Paul Ackford says "The best two teams in the world at the moment? No debate. New Zealand and Leinster. The rest are playing catch-up..."!

by maestegmafia Wed 3 Oct 2012 - 21:19

First topic message reminder :

By Paul Ackford

The reason is simple. Both outfits are set up to play, which sounds simple, but isn’t. It requires intention, fitness, understanding, organisation, unbelievably high skill sets across the entire squad, a positive attitude to risk, and courage. It also assumes a commitment to be multidimensional in approach rather than the one-trick pony nonsense which some teams get by on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9576371/England-must-look-to-the-flair-players-if-they-want-to-mix-it-with-the-All-Blacks-at-rugbys-top-table.html

by asoreleftshoulder Sat 6 Oct 2012 - 14:52

anotherworldofpain wrote:
blackcanelion wrote:The S15 teams aren't as defensively sound as Leinster? Perhaps NH club sides aren't as effective attackers. We're probably never going to know. What we do know ias that the AB's are generally more effective at scoring and defending against tries than their northern counterparts. The world 3 top sides have 5 teams each competing in a competition, which presumably is strong. The heinekin cup is made up of provincial teams from nations traditionally ranked 6-12, and the top club sides (from large competitions) from teams often ranked 4 and 5. Even with ex pat players it's hard to argue, from a logic anyway, that a heinekin cup side is better than a super 15 side.

(I do think that the Heinekin cup will overtake the Super 15 at some point. if this happens it may be a tipping point that drags SH players north and makes it difficult for the SH club competition to recover).

I think the NH fans get impressed by watching Leinster, which is essentially Ireland bolstered by some retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players. Of course they are impressed because they are bolstered by these SH players, so they play actually better than Ireland.

By contrast, when the Leinster players go to Ireland and play, for example NZ, they get pasted by 60 points.

Fans in the NH tend to say "Why can't the Leinster guys play as well for Ireland as they play for Leinster", but they miss the point that Leinster are really competing at a much lower level.

In the SXV Leinster would finish near the bottom of their conference.

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 6 Oct 2012 - 15:08

Awop you are a strange person, with some strange views on rugby.

by anotherworldofpain Sat 6 Oct 2012 - 15:12

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Awop you are a strange person, with some strange views on rugby.

This from a man with the name "LeinsterFan4Life". I'm sure we all value your impartial disintereseted and objective opinion in this debate... thumbsup

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 6 Oct 2012 - 15:18

anotherworldofpain wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Awop you are a strange person, with some strange views on rugby.

This from a man with the name "LeinsterFan4Life". I'm sure we all value your impartial disintereseted and objective opinion in this debate...

I see your english has once again managed to improve again thumbsup

strange how that just keeps hapening.

by Pot Hale Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 17:40

anotherworldofpain wrote:

I think the NH fans get impressed by watching Leinster, which is essentially Ireland bolstered by some retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players. Of course they are impressed because they are bolstered by these SH players, so they play actually better than Ireland.

In the SXV Leinster would finish near the bottom of their conference.

Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?

by anotherworldofpain Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 17:46

Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?

Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

by SecretFly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 17:53

Are not many sides in Europe bolstered by a few (and often more than a few!!) SH players?

Hardly the smoking gun evidence it's claimed to be. Do try again.

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 17:54

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Who is Isa not good enough for? Also brad thorn is set to sign for the highlanders so he is still obviously a great player.

by anotherworldofpain Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:17

SecretFly wrote:Are not many sides in Europe bolstered by a few (and often more than a few!!) SH players?

Hardly the smoking gun evidence it's claimed to be. Do try again.

Mate if concrete evidence of exactly what I'm talking about doesn't do it for you, then there's not much more I can say, you are too firmly in denial.

It's not the point if ALL of the NH clubs indulge in the activity, the point is surely that they DO. Which is what I said, and the previous poster tried to deny with the rather curiously self destructive set-up question.

