Well lets have a proper Pro 12 Discussion, and ways to improve it, constructive please not WUMS.

First topic message reminder :

Here's Jeremy Guscott's View

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19803591

Hi Jerry, after watching two truly awful performances this weekend from the Blues and Leinster (both quarter-finalists in last year's Heineken Cup) we can't really blame England and France for wanting changes in the Heineken. The RaboDirect Pro12 is an absolute joke! No wonder attendances aren't great, it's being treated like a glorified training session by some teams. Dave Morgan

Hi Dave, I believe the Pro12 teams have an opportunity to play the game as the Super XV do but haven't realised it yet; the sooner they do, the better the performances will be. I accept the weather conditions are different but not for the entire season.

The Pro12 at the moment has the better players compared to the English Premiership in terms of possible Lions, but the brand of rugby isn't commensurate with the superior ability. It needs the top players playing more regularly and the teams' attitude has to be to produce an enviable product that will have the supporters wanting to watch.


Well there's one person thought's, it seams to be a widely held view in England (rightly or wrongly).

Do you feel the Pro 12 needs to make changes?

As to improving the Rabo i'm not honestly sure there is much that can be done to improve it artificially. I would give it two years to see where attendances go. The issue over "improving" depends greatly on what you want it to be. That's an issue for the participating unions and regions.

On the whole HC issue it seems that the PRL and TOP 14 have said a few times that we aren't happy with it and want to discuss changes and have been told that everyone else is happy so that is an end of it. They seem to have said in response that we aren't happy and so have taken these actions, some of which have seemed very inflammatory.
If the other union and ERC members refused to discuss what the PRL and T14 thought as legitimate issues then whether or not you agree with either side, that was a silly position to for ERC to take.

Kingshu,

seems to me that this thread has gone off-topic from your OP.

HC qualification is one current proposal that will affect Pro12 if it comes into effect, for better or worse. There are many threads in which it has been done to death.

There are many other ways of affecting Pro12, either by tweaks or widespread changes

But what actually needs improving?

The improvement of playing standards is a given - if you're not continually striving to improve, then you're going backwards. However, there's a balance between improving your frontline squad against improving the wider, developing squad. So, introduce an A league or hijack the B&I Cup?

Sponsors and broadcasters (and bums on seats?) would probably prefer to see more frontline players more of the time, and might pay more if they do. Unions want to be able to select uninjured players at the top of their game for their internationals.
So, does length of season and playing in IW's come into play? Should Pro12 be reduced in size, or the Welsh banned from the LV Cup, or Unions be forced to adhere to the IRB IW selection regulations as a maximum rather than a minimum?
Perhaps the league season can be reduced by playing 2 geographic conferences of 6 (10 rounds) qualifying for 2 meritocratic conferences of 6 (another 10 rounds)? A total of 20 rounds against 22.

A structured season - playing the league in one block. What will that improve? It can be argued that a league, followed by euro, followed by internationals is a logical way of building up the season - I'm not convinced either way.

Attractive rugby - I have no idea if the format of a league will tend to affect playing styles. Weather does, though - summer rugby?

Hersh, the issue here is not the precentage representation, the RABO nations decided to go to Regional teams for financial reasons and probably a few other reasons as well, it has been to their benefit.

If the English and French Unions decide to go regional they will be in the same situation, the decision is theirs.

The thing is we have a bigger fan base plus lets be honest it doesn't work otherwise a Welsh team would have won the HC by now.

Not quite sure what relevance attendances has to do with this...? That's how it's a WUM. Assuming I'm going to rise to your bait. Na.

Kingshu sums it up perfectly.

HERSH wrote:Your right Miaow they didn't but we're not the ones with poor attendances week in week out like some teams have in the Rabo, plus the contract is nearing it's end so the English and French clubs are well within their rights to question the qualifying criteria for the HC.

Why is this so hard to understand.

Also how the Frak is that a WUM?

