on more 'marque' players.
That would have been the case with the Regions except their finances have taken a nosedive & for all the big proclamations about the WRU making massive profits. The Regions haven't seen it, if they had they would have kept on to the likes of Byrne,Charteris etc & been in the market for more players like Holah & Rush who were outstanding for the Regions.

Trev mate

No one disputes the way the regions are being run now is out of necessity, though it was a foreseen necesity seen before the regions started. It was always the idea from the start create a situation that benefited the best players in Welsh rugby. It was always the plan to reduce overseas players as the regional academies started to work. Now they are working the regions rely less on overseas players to compete against the elite of European rugby.

I think Ireland and Scotland have similar policies.

The profits made by the WRU are nothing to do with the regions accounting. But the regions will see the rewards very soon as the WRU announced on the same day the amount they are increasing funding in grassroots rugby, meaning a higher quantity of talented players being available.

Any bold predictions on quarterfinal qualification in the HEC?

I admire your optimism about the Regions but only The Scarlets have improved slightly since last year the others have gone backwards & that is down to one thing.........money.

LordDowlais wrote:

Casartelli wrote:From confused to clueless through passionate to insightful.

Best thread on here in ages.

What parts do you find passionate and insightful ?

Blimey Dowlais - you always want more don't ya?

Okay, give me five and I will produce a more detailed critique of this ENTIRE THREAD, to save you scrolling up .....

Nah, you don't have to do that Cas, just tell me that it is my posts that you find passionate and insightful and I will walk away happy as a sand boy.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I guess The Blues could be heading that way to?

The point is the so called youth policy that you talk of has come about because the Regions are broke. When they had more money they did the same as the French & English clubs. It hasn't been a change necessarily of choice but necessity.
I would argue that the youth policies both National and at lower level are as good in England & probably France but there is still the money to spend on more 'marque' players.
That would have been the case with the Regions except their finances have taken a nosedive & for all the big proclamations about the WRU making massive profits. The Regions haven't seen it, if they had they would have kept on to the likes of Byrne,Charteris etc & been in the market for more players like Holah & Rush who were outstanding for the Regions.

Trev mate

No one disputes the way the regions are being run now is out of necessity, though it was a foreseen necesity seen before the regions started. It was always the idea from the start create a situation that benefited the best players in Welsh rugby. It was always the plan to reduce overseas players as the regional academies started to work. Now they are working the regions rely less on overseas players to compete against the elite of European rugby.

I think Ireland and Scotland have similar policies.

The profits made by the WRU are nothing to do with the regions accounting. But the regions will see the rewards very soon as the WRU announced on the same day the amount they are increasing funding in grassroots rugby, meaning a higher quantity of talented players being available.

Any bold predictions on quarterfinal qualification in the HEC?

No predictions as yet. Harlequins and Tigers look good, Saracens are efficient, Munster and Leinster are not having a great start but they are capable, Ospreys are showing signs that they are back to where they left off at the end of last season and Scarlets can cause anyone trouble.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I admire your optimism about the Regions but only The Scarlets have improved slightly since last year the others have gone backwards & that is down to one thing.........money.

Its not optimism, its the only way we can compete at club, regional or at International level. We don't have the luxury of wealth, a large population or the resultant large player pool to draw from. Remember you have a population of 53M people compared to our 3M, higher employment, and a massively larger GDP. We do what we can to survive at the game we love.



Regarding the regions not just Scarlets, the Ospreys and Dragons have definitely improved. Poor start by Ospreys but after three good kicks up the right place they look very handy now. Dragons lack strength and depth but they have some serious talent, they just miss the players surrounding that talent to be competitive with the better equipped sides they face game on game. Blues should be a lot better than they are, but they lack a front five to put them on the front foot.

Okay, as Dowlais insisted I do this, the 606v2 'Proper Pro 12 Discussion' Casartelli Academy Awards go to;

for insightfulness - neilthom7

for being both funny and insightful - Mickado

insightful and passionate (if a little lacking in fun) - Red Stag

confused - beshocked

confused (but always entertaining) - Maesteg Mafia

delegation - Lord Dowlais

but, overall, Best in Show goes to Kingshu.

The judging committee has only recently become aware of his work but he is consistently good. The Tana Umaga of 606v2 on current form, if you will.

Cas, how come you only have 720 posts to your name ? You always seem to pop up on threads all over the place, I would have sworn you have more than that paltry amount.

LordDowlais wrote:Cas, how come you only have 720 posts to your name ? You always seem to pop up on threads all over the place, I would have sworn you have more than that paltry amount.