When Leinster are rugby world champions and just completely a clean sweep of SA home and away, AUS home and away and ARG home and away, then by all means write your articles about how they are one of the top two teams in the world, until then: shhhhhhh. thumbsup

by anotherworldofpain Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:19

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Who is Isa not good enough for? Also brad thorn is set to sign for the highlanders so he is still obviously a great player.

Brad is a retired All Black and Isa was not good enough for AB selection, hence the move to Fiji, then to the NH...

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:25

anotherworldofpain wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Who is Isa not good enough for? Also brad thorn is set to sign for the highlanders so he is still obviously a great player.

Brad is a retired All Black and Isa was not good enough for AB selection, hence the move to Fiji, then to the NH...

Isa may not be good enough for the ABs but he would make any other international team easily. Are you saying that if your not on the AB team, your not a good player?

by Pot Hale Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:28

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Yes. Given Brad Thorn was only involved with Leinster for a coupe of months, he was hardly a mainstay of the side. So who else?
How do you know that Isa Nacewa was not good enough? His record with Auckland between 2003-2007 was very successful. He was Player of the Tournament in his final season and won the Air New Zealand Cup for the third time before moving to Leinster.

Why would you think that a team - essentially Ireland bolstered by former SANZAR players to use your description - would come bottom of a conference below teams such as the Blues, Highlanders, Rebels, Force, Tahs, Lions, Cheetahs, Brumbies, Hurricanes? Where's the evidence for such an assertion?

by SecretFly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:40

anotherworldofpain wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Are not many sides in Europe bolstered by a few (and often more than a few!!) SH players?

Hardly the smoking gun evidence it's claimed to be. Do try again.

Mate if concrete evidence of exactly what I'm talking about doesn't do it for you, then there's not much more I can say, you are too firmly in denial.

It's not the point if ALL of the NH clubs indulge in the activity, the point is surely that they DO. Which is what I said, and the previous poster tried to deny with the rather curiously self destructive set-up question.

When Leinster are rugby world champions and just completely a clean sweep of SA home and away, AUS home and away and ARG home and away, then by all means write your articles about how they are one of the top two teams in the world, until then: shhhhhhh.

Nice bluster but it doesn't answer the simple question put to you, mate. You say all of Europe likes looking at Leinster do it's thing..and god love them, why wouldn't they, Europe has nothing special to offer and the only side offering anything is bolstered by a few SH has-beens. So far so cute.

I'm saying in that regard they use less of the SH has-beens than other European sides So - how do you explain that Europe oohs and aahs the side with less SHers than other Euro sides? ...and how come those sides don't knock the bejaysus out of Leinster with their bigger tally of SH has-been bloodlines?

You don't have an answer - all you have is your bias - just like me Wink

Only at least I admit mine. Where do you come from again? You never do quite get around to that one, do you.

by eirebilly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:49

As much as i hate to admit this, Leinster is the most exciting club team in Europe. I think that they would do very well in the SH tournements.

by SecretFly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:55

Don't jinx us Billy...we're not looking too bright at the moment!

We're wating tentatively for our next big SH has-been to get on the phone to us and enquire about whether we want their guidance in getting another HC. It's getting close and still nobody is on the phone. McCaw??? - Call us!

by eirebilly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 18:59

Dont tell Gibbo that i have respect for Leinster Wink

Any news on the injuries from last night?

by disneychilly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 19:49

Sorry Fly as we've seen all year McCaw's a SH still going

by disneychilly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 19:53

Pot Hale wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Yes. Given Brad Thorn was only involved with Leinster for a coupe of months, he was hardly a mainstay of the side. So who else?
How do you know that Isa Nacewa was not good enough? His record with Auckland between 2003-2007 was very successful. He was Player of the Tournament in his final season and won the Air New Zealand Cup for the third time before moving to Leinster.

Why would you think that a team - essentially Ireland bolstered by former SANZAR players to use your description - would come bottom of a conference below teams such as the Blues, Highlanders, Rebels, Force, Tahs, Lions, Cheetahs, Brumbies, Hurricanes? Where's the evidence for such an assertion?