Why change our qualificaton when you can change your own?.

How about instead of changing the Pro 12, the Prem reduces in Size to 8 teams and ring fence it, that way you will have 75% representation in the HC, same as RABO. Its what we decided to do, and you are free to follow the successfull model if you wish.

Biltong wrote:Hersh, the issue here is not the precentage representation, the RABO nations decided to go to Regional teams for financial reasons and probably a few other reasons as well, it has been to their benefit.

If the English and French Unions decide to go regional they will be in the same situation, the decision is theirs.

A fair point, so the French and English aren't happy so they should change as there is nothing wrong with the structure at the moment, or the RABO should change to accomodate the whims of the PRL/T14.
This arguement keeps going circular as people take a binary position that one side or the other is wrong.

If we cannot find a way to square the circle then the HC will fail to the detriment of everyone.

The PRL/T14 do have legitimate greivances, but so do the RABO unions who do not see why they should change to alleviate said greviances.

Biltong, you have had the R12 side of the debate, ably articulated by stag and others.

The other side of the coin is that the french and english clubs made a strategic mistake a decade ago to allow Union franchises to enter a club competition. That was always eventually going to be incompatible because fewer centralised teams with elite players with Test experience will potentially (not always) outmuscle smaller privately owned clubs. In this particular scenario the clubs however have the advantage of larger tv audiences.

On the old 606 there were numerous debates about the RFU wanting to enter fewer representative sides into a Euro competition and at the time the clubs won because they had the player contracts and need the euro tv coin. Wales and Scotland were allowed to bar their historic clubs from entering on the basis that the country couldn't afford professional teams. The reality was that the Unions could not and did not want to relinquish control to private individuals/corporates.

You asked on another post whether rugby should by logic follow the Aussie cricket model with centralised control and limited access for players and fans alike.

Rugby in England and France has moved on commercially from a decade ago where their domestic leagues are generating ever larger crowds and tv contracts and the BT contract is an ominous sign for the R12 Unions and they know it and have kept quiet waiting to see the numbers.

Perhaps the french and English should just enter 3 teams each into a euro competition and see how much the broadcasters will pay for it. They will always take the deal but no longer need the euro money as the real money is in their domestic leagues. The euro competition can then scrap all pretence at being a club competition and be Test trials comp like the S15 and in part you can have your Aussie cricket model.

Yawn miaow very yawn.

I think attendances have everything to do with it, we could survive without the HC I'm not too sure all the Rabo teams would, 6 of them have less than 5000 average, they know it too hence why they are desperate to hold onto the dying HC format.

Even London Welsh have an average gate above 5000, puts it into perspective doesn't it.

The French and English wanting to reduce the teams is a nice olive branch to cutting the amount of Rabbo teams. Whether this would provide a better competition or not is only for the future to tell.

I do agree that it would be better for all elite European teams to have to play less rugby. 15 seems to be an even better number down south. Maybe it would be good to have just 15 or 16 teams...?

I dont have a problem with cutting the numbers, or qualification of Rabbo teams at all. What I do have an issue with would be not including nations.

This is a European competition and it is a big earner for those involved, therefor it is for the good of rugby that everyone has a share of the pie, even if it is only one slice in 20 or 16 or whichever number works best.

Those excluded from the Elite European cups qualify for the second tier European Challenge Cup (Amlin Cup). They would surely strengthen the Amlin as a whole and make that a more difficult and more worthy competition.

What the issues with the current ERC, PRL, French Clubs debate are that a). they used automatic qualification as an example of European success, when no side who has automatically qualified has ever reached a final let alone won the Competition, and b). the underhanded manner in which the PRL are trying to get what the club owners, they represent, want.

The Celtic/Latin RP12 is a great league with plenty of strength, rarely do teams drop star players without very good reason. The only thing that will strengthen the league is for the weaker teams to improve.

Excluding those teams from elite competition will not help.