An excellent question Dowlais and one I've been asked many times.

I always give the same answer;

In the list of billion selling authors, Barbara Cartland wrote over a thousand books.

Shakespeare? 44.

Always keep the powder dry.

Wow I just can't believe it I didn't expect to win but I'd just like to say thank you to my family and friends and to everyone who voted for this award, I'd like to say thank you to the organiser Cassartelli, and off course thank you to Dave Morgan and Jeremy Guscott, I couldn't have done it without you guys or the other contributors to this great production Lord Dowlais, Red Stag, Billtong etc
Thank You all

Morgannwg wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Like many you prefer style over substance. Can't say I blame you but then again I wouldn't enjoy seeing my side getting smashed by sides I would expect to beat.

Do you take glee when your defence is cut to pieces like a knife through hot butter? Saracens are boring indeed but they are tough, gritty and rarely allow their pants to be pulled down by the opposition. I like that about them. I take pride in my club side because they have a consistent mental toughness which many Pro12 should hope to aspire to. Very rarely do sides beat Saracens by more than 7.

Isn't that a bit like "Yes my wife is a ming bag, but boy she can cook"

Interpret it however you want. Personally I prefer a mentally tougher boring side over a mentally fragile exciting side. More wins. More chances at trophies.

It's nice to be both exciting and mentally tough but not every side has got that. Few sides can sustain both.

In regards to the Pro12 - to get better - more needs to be at stake. This means HC qualification. Less resting of players for HC.

Jenifer you're barking up the wrong tree here. What Beshocked is saying is that not only should the Rabo teams disadvantage themselves by entering less teams in europe, they should disadvantage themselves further by playing boring, try-less, saracenesque type rugby. A brand of rugby that always crumbles against the big boys like Leinster and Clermont.

Now can you go home to Dublin, tell your team to aspire to Sarries and then be able to sleep at night?

Don't crumble against the Ospreys though do they? Sarries can always beat the Ospreys.

I can't be bothered to post on this topic anymore - Morgannwg if you want to continue your petty arguments then we'll do it on another thread.

Excellent read, everyone, well done.

Some blindingly, howlingly obvious points (in my pea sized brain):

1. No participant in one league (Top 14, Rabo or Jeff) has any right whatsoever to suggest that another league change its structure because of a one-off cross-league annual tournament.

The structure of each league has been set up to accommodate the financial constraints, historial boundaries, domestic club conventions and commercial realities of each of its participants who have to continue as viable financial and sporting enterprises throughout the term of their own domestic leagues. I presume that the current structures of each league represented the best thinking at the time and in the professional era offers each club or franchise the best chance granted by each league's organising body to let the average participant operate to its optimum.

To suggest that a league introduce relegation or alternative management to reflect the financial motivations of another sounds fine until you drink a big cup of perspective and think about how many businesses, individuals, sponsors and fans it affects. Then you realise it's an outrageous imposition.

2. This issue about clubs resting players in order to stuff its HC sides with box fresh internationals has been over-emphasisied to a point at which people have stopped bring objective as to its practical effect. No Rabo teams play each year "only" for the HC. Get real. Any Rabo team would take winning their domestic league over being knocked out of a HC quarter final any day of the week. One of those arguments that sounds great but has no bearing on the lives of professional atheletes who judge success by the number of things that they win.

3. What I do agree on is that the best teams, regardless of nationality, should be those which qualify. Nationality doesn't matter - we shouldn't have quotas - the ERC is not a charitable organisation. It would be lovely to say that all three leagues should have identical numbers of matches with identical scoring systems and the highest point scoring 24 teams from all three leagues would be the HC qualifiers but I suspect that the machinations for reducing numbers of teams in the Top 14 would not be accepted by the French. It will also not stop other teams moaning at how much more "difficult" they perceive their league to be.

4. The fact that most people agree the competition should be merit-based means that the issue of how popular teams are in terms of fan base and attendances could not be less relevant. I simply don't see the issue of how many people support which club is determinative of anything. That's a variable whose principal fluctuating factor is the populus of nearly conurbations. This is not Jim'll Fix It For Most People. If you are running the argument that it's fair to pander to most fans, then pander to the majority of fans of the sport (who number several multiples of those who express an allegiance for any particular club) who will watch high quality rugby, regardless of who is playing.