I agree with Pot here-reckon Leinster could definitely make the semis, if not better. Think the Stormers and Crusaders would have their measure though, and they could get caught cold against sides like the Cheetahs and my beloved Hurricanes early due to not being used to their pace.

by SecretFly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 19:54

Yeah I know, disney, I'm only toying with Pain's perceptions of what comes to us here in the north.

Besides, he's (McCaw) on a break now, isn't he. You never know where he might appear early next year for a month or two......

by disneychilly Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 20:01

LOL I can imagine McCaw getting called up to play when he's in the Bahamas or whatever yelling out like Ross in Friends 'I WAS ON A BREEEEAAAAAAK!'

I doubt the guy will ever play club stuff outside NZ. May as well rule it out now. He's got his own legacy and I think he'd lack the motivation away from the ABs.

Work away on AWOP tho Wink

by Pot Hale Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 21:35

disneychilly wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Yes. Given Brad Thorn was only involved with Leinster for a coupe of months, he was hardly a mainstay of the side. So who else?
How do you know that Isa Nacewa was not good enough? His record with Auckland between 2003-2007 was very successful. He was Player of the Tournament in his final season and won the Air New Zealand Cup for the third time before moving to Leinster.

Why would you think that a team - essentially Ireland bolstered by former SANZAR players to use your description - would come bottom of a conference below teams such as the Blues, Highlanders, Rebels, Force, Tahs, Lions, Cheetahs, Brumbies, Hurricanes? Where's the evidence for such an assertion?

I agree with Pot here-reckon Leinster could definitely make the semis, if not better. Think the Stormers and Crusaders would have their measure though, and they could get caught cold against sides like the Cheetahs and my beloved Hurricanes early due to not being used to their pace.

Indeed, chilly. Whilst I wouldn't make dead-cert assertions about reaching finals stage, any serious rugby watcher would know the callowness of some of the sides in the S15. Anyway, let's not waste further time on the matter.

by Hound_of_Harrow Sun 7 Oct 2012 - 22:38

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
Who are these retired or not quite good enough SANZAR players that they are bolstered by?

Well off the top of my head, and one example of each

Not good enough: Isa Nacewa
Retired : Brad Thorn

What conference in the S15 would Leinster come bottom of?
Which ever conference they played in.

Any more questions?

Who is Isa not good enough for? Also brad thorn is set to sign for the highlanders so he is still obviously a great player.

Brad is a retired All Black and Isa was not good enough for AB selection, hence the move to Fiji, then to the NH...
Isa may not be good enough for the ABs but he would make any other international team easily. Are you saying that if your not on the AB team, your not a good player?

I'm surprised it took so long to figure this guy out. He started out with the poor english language postings as a smokescreen, but is the same NZer who hates all rugby nations outside NZ, and especially us in the NH.

This is his third moniker on v2 and his sudden coherent english postings, when anything may tarnish the omnipotence of his All Blacks (i.e. a comparison with a NH team - heaven forfend), gives the game away all too easily.

by Pot Hale Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 0:48

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

I'm surprised it took so long to figure this guy out. He started out with the poor english language postings as a smokescreen, but is the same NZer who hates all rugby nations outside NZ, and especially us in the NH.

This is his third moniker on v2 and his sudden coherent english postings, when anything may tarnish the omnipotence of his All Blacks (i.e. a comparison with a NH team - heaven forfend), gives the game away all too easily.

Well I don't know if hate is the right word, but the point is that the article in question doesn't compare the two with each other; it's their style of play is compared to other teams at test level and club level. I wasn't aware of the multiple identities but if that's the case, then there's an easy solution.

by mystiroakey Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 6:41

I think we all new from day 1 hound....

by anotherworldofpain Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 9:33

The point is that it is just as possible to assert they would come last in a conference as to suggest they are the best club in the world.

Th ABs by contrast regularly actually deliver. We hear so much bluster from the north about their chances and it never pans out real so a far as I'm concerned this kind of article is just a slightly safer way of tub thumping without ever having to walk the walk...

by nganboy Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 9:48

I don't know why you guys go on so much. These arguements are pointless and winless.
The part I do disagree about is how it seems so many NH fans regularly pan SH rugby for its lack of forward grunt and defence. This I find really annoying because I don't think that it is at all true. It's simply that we also have a lot of focus on back play attack.

by mystiroakey Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 11:03

So AWOP is that an NH mindset issue- or just very typical for the also ran teams of sport!!