If they're not good enough to get in the main event there is always the Amlin.

What can zebre learn from the HC that they couldn't learn in the Amlin.

It's a joke

HERSH wrote:Yawn miaow very yawn.

I think attendances have everything to do with it, we could survive without the HC I'm not too sure all the Rabo teams would, 6 of them have less than 5000 average, they know it too hence why they are desperate to hold onto the dying HC format.

Even London Welsh have an average gate above 5000, puts it into perspective doesn't it.

The first one is tautology, the second one is codology.

The HC 'club' competition is a mythology....

HERSH wrote:
Even London Welsh have an average gate above 5000, puts it into perspective doesn't it.

THAT IS NOT STRICTLY TRUE...! BEND STATISTICS HOW EVER YOU WANT, BELOW ARE THE FACTS.

Vs Glaws HOME Att: 4,548 (AVERAGE AWAY ATTENDENCE FOR GLAWS 11,065) DOWN BY 6000 AT LW

Vs Sale AWAY Att: 7,479 (2011-12 Season Average Gate is 7,465) So down when played LW

Vs Exeter HOME Att: 6,045 (AVERAGE AWAY ATTENDENCE FOR EXETER 11,505) DOWN BY 5000 AT LW

Vs Quins AWAY Att: 12,550 (2011-12 Season Average Gate is 13,054) So down when played LW

Vs Tigers HOME Att: 6,850 (AVERAGE AWAY ATTENDENCE FOR TIGERS 11,013) DOWN BY 4000 AT LW

London Welsh average 5,322 so far this season.

It’s a stat so what’s the problem, it’s the truth?

Maybe people don't want to see the 5th unofficial Region because they have no star players, Which brings me back to my biggest bug bare of the Rabo too many of the big name players are rested too often, hence why people won't pay good money to watch the games in the flesh.

F A C T.

I've said my piece, have a good evening my fellow 606ers

They are not rested Hersh - they are rotated - so that they are all always fit for HC and 6N games.
English club players are rotated but somehow seem to get injured more and miss HC and 6N games - must just be soft and not as physically hard as R12 players......

HERSH wrote:London Welsh average 5,322 so far this season.

Its a stat so whats the problem, its the truth?

Maybe people don't want to see the 5th unofficial Region because they have no star palyers.

Its a stat heavily weighted by travelling fans from the teams that LW are playing. LW claim that their Attendance of LW fans is around 3000 not over 5000.

In fact looking at most of the English Premiership teams home attendances, compared to the teams they have played's travelling support, London Irish, Exeter, Sale and Worcester are not much better than London Welsh.

Considering how much easier it is to travel between say Exeter RFC and Sale RFC than it is to get from Parma to Edinburgh not even a direct flight, travel takes 7 hours and 35 minutes at a cost of over £120 I would say that the attendances for all Rabbo Pro 12 teams are very good.

Okay.................. now why does AP get 6 places?

Why does Top14 not get more?

Why oh why does what one set of 12 do have to be exactly the same as what the other set of 12 do? - and yet all the while neither set of 12 matches the number of games played or the extra efforts made by the set of 14?

In order to genuinely equalise the path to a Premier European Competition, why don't we simply say nobody has any guaranteed places for any specific league and rather that the top 24 sides on points gained in the season get through by right. Amlin competition could then be organised around some of the non-successful sides and the 'European' element the PRL speak so lovingly of

No direct guarantee that in any given year you'll be in HEC and no guarantee in any given year for any side that they won't be in Amlin.

So, based on that criteria; 2012 HEC would have had 10 French sides, 7 Pro12 sides and 7 AP sides. (10 French, 7 English, 3 Irish, 3 Welsh and 1 Scottish)

Interestingly enough 2011 would have had the exact same breakdown per league and per nation.