5. Suddenly announcing the Sky TV deal was indefensibly amateurish in terms of business practice, to say nothing of simple courtesy. There are ways to unpick commercial arrangements that no longer work for you. Pretending publicly that they don't exist in the first place is not one of them.

6. Here's a completely batsh!t notion. I think that the teams that have won the HC in recent years have had the best collective of players who have performed most consistently over a number of matches. Sorry Jeremy.

The ways I would would improve the Rabo is by looking at other leagues.

1. I like that the S15 is the best from each country and that it helps to bring different styles together - The Rabo is doing this

2. I don't like the conference system of the S15 as it is unfair and does not little to help make the league a league - I don't want to see this

3. I like the the Japanesse league has teams where they are not allowed to kick the ball and get fined if they do - the Rabo teams are doing this in a way to advance style and skills and I think the 4 unions having their own rules on the teams add to development of the league as teams have to adapt to diffenerent styles

4. I like that the T14 is financailly viable on its own - I would like this to happen in the Rabbo and I like that attendances are going up each year. I do think that the league is getting attendances up but should bring in penalties for people that are doing enough to grow it.

5. I love the rivalry in the T14 and Aviva - I think this is growing as more people are winning away from home and there is more handbags in games ( I think a sign of now much the players want it)

6. I love how teams like Tigers and now Sarries and Toulouse can change players from one game to the next or from one season to the next (and when the bench is emptied) and keep up the same standards - I think this is happening more and more in the Rabo and there is not the massive drop off there use to be. I would say outside most teams top 5 players it is a toss up as to which of the two options are better.

7. I love how teams can progress such as saints - Ulster two years ago played the same 15 each week unless there was an injury or forced rest. Last year they rotated and this year they are unbeleivable and many would fight over who should be in the 15 and 22 for match days. They have gone from nearly bottom to top.

8. I like how teams like Biarriatz and others who don't take their league seriously can finish near the bottom - Ask edinbrugh. One difference is the Bz turned it around quickly when they focused on the T14 Edinburgh were not allowed to move up as the teams were all fighting for there place be it 10th or 7th

beshocked wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Like many you prefer style over substance. Can't say I blame you but then again I wouldn't enjoy seeing my side getting smashed by sides I would expect to beat.

Do you take glee when your defence is cut to pieces like a knife through hot butter? Saracens are boring indeed but they are tough, gritty and rarely allow their pants to be pulled down by the opposition. I like that about them. I take pride in my club side because they have a consistent mental toughness which many Pro12 should hope to aspire to. Very rarely do sides beat Saracens by more than 7.

Isn't that a bit like "Yes my wife is a ming bag, but boy she can cook"

Interpret it however you want. Personally I prefer a mentally tougher boring side over a mentally fragile exciting side. More wins. More chances at trophies.

It's nice to be both exciting and mentally tough but not every side has got that. Few sides can sustain both.

In regards to the Pro12 - to get better - more needs to be at stake. This means HC qualification. Less resting of players for HC.

Jenifer you're barking up the wrong tree here. What Beshocked is saying is that not only should the Rabo teams disadvantage themselves by entering less teams in europe, they should disadvantage themselves further by playing boring, try-less, saracenesque type rugby. A brand of rugby that always crumbles against the big boys like Leinster and Clermont.

Now can you go home to Dublin, tell your team to aspire to Sarries and then be able to sleep at night?

Don't crumble against the Ospreys though do they? Sarries can always beat the Ospreys.

I can't be bothered to post on this topic anymore - Morgannwg if you want to continue your petty arguments then we'll do it on another thread.

beshocked, now this is a genuine question, not a WUM. Whenever you reply to me why do you frequently bring up the fact Saracens beat the Ospreys when they last played against each other in the Heineken Cup? The Ospreys haven't really got a good record in Europe and you wouldn't hear any French fans constantly bigging up a win over them. Plus they aren't my local region, so why do you keep repeating yourself as I'm sure I have told you this before?

Morgannwg, he also accuses people of saying things that they have not said, I am still waiting for my apology for him using me as an excuse for bringing up a non event on this thread. I have not mentioned his beloved Sarries once, I have no axe to grind with them at all really.

Yeah and now I want an apology from him for having to see the word "Sarries" in this article. We were Saracens-free until he walked in.

I actually think Shokt is actually probably a decent enough chap. He can be reasonable in his posting, and he doesn't WUM to much.

He does seem to have several pre conceived notions in his head though, and when they are challenged or disproved he comes back a few days or weeks later with the same notions. No matter how many times it happens.

This can be frustrating. Guys like Hersh do this just to wind people up for the crack.