I will explain. It is the later- You need to stop trying to make out it isnt. Kiwis in other sports are no different..

by nganboy Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 11:13

Be fair oakey. We Kiwis never gave ourselves a chance at the 20/20. On our day we can't beat the Windies right now.

by mystiroakey Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 11:20

We all have fans of all types- its really that simple. There are just more of us english- We can seem louder through sheer numbers

by SecretFly Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 11:41

The All Blacks are but one of a select bunch of SH sides? Yes? Or do they represent all SH sides when they play?

Another AB win means "Hey Hey!!!! That's another one for the Southern hemisphere boys, y'all!" ?

Is that how it is? SH v NH is bull that I only really ever listen to when I get here. Outside this boiling pot of rugby intensity, I don't hear nearly as much of it.

It's crud. Do I holler with delight if France beat Australia? Hmmmm.... you'd be a fool if you thought so. Do I go crazy if England get one up on New Zealand? Hardly.

But all you Southern folk stick closely together like good kin folk should when it comes to SH sides meeting NH ones? Yeah.... I'll pretend I believe it.

Forget the NH v SH bull and talk about the subject... the similarities or lack thereof between a particular Provincial/club side and a particular National side. Nothing north or south has to be mentioned.

by **rodders** Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 12:52

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery fly Wink

.

by SecretFly Mon 8 Oct 2012 - 13:07

Lack thereof for you Rodders. Duely noted Wink

Now we're finally getting some order into this here debate.

by anotherworldofpain Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 0:33

SecretFly wrote:The All Blacks are but one of a select bunch of SH sides? Yes? Or do they represent all SH sides when they play?

Another AB win means "Hey Hey!!!! That's another one for the Southern hemisphere boys, y'all!" ?

Is that how it is? SH v NH is bull that I only really ever listen to when I get here. Outside this boiling pot of rugby intensity, I don't hear nearly as much of it.

It's crud. Do I holler with delight if France beat Australia? Hmmmm.... you'd be a fool if you thought so. Do I go crazy if England get one up on New Zealand? Hardly.

But all you Southern folk stick closely together like good kin folk should when it comes to SH sides meeting NH ones?

Well, I'm completely neutral and just a fan of the game SF, so don't get so upset. I'm merely commenting objectively on a trend I observe.

Ask youself this, when England were #1 IRB ranked team and won the RWC, did the NZ Herald publish an article called:

England and Auckland are the best two teams in the world, every one else is playing catch up!

by nganboy Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 0:41

Actually I never really thought about a hemisphere debate until I joined 606 about 2 years ago. Before then it was NZ vs the rest of the world and then the quality of the rugby after that.

by Pot Hale Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 2:30

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Well, I'm completely neutral and just a fan of the game SF, so don't get so upset. I'm merely commenting objectively on a trend I observe.

Ask youself this, when England were #1 IRB ranked team and won the RWC, did the NZ Herald publish an article called:

England and Auckland are the best two teams in the world, every one else is playing catch up!

Why would they? NZ media would never willingly admit any team was the best in the world if they weren't from New Zealand. Goes with the culture. If you're not from there, that may be hard to understand. Mind you, you could read Wynne Gray some days and it would be possible to believe rugby doesn't happen outside New Zealand, so I wouldn't take what one journalist says to heart too much, you'll only upset yourself.

by Gibson Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 5:27

We could take de Keeewees at the RDS. Full XV v Full XV. And no Sheilas.

Munster beat a 3rd-string Keewee side back in 78. Still goin on abaht it. Bless em. They don' t get out much these days.

But, Id love to shut them up forever by beating a real Keewee side.

Nearly did in the 2nd Test down in their shop. 11 Leinster players ignored Kidney and took them on. So close.

Next one, not so close. Too many Munster players. 1 was it?