2010 goes askew as the Celtic league didn't have the extra two Italian sides involved back then and therefore suffer the consequence of having four games less to play than AP and eight games less to play than Top14. In that year the breakdown would have been 13 French sides, 8 AP sides and 3 Celtic League sides (1 Irish, 1 Welsh and 1 Scottish)

As is clear, Top 14 would be amassing more points per year but you could argue that because they have more games to play, the benefit is balanced by the effort needed.

So;
No Guaranteed rights issues - all sides must fight equally with constant attention paid to how the 'best' in other leagues are progressing.
No guaranteed 6 spots or 3 spots.
No League format verses league format excuses.
Best sides in theory, and in practice, actually do get in.

New question would arise of course. Why don't France reduce their Top14 to 12, to completely level the field? Something they're never asked about at present.

Well didn't your unions think of that before you agreed to join together?

That was poorly thought out then wasn't it.

So there is another reason why the Rabo teams really need the HC money just to survive.

That would create a potentially epic final day of the league Fly.

Hersh your still ignoring, Why the Pro 12 needs to change qualification, and not the French and English?


Bringing in issues about attendance? Surly thats a Pro 12 feature, and not in the RFU mandate.

Kingshu wrote:

HERSH wrote:Your right Miaow they didn't but we're not the ones with poor attendances week in week out like some teams have in the Rabo, plus the contract is nearing it's end so the English and French clubs are well within their rights to question the qualifying criteria for the HC.

Why is this so hard to understand.

Also how the Frak is that a WUM?

Why change our qualificaton when you can change your own?.

How about instead of changing the Pro 12, the Prem reduces in Size to 8 teams and ring fence it, that way you will have 75% representation in the HC, same as RABO. Its what we decided to do, and you are free to follow the successfull model if you wish.

HERSH wrote:London Welsh average 5,322 so far this season.

It’s a stat so what’s the problem, it’s the truth?

Maybe people don't want to see the 5th unofficial Region because they have no star players, Which brings me back to my biggest bug bare of the Rabo too many of the big name players are rested too often, hence why people won't pay good money to watch the games in the flesh.

F A C T.

I've said my piece, have a good evening my fellow 606ers

People pay to see their team winning, firstly - then the autograph seeking. Now, those 'big name players' don't play in league and the fans don't like that so they stay away? Are these the specific League fans or the HEC fans? Do the sides have distinctive fanbases divided amongst those that want their side to progress at League and those that don't care about league and only want the HEC?

If 'big name players' are rested during a league season, that means the likelihood is that the fans are going to get to see them at HEC time. Now if they've been rested well enough - and are still sharp enough to play against heavy duty APers and Top14ers - then the likelihood is that the fans will see more of their 'big name players' during the HEC campaign than the fans of the sides that have beaten their 'big name players' to death in the lesser league.

Hersh will say it's a travesty to call AP or any league lesser than the HEC. If it is, then I'm guilty because that's how I and quite a number of my countrymen view it. HEC is the step -up, it is better quality and it's when I want to see my best players last longer.

There is another option!

included all the Jeff, Rabo and top14 teams in the HC.

Job done everyones happy.

A Euro League?

Well what about the bloody Russians and Portugese? The PRL want them lads in... that's going to be one massive league...Not all our big name lads are going to like getting out of bed so much, Hersh

HERSH wrote:Which brings me back to my biggest bug bare of the Rabo too many of the big name players are rested too often, hence why people won't pay good money to watch the games in the flesh.

F A C T.

I've said my piece, have a good evening my fellow 606ers

Thats a load of tosh too.

Can anyone name any player in the Rabbo who is a star player and is not playing unless they are injured or out of form being usurped by a better performer?

I cant think of any...?????

We could print all the lists of all the players playing these last five weeks to prove a point.

The Rabo is improving every season. This season has been the best yet.

In the long term the best way to improve the Rabo is to get more fans to attend matches. This especially applies to any team with less than an 8,000 average attendance. This would help the smaller teams to keep hold of their players.