But if someone is not winding people up, then they are either pig headed, forgetful or just a bit thick.

Not sure what category to put him in.

And yes, of course I was trying to wind him up with the ugly wife comment.

Great, now back to the rugby chat...

Brendan wrote:The ways I would would improve the Rabo is by looking at other leagues.

1. I like that the S15 is the best from each country and that it helps to bring different styles together - The Rabo is doing this

2. I don't like the conference system of the S15 as it is unfair and does not little to help make the league a league - I don't want to see this

3. I like the the Japanesse league has teams where they are not allowed to kick the ball and get fined if they do - the Rabo teams are doing this in a way to advance style and skills and I think the 4 unions having their own rules on the teams add to development of the league as teams have to adapt to diffenerent styles

4. I like that the T14 is financailly viable on its own - I would like this to happen in the Rabbo and I like that attendances are going up each year. I do think that the league is getting attendances up but should bring in penalties for people that are doing enough to grow it.

5. I love the rivalry in the T14 and Aviva - I think this is growing as more people are winning away from home and there is more handbags in games ( I think a sign of now much the players want it)

6. I love how teams like Tigers and now Sarries and Toulouse can change players from one game to the next or from one season to the next (and when the bench is emptied) and keep up the same standards - I think this is happening more and more in the Rabo and there is not the massive drop off there use to be. I would say outside most teams top 5 players it is a toss up as to which of the two options are better.

7. I love how teams can progress such as saints - Ulster two years ago played the same 15 each week unless there was an injury or forced rest. Last year they rotated and this year they are unbeleivable and many would fight over who should be in the 15 and 22 for match days. They have gone from nearly bottom to top.

8. I like how teams like Biarriatz and others who don't take their league seriously can finish near the bottom - Ask edinbrugh. One difference is the Bz turned it around quickly when they focused on the T14 Edinburgh were not allowed to move up as the teams were all fighting for there place be it 10th or 7th

I agree with many of your ideas and observations, hadn't heard about the non kicking Japanese league...! I dont think that would be a massive benefit, but it may be. Certainly be interesting to see younger players, like U18s play a non kicking game.

George Carlin wrote:Excellent read, everyone, well done.

Some blindingly, howlingly obvious points (in my pea sized brain):

1. No participant in one league (Top 14, Rabo or Jeff) has any right whatsoever to suggest that another league change its structure because of a one-off cross-league annual tournament.

The structure of each league has been set up to accommodate the financial constraints, historial boundaries, domestic club conventions and commercial realities of each of its participants who have to continue as viable financial and sporting enterprises throughout the term of their own domestic leagues. I presume that the current structures of each league represented the best thinking at the time and in the professional era offers each club or franchise the best chance granted by each league's organising body to let the average participant operate to its optimum.

To suggest that a league introduce relegation or alternative management to reflect the financial motivations of another sounds fine until you drink a big cup of perspective and think about how many businesses, individuals, sponsors and fans it affects. Then you realise it's an outrageous imposition.

2. This issue about clubs resting players in order to stuff its HC sides with box fresh internationals has been over-emphasisied to a point at which people have stopped bring objective as to its practical effect. No Rabo teams play each year "only" for the HC. Get real. Any Rabo team would take winning their domestic league over being knocked out of a HC quarter final any day of the week. One of those arguments that sounds great but has no bearing on the lives of professional atheletes who judge success by the number of things that they win.

3. What I do agree on is that the best teams, regardless of nationality, should be those which qualify. Nationality doesn't matter - we shouldn't have quotas - the ERC is not a charitable organisation. It would be lovely to say that all three leagues should have identical numbers of matches with identical scoring systems and the highest point scoring 24 teams from all three leagues would be the HC qualifiers but I suspect that the machinations for reducing numbers of teams in the Top 14 would not be accepted by the French. It will also not stop other teams moaning at how much more "difficult" they perceive their league to be.

4. The fact that most people agree the competition should be merit-based means that the issue of how popular teams are in terms of fan base and attendances could not be less relevant. I simply don't see the issue of how many people support which club is determinative of anything. That's a variable whose principal fluctuating factor is the populus of nearly conurbations. This is not Jim'll Fix It For Most People. If you are running the argument that it's fair to pander to most fans, then pander to the majority of fans of the sport (who number several multiples of those who express an allegiance for any particular club) who will watch high quality rugby, regardless of who is playing.