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 8:47

Pot Hale wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:

Well, I'm completely neutral and just a fan of the game SF, so don't get so upset. I'm merely commenting objectively on a trend I observe.

Ask youself this, when England were #1 IRB ranked team and won the RWC, did the NZ Herald publish an article called:

England and Auckland are the best two teams in the world, every one else is playing catch up!

Why would they? NZ media would never willingly admit any team was the best in the world if they weren't from New Zealand. Goes with the culture. If you're not from there, that may be hard to understand. Mind you, you could read Wynne Gray some days and it would be possible to believe rugby doesn't happen outside New Zealand, so I wouldn't take what one journalist says to heart too much, you'll only upset yourself.

Pot Hale , I think you have a very poor appreciation as to how qualified and discerning us Kiwis (and especially Aucklanders) are when it comes to rugby, Wynn Gray is only one of eighteen rugby writers for the Herald, most of the time you will find that many of those writers disagree amongst themselves on many rugby related points which not only makes the paper transparent in its rugby articles but also thought provoking, there are times when I also cringe when I read Wynn's pieces in isolation, but I know that in terms of rugby news worthiness he is making his contribution in terms of the bigger picture.

by anotherworldofpain Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 10:23

Exactly. The NZ rugby media is rarely full of such unqualified, unjustifiable and obviously delusional, self aggrandising hyperbole as the kind of tosh that this thread is concerned with.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 10:31

Probably Wynne's biggest contribution to rugby journalism is that he has the ear of a bloke called graham Henry, maybe a point that Pot Hale over looks?
Or to put it another way maybe rugby jounos that have access to guys like Sir Ted do make a big contribution to our sport.

by SecretFly Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 10:35

Neutral and Objective, pain???

You've sprung a leak in those two words a long long time ago, I'm afraid. Wink

You're near empty.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 10:47

Secret fly

But do you not grasp the point that my associate AWOP makes?

by SecretFly Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 10:54

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Secret fly

But do you not grasp the point that my associate AWOP makes?

Explain it for me...your way laurie. I might bow to AWOPs point if you explain it to me.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 11:05

Fly
Wynne is always objective, not always right from a rugby knowledge point of view but definitely objective.but rugby knowledge comes from many tangents or levels in the New Zealand media. and my friend AWOP was trying to make this point to you.

Its like reading the finance/business sections of the London Times, some scribes may be experts in equities and others may be experts in finance, but they all contribute via their specialist standpoints to a bigger economic science.

by GunsGerms Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 11:10

anotherworldofpain wrote:Exactly. The NZ rugby media is rarely full of such unqualified, unjustifiable and obviously delusional, self aggrandising hyperbole as the kind of tosh that this thread is concerned with.

Can't say I agree with you. NZ rugby journalism is generally very very poor. It seems to be mostly tabloid based and very Kiwi or Anglo centric with apparently very limited view or understanding of anything else. I found the Kiwi radio coverage of the '11 world cup however to be quite good but again the knowledge of anything outside of the Kiwisphere was predictably very limited.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 11:19

Guns and grms
Sure our journalists whether written or electronic may not be rugby geography experts but are you saying that rugby journalism is knowledge defficient when it comes to rugby ?

If you are then I'm willing to dicuss that contention.

by GunsGerms Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 11:28

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Guns and grms
Sure our journalists whether written or electronic may not be rugby geography experts but are you saying that rugby journalism is knowledge defficient when it comes to rugby ?

If you are then I'm willing to dicuss that contention.

My experience of Kiwi rugby journalism is that it is sensationalist and largly tabloid based with little knowledge of any rugby outside of the Kiwi rugby sphere which tends to encompass NZ,AUS,SA,England and very little else.

by SecretFly Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 11:32

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Fly
Wynne is always objective, not always right from a rugby knowledge point of view but definitely objective.but rugby knowledge comes from many tangents or levels in the New Zealand media. and my friend AWOP was trying to make this point to you.

Its like reading the finance/business sections of the London Times, some scribes may be experts in equities and others may be experts in finance, but they all contribute via their specialist standpoints to a bigger economic science.