Kinshu - if you want a different perspective, read my 3.15pm post.....

Perhaps the french and English should just enter three teams too.

HERSH wrote:There is another option!

included all the Jeff, Rabo and Super14 teams in the HC.

Job done everyones happy.

Wow, bringing in the Southern Hem too


More seriously,

If you add in 2 more teams from "rest of Europe" you get 8 pools of 5. Top 2 in each pool go into an elite 16 team HEC, next 2 into an Amlin comp, last in each pool drop into a 3rd tier comp (the best performed rest of Europe teams there qualify for next season's 40)

Epic.

maestegmafia wrote:

HERSH wrote:Which brings me back to my biggest bug bare of the Rabo too many of the big name players are rested too often, hence why people won't pay good money to watch the games in the flesh.

F A C T.

I've said my piece, have a good evening my fellow 606ers

Thats a load of tosh too.

Can anyone name any player in the Rabbo who is a star player and is not playing unless they are injured or out of form being usurped by a better performer?

I cant think of any...?????

We could print all the lists of all the players playing these last five weeks to prove a point.

And are any of our 'star' players really considered stars anyway? I always remember the line from the Sky guys when Leinster were meeting Clermont last year. Leinster were the star side, the European champions with the big European names and the Sky guys were suggesting Leinster could be up against it now...afterall, Clermont were stuffed with the 'star players'. Sometimes you never can win...even when you're winning.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

HERSH wrote:There is another option!

included all the Jeff, Rabo and Super14 teams in the HC.

Job done everyones happy.

Wow, bringing in the Southern Hem too


More seriously,

If you add in 2 more teams from "rest of Europe" you get 8 pools of 5. Top 2 in each pool go into an elite 16 team HEC, next 2 into an Amlin comp, last in each pool drop into a 3rd tier comp (the best performed rest of Europe teams there qualify for next season's 40)

Epic.

Sounds good.

I'll go for that

profitius wrote:The Rabo is improving every season. This season has been the best yet.

In the long term the best way to improve the Rabo is to get more fans to attend matches. This especially applies to any team with less than an 8,000 average attendance. This would help the smaller teams to keep hold of their players.

Yes you are right... I know that we are trying very hard in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy to get attendances as large as possible.

Average Attendances 2012-13 Season so far.

Leinster 16,759
Munster 15,353
Scarlets 10,335
Ulster 9,208
Ospreys 7,863
Cardiff Blues 7,421
Connacht 4,585
Gwent Dragons 4,540
Benetton Treviso 4,500
Edinburgh Reivers 3,796
Glasgow Caledonians 3,769
Zebre 2,025

HERSH wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

HERSH wrote:There is another option!

included all the Jeff, Rabo and Super14 teams in the HC.

Job done everyones happy.

Wow, bringing in the Southern Hem too


More seriously,

If you add in 2 more teams from "rest of Europe" you get 8 pools of 5. Top 2 in each pool go into an elite 16 team HEC, next 2 into an Amlin comp, last in each pool drop into a 3rd tier comp (the best performed rest of Europe teams there qualify for next season's 40)

Epic.

Sounds good.

I'll go for that

For most teams it becomes win win. Everyone plays the same number of pool matches as before, then there's an extra round-of-16 in the cup*. You have a pot of TV rights money paid out on a participation basis, with prize money for levels reached in the Cup. Effectively you need 2 more "Europe" weekends in the season. I suspect the French might say "non" to the extra couple of games involved unfortunately.

Seedings could be calculated based on a combination of performance in respective leagues and European games last season (the league component helps level out any blips in the Euro pool draws, the Euro component rewards whichever league happens to be stronger the previous year. Teams who are no longer in the playoff race for their respective leagues still have seedings to play for in the league near end of season.

Does anyone want to polish this up and send it off to ERC?



* Anternately you could then do a 2nd pool round to find 4 semi-finalists, but that would really cut into the leagues season.