5. Suddenly announcing the Sky TV deal was indefensibly amateurish in terms of business practice, to say nothing of simple courtesy. There are ways to unpick commercial arrangements that no longer work for you. Pretending publicly that they don't exist in the first place is not one of them.

6. Here's a completely batsh!t notion. I think that the teams that have won the HC in recent years have had the best collective of players who have performed most consistently over a number of matches. Sorry Jeremy.

George, a very mature, objective and well thought out post mate. well done.

Biltong wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Excellent read, everyone, well done.

Some blindingly, howlingly obvious points (in my pea sized brain):

1. No participant in one league (Top 14, Rabo or Jeff) has any right whatsoever to suggest that another league change its structure because of a one-off cross-league annual tournament.

The structure of each league has been set up to accommodate the financial constraints, historial boundaries, domestic club conventions and commercial realities of each of its participants who have to continue as viable financial and sporting enterprises throughout the term of their own domestic leagues. I presume that the current structures of each league represented the best thinking at the time and in the professional era offers each club or franchise the best chance granted by each league's organising body to let the average participant operate to its optimum.

To suggest that a league introduce relegation or alternative management to reflect the financial motivations of another sounds fine until you drink a big cup of perspective and think about how many businesses, individuals, sponsors and fans it affects. Then you realise it's an outrageous imposition.

2. This issue about clubs resting players in order to stuff its HC sides with box fresh internationals has been over-emphasisied to a point at which people have stopped bring objective as to its practical effect. No Rabo teams play each year "only" for the HC. Get real. Any Rabo team would take winning their domestic league over being knocked out of a HC quarter final any day of the week. One of those arguments that sounds great but has no bearing on the lives of professional atheletes who judge success by the number of things that they win.

3. What I do agree on is that the best teams, regardless of nationality, should be those which qualify. Nationality doesn't matter - we shouldn't have quotas - the ERC is not a charitable organisation. It would be lovely to say that all three leagues should have identical numbers of matches with identical scoring systems and the highest point scoring 24 teams from all three leagues would be the HC qualifiers but I suspect that the machinations for reducing numbers of teams in the Top 14 would not be accepted by the French. It will also not stop other teams moaning at how much more "difficult" they perceive their league to be.

4. The fact that most people agree the competition should be merit-based means that the issue of how popular teams are in terms of fan base and attendances could not be less relevant. I simply don't see the issue of how many people support which club is determinative of anything. That's a variable whose principal fluctuating factor is the populus of nearly conurbations. This is not Jim'll Fix It For Most People. If you are running the argument that it's fair to pander to most fans, then pander to the majority of fans of the sport (who number several multiples of those who express an allegiance for any particular club) who will watch high quality rugby, regardless of who is playing.

5. Suddenly announcing the Sky TV deal was indefensibly amateurish in terms of business practice, to say nothing of simple courtesy. There are ways to unpick commercial arrangements that no longer work for you. Pretending publicly that they don't exist in the first place is not one of them.

6. Here's a completely batsh!t notion. I think that the teams that have won the HC in recent years have had the best collective of players who have performed most consistently over a number of matches. Sorry Jeremy.

George, a very mature, objective and well thought out post mate. well done.

+1 George and brings it back on topic, away from petty infighting.

Non kicking Japenese League sounds a good idea for player development (except for outhalfs).

George, love the post pal. Great job.

Personally I think kicking is very important. However we see too many garryowens and aimless punts. I feel that an arsenal of chip kicks, grubber kicks, spiral kicks into the corner are vitally important in keeping modern blitz defenses from constant just rushing up.

Lets also add to this discussion Brian Moores view;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/9547001/The-French-clubs-hold-the-key-in-war-over-European-rugbys-riches.html

As I said, I think it represents the English view of the Pro 12. Both Guscott and Moore, represent these in the media.

With the non kicking, it is certain teams and not the whole league.

I do think that they should have a limit on the types of kicks they can do as Stag says we need more of a mixture then just aimless kicking.

Too many Scum halves box kick just for the sake of it and I would love to see them limited to 5 per game by the manager. Make them use the mind and not just get rid of the ball.

Brendan,

Are you really making him use the mind if you do it that way.

I see no value whatsoever in saying that a scrumhalf can do 5 box kicks per match or 3 of them or 1.

If he boxkicks or a flyhalf does a garryowen which was the wrong option then I would expect a coach to help him choose his decision more carefully whether it was the 1st or 10th time it happened.

All these kicks have a purpose but the garryowen, the scrum half box kick and the aimless punt are over played and used now at inappropriate times. But they have a purpose.