Well firstly laurie, pain wasn't making any specific points to me about Wynne and his style. He might have been having arguments with others on the topic and using his postings to me to include them...but talking directly to me about any NZ journalist in conversation - no.

His points specifically to me were based on the little waspish point that Europe praises Leinster (overly so in his opinion - and it's allowed that he has one; we all do) because they have little else to praise on the club front. So Europe (and Ackford) praise their not-so-great white hope and compare the side with the great ABs to in some way claim an equality of - quality - where in reality there is none (again - pain's personal opinion, and he's allowed it) He goes on though to say the only reason Leinster are linked to ABs in ability is because of the presence of a few has-been SHers propping their ability up.

That's pain's continuing point to me. I disregard his journalistic points to others...it was his points to me I deal with.

Now if you were to go back through this thread, you'd see where I try to unearth his curious logic about the SH element hoisting up Leinster's skirts. But he can't quite get around to explaining his logic...because it doesn't exist.

Finally, Ackford is an English journalist, writing for an English paper. I'd neither defend him or care very much what he says. Just like I wouldn't be overly concerned what a New Zealand, a French or an Australian journalist says. I don't have to defend Ackford because he's not speaking for me - he's speaking for himself and from the perspective of his country. I'm Irish. You're a New Zealander. You're not South African. I'm not English. I'll defend only what's mine and Leinster isn't an English side... it's an Irish one.

The SH v NH fight, that pain constantly wants to perpetuate, doesn't wash with me. He can continue to jab with his SH bias but I'll continue to tell him that's not being neutral and it's not being objective. It's a bias.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 11:38

But is that a bad thing.

Rugby Journalism in New Zealand is meeting a local market of rugby readership/viewership where the consumers know as much about the commodity as those who are writing about it, hence we have the situation that a publication ie The New Zealand Herald has many rugby journalists and contributors on board, why should they all be experts on the Heineken cup for example when they also have contributors like Craig Dowd who has as much experience and nowledge in that compeition as anyone? Worldwide.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 12:01

Fly
Yes I see your point in so far as Ackford is entitled to raise a point to stimulate dicusssion, sure and I dont think you need me to tell you that we have to agree with ALL aspects and content of his feature, but I would like to see more Detail from someone like Ackford who I do have some respect for, and I feel he lets himself down in that area on this piece.

For anyone to go into the realm of comparing any club team to the All Blacks is folly, and I think thats what AWOP is getting at, I see his point, not because I'm a Kiwi but because I see the ABs playing on a higher plane than the Heineken Cup ( but please dont try and turn that comment into me saying that the Heineken cup and Leinster are rubbish...I'm not.. Leinster can only play whose put in front of them) and I know from close experience that they have men on the staff there that are as good as anybody on the planet.

Bottom line I have no purpose or reason to critical of Leinster, but I see AWOPs point that journos shoulnt compare teams like Leinster to teams like the All Blacks in the context that Ackford did, but no one died.

by anotherworldofpain Tue 9 Oct 2012 - 12:12

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Fly
Yes I see your point in so far as Ackford is entitled to raise a point to stimulate dicusssion, sure and I dont think you need me to tell you that we have to agree with ALL aspects and content of his feature, but I would like to see more Detail from someone like Ackford who I do have some respect for, and I feel he lets himself down in that area on this piece.

For anyone to go into the realm of comparing any club team to the All Blacks is folly, and I think thats what AWOP is getting at, I see his point, not because I'm a Kiwi but because I see the ABs playing on a higher plane than the Heineken Cup ( but please dont try and turn that comment into me saying that the Heineken cup and Leinster are rubbish...I'm not.. Leinster can only play whose put in front of them) and I know from close experience that they have men on the staff there that are as good as anybody on the planet.

Bottom line I have no purpose or reason to critical of Leinster, but I see AWOPs point that journos shoulnt compare teams like Leinster to teams like the All Blacks in the context that Ackford did, but no one died.

But Common sense and logic were apparently mortally wounded.

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