Nobody listens to ERC...................... or ideas. We all want what's ours...and we want it now!
No negotiation just nice proper, lovely-jubbly internecine warfare.

But what if all these changes are made, this makes the Rabbo 12 teams stronger, they continue to do better than the English Prem teams...?

Does that mean English clubs will want to change the rules to suit them even more, or do you think they will then accept the fault is not in the competition but elsewhere...?

maestegmafia wrote:But what if all these changes are made, this makes the Rabbo 12 teams stronger, they continue to do better than the English Prem teams...?

Does that mean English clubs will want to change the rules to suit them even more, or do you think they will then accept the fault is not in the competition but elsewhere...?

No idea Maes.

It'd give them much less of a case to demand changes at least. They'd be getting more money (as I think that comp would be worth more than the current HEC/Rabo) from TV, plus there'd be some lucrative derby pool matches (12 English teams into 8 pools) for good away crowds.

I think my HEC/Amlin idea would improve the Rabo in terms of reducing dead rubbers. And the less-successful Rabo teams would get more European matches than they do now, which ought to be good for player development.


It's a moot point though, seeing as the French won't tolerate an increase in matches.

I think the competition should be shorter. It would suit all of us to have a smaller more competitive HEC. I think the SH model is so much more sensible, where different levels of rugby are played on block, S15, International and NPC/Currie Cup etc...

I would be very happy to see the NH adopt something similar.

It is in the interests of the PRL to serve their members, the 12 elite English clubs. Their objectives will always be to make the competition more profitable for their clubs and little else.

This is the main reason i do not think they are good people to base suggestions for the improvement of our league the RP12. Certainly reducing perfectly decent highly competitive Celtic or Italian teams at the expense of keeping English or French ones that are not so good would be unfair too.

Basing entrants on the amount of money brought to the table is reasonable though should definitely not be the sole reason and its justification. You have no European Competition if you do not have trans European sides competing.

Maybe the lower ranked English and French teams should have a pre tournament play off against the RP12 teams that didn't make the cut for a smaller competition.

Recwatcher wrote:They are not rested Hersh - they are rotated - so that they are all always fit for HC and 6N games.
English club players are rotated but somehow seem to get injured more and miss HC and 6N games - must just be soft and not as physically hard as R12 players......

Could it be that english clubs deliberately play their players into injuries during the Jeff, knowing that they can keep those elite players out of international Test matches while they recover, with the thought that they should be recovered by the time the Jeff starts back after those windows?

That would never happen would it? That english clubs looking out for their self interests, damage the national sides options making them less competitive on the world stage.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:They are not rested Hersh - they are rotated - so that they are all always fit for HC and 6N games.
English club players are rotated but somehow seem to get injured more and miss HC and 6N games - must just be soft and not as physically hard as R12 players......

Could it be that english clubs deliberately play their players into injuries during the Jeff, knowing that they can keep those elite players out of international Test matches while they recover, with the thought that they should be recovered by the time the Jeff starts back after those windows?

That would never happen would it? That english clubs looking out for their self interests, damage the national sides options making them less competitive on the world stage.

It's an interesting idea. However, given that some of the clubs' income comes from the money the RFU makes from TV rights, which are ultimately worth less if the England team aren't performing, ...

In response to the OP, I'd start from a view on the Pro 12;
- is a young league in the grand scheme of things
- provides to a large extent an open, freeflowing game
- has some great established players (both 6N internationals, but also imports such as Howlett, Nacewa, Muller, Afoa, etc.)
- using academy and youth players in the senior set up quite early in their development
- has moved from being a league without any sponsor and limited tv coverage only a short while ago to sponsored league with good levels of televised games

What does it need to do to improve?
- improve attendances at games
- increase media coverage
- increase sponsorship/merchandise/revenues
- improve fan experiences at matches
- inter-country niggle/spice. The irish derbies really get the attention, but then outside of Edinburgh/Ospreys/and to an extent Scarlets, the other games don't have the history/niggle/spice to spark media and peoples interest to that next level.

Now how do we improve these areas?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:They are not rested Hersh - they are rotated - so that they are all always fit for HC and 6N games.
English club players are rotated but somehow seem to get injured more and miss HC and 6N games - must just be soft and not as physically hard as R12 players......

Could it be that english clubs deliberately play their players into injuries during the Jeff, knowing that they can keep those elite players out of international Test matches while they recover, with the thought that they should be recovered by the time the Jeff starts back after those windows?

That would never happen would it? That english clubs looking out for their self interests, damage the national sides options making them less competitive on the world stage.

It's an interesting idea. However, given that some of the clubs' income comes from the money the RFU makes from TV rights, which are ultimately worth less if the England team aren't performing, ...

But if more of their money comes from their Jeff games than their allocation from the RFU pot, along with the threat of relegation that is always talked about, it doesn't take much thinking before it isn't too crazy an idea.

maestegmafia wrote:I think the competition should be shorter. It would suit all of us to have a smaller more competitive HEC. I think the SH model is so much more sensible, where different levels of rugby are played on block, S15, International and NPC/Currie Cup etc...

I would be very happy to see the NH adopt something similar.

It is in the interests of the PRL to serve their members, the 12 elite English clubs. Their objectives will always be to make the competition more profitable for their clubs and little else.

This is the main reason i do not think they are good people to base suggestions for the improvement of our league the RP12. Certainly reducing perfectly decent highly competitive Celtic or Italian teams at the expense of keeping English or French ones that are not so good would be unfair too.

Basing entrants on the amount of money brought to the table is reasonable though should definitely not be the sole reason and its justification. You have no European Competition if you do not have trans European sides competing.

Maybe the lower ranked English and French teams should have a pre tournament play off against the RP12 teams that didn't make the cut for a smaller competition.

Some nice words there Maes.

So a 20 team HEC with the bottom 4 spaces filled from a pre-tournament playoff, the top 14 filled with 4 French, 4 English and 6 Rabo (call it 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian), including the previous year's HEC winner?

beshocked wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Like many you prefer style over substance. Can't say I blame you but then again I wouldn't enjoy seeing my side getting smashed by sides I would expect to beat.

Do you take glee when your defence is cut to pieces like a knife through hot butter? Saracens are boring indeed but they are tough, gritty and rarely allow their pants to be pulled down by the opposition. I like that about them. I take pride in my club side because they have a consistent mental toughness which many Pro12 should hope to aspire to. Very rarely do sides beat Saracens by more than 7.

Isn't that a bit like "Yes my wife is a ming bag, but boy she can cook"

Interpret it however you want. Personally I prefer a mentally tougher boring side over a mentally fragile exciting side. More wins. More chances at trophies.

It's nice to be both exciting and mentally tough but not every side has got that. Few sides can sustain both.

In regards to the Pro12 - to get better - more needs to be at stake. This means HC qualification. Less resting of players for HC.

Jenifer you're barking up the wrong tree here. What Beshocked is saying is that not only should the Rabo teams disadvantage themselves by entering less teams in europe, they should disadvantage themselves further by playing boring, try-less, saracenesque type rugby. A brand of rugby that always crumbles against the big boys like Leinster and Clermont.

Now can you go home to Dublin, tell your team to aspire to Sarries and then be able to sleep at night?

Why are people who are not followers of Rabo teams telling us the rabo needs to be improved? its simply does not. Its a fine league.

I think in future it could expand to a two division league but there are not he teams out there to do so right now

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Recwatcher wrote:They are not rested Hersh - they are rotated - so that they are all always fit for HC and 6N games.
English club players are rotated but somehow seem to get injured more and miss HC and 6N games - must just be soft and not as physically hard as R12 players......

Could it be that english clubs deliberately play their players into injuries during the Jeff, knowing that they can keep those elite players out of international Test matches while they recover, with the thought that they should be recovered by the time the Jeff starts back after those windows?

That would never happen would it? That english clubs looking out for their self interests, damage the national sides options making them less competitive on the world stage.

It's an interesting idea. However, given that some of the clubs' income comes from the money the RFU makes from TV rights, which are ultimately worth less if the England team aren't performing, ...

But if more of their money comes from their Jeff games than their allocation from the RFU pot, along with the threat of relegation that is always talked about, it doesn't take much thinking before it isn't too crazy an idea.

True. Though it's rather tough to pre-determine quite how injured a player will get. And the clubs would still have to pay backups regardless of whether the top guys are off with England or off injured.

We do already see players making themselves unavailable for second tier nations at times because their clubs make it clear that playing international impacts their future employment prospects.

There is just too much rugby. The current schedule already demands fitting a quart into a pint pot. I agree that the season should be structured more along the lines of the SH.

A club season and European competition could be interspersed from September to mid-May with 6Ns (H&A) played in conferences ((Ir, Sco, Wa) and (En, Fr, It))? with 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 H/A double-headers in the final fortnight.

Trouble is that all leagues would have to be cut to eight teams to give top players a break.

Bandwagon good post mate... very good points there.

One I'll pick up on is

The inter Regional/provincial matches are great but the big teams like munster, Leinster, Ulster who have recently done well in Europe attract a hell of a lot of attention from fans, swelling attendances too.

This i see as a very positive sign in Wales. It may not have caught on so much in Ireland, Scotland or Italy when we come to visit, we haven't won an HEC, yet! But Ospreys almost had a clean sweep of the Irish last season and Scarlets will be out for revenge after Munster dumped them out of Europe last year. Their matches will be pretty bloody affaires.

Rivalry needs history. We are rapidly building history.

greytiger wrote:There is just too much rugby. The current schedule already demands fitting a quart into a pint pot. I agree that the season should be structured more along the lines of the SH.

A club season and European competition could be interspersed from September to mid-May with 6Ns (H&A) played in conferences ((Ir, Sco, Wa) and (En, Fr, It))? with 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 H/A double-headers in the final fortnight.

Trouble is that all leagues would have to be cut to eight teams to give top players a break.

Why not play HEC first, then domestic and international after?

Recwatcher wrote:Biltong, you have had the R12 side of the debate, ably articulated by stag and others.

The other side of the coin is that the french and english clubs made a strategic mistake a decade ago to allow Union franchises to enter a club competition. That was always eventually going to be incompatible because fewer centralised teams with elite players with Test experience will potentially (not always) outmuscle smaller privately owned clubs. In this particular scenario the clubs however have the advantage of larger tv audiences.

On the old 606 there were numerous debates about the RFU wanting to enter fewer representative sides into a Euro competition and at the time the clubs won because they had the player contracts and need the euro tv coin. Wales and Scotland were allowed to bar their historic clubs from entering on the basis that the country couldn't afford professional teams. The reality was that the Unions could not and did not want to relinquish control to private individuals/corporates.

You asked on another post whether rugby should by logic follow the Aussie cricket model with centralised control and limited access for players and fans alike.

Rugby in England and France has moved on commercially from a decade ago where their domestic leagues are generating ever larger crowds and tv contracts and the BT contract is an ominous sign for the R12 Unions and they know it and have kept quiet waiting to see the numbers.

Perhaps the french and English should just enter 3 teams each into a euro competition and see how much the broadcasters will pay for it. They will always take the deal but no longer need the euro money as the real money is in their domestic leagues. The euro competition can then scrap all pretence at being a club competition and be Test trials comp like the S15 and in part you can have your Aussie cricket model.

That sounds like a solution, but why only three, do they not want six teams each?

Basically The HEC is the greater competition. To start a club season with the bigger cup doesn't make sense. National league, Euro league, Euro Internationals. Level by level.